How much ecl is too much? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How much ecl is too much? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
qlawdat
07-13-07, 08:31 PM So my DM was talking about having a short campaign where you have to have a character race that has an ecl, really just to mix things up. While I don't know if we will every actually play such a game it got me thinking about ecl. Briefly reading through the MM I was looking for some interesting creatures with a reasonable ECl. And it seems that most creatures have pretty uninteresting abilities ie; some bonuses to stats, maybe darkvision, and a few bonuses to various skills maybe. So my question is how often is the ECL actually worth it? If a creature has an ECl of say +6, how often is that really worth six character levels? For this question I would have to assume that you probably would want to play a melee class or a stealth/skill oriented class. I assume this because every level of caster level that you give up is a HUGE loss, a much bigger loss then a few levels of a melee class.

So what monsters are really worth their ECL (and their monster levels)? Does it get worse or better with higher ECLs? What are some ways to make the most of having an ECL race?
archerpwr
07-13-07, 08:56 PM There are very few things worth ECL. A couple that are: goliath (RoS), mineral warrior (underdark), feral (SS), and lolth touched (MM4) for melee. For skills dark(ToM) is about it.
locustechpriest
07-13-07, 09:06 PM qlawdat, you probably know what these terms mean, but in the case that you don't:

ECL = effective character level, this is determined by adding LA and HD, both racial and those from class levels.

LA = level adjustment, this is a number given with a creature's entry, providing a relative measure of power against other pc races.

Your use of terminology was a bit difficult to follow since races do not have an ECL, they have LA. Ususally only individual characters are said to have an ECL.
dirkformica
07-13-07, 09:55 PM Sylph out of Monster Manual II is a somewhat decent caster at ECL 8 (3 Outsider HD and +5 LA.) Casts as a Sorcerer of HD +4 so you'll only be 1 level behind a normal Sorc for casting, although lack of actual HD will hurt. But Improved Invis at will, Small size, 90' (Good) flight, Outsider type, Summon Large elemental 1x per day as Summon Monster VI, -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +4 int, +4 wis, and +6 Cha are all pretty decent.
qlawdat
07-13-07, 11:02 PM Thanks for pointing out my missuse. Yeah you could pretty much replace anytime I said ECL with LA, my bad.
Master_Verhoffin
07-13-07, 11:17 PM Sylph out of Monster Manual II is a somewhat decent caster at ECL 8 (3 Outsider HD and +5 LA.) Casts as a Sorcerer of HD +4 so you'll only be 1 level behind a normal Sorc for casting, although lack of actual HD will hurt. But Improved Invis at will, Small size, 90' (Good) flight, Outsider type, Summon Large elemental 1x per day as Summon Monster VI, -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +4 int, +4 wis, and +6 Cha are all pretty decent.

Hmm....Sylph is actually pretty decent. Where are you getting the +5 LA from, though? I see CR 5 but no LA listed.
ArochanoX
07-13-07, 11:52 PM Sylph's LA can be found from MM2 update booklet found from wotc website. There are also other interesting options like rakshashas (for mediocre casting and huge SR), petals (MM3, for skill goodness and tinyness), maug (FF, ultimate combat construct), ethergaunts (FF, brokenly good arcane spellcasters), saint template (BoED, for immunities and other goodness). Etc Etc Etc.

There are many races. Some have some abilities that you like and some have abilities you don't like. Pick those races you like and evaluate the LA and ECL. If the race's ECL is low enough to take, play it!
runestar
07-13-07, 11:58 PM I find that centaurs make good fighters for their ECL. Astral deva and ghaele can be worthy of their ECL20 as well, if you can find a SS progression for them. The list of monsters worthy of their ECL are rare and far apart, but they do exist.:)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
qlawdat 07-13-07, 08:31 PM	So my DM was talking about having a short campaign where you have to have a character race that has an ecl, really just to mix things up. While I don't know if we will every actually play such a game it got me thinking about ecl. Briefly reading through the MM I was looking for some interesting creatures with a reasonable ECl. And it seems that most creatures have pretty uninteresting abilities ie; some bonuses to stats, maybe darkvision, and a few bonuses to various skills maybe. So my question is how often is the ECL actually worth it? If a creature has an ECl of say +6, how often is that really worth six character levels? For this question I would have to assume that you probably would want to play a melee class or a stealth/skill oriented class. I assume this because every level of caster level that you give up is a HUGE loss, a much bigger loss then a few levels of a melee class. So what monsters are really worth their ECL (and their monster levels)? Does it get worse or better with higher ECLs? What are some ways to make the most of having an ECL race?
archerpwr 07-13-07, 08:56 PM	There are very few things worth ECL. A couple that are: goliath (RoS), mineral warrior (underdark), feral (SS), and lolth touched (MM4) for melee. For skills dark(ToM) is about it.
locustechpriest 07-13-07, 09:06 PM	qlawdat, you probably know what these terms mean, but in the case that you don't: ECL = effective character level, this is determined by adding LA and HD, both racial and those from class levels. LA = level adjustment, this is a number given with a creature's entry, providing a relative measure of power against other pc races. Your use of terminology was a bit difficult to follow since races do not have an ECL, they have LA. Ususally only individual characters are said to have an ECL.
dirkformica 07-13-07, 09:55 PM	Sylph out of Monster Manual II is a somewhat decent caster at ECL 8 (3 Outsider HD and +5 LA.) Casts as a Sorcerer of HD +4 so you'll only be 1 level behind a normal Sorc for casting, although lack of actual HD will hurt. But Improved Invis at will, Small size, 90' (Good) flight, Outsider type, Summon Large elemental 1x per day as Summon Monster VI, -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +4 int, +4 wis, and +6 Cha are all pretty decent.
qlawdat 07-13-07, 11:02 PM	Thanks for pointing out my missuse. Yeah you could pretty much replace anytime I said ECL with LA, my bad.
Master_Verhoffin 07-13-07, 11:17 PM	Sylph out of Monster Manual II is a somewhat decent caster at ECL 8 (3 Outsider HD and +5 LA.) Casts as a Sorcerer of HD +4 so you'll only be 1 level behind a normal Sorc for casting, although lack of actual HD will hurt. But Improved Invis at will, Small size, 90' (Good) flight, Outsider type, Summon Large elemental 1x per day as Summon Monster VI, -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +4 int, +4 wis, and +6 Cha are all pretty decent. Hmm....Sylph is actually pretty decent. Where are you getting the +5 LA from, though? I see CR 5 but no LA listed.
ArochanoX 07-13-07, 11:52 PM	Sylph's LA can be found from MM2 update booklet found from wotc website. There are also other interesting options like rakshashas (for mediocre casting and huge SR), petals (MM3, for skill goodness and tinyness), maug (FF, ultimate combat construct), ethergaunts (FF, brokenly good arcane spellcasters), saint template (BoED, for immunities and other goodness). Etc Etc Etc. There are many races. Some have some abilities that you like and some have abilities you don't like. Pick those races you like and evaluate the LA and ECL. If the race's ECL is low enough to take, play it!
runestar 07-13-07, 11:58 PM	I find that centaurs make good fighters for their ECL. Astral deva and ghaele can be worthy of their ECL20 as well, if you can find a SS progression for them. The list of monsters worthy of their ECL are rare and far apart, but they do exist.:)