Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DwarfPcfan 07-30-07, 06:37 PM	While finishing my shift at work the other day, a thought came to my mind, namely the subject of high LA/Power races and playing them. While my thoughts first gravitated to how certain LA are unfair (as could be expected). What surprised me was on issue of logical role-playing perspective. Playing a certain races means wanting to play that races flavor right ?;) So how can you play an illithid with the current ECL system? Even an expanded psionic's handbook illithid (with instead 9 natural psion levels) will only manifest as 14 level psion by 20 ECL (ECL15 without class levels, 9 natural manifester levels+5 by gaining levels= at ECL 20 manifester level 13). How is that really playing an illithid? When you want to play an illithid, what do you want to play? You don't want to play a squid headed 14th level psion with better ability scores a few racial traits and spell resistance. What do you really want to play. You want to play an inscrutable alien race with sinister motives, intelligence beyond human comprehension and unsurpassed psionic ability. Now how is that possible if the race, using the current system, will always be inferior to any LA+0 race at psionics. Similarly what do you really want to play when you play an Efreeti. You want to play a spirit of smokeless fire with legendary mystical powers, great intelligence, etc. How is that possible when any normal character will be able to accomplish anything better then the Efreet ever could (Especially since Effreet have an ECL of 19). So there lies my beef. Not exatly stats, well... partially, but more importantly flavor and role-playing logic. High ECL races can never be player character if you really want to play that race's flavor, style, concept. Why? because as player characters what abilities they have will rob then of what they're supposed to be, their very identity. Effectively they will be so weak that no player will ever be able to actually play a member of the race both from flavor and mechanics. Whe need a better ECL system because high ECL races cannot! be played realistically. Even if you're technically an illithid on you're charater sheet at ECl 16 (ECL 15+1 psion level). That fact that you're such a weak psionicist and character in general means that you are not really playing an illithid psion. You're really playing a watered down squid headed psion 9 at ECL 16. This spites me. Djinn, illithids and other exotic races could offer so much intense role-playing is they could actually be played by their flavor, mystique, whatever. But instead we find ourselves with exotic racial options simply impossible because our beloved game prevents us from finding common ground between good role-playing and game balance. Am I the only one who agrees to this? Am I just a crazy person rambling about? What are your thoughts on the subject?
Morwen 07-30-07, 06:46 PM	Your argument makes a lot of sense. However, in order to accomplish what you want, you'd have to, somehow, cause each of the races in question to have a +0 LA (or +0 on top of their innate spellcasting/manifesting level). And to do that, you'd basically have to create watered-down versions of the races (which might also be problematic). Perhaps if each race got abilities that accumulate with time? Kind of similar to savage progressions, although instead of using racial hit dice and level adjustment, the abilities would come alongside your class levels. It would be difficult to balance properly though.
Vharuck 07-30-07, 06:49 PM	Why can't you advance an illithid to a 20th level psion? It may be an epic game, but it's not impossible.
DwarfPcfan 07-30-07, 08:14 PM	Why can't you advance an illithid to a 20th level psion? It may be an epic game, but it's not impossible. There's nothing actually stopping you from advancing an illithid to Psion 20. But that's an ECL 35 (ECL15+20 psion levels). Even worse, you're illithid manifests as only as a 29th level psion. There again there's no rhyme or logic. A 35th level human psion is a much better psion that an illithid psion 20. Also realistically, how many games start at 35th leve:confused: !!! My point is that on every angle, there's no real way to actually play a races flavor and style. You're always stuck with the problem of playing a squid headed psion 14 at ECL20 rather then actually playing what it really means to be an illithid. Anymore thoughts on the matter? Till next time:D ...
koiulpoi 07-30-07, 08:21 PM	The idea of Savage Progressions (from Savage Species) is a great one to, in a way, solve this problem. However, unless you let players stop taking the race and take class levels instead, it doesn't solve the problem either. It can also have the problem of going too far in the other direction - if you're a squidhead at LA +0, are you really a mind flayer?
IdleAltruism 07-30-07, 08:53 PM	I've run the psionic variant mindflayer. It worked really well actually, started at 18th level so he had a manifester level of 12. Sure he wasn't an 18th level psion but mindblast is fun. Compared to a full caster most things don't look as powerful, the mindflayers abilities are potent but can be countered easily. Races like these don't fit well in the average party and it takes some prep to run them. A DC 25+ mindblast that stuns 3d4 rounds can be really handy when fighting alot of monsters(things with low will saves, like giants) If my players come to me and ask to play x(lets say mind flayer) I will design a campaign for mind flayers. In campaigns like this I don't allow LA+0 everyone has to be around the same power level. So if the players wanted to play in a mindflayer campaign I would allow something like drow with an additional +2-4 LA(maybe half fiend or dragon). A vampire would work well in this situation. Things that tie in thematically and fit about the same power level. The first time I ran a vampire in my game my players and I were very disapointed at how far it fell behind in power. So the next time I ran one, everyone was a vampire. It was a good campaign, everyone had relatively weak abilities for what their levels were but they weren't competing against other players. They were all the same power level and it was kind of like running a super 10th level campaign, all the abilities of 10th level characters+ being a vampire on top of it. Its a balancing act but it works if your players want to play these very powerful monsters without having to worry if their character is weak. Its not really a solution, but its how I deal with the few races my players have wanted to play but would normally be to weak.
runestar 07-30-07, 10:30 PM	I disagree with the OP's analysis to some extent. ECL simply represents how powerful a character is compared with the rest of the other PCs. Take the psionic mindflayer for example, With an ECL of 15 and manifestor lv9, that roughly works out to be LA+6. Ask yourself if you are willing to pay LA+6 for its stat bonuses, mindblast and other misc special abilities such as extract. The thing is not that you are weak, simply that you are weak compared to the foes you will typically face for your lv, that is the difference. A mindflayer with 5 lvs of psion might not necessarily be considered weak (if you compare it to the typical mindflayer), just that you rarely have the opportunity to lord your might over your foes as they will usually be at least as strong as you, if not stronger (once LA is factored in). In a way, I empathize with the OP, since I once shared similar sentiments. But realize that it is a necessarily evil to balance out powerful races. Just think of it this way - you are a smart student who used to be in a crap school. Thus, you were always the first in terms of results since you were easily the smartest of the lot (in game terms, see this as you having the same number of class lvs as the rest, but a powerful template with a high LA). But then you got transferred to a more senior school where all the students there are easily as smart as you, if not smarter. Thus, it is not that you are stupid, just that you are not the only smart one (see this as them having enough class lvs to have the same ECL as you). :)
Vharuck 07-30-07, 10:44 PM	Exactly, you may think of a mindflayer psion as a powerful thing, and it is. However, the LA and ECL system was designed so that, no matter your power level, you would be faced with challenging encounters. An ECL illithid telepath may only manifest as a 14th level psion, but he's better than a 14th level human psion. And he should be equal to a 20th level human psion.
koiulpoi 07-30-07, 11:29 PM	Should be, but probably isn't. Wizards themselves have admitted to "LA Inflation" to encourage players to play the standard races (2nd hand knowledge, btw, could be totally false). However, I find that high-LA creatures like that are, in general, weaker than a LA +0 race at the same level. If, perhaps, you removed the hitdice of many of the creatures but kept most of their special abilities, the LA would be worth it. Also, for low LA creatures, buyoff is an option.
DM Zoc 07-31-07, 12:10 AM	The problem isn't that an illithid with half a dozen levels in psion is necessarily weak, it's that you keep trying to force logic into the game structure. The whole LA/ECL vs. CR structure is designed for balance. It has virtually nothing to do with what "makes sense" in the world. Imagine that you have a small city. With 100 people in the city, say that 60 of them are level 1, 30 of them are level 2, 20 are level 3, and 10 are level 4. From what I recall, that's roughly the level distribution assumed in the DMG. Now let's say that the population is evenly split between mind flayers, drow, and humans. Who is going to be ruling this town? It's the mind flayers, because their mental strength is far superior and nobody can resist them. Even the lowliest level 1 commoner mind flayer can throw around fifth level powers and completely dominate any of the humans or even the drow. The only time that the mind flayer is not going to completely overpower everyone within sight is when he's hanging around people who are significantly more experienced than he is. And the only time that happens is when the DM says so, for game balance. If you want to play an alien being of unfathomable power, take your ECL 16 and go slaughter some kobolds (or convince your DM to let you run around with a party of level 1 characters).
