Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Narris 03-31-07, 03:04 AM	archon will punch through damage resistance, has aura of menace, continous protection from evil, detect evil, spell resistance, damage resistance, higher ac and can teleport with out error if the rakshasa tries to run for it rakshasa has detect thoughts, sorcerer spells, can disguise itself. it's damage reduction is useless against the archon's attacks which are good-aligned. It's spell resistance is useless as the archon has no spells that it'll be resisting
Torack 03-31-07, 03:47 AM	What's your point? Who will win? A Hound Archon is CR 4, a Rakshasha is CR 10. You do the math...
Dragonteuthis 03-31-07, 04:28 AM	Actually in the case of a one-on-one of a Hound Archon and a Rakshasa, the Hound Archon has the edge. He can teleport right up to the rakshasa (who, I might add, can't ever get through the archon's damage reduction with his natural attacks*), and then start grappling the next round (even without Improved Grapple, the Rakshasa's attacks of opportunity won't stop the attempt, because they'll deal no damage). The standard spell list of a Rakshasa is also almost weak against the Hound Archon. Suggestion is useless against a Hound Archon, so he's either reduced to using Melf's acid arrow and magic missile, or using haste and invisibility to escape (might not even work because of the Hound Archon's scent ability). Whether the Hound Archon could kill the Rakshasa or not before he escapes is open to debate, but in a one-on-one, it's pretty clear that the Rakshasa would be in trouble. However, such a fight would be rare, if it happened at all. Rakshasa are notorious for surrounding themselves with minions and concealing their true nature. A Rakshasa caught alone with a Hound Archon is frankly asking for the beating he's about to receive. *footnote: a really, really lucky ciritical hit with the Rakshasa's bite attack *could* get through damage reduction.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-31-07, 06:30 AM	Yes, the hound archon is likely to cause the rakshasa grief despite being quite a bit lower in CR. This is because CR's are calibrated on the basis of a typical party of adventurers fighting the creature, not that creature fighting another creature. So no, The CRs aren't wrong. The rakshasa is going to be a lot more problematic for the average adventuring party.
snakeman830 03-31-07, 05:34 PM	Last I checked, the Rakshasa has DR15/good AND piercing. A greatsword (even a holy one) won't overcome that. Granted, a rakshasa won't deal any damage with attacks, but niether will the archon. As for the spells, a rakshasa only needs to roll a 9 or higher to effect the archon, a 55% chance. The aura of menace is overcome by a 10 or higher, a 50% chance. I am not figuring in the MCAE into this, but I don't believe it affects any of the things I've mentioned (my PHB is on loan). Overall, the rakshasa actually has the advantage due to its spells.
im_robertb 03-31-07, 05:59 PM	A bite attack deals piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage. Thus, it bypasses a Rakshasa's DR. The Hound Archon will likely win initiative. If he is not close enough to move+grapple, he'll have to Teleport Without Error or make a charge attack if possible. But if the Hound Archon can grapple and get in bite attacks, he can damage the Rakshasa, who probably can't stop him from grappling with his spells (other than invisibility).
Dragonteuthis 03-31-07, 10:24 PM	Overall, the rakshasa actually has the advantage due to its spells. Unless the Hound Archon is unlucky, the Rakshasa will only be getting one, maybe two spells off, though, so the spells aren't much of an advantage.
snakeman830 04-01-07, 05:23 PM	two words: Combat Casting The equal grapple modifiers mean the rakshasa has a good chance of breaking free, therefore casting a spell. I know I'm going against the popular vote, but I see no reason the Archon should have a clear victory. The bite just won't do enough damage fast enough before the Rakasa launches it's spells.
Banatine 04-01-07, 05:43 PM	i always thought that the archons and stuff like that were more powerful than their challenge rating indicated, to make the encounter more memorable. either way, Rakshasa are evil, and the Archon is good. He will bypass the rakshasa's DR with his greatsword, by virtue of all his attacks being good-aligned. give him <ability X> that lets him use it while grappled, and BANG! Also, if the Hound Archon knew he was fighting a Rakshasa, he would probably have the mage slayer feat, so that it couldn't cast defensively. then its boogerd.
