Hound Archon Race question? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hound Archon Race question? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
chefcyric23
09-14-07, 07:59 AM My group is in the attempt to play something difference for once. And planning on it being a high lvl campain. Probably start off at lvl 20 or so. Im just wonderin if a hound archon would be able to play as a monk or a cleric? I dont see why it wouldnt be able to do either one. Monk alone would probably be a really good class for it.

And just for the heck of it, what about a hound rogue? Its not really that big. And I could see its padded feet being really good at sneaking.

Also, where exactly do they come from? Since they are celestial, do they have parents. Or a bloodline of any sort like that? Thats mostly a question to use in my background. Thanks for any help.
Naderion
09-14-07, 08:25 AM Sure, there's no reason not to make such a character.

As Lawful Good outsiders, Archons come from the Plane of celestia by default, but other settings may have other places of origin for them.
At least demons often get spawned by the abyss itself, but I'm not completely sure if this does happen in celestia as well. But on all planes, many outsiders are in fact mortal souls that have died and become an inhabitant of the planes in death. On celestia, they start as Lantern Archons, but when they have archieved a greater status of understanding and living good and order, they transform into hound archons.
chefcyric23
09-14-07, 08:53 AM Next question, it says he would start out as a lvl 5 outsider with a base attack of +6 and +5 in all 3 saves. When I go to give him monk, how would I calculate that? Or would I just end up following the monk BA?
j3st3r
09-14-07, 10:54 AM just follow the monks BAB and add the hound archons to it (just like you would do it when multiclassing).

BTW, I'm actually playing lawful good hound archon monk, who doesn't kill anyone delibirately and mostly only does nonlethal damage to opponents. He doesn't use any weapons except his hands and never uses his bite attack (but slam he does ;)).

His also omnibenevolence by nature: All creatures, even the most hideously evil, deserve the chance to make amends for past misdeeds and join the side of light. Of course you must fight evil, but if there is a chance an evil creature could be redeemed, you must show mercy. You are always willing to give foes the benefit of the doubt if they promise to reform, no matter how many times the celestial has been betrayed.

Before my character became hound archon, he was a solamnian knight who died beside his comrades fighting Takhisis himself. After the death Paladine himself reincarnated me and my companions (without the memory of the life before) as archons, guardians, and eladrins to Outlands to solve the disputes between different celestials so that they could join together to fight the fiends that are gathering forces in alarming quantities.

Well that's in a nutshell of a campaign (well 2 actually) that has lasted 6 years for now and we all have had a blast.

P.S. I know about the Vow feats from the Book of Exalted deeds, but since I found about them just recently, i haven't seriously thought about them, even they might fit well to the character (and they might narrow too much how I can play may character or how others can play).
Empirate
09-21-07, 12:15 PM Just remember that Hound Archons have huge LA and racial HD. Monk is a class that really suffers from these things, almost as much as casters. I'd go with something less complicated, such as Paladin, or if you really want to be Monk-ish, go for the Sacred Fist PrC. A bit of Cleric with the right Domain choices and you're set to go for it!
Have a look at this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#houndArchon)to see where you can go.
Suropej
09-24-07, 12:45 PM Actually the Hound Archon starts with 6 lvls of outsider ( no big deal of a difference from your five, but more accurate). I've been thinking of making one too, but had a couple of questions:

1. When creating a new archon at the lowest lvl it can be would it be just a lvl 6 outsider or a lvl 6 outsider and lvl 1 ranger (favored class) ?

2. Would the lvls in outsider count against multiclassing? So if I was to make a hound archon fighter or monk (as chef wants to do), would he take the exp. penalty because neither outsider nor monk is a favored class?

I think that's it for now.
Naderion
09-24-07, 12:50 PM As a pc, with no class level, you would have 0 HD and therefore 0 hp, 0 skill points, 0 feats and stuff like that. So they just have to have at least 1 level at the start.
Most Monster Races do have racial HD, so they do work without class levels and I would allow to start without them.

As a Hound Archon, you start with 6 racial HD and LA +5, so you would have to start with an 11th level character and 55.000 XP. At 66.000 XP, you could take your first level in a class.

Racial HD are no class, so they don't get into the calculation of Favored Class.
Suropej
09-24-07, 12:57 PM So if I wanted to, I could start with no racial HD, make him a lvl 1 whatever class, and only have the +5 LA?

He'd start as an ECL 7 :: lvl 6 outsider, lvl 1 class with just 1 die of the class' hit-points + Con?