Zebppir 07-31-07, 12:19 AM	While finishing my shift at work the other day, a thought came to my mind, namely the subject of high LA/Power races and playing them. While my thoughts first gravitated to how certain LA are unfair (as could be expected). What surprised me was on issue of logical role-playing perspective. Playing a certain races means wanting to play that races flavor right ?;) So how can you play an illithid with the current ECL system? Even an expanded psionic's handbook illithid (with instead 9 natural psion levels) will only manifest as 14 level psion by 20 ECL (ECL15 without class levels, 9 natural manifester levels+5 by gaining levels= at ECL 20 manifester level 13). How is that really playing an illithid? When you want to play an illithid, what do you want to play? You don't want to play a squid headed 14th level psion with better ability scores a few racial traits and spell resistance. What do you really want to play. You want to play an inscrutable alien race with sinister motives, intelligence beyond human comprehension and unsurpassed psionic ability. Now how is that possible if the race, using the current system, will always be inferior to any LA+0 race at psionics. Similarly what do you really want to play when you play an Efreeti. You want to play a spirit of smokeless fire with legendary mystical powers, great intelligence, etc. How is that possible when any normal character will be able to accomplish anything better then the Efreet ever could (Especially since Effreet have an ECL of 19). So there lies my beef. Not exatly stats, well... partially, but more importantly flavor and role-playing logic. High ECL races can never be player character if you really want to play that race's flavor, style, concept. Why? because as player characters what abilities they have will rob then of what they're supposed to be, their very identity. Effectively they will be so weak that no player will ever be able to actually play a member of the race both from flavor and mechanics. Whe need a better ECL system because high ECL races cannot! be played realistically. Even if you're technically an illithid on you're charater sheet at ECl 16 (ECL 15+1 psion level). That fact that you're such a weak psionicist and character in general means that you are not really playing an illithid psion. You're really playing a watered down squid headed psion 9 at ECL 16. This spites me. Djinn, illithids and other exotic races could offer so much intense role-playing is they could actually be played by their flavor, mystique, whatever. But instead we find ourselves with exotic racial options simply impossible because our beloved game prevents us from finding common ground between good role-playing and game balance. Am I the only one who agrees to this? Am I just a crazy person rambling about? What are your thoughts on the subject? do what I don't play/use ECL for example drow +2 a normal drow commoner is just as good a human commoner if the creature is powerful playtest it until you find the right level = play another character untill the party is at the same level then off your current one for the one you wanted to play on the first place helps to have a character tree:D besides ECL really stands for excessively cramps logic=ECL;)
runestar 07-31-07, 12:31 AM	Should be, but probably isn't. Wizards themselves have admitted to "LA Inflation" to encourage players to play the standard races (2nd hand knowledge, btw, could be totally false). LA inflation may or may not be a valid reason depending on the context. I do not deny that there exist more than a fair share of monsters whose LA all but makes them unplayable (ogre mage, satyr just to name a few), but I think the assumption here is that the ECL assigned is a fair one (and there are many monsters with a fair, albeit high ECL to boot, such as astral deva and ghaele) In the very least, the benefits a mindflayer psion5 gets outstrips those accrued to a psion14, and the former should thus be penalized accordingly, such that one is no more stronger or weaker than the other. Like it or not, there is no running away from the LA. You could debate over whether the LA+7 is fair or not, but that is another debate for another day.:)
Return of the Flumph 07-31-07, 01:19 AM	The simple answer to the unending LA controversy that keeps reincarnating itself: Houserule it. If you think an illithid is underpowered with an LA of +7, reduce it to +6 or +5 or whatever you determine to be balanced. People houserule everything else. This is no more complicated than turning and grapple rules.
runestar 07-31-07, 01:55 AM	The simple answer to the unending LA controversy that keeps reincarnating itself: Houserule it. Which brings me to my next gripe regarding dnd material. I personally feel that I am paying way too much for them to just be "rough guidelines". As a "system", the rules should in the very least be internally consistent and balanced, to provide a level playing field for everyone. While the DMG does encourage rule zero, it only goes to show just how flawed the current dnd system is, where the very rules intended to enforce game balance ends up being so pliable and subject to change on a whim. Just for once, I would like a set of rules I can trust and follow without worrying about any such problems cropping up, such as when a player might try to sneak up some munchkin build on me, or a certain mechanic being too strong or too weak, or a certain cr being way off and the like.:( End rant...:embarrass
koiulpoi 07-31-07, 02:09 AM	Which brings me to my next gripe regarding dnd material. I personally feel that I am paying way too much for them to just be "rough guidelines". As a "system", the rules should in the very least be internally consistent and balanced, to provide a level playing field for everyone. While the DMG does encourage rule zero, it only goes to show just how flawed the current dnd system is, where the very rules intended to enforce game balance ends up being so pliable and subject to change on a whim. Just for once, I would like a set of rules I can trust and follow without worrying about any such problems cropping up, such as when a player might try to sneak up some munchkin build on me, or a certain mechanic being too strong or too weak, or a certain cr being way off and the like.:( End rant...:embarrass While I find this to be true, I do find it to be far more internally consistent than other roleplaying systems I've tried. Namely, Rifts and Shadowrun. Great in-game systems, great backstorys and world layouts, but absolutely terrible character balance. Almost the opposite of D&D, where the campaign settings are completely separate from the rules.
DwarfPcfan 07-31-07, 03:50 PM	First off thank you everybody for your comments. I'll reply by person to better continue the discussion. Morwen: A nice idea, but unfortunetly, then game balance goes out the window because, high ECL races end up overpowered because they will have more powers the low ECL Races koiulpoi: But that does not solve the problem, because in the end, he offers no evidence on really being an illithid. As he will constantly be behind everybody else when he's getting his racial stats over 15 levels. Problem again, no actual evidence that illithids really are psionic masters... IdleAltruism: That works to some extent, but it still prevents role-playing interactions between players wanting to play high ECL races to their flavor interacting with other player character of normal races. There again there's no logic to the flavor. You're are outclassed in you're defining strenght. runestar: interesting analysis, the school idea. But then, from that point of view. You are outclassed by normal races, ergo, that player has no way to prove he is equal to other players since everybody can just shrug and squash him. I don't want to lord over the other players but a chance to show off that my own race is a race of psionicists.Simply an opportunity for simple equal measure. Take it this way " I might not excel at magery like you elfling, But inthe few years since my cerebremorphesis, My skill at the mental arts remains unmatched" See what I mean, actual balance. That character should not better in whole then the elf wizard but he should be able to show off that in their chosen area, psionics, they are true masters. In effect he's not stronger, he's equal, but when it comes to psionics, he's the better choice. Same as human's and dwarves make better warblades then gnomes or halflings but gnomes or halflings are better rogues, spellthieves, etc. Their equal but in their natural field the humans and dwarves excel much more. Yet the current system prevents that kind of logical balance because at ECL 20, the elf psion 20 is a better psion... DM Zoc: No question there, the illithids overpower the town. But that not how adventuring parties work. There, the additional experience of PCSprecisely are what shoul make it possible for the illithid to be played. It may have taken then longer to get there but now they are equal to the illithid who had to place fewer effort to reach the point where he is in the campaign. In game mechanics, he's still no better then the party (who aren't typical peasants anyway). in effect that illithid psion should not overpower that elf wizard15 but the elf wizards 15 should not overpower the illithid either. It's about everyone having equal opportunities. In the current system, high ECL races are don't have equal chances... Zebppir: But we should not have to do that to play these races... runestar: Again, but the current system penalizes this the other way around. Namely, the illithid psion5 is the weaker player. At level 20 they should be equal not better... Return of the Flumph: but like I said, the system should not force players to do this... runestar: totally agree there... koiulpoi: again totally agree...