El_Machinae 04-01-07, 06:47 PM	I wonder how much harder it is for a soul to progress to the Hound Archon level compared to how hard it is to develop a Rakshasa to maturity?
snakeman830 04-01-07, 07:35 PM	[QUOTE=Banatine;11955245] either way, Rakshasa are evil, and the Archon is good. He will bypass the rakshasa's DR with his greatsword, by virtue of all his attacks being good-aligned. give him <ability X> that lets him use it while grappled, and BANG! QUOTE] Re-read the Rakshasa and Archon entries and pay more attention to them. Ok, here is an encounter I am actually performing as I write between the two using the best tactics for both. They start 100ft apart. Archon won initiative (with 23) Round 1 Archon teleports to Rakshasa's location. Since he has already used his standard action, he cannot attack. Rakshasa chooses Archon for dodge bonus to AC (AC=22). Makes a 21 on the Will save for Aura of menace, so is unaffected. Casts defensively and casts invisibility. Moves 40ft away. Round 2 Archon has no way to tell where Rakshasa went, so uses detect evil. He guessed right on the area and moves in that general direction, since Detect evil cannot pinpoint on round 1. Fights defensively. Rakshasa casts mage armor (AC=26) and moves 40ft again. Since it has done nothing offensively, it does not reappear. Round 3 Archon: repeat of round 1 Rakshasa casts shield (AC=30) and moves 40ft. Round 4 Archon: repeat of round 1 Rakshasa casts haste (AC=31) and moves 70ft further away from the archon, putting it out of the 60ft range of Detect Evil. Round 5 Archon: having no lead, uses total defense action. Rakshasa casts Melf's acid arrow and hits archon for 3 damage (this will last for 7 more rounds). Rakshasa is now visible. Hound Archon is now at 30hp Round 6 Archon charges Rakshasa and attempts a grapple. Both get 20 on grapple checks, so attempt fails. Rakshasa’s Acid Arrow does 3 more damage (6 rounds to go) Rakshasa moves 70ft and casts another Acid arrow, dealing another 4 damage (7 rounds) Hound Archon is at 23/33 hp Rakshasa is at 52/52 hp Round 7 Arhon again charges Rakshasa, attempting another grapple. Archon gets 15, Rakshasa gets 14. Grapple begins. Raksha’s first acid arrow does 2 more damage (5 rounds to go) Raksha’s second acid arrow does 6 more damage (6 rounds to go) Rakshasa attempts to escape grapple, gets 20. Archon gets 14. Rakshasa moves another 70ft away Archon is at 15/33hp Rakshasa is at 52/52hp Round 8 Archon charges rakshasa, gives up trying to grapple and attempts a bite attack. Attack roll is 15, rakshasa’s AC = 31 1st acid arrow does 6 more damage (4 rounds to go) 2nd acid arrow deals 3 more damage (5 rounds to go) Rakshasa casts another Acid Arrow dealing 6 damage (7 rounds) Archon is at 0/33 hp and unconscious Rakshasa is at 52/52 hp Round 9 Archon is unconscious, but stable 1st acid arrow deals 5 more damage 2nd acid arrow deals 7 more damage 3rd acid arrow deals 7 more damage Archon is at -19/33hp Rakshasa is at 52/52hp Yeah, an Archon will always win all right. I did actually roll everything, so no complaining that this isn’t what would actually happen.