Or just a lvl 1 class because he has no Racial HD?
Naderion
09-24-07, 01:25 PM Technically, you could skip all the racial HD and start right away with a 1st level character and LA +5. The biggest problem would be the DM, I think. There are very good reasons why he might not allow it, because for example a 1 HD Storm giant just doesn't make sense. But when the DM allows it, you could say that the Hound Archon in the MM has just taken 6 levels of "Soldier of Celestia" and your personal hound archon did not. If the DM agrees with it, that would be a totaly acceptable way of handling it.

But it could all be quite imbalanced. If you really start all at level 6 and you have 1 HD and the other members of the Party have 6 HD and you fight CR 6 and greater monsters, you'd have to face them with just 8 hp or something like that which would practially be unplayable, no matter how many other cool abilities you get for your LA. As a rule of thumb, I wouldn't try to play a character that has more LA than HD to beginn with. When you want to play a Hound Archon, you should talk to your DM that everyone starts at level 11 or greater.
Empirate
09-25-07, 09:14 AM You can play a Hound Archon at lower levels than 11 by using the racial class in Savage Species. It stretches six hit dice, according feats and skills, and all ability bonuses and spell-likes and stuff over 11 levels.
I'm very much opposed to allowing races that usually have LA AND racial HD to be played with just the LA and NO racial HD: Part of the balancing of LA comes from the (usually sucky) racial HD. Outsider HD are actually quite good - but the loss of class features hurts a lot. This way, a Hound Archon can get away with just +5 LA. If he didn't have racial HD, he'd be at least +6 LA. And, for the reasons mentioned by Naderion, quite unplayable.
Sunblast
09-25-07, 09:34 AM Don't forget about the hound archon monster class in the Planar Handbook. That's what I'm using to make my hound archon knight. :D
runestar
09-25-07, 09:43 AM Don't forget about the hound archon monster class in the Planar Handbook. That's what I'm using to make my hound archon knight.