Lindwyrm 07-31-07, 08:34 PM	The point is that the ECL system is not meant to indicate that you as a member of X race are automatically going to be as powerful in a given field as someone who has enough levels to cancel out your effective levels. It indicates how much more powerful you are than a baseline race with the same number of levels as you. In general you should end up equivalently powerful taking into account your stat adjustments, racial HD, special attacks and special qualities. Remember: the illithid can kill a person every other round if they're stunned - and look! They come with an area effect stunning attack! Overall, your illithid should have an extra +8 Int over other characters, which is only part of their vastly increased stat line. And really, Efreet with their innate wishes that they can only use at their discretion for another creature are really quite useful... ...even for their ECL.
Erato 07-31-07, 08:45 PM	runestar: interesting analysis, the school idea. But then, from that point of view. You are outclassed by normal races, ergo, that player has no way to prove he is equal to other players since everybody can just shrug and squash him. I don't want to lord over the other players but a chance to show off that my own race is a race of psionicists.Simply an opportunity for simple equal measure. Take it this way " I might not excel at magery like you elfling, But inthe few years since my cerebremorphesis, My skill at the mental arts remains unmatched" See what I mean, actual balance. That character should not better in whole then the elf wizard but he should be able to show off that in their chosen area, psionics, they are true masters. In effect he's not stronger, he's equal, but when it comes to psionics, he's the better choice. Same as human's and dwarves make better warblades then gnomes or halflings but gnomes or halflings are better rogues, spellthieves, etc. Their equal but in their natural field the humans and dwarves excel much more. Yet the current system prevents that kind of logical balance because at ECL 20, the elf psion 20 is a better psion... So you don't want to overshadow the Wizard, but you would like to be the best psionicist? And if a high LA race was known as masters of magic, you wouldn't want them to overshadow the Psion, but you would want them to be the best mages? With that system, it will always be better to play a high LA race than a normal one, because there's always monsters out there that's meant to be the best in a certain field. But in a standard adventuring party, the flayer is not supposed to be a better Psion than the party Psion, just like my fictive 'masters of magic'-race is not supposed to be better Wizards than the party Wizard. Both of these races are masters in their field (psionic and magic respectively), when compared to other races (also known as 'on average'). But each and every individual flayer is not a more powerful Psion than each and every individual human. Because they are so powerful, normal illithids don't adventure with normal members of the weaker races, they adventure with the most gifted and powerful, which is what LA represents. I've read D&D novels where an individual (average) mindflayer was defeated by a master Psion or Wizard, without anyone disputing that illithids are masters of psionic (it merely showed that extraordinary powerful individuals could defeat some illithids). Expert adventurers are as powerful as standard illithids, which is why standard illithids are in the same party as expert adventurers of lesser races, and powerful illithids are adventuring with epic heroes of lesser races. You might think the flayer is too weak for it's LA, and you might be right, but saying that it can't be played properly unless it's the most powerful psionic member of an adventuring party is BS. If you want your illithid to be the most powerful psion in the party, ask your DM if you can start at higher ECL than the rest of the group (to represent a standard illithid in a standard party, an expert illithid in a party of experts, and one of the world's most powerful illithid in a party with some of the world's most powerful humans/dwarves/elves/halflings), in return for playing a weaker character another time. Don't try to turn a mindflayer into the obvious choice for every psion. You wouldn't like it if people started turning high LA races into the obvious choice for every other profession, lest you end up with ten parties in a row, made up by characters with scales, horns, wings and tentacles (which robs the world of all credibility and turns the extraordinary into the norm).
unundindur 07-31-07, 08:53 PM	I would say the group as a whole should deside. If everyone (or close to everyone) agrees there should be little proble playing a mind flayer with all its abilities but only 1 HD. Its a little bit like a gestalt character. Yes, you are better, but you still have only as much hp as everyone else (or at least close to it). The game is designed to make it proof of balancing issues (which is does to a certai n extent). It doesn't really care about the roleplaying part. If you on the other hand would rule otehrwise I am certain you would not have to much trouble. The question is this: Can your group play with characters at various levels questing together? If the answer is yes then I think you could have a good time just decreasing HDs of whatever creature you had in mind ;)
Lindwyrm 07-31-07, 08:59 PM	I would say the group as a whole should deside. If everyone (or close to everyone) agrees there should be little proble playing a mind flayer with all its abilities but only 1 HD. Its a little bit like a gestalt character. Yes, you are better, but you still have only as much hp as everyone else (or at least close to it). The game is designed to make it proof of balancing issues (which is does to a certai n extent). It doesn't really care about the roleplaying part. If you on the other hand would rule otehrwise I am certain you would not have to much trouble. The question is this: Can your group play with characters at various levels questing together? If the answer is yes then I think you could have a good time just decreasing HDs of whatever creature you had in mind ;) Unfortunately, even stripping back to 1HD, and losing all the feats and skill points from the HD you are losing, still leaves you with a +7 LA, or ECL 8. Please note how vulnerable you will be in a level 8 party with only 1 HD. Please also note how overwhelming you would be against a CR 1 creature with your DC 17 3d4 round area effect stunn and your ability to remove a brain every other round; your at will charm monster and suggestion, not to mention your planeshift. Oh yes, and you also have an entirely positive set of stat adjustments. Of course you could remove these all, but then you aren't playing an illithid really are you?
unundindur 07-31-07, 09:05 PM	Unfortunately, even stripping back to 1HD, and losing all the feats and skill points from the HD you are losing, still leaves you with a +7 LA, or ECL 8. Please note how vulnerable you will be in a level 8 party with only 1 HD. Please also note how overwhelming you would be against a CR 1 creature with your DC 17 3d4 round area effect stunn and your ability to remove a brain every other round; your at will charm monster and suggestion, not to mention your planeshift. Oh yes, and you also have an entirely positive set of stat adjustments. Of course you could remove these all, but then you aren't playing an illithid really are you? I mean that its possible to allow all that at level 1. Yes you are powerful, but as long as everyone is fine with power inbalance that should not be to much of a problem. After a while those abilities will decrease in power compared to the rest (although they will always yeald a boost). Yes, you can plane shift, but well, thats a dangerous buisness for a 1hd creature (ANYTHING out there kills you). And yes you have al ot of wachy powers, but you also look like...a mindflayer... That high level paladin leading the town you get your quests in may not like that to much. I am just trying to say that there are many ways to penalize power, even though you are exceptionally good at combat.
Lindwyrm 07-31-07, 09:13 PM	So how much power imbalance would you accept? The ilithid is 7 levels imbalanced (assuming the LA is correct). I'm fairly OK with a small imbalance (a couple of levels between top and bottom), but 7 levels is a bit much - you're at the short end of the XP chart for one thing if the encounters are suitable for the low level characters, and they should die horribly if you meet the encounters applicable to you. I'll take risking getting attacked by something on the astral or the elemental plane of air in exchange for not having to stand in front of an overwhelming foe... After all, the power is at will, and if something happens to be in the area that I arrive in, I still only have to survive a round and I can run away again. I'd hope that at least the second time I'd end up safe. And if I'm not an evil squid head? What if I'm neutral, or even good? Also, I once again introduce you to my friends Mr. Charm Monster; and Mr. Mind Blast and his good friend Ms. Brain Extraction should a fight kick off.
unundindur 07-31-07, 09:25 PM	So how much power imbalance would you accept? The ilithid is 7 levels imbalanced (assuming the LA is correct). With a good GM I could accept a lot, as long as I had fun and everyhting makes sense [1 HD balor does not] I'm fairly OK with a small imbalance (a couple of levels between top and bottom), but 7 levels is a bit much - you're at the short end of the XP chart for one thing if the encounters are suitable for the low level characters, and they should die horribly if you meet the encounters applicable to you. Still a lucky hit with a weapon would pick you down though. I'll take risking getting attacked by something on the astral or the elemental plane of air in exchange for not having to stand in front of an overwhelming foe... After all, the power is at will, and if something happens to be in the area that I arrive in, I still only have to survive a round and I can run away again. I'd hope that at least the second time I'd end up safe. From a GM perspective I doubt you would live for 1 round if you first got into trouble in another plane at level 1, not even at level 3-4. And if I'm not an evil squid head? What if I'm neutral, or even good? Thats a point, but still a clever GM would be able to fix this, of that I am certain. Sure, you play a shapeshifter of sorts, who cna look like a normal person. Still the GM could involve a sect hunting this creature (typically werewolves etc.), or the items the group find lend themselves better to the other players, or if its a continous threat then the enemy learn that this creature have strong powers, and they take that into account (they may notice that it have the same hp as the others). That last part would be a hell to the mindflayer for example. Suddenly none of the 10 orcs care about the fighters, but scatter and use long bows from far away, all targetting the dangerous but killable mind flayer. Also, I once again introduce you to my friends Mr. Charm Monster; and Mr. Mind Blast and his good friend Ms. Brain Extraction should a fight kick off. Yes, they are powerful, but they are almost as useful at the level you gain them normally as at level 1. All in all I am aware that this is for spesific groups, but I just wnated to show the possibility. That said I see one point that would have to be lowered and that is damage reduction, as it could simply make things to booring.