Narris 04-01-07, 08:40 PM	Re-read the Rakshasa and Archon entries and pay more attention to them. Ok, here is an encounter I am actually performing as I write between the two using the best tactics for both. They start 100ft apart. Archon won initiative (with 23) Round 1 Archon teleports to Rakshasa's location. Since he has already used his standard action, he cannot attack. Rakshasa chooses Archon for dodge bonus to AC (AC=22). Makes a 21 on the Will save for Aura of menace, so is unaffected. Casts defensively and casts invisibility. Moves 40ft away. Round 2 Archon has no way to tell where Rakshasa went, so uses detect evil. He guessed right on the area and moves in that general direction, since Detect evil cannot pinpoint on round 1. Fights defensively. Rakshasa casts mage armor (AC=26) and moves 40ft again. Since it has done nothing offensively, it does not reappear. Round 3 Archon: repeat of round 1 Rakshasa casts shield (AC=30) and moves 40ft. Round 4 Archon: repeat of round 1 Rakshasa casts haste (AC=31) and moves 70ft further away from the archon, putting it out of the 60ft range of Detect Evil. Round 5 Archon: having no lead, uses total defense action. Rakshasa casts Melf's acid arrow and hits archon for 3 damage (this will last for 7 more rounds). Rakshasa is now visible. Hound Archon is now at 30hp Round 6 Archon charges Rakshasa and attempts a grapple. Both get 20 on grapple checks, so attempt fails. Rakshasa’s Acid Arrow does 3 more damage (6 rounds to go) Rakshasa moves 70ft and casts another Acid arrow, dealing another 4 damage (7 rounds) Hound Archon is at 23/33 hp Rakshasa is at 52/52 hp Round 7 Arhon again charges Rakshasa, attempting another grapple. Archon gets 15, Rakshasa gets 14. Grapple begins. Raksha’s first acid arrow does 2 more damage (5 rounds to go) Raksha’s second acid arrow does 6 more damage (6 rounds to go) Rakshasa attempts to escape grapple, gets 20. Archon gets 14. Rakshasa moves another 70ft away Archon is at 15/33hp Rakshasa is at 52/52hp Round 8 Archon charges rakshasa, gives up trying to grapple and attempts a bite attack. Attack roll is 15, rakshasa’s AC = 31 1st acid arrow does 6 more damage (4 rounds to go) 2nd acid arrow deals 3 more damage (5 rounds to go) Rakshasa casts another Acid Arrow dealing 6 damage (7 rounds) Archon is at 0/33 hp and unconscious Rakshasa is at 52/52 hp Round 9 Archon is unconscious, but stable 1st acid arrow deals 5 more damage 2nd acid arrow deals 7 more damage 3rd acid arrow deals 7 more damage Archon is at -19/33hp Rakshasa is at 52/52hp Yeah, an Archon will always win all right. I did actually roll everything, so no complaining that this isn’t what would actually happen. Round 1: Rakshasa has to make a concentration check against archon's attack of opportunity. Round 2: The archon has scent, plus listen. No need to fight defensively. He can attack the rakshasa. Round 3:Attack Round 4: Attack Round 5: Attack Round 6: Attack Keep it up. Oh, and the Archon has aid at will. Temporary hp. And he could have teleported anytime. Or changed into a dire wolf and used the large size to win a grapple, after tripping the rakshasa. You hit the archon with drain intelligence?
snakeman830 04-02-07, 06:13 PM	All rolls not listed were successes. The rakshasa began by casting defensively (that is mentioned in the synopsis), easily succeeding on the DC 13 concentration check to do so (it didn't even have to roll). Neither listen nor scent could pinpoint the rakshasa form that distance. If the archon teleported, it could not attack in the same turn (as both take a standard action), thus giving the Rakshasa a free round. Similar things would have occored if the archon had changed shape (a standard action) or cast aid (also a standard action) (wow, 1D8 temp hp. That won't last long against three acid arrows) Spell resistance never came into play. Besides, I thought this was a fight to the death. Face it, sometimes, you can be wrong.
