Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AMGriffin 02-20-07, 05:54 PM	High elves are kinda strange to me They have all these interesting aspects to their culture that totally are left unsaid, such as a skill with music and magic. That said, I've considered refining the high elf as such: Removed -Automatic search check bonus. It seems kinda inessential to me, the skill bonuses an elf has already show them as being keen sensed -Weapon proficiencies. Kinda redundant, wouldn't ya say? After all, most classes that are going to make use of swords and bows (say for maybe rogues and bards) are going to have training in all these weapons already. Added -+2 racial bonus on spellcraft and use magical device checks. For having a culture that makes use of magic frequently, they don't have anything to show for it. -+2 racial bonus on concentrate and perform (player choice) checks. The concentrate bonus seems like it'd come with the territory. Elves supposedly will study or focus on one single spell for a few decades to make sure they truly understand it, that requires quite a bit of concentration. The perform check bonus is a result of them coming from a culture supposedly known for song and dance, yet once again, it doesn't show up in their racial traits. -Favored Class: Bard. Bard combines music, swordplay (to a lesser extent), and spellcasting, all major components of elf culture. So, yay or nay? Too powerful? Input?
Jerks 02-20-07, 06:25 PM	The weapon proficiencies are quite useful for nonmartial builds. Rogues, bards and wizards all benefit quite a bit by the ability to use these martial weapons. The automatic search is pretty much a hold-over from earlier editions and can probably be dropped without any difficulty. I'd stay away from the bonus to Concentration, and maybe give them a +2 bonus to sing and dance. I dislike having variable (player selected) bonuses and think it's better to just have some set ones. Concentration is a little too useful. Use Magic Device is one of the more powerful (at higher level) skills. It definitely does reflect an inherent magical nature though. Right now the design of the elf emphasizes that they are the ultimate dabblers. Favored class Wizard means that no matter what their level in other classes they can freely drop in a level or two of wizard to pick up some new tricks. If they go the wizard route they get some martial goodness in weaponry to fall back upon. Dex bonus benefits every class (as Con penalty hurts every class). Your changes will steer them very strongly towards taking bard which changes some of the design philosophy...but I guess that's what you are trying to accomplish.
Jaxgaret 02-20-07, 06:39 PM	Right now the design of the elf emphasizes that they are the ultimate dabblers. Favored class Wizard means that no matter what their level in other classes they can freely drop in a level or two of wizard to pick up some new tricks. If they go the wizard route they get some martial goodness in weaponry to fall back upon. Dex bonus benefits every class (as Con penalty hurts every class). Your changes will steer them very strongly towards taking bard which changes some of the design philosophy...but I guess that's what you are trying to accomplish. What's so bad about dabbling in Bardery as opposed to Wizardry? Bards make the best dabblers. Bards so much more fit the flavor of Elves than Wizards, it's not even funny. Don't even get me started on Favored Class: Bard for Gnomes. IMHO it should have stayed as Illusionist.
Willie the Duck 02-20-07, 07:47 PM	Note also that elven clerics really enjoy longsword and bow proficiencies after OD&D, 1E, 2E, 3.0, 3.5, LotR, folklore, and a bazillion fantasy paperbacks, who can say what best defines high elves? Ask six people what they think and there'll be 8 opinions amongst them. As for balance, sure. Not overpowered. Trading one skill bonus for another rarely is.
ragoftag 02-22-07, 07:23 PM	Interesting! And very well thought out. I like all parts and am tossing a text copy into my worksheet for HEs. Good job!
Kadasbrass 02-22-07, 07:34 PM	The weapon profs are most useful for an Elven Cleric in my view.
Wolf72 02-23-07, 02:44 PM	the detection ability has something to with elves being observant and paying attention to detail and what not ... I don't think dropping it hurts, but i think it's suppossed to be somewhat of their mystical nature
Marcotic 02-23-07, 10:33 PM	you know the sad thing is that they have so many racial buffs that your fixes in no way nerfs them.
Treymordin 02-24-07, 10:06 AM	Are we talking about High Elves or Grey elves? If you look at the DLCS and look at what Silvanesti elves can do that might help in this discussion.
AMGriffin 02-24-07, 12:40 PM	you know the sad thing is that they have so many racial buffs that your fixes in no way nerfs them. I wasn't trying to "Fix" them. I was trying to make them have racial traits more reflective of their culture. Elves presented in the PHB are more or less balanced.