Lindwyrm 07-31-07, 09:44 PM	So if a 1HD Balor doesn't make sense, why does a 1HD Illithid? What normally multi HD creatures do make sense to have all their normal powers but only 1HD? I'm fairly OK with a small imbalance (a couple of levels between top and bottom), but 7 levels is a bit much - you're at the short end of the XP chart for one thing if the encounters are suitable for the low level characters, and they should die horribly if you meet the encounters applicable to you. Still a lucky hit with a weapon would pick you down though. Yes, but that's irrelevant, as we are discussing how much power difference we're willing to allow. We're both overpowered compared to our HD. The illithid is more overpowered than say the Ogre (LA +2): the fact that if both have only 1HD we both die to a lucky hit doesn't make sense as an arguement. From a GM perspective I doubt you would live for 1 round if you first got into trouble in another plane at level 1, not even at level 3-4. Yep, but the odds of getting into trouble in the first 12 seconds on an infinitely large, finitely inhabited plane is minimal. As I said I'd take the risk to run away to another plane, possibly even with the party. Checking the illithid, I don't see any shapeshift powers or DR. No idea where these come from in your discussion. Also, if I play a character and a GM starts targetting me with special hunting squads of anything just because of the character I'm playing, I feel that that's a bit harsh, and will almost certainly involve the party trying to fight what is for them level-inappropriate creatures. I should be able to take basic werewolves though as even a 1HD illithid, provided I don't drop in the first round. BTW, how does a clever GM "fix" the fact that I'm not an evil illithid? Setting the sect of hunting creatures to "fix" me being not evil is not a fair action, as that penalises me for trying to play a character that is legal, and is actually an attempt to fit into the group!
koiulpoi 07-31-07, 10:03 PM	unundindur, what I think you're trying to say is "As long as everybody's OK with it, you can play it and ignore the level adjustment". Either that or you're saying "As long as everyone plays a powerful race, it'll be ok.", which means everyone is (once again) at the same powerlevel. Illithids, even at 1HD, with all their powers, are still massively powerful for even a CR7 or 8 encounter. What's your point? In a party of level 1s or even level 8s, this character will be dominating. I guess if you want the flayer to dominate, then it can. But it makes no sense from a balance point of view.
FponkDamn 07-31-07, 10:27 PM	The issue here is that the Mind Flayer, while the rules do allow this, isn't really meant to be played as a PC. They're villains - but the Mind Flayer "villains" you picture as iconic can't be all of them. As is often the case, a PC mind flayer would much more likely be a younger, less experiecned one, just as most campaigns don't start their human characters out as kings and heroic champions of yore. I've run high-level villain campaigns where the characters were Yugoloths and Rakshasas and Mind Flayers. It was fun - but I also wasn't using NPCs that were human psions with exactly the same ECL as the characters. LAs are a problem at all levels - I'm currently running a 3rd-level game and one PC (despite my warnings) played a Drow, so he's first. Guess what? He sucks. Even with an LA of 2, a Drow Rogue is simply worse than a human rogue of the same XP total, despite the fact that you'd imagine Drow to be better. The end result is that yes, LA pretty much means that every race that is "more powerful" than a human is in fact much, much worse, because class levels are just about the only real measure of power in the mid- to upper levels. If you want to counter this, you could try removing the LA entirely, choosing a different "penalty" for being a more powerful race. Clearly you want flavor and roleplaying, so if your game is centered around plot, character development, and flavor, maybe it wouldn't be too hard. Consider (and this is just brainstorming, not anything I've done, but none the less): You create a campaign setting designed for mid to high level play. You want a lot of character development, plot, and a character-driven world. Each PC, in addition to his/her starting XP, gold, etc. gets a starting pool of "plot points" which that character can use to shape the world. Let's say 100. 10 points spent lets you decide that there's a small keep populated with X, maybe where you live. 35 lets you create a religion for the game world, with your character as a central figure. 80 and you can create a small city-state where you are the ruler. Etc. Instead of LA penalizing levels, perhaps it can penalize those plot points - since a human is more likely to be accepted by society, and therefore more likely to rule a city, or found a religion where people don't just run in terror. Maybe every point of LA is instead a -10 to the plot points. So if you play a Drow, you're the same level as everyone else (and therefore a better rogue than the human rogue). But that human rogue has more temporal/secular power, because the bulk of society is made up of his race. The ECL 0 races are common, and therefore no penalty applies to their advancement in society. With ECL as a measure of how rare and/or accepted a race is, this becomes a neat little subsystem. Mind Flayers are rare and terrifying, so they would rarely gain the chance to advance in a societal way, but they're more powerful than a regular psion of the same level. Just spitballing, and it's not perfect, but it is an idea of a way to keep LA as a balancing factor, just not the same kind of balancing factor. Other ideas could be: make there be no level penalty, but make it a penalty to effective level for purposes of starting wealth (so they're powerful, but poor - as they rely more on natural abilities) or do a campaign that makes heavy use of Affiliations and make all characters with a LA get a penalty to any Affiliation score equal to the LA (or double the LA, or what have you). So, depending on the needs of your campaign, there's plenty of ways to keep the races balanced without ruining their iconic power. Hope I got your gears turning, - Johnny
Lindwyrm 07-31-07, 10:27 PM	Thank goodness! Someone (koiulpoi) who can phrase my thought more clearly...:D
Lindwyrm 07-31-07, 10:38 PM	I've run high-level villain campaigns where the characters were Yugoloths and Rakshasas and Mind Flayers. It was fun - but I also wasn't using NPCs that were human psions with exactly the same ECL as the characters. LAs are a problem at all levels - I'm currently running a 3rd-level game and one PC (despite my warnings) played a Drow, so he's first. Guess what? He sucks. Even with an LA of 2, a Drow Rogue is simply worse than a human rogue of the same XP total, despite the fact that you'd imagine Drow to be better. He will however have several advantages based on stats and spell likes. Whether these compensate for the 2 levels he's lost is another matter, but it should get less of a problem as he levels with the party. The end result is that yes, LA pretty much means that every race that is "more powerful" than a human is in fact much, much worse, because class levels are just about the only real measure of power in the mid- to upper levels. Again, look to the stat adjustments and spell like/extrodinary/supernatural abilities. Having at will abilities is very useful. If you want to counter this, you could try removing the LA entirely, choosing a different "penalty" for being a more powerful race. Clearly you want flavor and roleplaying, so if your game is centered around plot, character development, and flavor, maybe it wouldn't be too hard. Consider (and this is just brainstorming, not anything I've done, but none the less): You create a campaign setting designed for mid to high level play. You want a lot of character development, plot, and a character-driven world. Each PC, in addition to his/her starting XP, gold, etc. gets a starting pool of "plot points" which that character can use to shape the world. Let's say 100. 10 points spent lets you decide that there's a small keep populated with X, maybe where you live. 35 lets you create a religion for the game world, with your character as a central figure. 80 and you can create a small city-state where you are the ruler. Etc. Instead of LA penalizing levels, perhaps it can penalize those plot points - since a human is more likely to be accepted by society, and therefore more likely to rule a city, or found a religion where people don't just run in terror. Maybe every point of LA is instead a -10 to the plot points. So if you play a Drow, you're the same level as everyone else (and therefore a better rogue than the human rogue). But that human rogue has more temporal/secular power, because the bulk of society is made up of his race. The ECL 0 races are common, and therefore no penalty applies to their advancement in society. With ECL as a measure of how rare and/or accepted a race is, this becomes a neat little subsystem. Mind Flayers are rare and terrifying, so they would rarely gain the chance to advance in a societal way, but they're more powerful than a regular psion of the same level. So effectively the ECL races dominate the actual sessions, but the non-ECL races dominate the deciding what is in the world? Interesting... Just spitballing, and it's not perfect, but it is an idea of a way to keep LA as a balancing factor, just not the same kind of balancing factor. Other ideas could be: make there be no level penalty, but make it a penalty to effective level for purposes of starting wealth (so they're powerful, but poor - as they rely more on natural abilities) or do a campaign that makes heavy use of Affiliations and make all characters with a LA get a penalty to any Affiliation score equal to the LA (or double the LA, or what have you). So, depending on the needs of your campaign, there's plenty of ways to keep the races balanced without ruining their iconic power. Hope I got your gears turning, - Johnny Again, ignoring the ECL for play sounds like a bad idea. It's not too bad for a low ECL creature, but take a +19 ECL race in a level 20 game. The character still has his 20 levels of whatever, but has access to all his powers and immunities on top of being for example a Wiz 20 with access to all the relevant spells.