Do note that said entry can be somewhat misleading for players not familiar with how the ECL system works. The bonus feats mentioned are not really bonus extra feats, but simply the normal feats you get from its 1st, 3rd and 6th racial HD.
Sunblast
09-25-07, 09:49 AM Do note that said entry can be somewhat misleading for players not familiar with how the ECL system works. The bonus feats mentioned are not really bonus extra feats, but simply the normal feats you get from its 1st, 3rd and 6th racial HD.
Yeah, no kidding. Those things threw me through a loop for quite some time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
chefcyric23 09-14-07, 07:59 AM	My group is in the attempt to play something difference for once. And planning on it being a high lvl campain. Probably start off at lvl 20 or so. Im just wonderin if a hound archon would be able to play as a monk or a cleric? I dont see why it wouldnt be able to do either one. Monk alone would probably be a really good class for it. And just for the heck of it, what about a hound rogue? Its not really that big. And I could see its padded feet being really good at sneaking. Also, where exactly do they come from? Since they are celestial, do they have parents. Or a bloodline of any sort like that? Thats mostly a question to use in my background. Thanks for any help.
Naderion 09-14-07, 08:25 AM	Sure, there's no reason not to make such a character. As Lawful Good outsiders, Archons come from the Plane of celestia by default, but other settings may have other places of origin for them. At least demons often get spawned by the abyss itself, but I'm not completely sure if this does happen in celestia as well. But on all planes, many outsiders are in fact mortal souls that have died and become an inhabitant of the planes in death. On celestia, they start as Lantern Archons, but when they have archieved a greater status of understanding and living good and order, they transform into hound archons.
chefcyric23 09-14-07, 08:53 AM	Next question, it says he would start out as a lvl 5 outsider with a base attack of +6 and +5 in all 3 saves. When I go to give him monk, how would I calculate that? Or would I just end up following the monk BA?
j3st3r 09-14-07, 10:54 AM	just follow the monks BAB and add the hound archons to it (just like you would do it when multiclassing). BTW, I'm actually playing lawful good hound archon monk, who doesn't kill anyone delibirately and mostly only does nonlethal damage to opponents. He doesn't use any weapons except his hands and never uses his bite attack (but slam he does ;)). His also omnibenevolence by nature: All creatures, even the most hideously evil, deserve the chance to make amends for past misdeeds and join the side of light. Of course you must fight evil, but if there is a chance an evil creature could be redeemed, you must show mercy. You are always willing to give foes the benefit of the doubt if they promise to reform, no matter how many times the celestial has been betrayed. Before my character became hound archon, he was a solamnian knight who died beside his comrades fighting Takhisis himself. After the death Paladine himself reincarnated me and my companions (without the memory of the life before) as archons, guardians, and eladrins to Outlands to solve the disputes between different celestials so that they could join together to fight the fiends that are gathering forces in alarming quantities. Well that's in a nutshell of a campaign (well 2 actually) that has lasted 6 years for now and we all have had a blast. P.S. I know about the Vow feats from the Book of Exalted deeds, but since I found about them just recently, i haven't seriously thought about them, even they might fit well to the character (and they might narrow too much how I can play may character or how others can play).
Empirate 09-21-07, 12:15 PM	Just remember that Hound Archons have huge LA and racial HD. Monk is a class that really suffers from these things, almost as much as casters. I'd go with something less complicated, such as Paladin, or if you really want to be Monk-ish, go for the Sacred Fist PrC. A bit of Cleric with the right Domain choices and you're set to go for it! Have a look at this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#houndArchon)to see where you can go.
Suropej 09-24-07, 12:45 PM	Actually the Hound Archon starts with 6 lvls of outsider ( no big deal of a difference from your five, but more accurate). I've been thinking of making one too, but had a couple of questions: 1. When creating a new archon at the lowest lvl it can be would it be just a lvl 6 outsider or a lvl 6 outsider and lvl 1 ranger (favored class) ? 2. Would the lvls in outsider count against multiclassing? So if I was to make a hound archon fighter or monk (as chef wants to do), would he take the exp. penalty because neither outsider nor monk is a favored class? I think that's it for now.
Naderion 09-24-07, 12:50 PM	As a pc, with no class level, you would have 0 HD and therefore 0 hp, 0 skill points, 0 feats and stuff like that. So they just have to have at least 1 level at the start. Most Monster Races do have racial HD, so they do work without class levels and I would allow to start without them. As a Hound Archon, you start with 6 racial HD and LA +5, so you would have to start with an 11th level character and 55.000 XP. At 66.000 XP, you could take your first level in a class. Racial HD are no class, so they don't get into the calculation of Favored Class.
Suropej 09-24-07, 12:57 PM	So if I wanted to, I could start with no racial HD, make him a lvl 1 whatever class, and only have the +5 LA? He'd start as an ECL 7 :: lvl 6 outsider, lvl 1 class with just 1 die of the class' hit-points + Con? Or just a lvl 1 class because he has no Racial HD?
Naderion 09-24-07, 01:25 PM	Technically, you could skip all the racial HD and start right away with a 1st level character and LA +5. The biggest problem would be the DM, I think. There are very good reasons why he might not allow it, because for example a 1 HD Storm giant just doesn't make sense. But when the DM allows it, you could say that the Hound Archon in the MM has just taken 6 levels of "Soldier of Celestia" and your personal hound archon did not. If the DM agrees with it, that would be a totaly acceptable way of handling it. But it could all be quite imbalanced. If you really start all at level 6 and you have 1 HD and the other members of the Party have 6 HD and you fight CR 6 and greater monsters, you'd have to face them with just 8 hp or something like that which would practially be unplayable, no matter how many other cool abilities you get for your LA. As a rule of thumb, I wouldn't try to play a character that has more LA than HD to beginn with. When you want to play a Hound Archon, you should talk to your DM that everyone starts at level 11 or greater.
Empirate 09-25-07, 09:14 AM	You can play a Hound Archon at lower levels than 11 by using the racial class in Savage Species. It stretches six hit dice, according feats and skills, and all ability bonuses and spell-likes and stuff over 11 levels. I'm very much opposed to allowing races that usually have LA AND racial HD to be played with just the LA and NO racial HD: Part of the balancing of LA comes from the (usually sucky) racial HD. Outsider HD are actually quite good - but the loss of class features hurts a lot. This way, a Hound Archon can get away with just +5 LA. If he didn't have racial HD, he'd be at least +6 LA. And, for the reasons mentioned by Naderion, quite unplayable.
Sunblast 09-25-07, 09:34 AM	Don't forget about the hound archon monster class in the Planar Handbook. That's what I'm using to make my hound archon knight. :D
runestar 09-25-07, 09:43 AM	Don't forget about the hound archon monster class in the Planar Handbook. That's what I'm using to make my hound archon knight. Do note that said entry can be somewhat misleading for players not familiar with how the ECL system works. The bonus feats mentioned are not really bonus extra feats, but simply the normal feats you get from its 1st, 3rd and 6th racial HD.
Sunblast 09-25-07, 09:49 AM	Do note that said entry can be somewhat misleading for players not familiar with how the ECL system works. The bonus feats mentioned are not really bonus extra feats, but simply the normal feats you get from its 1st, 3rd and 6th racial HD. Yeah, no kidding. Those things threw me through a loop for quite some time.