Marcotic 02-25-07, 12:29 AM	I don't think think that they need to be balanced either, Im just saying that they don't need to worry about losing so much that they aren't playable. Im saying elves get a boat load going for them,
JD44 02-25-07, 12:37 AM	Frankly, if they needed balancing they would have gotten it some time in the last 30 years.
paladin2019 02-25-07, 03:45 AM	Ummm, high elves are the default elves of the PHB. Just thought I should mention that. And what wizard, especially a low-level one, couldn't benefit from a bow and alchemical/magical arrows after his daily spells are expended? However, I do agree that the mechanics of the bard class fit very well with the Tolkien ideal of elves, at least for high-level NPCs; add the caveat that any successful bardic knowledge check they make could be based on personal experience rather than heresay and Bob's your uncle.
Kadasbrass 02-25-07, 03:53 AM	Going through my own Elf changes at the moment too. Will advise that if you give bonuses to skills that require training to use, such as spellcraft perform and UMD, that you allow them to be usable untrained and or make them into class skills (or make it so that ranks cost one skill point even as cross-class skills). Could also consider giving elves attack bonus or saving throw bonus against magical creatures (Undead, Dragons, and Magical Beast) due to elves innate link to magic. Or give elves a +2 bonus on caster level checks against said creatures as well. Detect magic and read magic might also be nice spells-like abilities for elves as well. Frankly, if they needed balancing they would have gotten it some time in the last 30 years. Its not balancing as much as its not elf-like. Plus the race has no truely remarkable benefit for its own favored class, wizard, without using the Grey Elf subrace. Its skill bonuses are not class skills for wizard, its secret door ability is a joke since search once again isn't a class skill. As for balance, that is another topic, but wotc has proven to be no better at it then any other company. Instead of weapon profs I was thinking of giving elves in general +1 on attack with bows and crossbows. I do this because instead of a +2 dex, each of my three elf races gets a bonus to a mental stat instead (wood elves get +2 wis, high get +2 int, and dark get +2 cha). I was also going to give them weapon familiarity with the greatbow (Complete Warrior) for little extra benefit. Instead of detect secret doors I was going to give them the ability to put ranks in spot and listen at cost of one point per rank, but the limit remains same for cross-classing.
Marcotic 02-25-07, 04:55 AM	-points to above- with the whole cross class costing as much as regular class skills, but still can only have half ranks, I like that idea, I like that idea alot, just in general, it may even be the perfect fix for the Half-elf, its unique and fits (sorta') maybe even give it to humans too. that's a good one dude
Kadasbrass 02-25-07, 12:55 PM	There is a feat for humans that does it for all skills called Able Learner. I gave it as a racial trait for humans and give half-orcs, and recently half-elves, a bonus feat so they can select if they want (I made both races count as human, so they can select it).
Finfreeze 02-25-07, 01:55 PM	Your idea isn't anywhere near too powerful, before noon-after midnight Griffin. My idea of an elf... Elf+2 Dex, -2 Int 30' base land speed. Low-Light Vision Light Sensitivity {+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks Blind Fight as a bonus feat} <-- as Hypersensitivity mutation Auto-search secret doors, etc. +2 racial bonus on Climb, Handle Animal, and Survival checks Weapon Familiarity: Bows [Longbows, shortbows, greatbows, whatever new elf bow that pops up next (and composite versions of each)] Prehensile Tail: As the mutation, detailed here, except the mutation bonus is a racial bonus. A prehensile tail grants a +2 racial bonus on Balance checks. It can also grasp and manipulate a simple object up to one size category smaller than the creature’s size category. A prehensile tail cannot be used to operate a piece of equipment that requires opposable digits or fine motor control (such as a cell phone). A creature can “hang” from its prehensile tail indefinitely by wrapping it around a larger object, thereby freeing up its other limbs. The prehensile tail isn’t dexterous or strong enough to fire ranged weapons or make melee attacks, however. <-- Oh no, it's a Rym Elf! Naturally Psionic: +1 PP at each level Favored Class: Wilder <-- I don't generally do favored classes, thoughFits the "we take 203,808 years to learn anything" shtick, keeps the flavor with the sensitivity and the weapons, and gives them a real magical advantage. The light sensitivity, the prehensile tail, and the miscellaneous bonuses makes this elf more of a deep-forest type. Although, personally, I like them with human lifespans and to be tetradactyl. They also hate cold iron and most metal weapons (but not crystal, of course).