koiulpoi 07-31-07, 11:07 PM	Thank goodness! Someone (koiulpoi) who can phrase my thought more clearly...:D Heh, thanks. That's going in my ego box :D
runestar 08-01-07, 12:06 AM	But then, from that point of view. You are outclassed by normal races, ergo, that player has no way to prove he is equal to other players since everybody can just shrug and squash him. I don't want to lord over the other players but a chance to show off that my own race is a race of psionicists.Simply an opportunity for simple equal measure. This will almost be the case when they are used as NPCs, especially when you ratchet their cr to 2-3 points above the party's EL to make for a climatic battle. For example, a psionic mindflayer casts as a psion9 and is cr8, implying it is a good fight for a lv7 party, which also means that the mindflayer gets ample opportunities to display its "superiority of psionics" to your PCs, the "inferior beings", since they will be 7th lv spellcasters at best. Sadly, this falls apart when you use the ECL system. Equality is tricky to prove here since you get extra abilities over and above what a typical psion gets, and as per the SS guidelines, you need to pay for them. The next best thing I can think of is simple to play a pure psion using a LA+0 race, and find a way of working in some illithid flavour into your backstory or something. In the very least, a mindflayer would be far too strong to be allowed as is in a lv8 party.
DwarfPcfan 08-01-07, 10:47 AM	Good posts everybody. Here's what I think some your ideas Erato: Very good observation, I had'nt tought of it that way. I can counter the argument with this though however. Yes a normal illithid is something for an expert party of adventurers. But for game mechanics and role-playing purposes. That illithid should not be weaker then the other members of the party of expert adventurers. To phrase it simply, I dont want this: Illithid telepath 1>Psion16, Illithid wizard 1<Elf wizard16 as balance What I want is this: illithid psion 1=Human psion16, illithid psion 1=elf wizard 16 in power levels. the illithid is still impossible to play at lower levels. But when he does become available, he's just as good a choice as the standard 16th level character of a normal race. In world effects, the illithids are much more powerful then standard humans. But adventurers are not standard members of their races ergo, the illithid is available and perfectly equal to the party... See what I mean ? Yes a standard illithid really, really is unsuitable for a 1rst level party. But if the game starts at an appropriate level, say 16. that illithid becomes a valid option and with just 1 level of telepath is equal in power to a human psion 16. Unfortunetly, in the current system, the human psion 16 is always better at psionics. In real balance, ECL races would always have fewer class levels then a standard rae character but with fewer levels they would be able to accomplish equal feats. An illithid psion 1 would be able to excel at psionics equally then the available 16th level human psion in a 16th level human party Lindwyrm: Good point too, but game mechanics have to be taken into account. Meaning that players who want to play the illithid psion 1 at 16th level should have an equal opportunity and not be trumped... Everybody offered good solutions. And to answer briefly. Taking into account what I answered to Erato, if what I said was implimented, the result would not change anything to campaign worlds, illithids would still be freaking illithids with all that entails. But players could have access to them as races , at the appropriate levels of course (Say 15th for example for an illithid) and that player would be an equal party member... any more thoughts to close this conversation? thanks everybody...:D
koiulpoi 08-01-07, 01:10 PM	DwarfPcFan, I simply have to disagree. If the Illithid should be excelling in Psionics equally to the Human Psion, then you make the Illithid more powerful and it's no longer a fitting member for a 16th level party. It has great abilities besides simply being psionic. It's what level adjustments mean. A Mind Flayer Psion 1 may have just started adventuring, may be a kid for his race, but already is equal in power to a 16th level human Psion. That means they're powerful, and the way we have this balanced is through level adjustments.
Llathos 08-01-07, 02:41 PM	I can only tell you what I did for one of my players when they approached me with this problem. I took the race they wanted and found the LA for it. Then I turned the LA into levels they took in that race and spread out the HD advancement, special abilities, etc across those levels. Spell like abilities, when applicable, come in at the equivalent caster level in hitdice. For example, if a race allows haste 3/day, I'd let them have that ability once they'd advanced to 5 HD. The player gets to choose whether they advance a class level or a racial level when they level up. The net result is a progression of power and class skills and features that closely maps to the rest of the party, but still gives them the flavor they're looking for. At some point down the road, they become a full-powered version of the creature and have class levels to boot. It's worked just fine for me thus far.
Argaud 08-02-07, 06:06 AM	I get the impression that very often the guys at WotC don’t bother with the key ingredient of the LA calculation: the acid test. They just have an LA assigned to the special abilities, add them up and come up with absurd high LAs for many critters. I am not against the LA system by any means, but I am all for double check those numbers and make a fairer assessment of what LAs should have each critter. I mean, winged flight is LA+2, right? But what are wings worth if the ECL of the creature is 15? Absolutely nothing, since at level 15 all the PCs fly using cheap magical items that give them better maneuver and speed than most winged fliers. Same happens with many spell-like abilities. Charm Person 3/day? Nifty at level 1, almost irrelevant at level 10. SR 15? Great at level 5, somewhat useable at level 10, almost nothing at level 15. As it has been mentioned before, if the illithid LA is not working for you, just change it.
runestar 08-02-07, 06:36 AM	I mean, winged flight is LA+2, right? But what are wings worth if the ECL of the creature is 15? Yes, but if they reduce the LA further based on the assumption that innate flight is less valuable to higher lv PCs, then they end up making it too cheap for lower lv PCs. Sean Reynolds once noted that LA should have the most impact at the lower lvs, as that was when its difference is the most significant. Thus, they had to consider the worst case scenario - what if a 1st lv PC took said template? Combine it with LA buyoff if you must.:)
unundindur 08-02-07, 07:11 AM	The winged template is easy. Let it count as +2 up until 10th level, then let it become +1 and at 15 let it just fade into the background (+0). I doubt anyone is going to complaint.
runestar 08-02-07, 07:19 AM	I would never let a template count as LA+0 unless it had as many drawbacks as benefits. Magic flight might be cheap and readily accessible, but at least a price still has to pay for it.