malignor 04-03-07, 02:24 PM	Ummmm... Under Acid Arrow... For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for another round, dealing another 2d4 points of damage in that round. Each acid arrow only lasts 2 rounds after the initial hit (6d4 total) - The Archon has scent, and as soon as he's within 30', knows the direction of the Rakshasa. Then at 5', knows the square. I dunno about you, but if the Rakshasa left "thattaway" from my field of scent, I would move exactly 40' in that direction (a move action). At 40', I am adjacent to 35' and 45', and have another 30' radius of scent to inform me of the foe's direction after leaving my scent radius (in case he changed directions). It's tactically sound. By sheer coincidence it would also allow the Hound Archon 2 rounds of attacks. You were playing the Archon dumb. - The Archon would grapple in Dire Wolf form. Why grapple as a medium creature when you can grapple as a large one? Plus getting a +10 to your land speed and a few more squares of scent is a nice treat. You were playing the Archon dumb. - Ever hear of an action called "hold action?" Like, for example, when facing a foe you can't see, you hold a charge action (charge to grapple - the in-game equivalent of a tackle) for "when the enemy betrays his location". You were playing the Archon dumb. - When you beat the enemy's Move Silently check with a listen check by 20 or more, you can pinpoint their square. Hound Archons have listen +10. Hearing the casting of a spell is listen DC 0. So, every round that the Rakshasa casts a spell (which is every round) the Archon can make a reactive listen check DC 20+1 per 10' of distance, to pinpoint the square. At 40', the Archon has a 30% chance. At 70' the archon has a 15% chance. This falls into play for the hold-action tactic. If you didn't roll those, you were cheating on behalf of the Rakshasa. - Another tactic which is really useful is using Continual Light. When the Rakshasa goes invisible, this shows that he has the advantage of stealth. By charging up with continual light (a touch spell, hold the charge, no SR, no save), the Archon can use his next chance to touch the Rakshasa and make him a light source. An invisible light source still sheds light, so the Archon just charges toward the center of the light radius and his scent will tell him which exact square to attack by the time he gets there, invisible foe or not. You were playing the Archon dumb. - Any round where the Archon has a chance to prep before a combat, he should be imbuing himself with Aid. You were playing the Archon dumb. - Hound Archons also have +9 to Hide (and Rakshasas +11 to spot, so it's 60/40). Even as a dire wolf (the +4 radial bonus from the alternate form offsets the size penalty). What terrain were they in? Was there no place for concealment or cover, y'know for hiding, miss chance or AC bonuses against the spellcaster? Hiding during movement is a non-action. You were playing the Archon dumb. - Hound Archons are built as stalkers. They have scent, a good survival skill and the Track feat, and decent hide/move silently and spot/listen. Teleporting in on round 1, instead of casting Aid and moving behind cover, is retarded. Just because the word "greatsword" is in a creature listing, doesn't mean it's a fighter. Hide, buff, track, hunt, observe, kill.
snakeman830 04-03-07, 03:10 PM	Did the Archon ever use the greatsword? I believe the Rakshasa still had the greater speed (70ft) regardless of what form the archon was in, so it could always outpace. As for the acid arrows, so one more would have been thrown. whoop-dee-do. Hold-action. Fine, so the archon would have waited anyway, still giving the rakshasa those turns Once the Archon revealed itself too far away for even a charge, what would it have done? teleported and given the rakshasa another free-turn? Don't think so. Besides. I was just using the Archon tactics you thought would surely win the battle. Then you changed them as soon as I posted how that would have turned out. Not my fault you are a bunch of whiners.
malignor 04-03-07, 03:25 PM	News flash. The last post I put up there was my first and only post. I'm not a whiner. I'm just saying you have proven that a Rakshasa can conceivably beat a retarded Hound Archon who doesn't know his own abilities. Good job in proving the obvious.
snakeman830 04-03-07, 04:43 PM	So it is. Despite this, even with the Archon being played at the best of its abilities, there is no way they would win 100% of the time as everyone here is suggesting. A caster will beat a bruiser most of the time, even if the bruiser is as sneaky as you are suggesting (especially if the caster is a higher level). This has been proven over and over again. sure, the Hound Archon is tougher to beat than your average same-level bruiser, especially for a rakshasa. It just doesn't have the advantege you are all claiming.
malignor 04-03-07, 05:12 PM	I agree with you there. It just isn't so one-sided either way. I'd say they're a match for each other, what with the Rakshasa's deceptiveness and ranged magical combat, versus the Hound's DR, tracking abilities and "little gimmicks". The Hound Archon can win if it gets the surprise round and is close enough. Otherwise it's a big cat & mouse game (or more like cat & dog, I guess). May the best strategist win. Both creatures are not built for a gladiatorial arena. It's a holy, teleporting, hunter versus a sorcerous shapeshifting manipulator. It really depends who gets the jump on who, and that's what these guys are really about. But, let's say a character uses Planar Ally/Binding to call up a Hound Archon against a Rakshasa? It's an ideal choice. A Hound Archon teamed up with the 9th level caster who summoned it would be a solid bet against a Rakshasa who has been unveiled.