AMGriffin 02-25-07, 02:50 PM	That elf is pretty different then the PHB presented elf. In fact, it's very different. Where's light sensitivity, psionics, and...tail coming from? On that note, that seems very close to being overpowered. Hell, it's more or less superior to the wild elf (which an elf with +2 Dex, -2 Int)
Finfreeze 02-25-07, 05:57 PM	Like I hinted at, I got part of the idea from the Rym Elves (http://www.fur.com/~ollie/relf.html). I like them more than the other kinds of elves, even if they have the exact same personalities as all elves (If only I had a Burning Mirror...). OK, and they're really, really attractive compared to the furries that dominate the setting. The prehensile tail makes sense for a race that lives in trees, and the power points emphasize that they are magical by giving them more powers per day and direct access to cool psionic feats like Up the Walls. It's far, far easier to give bonuses to psionic classes than spellcasting classes (+1 1st level slot per level...yeah!), so I went with that. They have great senses and live in forests, so I gave them light sensitivity to make it a double-edged sword that cuts both ways. I really like the idea of nocturnal forest hunters with big eyes and long ears who hunt big game with their bows while hanging from tree limbs. It just seems right. I sprinkled a little of wild elf on top of that. -2 Int fits elves far better than -2 con in my opinion; any race who needs to study in their favored class an average of 1.5 centuries to be able to cast Erase once a day has got to extremely thick in the head. And if it's any consolation, I... 1. Think high elves, and to an extent wild elves, have wimpy racial traits. 2. Don't like their official set of abilities at all. Mostly redundant weapon proficiencies, fairly worthless overall immunities (unless brass dragons and bog standard ghouls are everywhere), -2 con, and favored class: wizard despite having nothing that says "wizard" make me shudder. 3. Prefer to give humans the full +2 Intelligence. 4. Just made (forest) gnomes naturally psionic and all psionic races gain +1 power point a level. 5. Think that it makes them much cooler now. Seems very close to being overpowered, hm? Sounds good. That said, I'm thinking about dropping the handle animal bonus. They do not seem the type to be herders (unless we're talking about weightless elven cows or something) or riders.
AMGriffin 02-26-07, 04:12 PM	Like I hinted at, I got part of the idea from the Rym Elves. I like them more than the other kinds of elves, even if they have the exact same personalities as all elves (If only I had a Burning Mirror...). OK, and they're really, really attractive compared to the furries that dominate the setting. There are too many redundant elven races, I will agree with this. I think it can be adequately limited to high elves, sun elves, wild elves, and drow. The prehensile tail makes sense for a race that lives in trees, and the power points emphasize that they are magical by giving them more powers per day and direct access to cool psionic feats like Up the Walls. It's far, far easier to give bonuses to psionic classes than spellcasting classes (+1 1st level slot per level...yeah!), so I went with that. They have great senses and live in forests, so I gave them light sensitivity to make it a double-edged sword that cuts both ways. I really like the idea of nocturnal forest hunters with big eyes and long ears who hunt big game with their bows while hanging from tree limbs. It just seems right. I think most elven races don't actually live in trees, just in the forest. Also, I think it states in the MM on the elven entry that traditional elves farm and gather moreso for food then hunt. Plus to have light sensitivity I'd assume a race needs DARKVISION. Dwarvs live in underground caverns and they don't have light sensitivity, so why would a bunch of forest dwellers with only low-light vision? >_> I sprinkled a little of wild elf on top of that. -2 Int fits elves far better than -2 con in my opinion; any race who needs to study in their favored class an average of 1.5 centuries to be able to cast Erase once a day has got to extremely thick in the head. This depends heavily on the flavor of the elf and their lifespan. I don't think it necessarily makes them dumb either. I'd guess when you're going to live for quite a long time (They only live to be about 400 at the very oldest in my campaigns) you're not going to be in a real hurry to learn magical spells and furthermore I think elves take their time and learn every little intricacy about every single spell. 1. Think high elves, and to an extent wild elves, have wimpy racial traits. I disagree. The immunities aren't exactly wonderful but the enchantment save can be useful. The automatic search check amongst other things is extremely useful (universally useful to all adventurers in fact). Low-light vision isn't great but nice. 2. Don't like their official set of abilities at all. Mostly redundant weapon proficiencies, fairly worthless overall immunities (unless brass dragons and bog standard ghouls are everywhere), -2 con, and favored class: wizard despite having nothing that says "wizard" make me shudder. Yeah, that was one thing that baffled me was why elves had favored class as wizard there is nothing wizardy about them. However, the weapon proficiencies are very useful for elven bards clerics druids monks and rogues. 3. Prefer to give humans the full +2 Intelligence. Instead of bonus skill points? either way, some humans are VERY stupid and giving humans any sort of bonus or penalty damages their role as the jack of all trades, and with a bonus to intelligence they're overpowered as wizards. A bonus feat to do with which whatever they want and no apparent drawbacks. 4. Just made (forest) gnomes naturally psionic and all psionic races gain +1 power point a level. Pisonic=/=magic. 5. Think that it makes them much cooler now. Whatever floats your boat man. :) Seems very close to being overpowered, hm? Sounds good. That said, I'm thinking about dropping the handle animal bonus. They do not seem the type to be herders (unless we're talking about weightless elven cows or something) or riders.