Argaud 08-02-07, 08:33 AM	I would never let a template count as LA+0 unless it had as many drawbacks as benefits. Magic flight might be cheap and readily accessible, but at least a price still has to pay for it. If it is not worth anything it shouldn't be worth anything. Most races have minor abilities that do not cause LA. Low light vision, darkvision, stability, minor skill bonuses, even +1 to all saves. Okay, so when are wings are good at level 15? Maybe if you are traped in a dead magic zone. Is that worth anything? Sure. But at that point something like... say, darkvision a better ability to have all the time, and as mentioned up there darkvision does not cost any LA. I think Unundindu is on something.
runestar 08-02-07, 09:03 AM	If it is not worth anything it shouldn't be worth anything. Most races have minor abilities that do not cause LA. Low light vision, darkvision, stability, minor skill bonuses, even +1 to all saves. As always, I would say that it depends. If templates could be had for free, why wouldn't PCs tack them on? So what if the benefits of +2dex/wis/fight are negligible? It is free anyways, so why not just slap it on? You don't lose anything. I wouldn't say that darkvision is free, just that its cost is so low that you cannot really justify it being worth LA+1 on its own. Heck, if it truly is free, why not give every single race automatic access to low light vision and darkvision? Even at higher lvs, persistent flight is still a long way off (fly only lasts 1 min/lv), and the flight speed granted by said template cannot be easily replicated using conventional means. Imagine if the party always had access to flight 24/7.... Maybe I am just paranoid, but I see it as somewhat of a slippery slope. While you could argue that the DM would balance anything, I still prefer for it to be internally consistent to start.
Steely_Dan 08-02-07, 09:27 AM	The point is that the ECL system is not meant to indicate that you as a member of X race are automatically going to be as powerful in a given field as someone who has enough levels to cancel out your effective levels. It indicates how much more powerful you are than a baseline race with the same number of levels as you. Bingo.
Kursk 08-02-07, 09:36 AM	What do you really want to play. You want to play an inscrutable alien race with sinister motives, intelligence beyond human comprehension and unsurpassed psionic ability. Now how is that possible if the race, using the current system, will always be inferior to any LA+0 race at psionics. Valid points and why they were never designed to be PCs. They are monsters. Pretty simple really.
DwarfPcfan 08-02-07, 10:25 AM	DwarfPcFan, I simply have to disagree. If the Illithid should be excelling in Psionics equally to the Human Psion, then you make the Illithid more powerful and it's no longer a fitting member for a 16th level party. It has great abilities besides simply being psionic. It's what level adjustments mean. A Mind Flayer Psion 1 may have just started adventuring, may be a kid for his race, but already is equal in power to a 16th level human Psion. That means they're powerful, and the way we have this balanced is through level adjustments. Why? This makes no sense to me. How is being an equally effective party member unfitting for a party or making then more powerful thus unsuitable for a 16th level party as you say?:confused: I though everybody agreed that the game should as fun for everybody? I also thought that everybody agreed that every party member in a party should have a chance to be equal wether he's playing a 16th level psion or an illithid psion 1? Are you saying monster pcs should be weaker?:waits: LA is supposed to be a system that calculates at what level a certain monster race is available as an equal party member. Namely if a frost giant is an ECL 19 then that should mean that at 20th level (ECL19+1 barbarian level) he should be equal to say the 20th level barbarian. Is that not the basic point of LA?:smirk: As it stands even with all their special abilities an illithid psion1 is significantly weaker then a 16th level human psion. At level 20 then it really becomes ridiculous. A 20th level human psion completely anihilates an illithid psion 5. The human psion just uses standard tactics and the illithid psion get's blown to kingdom come I know CR and LA are not the same thing and should be kept appart but it bears mentioning that a human psion 20 is a CR 20 challenge while an illithid psion 5 is a CR 13 challenge. That at least indicates a little the difference in power. Again all I'm saying is that the LA rules have no logic to them.Their supposed to be there to allow more powerful monster races to enter a campaign as pcs at a certain level without bieng under powered or overpowered. The current rules punish players who want to play anything but the PHB races. There's my whole beef, no equality
unundindur 08-02-07, 10:48 AM	Why? This makes no sense to me. How is being an equally effective party member unfitting for a party or making then more powerful thus unsuitable for a 16th level party as you say?:confused: I though everybody agreed that the game should as fun for everybody? I also thought that everybody agreed that every party member in a party should have a chance to be equal wether he's playing a 16th level psion or an illithid psion 1? Are you saying monster pcs should be weaker?:waits: LA is supposed to be a system that calculates at what level a certain monster race is available as an equal party member. Namely if a frost giant is an ECL 19 then that should mean that at 20th level (ECL19+1 barbarian level) he should be equal to say the 20th level barbarian. Is that not the basic point of LA?:smirk: As it stands even with all their special abilities an illithid psion1 is significantly weaker then a 16th level human psion. At level 20 then it really becomes ridiculous. A 20th level human psion completely anihilates an illithid psion 5. The human psion just uses standard tactics and the illithid psion get's blown to kingdom come I know CR and LA are not the same thing and should be kept appart but it bears mentioning that a human psion 20 is a CR 20 challenge while an illithid psion 5 is a CR 13 challenge. That at least indicates a little the difference in power. Again all I'm saying is that the LA rules have no logic to them.Their supposed to be there to allow more powerful monster races to enter a campaign as pcs at a certain level without bieng under powered or overpowered. The current rules punish players who want to play anything but the PHB races. There's my whole beef, no equality I think the two of you are missing each others point (or perhaps I am missing both...). koiulpoi says that a mind flayer have otehr things than psionic power to compensate for his psion level of 1 (in the case of a lv 16 comparison). This is the ability to suck brains, stat increases, spell like powers etc. I also thinkDwarfPcfan understands this and don't want to give the mind flayer +15 caster levels for free. If I understnad Dwarf right he is simply questioning if a +15 adjustment is right for a mind flayer. Are his powers comparable to a lv 15 psion? You cna rule either on that I guess, but the point is an old one; level adjustment and magical classes are a horrible mix to behold. If you happened to take fighter levels with this mind flayer he would get a lot better of (brainfester). So what I could agree to is that if a player wanted to play a psion mind flayer he may get some free psion levels with regard to spells. Let say that he counts as a lv 10 psion for the purpose of powers. That way he would be severely behind the pure psion in psionc pwoer, but still able to contribute (and he have all his mindflayer goodie). It helps keep the fluff at least, and shouldn't mess balance by too much... :) EDIT: This is a bit similar to people who wnat to play bard/fighter/sorcerers... Much better to just stick with one of the three classes, and perhaps 2 of em. If someone was hellbent on beeing all three I see nothing problematic is giving out a few free caster levels (with spellprogression), perhaps every second level.
Argaud 08-02-07, 11:53 AM	As always, I would say that it depends. If templates could be had for free, why wouldn't PCs tack them on? So what if the benefits of +2dex/wis/fight are negligible? It is free anyways, so why not just slap it on? You don't lose anything. No, we were talking about flight. Some things are good at all levels. Enhanced mental attributes are one of those. HD-dependant SR is another. Increases to physical attributes and natural armor, however, might become weaker at level 7 and irrelevant at level 15 if Polymorph abuse is tolerated in the game. After all through Polymorph Any Object all the PCs might be War Trolls (or pick your favourite overpowered shape) all the time. Like darkvision at level 1, flight becomes worth less than a level at around level 12. To see the true value of flight check the raptoran race in Races of the Wild, by mid-level they have flight without LA. At least part of the staff of WotC know that flight is not worth any LA at mid-high level.
Argaud 08-02-07, 12:18 PM	Let me make some comments about the Mind Flayers LA. Kinda of a commented acid test on that LA+7 they have. Mind Flayers are 9HD aberrations. This is a bad start, because the aberration type sucks badly. 8-dice hp, medium bab, one good save, minimum skill points, no weapon proficiencies and in the flayer case no armor or shield proficiencies either. They are even worse than giants. Now, this does not mean they have negative LA, because no such thing exist, but it is something to take into account when giving them +LA later. +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha Wow, not bad. This is worth +1 LA because they are uneven stats, but not +2 because there is no large increase of strength and constitution. +3 natural armor One can’t ever have enough AC, so +3 natural armor is worth +1 LA. But only barely, because in general LA does not grow arithmetically but exponentially. So +1 LA and +1 LA not always become +2 LA. Moreover, if Polymorph is prevalent in the campaign, this is a +1 that vanishes at level 15, point all the PCs will be abusing polymorph for much higher natural armor. Natural weapons: 4 tentacles doing 1d4 Okay, this is a joke. Yeah, it does not hurt having natural weapons, but 1d4... with a bab of 6? Even at level 9 this pitiful. At level 16 it is nothing. This one is not worth any LA. Spell-like abilities: Mind Blast (cone with DC 17 will before ability modifiers). Other slas including Charm Monster, Suggestion and Plane Shift. These are very good. They are relatively powerful (level 3-5) spells used at will. And the Mind Blast is not bad either. But you know what? Casters get all those before level 12, and by level 15 they basically can use them as many times as needed every day. The slas would be worth LA+2 before level 10, but only +1 afterwards, and probably even less than +1 after level 15, when much more powerful spells become common. Since I am starting to see the flayer ECL will fall between ECL 10 and 15 I’d say this is worth LA+1. Improved Grab and Extract This pair of Ex abilities are the reason flayers are so feared. But frankly, they suck. They suck because the flayer can barely grapple a lame halfling and probably won’t hit with the four tentacles anyway unless the halfling is already unconscious, at which point a simple cdg is better than extracting the brain (although perhaps less stylish, but style is not worth LA). SR = HD+16 and telepathy 100’ Oh boy, that is some serious SR. That is worth +1 LA even though we are now at LA+4. The telepathy is handy, but not worth any more LA. So I get the impression mind flayers are actually LA+4 at most, going down to LA+3 at level 15 if Polymorph is not banned. What do you think?
runestar 08-02-07, 12:46 PM	So I get the impression mind flayers are actually LA+4 at most, going down to LA+3 at level 15 if Polymorph is not banned. What do you think? I am just curious as to what polymorph has to do with this analysis?:confused:
penchant 08-02-07, 01:18 PM	What you really need in my Lowest Common Level Adjustment (LCLA) house rule. Its both balanced and satisfying. LCLA Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=884115)
koiulpoi 08-02-07, 01:56 PM	Right right, I get it. Your argument all along, DwarfPcFan, has been that the Flayer's LA is too high, not that LAs are imbalanced. That's a whole different can of beans. I, for one, am in favor of monstrous races in PC hands having less racial hit dice to deal with. They're like level adjustment but suck only slightly less.
IdleAltruism 08-02-07, 02:51 PM	Let me make some comments about the Mind Flayers LA. Kinda of a commented acid test on that LA+7 they have. Mind Flayers are 9HD aberrations. This is a bad start, because the aberration type sucks badly. 8-dice hp, medium bab, one good save, minimum skill points, no weapon proficiencies and in the flayer case no armor or shield proficiencies either. They are even worse than giants. Now, this does not mean they have negative LA, because no such thing exist, but it is something to take into account when giving them +LA later. +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha Wow, not bad. This is worth +1 LA because they are uneven stats, but not +2 because there is no large increase of strength and constitution. +3 natural armor One can’t ever have enough AC, so +3 natural armor is worth +1 LA. But only barely, because in general LA does not grow arithmetically but exponentially. So +1 LA and +1 LA not always become +2 LA. Moreover, if Polymorph is prevalent in the campaign, this is a +1 that vanishes at level 15, point all the PCs will be abusing polymorph for much higher natural armor. Natural weapons: 4 tentacles doing 1d4 Okay, this is a joke. Yeah, it does not hurt having natural weapons, but 1d4... with a bab of 6? Even at level 9 this pitiful. At level 16 it is nothing. This one is not worth any LA. Spell-like abilities: Mind Blast (cone with DC 17 will before ability modifiers). Other slas including Charm Monster, Suggestion and Plane Shift. These are very good. They are relatively powerful (level 3-5) spells used at will. And the Mind Blast is not bad either. But you know what? Casters get all those before level 12, and by level 15 they basically can use them as many times as needed every day. The slas would be worth LA+2 before level 10, but only +1 afterwards, and probably even less than +1 after level 15, when much more powerful spells become common. Since I am starting to see the flayer ECL will fall between ECL 10 and 15 I’d say this is worth LA+1. Improved Grab and Extract This pair of Ex abilities are the reason flayers are so feared. But frankly, they suck. They suck because the flayer can barely grapple a lame halfling and probably won’t hit with the four tentacles anyway unless the halfling is already unconscious, at which point a simple cdg is better than extracting the brain (although perhaps less stylish, but style is not worth LA). SR = HD+16 and telepathy 100’ Oh boy, that is some serious SR. That is worth +1 LA even though we are now at LA+4. The telepathy is handy, but not worth any more LA. So I get the impression mind flayers are actually LA+4 at most, going down to LA+3 at level 15 if Polymorph is not banned. What do you think? You are way way off. LA does not go off of, oh this is worth this many LA and so is this. Its a balance, if you want to chalk up the mindflayer LA for each ability it would put him somewhere in the 12+ range, but they aren't worth that hence LA+7. The SLA SR and stats alone would put it near 9-10 LA going by your method. A mindflayer would be to powerful with the psionic variation with only+4 LA and the regular version is more powerful then a 12th level character. They got the LA about right(a LA+6 for mindflayer would be reasonable if you didn't use psionic variant). And you don't give enough credit for the extract ability :D its extremely powerful, just not as useful to PCs.
Argaud 08-02-07, 03:03 PM	I am just curious as to what polymorph has to do with this analysis?:confused: Polymorph basically makes meaningless the +3 to natural armor and the superior physical stats of the flayer because they get semi-permanently changed to the natural armor and physical abilities of the twinkiest, most broken creature under 15 HD that the players can find.
Istaran 08-02-07, 05:35 PM	I personally run a dragon-heavy (on the PC side) campaign, and find that the racial HD and LA are quite well balanced... for a modified gestahlt game. It works well for things like illithids as well, I would imagine: At ECL 15 you'd have one side of your progression be all racial HD and LA, while the other side is 15 class levels. I average the main stats between the HD at each level rather than taking best (as they do in the Unearthed Arcana rules) because I find that much more balanced. For LA levels, that means averaging BAB increase (I also use fractional BAB / saves/ etc and round down at the end), save progression, HP gain, and skill point gain with a 0, and gaining 1/2 a HD for purposes related to HD. Also, as per normal gestahlt rules, you can't gain the same benefit from both sides of your progression at the same time. So I'd basically space out the psionic powers of the illithid and allow the player to take psion class levels at the levels they aren't gaining racial psionic power. For the levels they are gaining racial manifester levels I would let them take some other class. Example: These two are both ECL 15 in my campaign: Illithid Psion 6/Wizard 9 - manifests as a 15th level psion, casts as a 9th level wizard, and has all the racial abilities of an illithid. Human Psion 15/Wizard 15 - manifests as a 15th level psion, casts as a 15th level wizard, and has a bonus feat and some bonus skills. Note that the human is a better wizard, but the illithid is a better psion (because of racial +8 int if nothing else). An Illithid Wizard 15 would be a better wizard than the human (because of +int) but a worse psion. This type of houseruling makes it possible to play a race with natural spellcasting/psionics to be able to keep pace with a LA +0 race in their racial spellcasting/psionics type, usually with racial benefits that push them to be better at that one thing, while still penalizing them in a way that helps keep balance (as they are still giving up one side of their character progression for racial levels, so they can't fill out two progressions like a human can).
IdleAltruism 08-02-07, 06:57 PM	Gestalt gets really unbalanced with high STR creatures when you allow them to take one progression on each side. Its one thing to have a wizard do 10d6 of fire damage 1-2 a day, its another having a giant do more damage 4 times a round. The gestalt system wasn't meant to handle this sort of thing, it might work for some situations like caster races but for most melee it becomes to powerful.
Lindwyrm 08-02-07, 08:08 PM	Let me make some comments about the Mind Flayers LA. Kinda of a commented acid test on that LA+7 they have. Mind Flayers are 9HD aberrations. This is a bad start, because the aberration type sucks badly. 8-dice hp, medium bab, one good save, minimum skill points, no weapon proficiencies and in the flayer case no armor or shield proficiencies either. They are even worse than giants. Now, this does not mean they have negative LA, because no such thing exist, but it is something to take into account when giving them +LA later. OK, but HD have nothing to do with LA. You add the two together to get the ECL. You shouldn't take into account the HD when determining the LA, especially as you can by various means change those aberration HD for dragon or undead (feats, templates or similar means). +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha Wow, not bad. This is worth +1 LA because they are uneven stats, but not +2 because there is no large increase of strength and constitution. 28 points of stats isn't worth more than +1LA? Especially to a psionic creature who has mental dependent spell likes? I disagree heavily. +3 natural armor One can’t ever have enough AC, so +3 natural armor is worth +1 LA. But only barely, because in general LA does not grow arithmetically but exponentially. So +1 LA and +1 LA not always become +2 LA. Moreover, if Polymorph is prevalent in the campaign, this is a +1 that vanishes at level 15, point all the PCs will be abusing polymorph for much higher natural armor. LA isn't dependent on what else you can do with spells, otherwise you're in fact saying that past level 15 nothing with good physical stats, natural armour or physical abilities should have an LA as everyone can have them via spells. Natural weapons: 4 tentacles doing 1d4 Okay, this is a joke. Yeah, it does not hurt having natural weapons, but 1d4... with a bab of 6? Even at level 9 this pitiful. At level 16 it is nothing. This one is not worth any LA. I'd agree this doesn't really give an LA. It's about the normal damage for a natural weapon though, and you do get 4 of them. They're also required for the brain extraction power. Spell-like abilities: Mind Blast (cone with DC 17 will before ability modifiers). Other slas including Charm Monster, Suggestion and Plane Shift. These are very good. They are relatively powerful (level 3-5) spells used at will. And the Mind Blast is not bad either. But you know what? Casters get all those before level 12, and by level 15 they basically can use them as many times as needed every day. The slas would be worth LA+2 before level 10, but only +1 afterwards, and probably even less than +1 after level 15, when much more powerful spells become common. Since I am starting to see the flayer ECL will fall between ECL 10 and 15 I’d say this is worth LA+1. Spell casters might get access to several uses of the spell per day, but any useful ability that you can use at will is far better than ebing able to memorise say 4 copies per day, especially when it is a run away spell-like such as Plane Shift. If your opponent can't cast it, he can't follow you. If he can, he needs to guess the plane, and have the relevant focus for that plane. By which time you can be shifting to another plane again, and so on. Improved Grab and Extract This pair of Ex abilities are the reason flayers are so feared. But frankly, they suck. They suck because the flayer can barely grapple a lame halfling and probably won’t hit with the four tentacles anyway unless the halfling is already unconscious, at which point a simple cdg is better than extracting the brain (although perhaps less stylish, but style is not worth LA). Of course, being able to stun your victim for 3d4 rounds helps with being able to grapple and attach your tentacles, especially as they won't resist much. Charm monster probably helps too. "Come over here my friend, I want to talk to you away from your companions..." *Mind Blast* *slurp* SR = HD+16 and telepathy 100’ Oh boy, that is some serious SR. That is worth +1 LA even though we are now at LA+4. The telepathy is handy, but not worth any more LA. Telepathy does mean you can talk to anyone, and they understand your charm monster ability commands. So I get the impression mind flayers are actually LA+4 at most, going down to LA+3 at level 15 if Polymorph is not banned. What do you think? Even taking the LA down to +4, that's still a ECL 13 creature.
koiulpoi 08-02-07, 08:39 PM	Hit Dice should have some bearing on the LA of a creature. Namely, they're not class levels, and almost always worse. Adding level adjustment on top of hit dice leads to LA inflation and a creature thats LA doesn't match up with its powerlevel.
Lindwyrm 08-02-07, 08:46 PM	OK, but the calculation for ECL is HD+LA (otherwise known as funky ability adjustment) is it not? If you take the HD into account and produce a creature that for whatever reason effectively doesn't pay for HD, then apply a template you have to retroactively boost the LA of the creature you have just produced. For example, take an aberration, turn it undead, or into a dragon. HD will always have an impact on the ECL, but not the LA.
koiulpoi 08-02-07, 09:02 PM	OK, but the calculation for ECL is HD+LA (otherwise known as funky ability adjustment) is it not? I sure hope so, else I've been doing it wrong. If you take the HD into account and produce a creature that for whatever reason effectively doesn't pay for HD, then apply a template you have to retroactively boost the LA of the creature you have just produced. For example, take an aberration, turn it undead, or into a dragon. HD will always have an impact on the ECL, but not the LA. Ooookay, if you can find me a template that turns an abberation into an undead without increasing the LA, let me know. Most type changes come with an associated LA if they're appropriate for players. Hit dice are almost always a burden. You'd be better off trading them for Warrior or Expert levels in most cases. They're like level adjustment, but with some table scraps thrown in. Personally, I am all for removing the hit dice of monstrous races completely and implementing "total level adjustment" of some sorts. I can guarantee that the Illithid will be less than +15 LA.
Lindwyrm 08-02-07, 09:06 PM	That's true, any template you find will increase the LA. They also give you a new pile of special abilities and powers, and usually yet more stat adjustments.
DwarfPcfan 08-03-07, 03:52 PM	Right right, I get it. Your argument all along, DwarfPcFan, has been that the Flayer's LA is too high, not that LAs are imbalanced. That's a whole different can of beans. I, for one, am in favor of monstrous races in PC hands having less racial hit dice to deal with. They're like level adjustment but suck only slightly less. I use illithid as an example. I could have gone with Djinni, Dragons and whatever. My point is larger then just illithids. I used illithids because anyone has had a least one occasion when someone wanted to play such an iconic monster. No my point through all this is: The LA system makes no sense because high ECL monster pcs get completely trumped. They are almost always much weaker then pcs of the same ECL playing standard races and classes. Wether it's an illithid psion 1 at level 16 An Efreet sorcerer 1 at level 20 or an Ogre mage warblade 1 at 13th level Yes higher powered races should be unavailable till higher levels because no question, mind flayers are powerful, giants a massive damage dealers, whatever. But, the current system punishes player who would like to play high ECL races because they are so much weaker then standard pcs. My point to summerize is this:the whole LA/ECL system needs a complete overhaul to really balance high ECL races with lower ECL races in a way where at appropriate level needer is weaker, less effective or more powerful or effective. A way so that at approriate levels either is an equal option Thats all, But I see that it's a never ending debate so guess it will never really be solved Oh well:embarrass Thanks everybody!:cool:
IdleAltruism 08-03-07, 04:16 PM	Alot of LAs/template really aren't all that bad. They can all be useful, maybe some of them aren't as useful to players but thats not really something they should be concerned about. You don't play NPC classes so why would you play an NPC race? Sure they might be cool but the aristocrat can be a cool character concept that doesn't mean its on par with the average adventuring class. Like I said before most races that have high LA because their abilities are to powerful not to have it. They may not be so useful to a player but they are to the race. If you really want to play NPC races make everyone play them or make everyone play something of equal power. If you just can't handle the "weakness" of one race make a new version yourself or a new race entirely. There is no "fix" to LA they are usually pretty fair, a little off but still its a very rough system. Heres some quotes from another thread I posted on with a similar issue.
runestar 08-03-07, 10:29 PM	OK, but HD have nothing to do with LA. You add the two together to get the ECL. You shouldn't take into account the HD when determining the LA, especially as you can by various means change those aberration HD for dragon or undead (feats, templates or similar means). Racial HD should, in theory at least, mitigate LA to some extent. For example, compare the RoD half-ogre with the MM ogre. Both have a LA of +2, yet the ogre has more benefits than the half-ogre. The only plausible explanation is that its 4 giant HD has helped lower what would otherwise have been a higher LA to +2. The easiest solution, which is also the most complex, is simply to estimate what lv PC it is equivalent to, but this seems tricky especially for "dead-end" monsters such as the non-psionic mindflayer, since their abilities do not seem to synergize well with any other class I am aware of (save perhaps for illithid savant). Meaning that you are screwed doubly (once for inflated LA, twice because your choice of classes/prc stink).