How much is flight worth? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How much is flight worth? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gumbo T
03-19-08, 03:06 PM I'm working on a campaign with all homebrew races. They'll all be LA +0, but all will be more powerful than the PHB races. Some will start out with flight speeds. Others will not. I'm unsure how to balance this.

1. Say you have a race with a fly speed of 30 (average) with no ability score adjustments. Would this be roughly equal to a +4 Con, +2 Wis race with no flight? Or should the adjustments be higher to balance this out?

2. How much do things change is the speed is 30 (perfect)?

3. How many feats is a fly speed of 30 (average) worth?

Thanks!
jradd777
03-19-08, 09:11 PM Have you started to do any homework on this yet (beyond just asking on the boards)?

You can probably make a decent judgment by checking out the Winged template (Savage Species), winged creatures (their LA compared to similar creatures without wings, etc). Maybe you could suggest some things, propose a few races to be compared, weighed, balanced off each other.

It all depends on several things, I think. Do these races with wings just get wings... or abilities that work really well with wings also... or other abilities that don't work very well with wings? (Do the wings hamper the creature in anyway as a drawback? Can they only be used in very circumstantial situations?)
key
03-20-08, 01:28 AM 1. I think that's a pretty fair tradeoff.
2. Then give the other race(s) another +2 to an ability score.
3. There are epic feats that give a +1 to an ability score. If you say flight is worth +4 to Con and +2 to Wis, then that means 6 feats.
arangatang
03-20-08, 01:38 AM How about:

Generic Flying Guy

-2 Dex, -2 Con
Flight 30 ft (poor maneuverability)

Too weak?
Gumbo T
03-20-08, 10:13 AM Thanks for the help, everybody. The flying race has no real drawbacks associated with flight, but no other abilities that particularly synergize with it, either.

I took jradd's advice and had a look at savage species, comparing the winged template to the reptilian and insectoid templates, all of which are LA +2. The ability mods were about the same, and it seemed like the insectoids and reptilians got about seven feats worth of "stuff" while the winged template got flight. Going by key's notion that +1 to an ability mod is worth about a feat, it looks like I'm in the right ballpark with +6 to abilities as a fair alternative to flight.

Arangtang, that flying man might actually be fun to play.

Thanks again!
qwerty1
03-20-08, 10:21 AM Gumbo T: Look in the Races of the Wild. The section on Raptorans they are LA +0 and have fly speeds (Glide for the first 4 HD) of average mobility.
WackyOne
03-20-08, 10:38 AM Also, look at Race of the Dragons: Kobolds can get Flight at lvl 6 for a couple of feats and, of course, being Kobolds... and that's a drawback, even with all the "Kobold Power" in that book.
runestar
03-20-08, 10:38 AM Flight is too strong to allow at 1st lv, of moderate use at mid levels (when you start accessing spells which grant limited flight), and pretty much useless at higher lvs (where wings of flying are cheap and commonplace).

So it is difficult to determine a ballpark LA to accurately price it as its value will decrease as you level. To avoid screwing yourself in the long run, you may want to adapt the raptorans and introduce some sort of limited flight which slowly improves as you level.:)
Alxdude
03-20-08, 10:59 AM one thing about flight... it is fairly easy to get by spellcasters by level 5 (and with 60 speed), but a bonus to an ability score will be useful up to 20 often... flying with a speed of 30 at average maneuverability is not really all that useful except maybe for the first few sessions

broom of flying: 17,000 gp http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#broomofFlying
periapt of wisdom +4: 16,000 gp (and this stacks with racial ability)
wings of flying: 54,000 gp http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#wingsofFlying

how often do you think: hey, I wish I had flying for that fight? and how often do you say: hey, I wish my spell DC was 3 higher or my attack or damage was 3 higher or I had 20 more hitpoints or my saving throw was 3 higher?
Chaosepoch
03-20-08, 04:58 PM one thing about flight... it is fairly easy to get by spellcasters by level 5 (and with 60 speed), but a bonus to an ability score will be useful up to 20 often... flying with a speed of 30 at average maneuverability is not really all that useful except maybe for the first few sessions

broom of flying: 17,000 gp http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#broomofFlying
periapt of wisdom +4: 16,000 gp (and this stacks with racial ability)
wings of flying: 54,000 gp http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#wingsofFlying

how often do you think: hey, I wish I had flying for that fight? and how often do you say: hey, I wish my spell DC was 3 higher or my attack or damage was 3 higher or I had 20 more hitpoints or my saving throw was 3 higher?

Really it depends on your DM and campaign here. If your DM is a fan of the dungeon crawl, it's useless without perfect maneuverability. However, compare it to something set in a 'sandstorm' desert-like campaign, it's worth its weight in platinum...

And hey, I've been stuck on top of a castle surrounded by enemies storming the lower levels. There was a catapult and I seriously considered it... 5 stories falling damage, broken by the trees or 60-80 undead warriors
Krusk
03-20-08, 06:53 PM Have you looked at raptorians in races of the wild? delete their name and flavor text and insert your own. Now you've got a custom flying race.

I honestly think they are quite balanced, even if i do detest them for purly fluff reasons.
arangatang
03-20-08, 10:21 PM Generic Flying Chap

-2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis
Flight 30 ft (poor manuerverability)

Balanced for first level?
M-bark
03-21-08, 08:15 AM Generic Flying Chap

-2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis
Flight 30 ft (poor manuerverability)

Balanced for first level?

For first level, that might be balanced, but at level 8+ or about there, it's a total disadvantage. By the time you hit level 20, you pretty much suck compared to others.
jradd777
03-21-08, 02:05 PM M-Bark makes a good point... You need something that will change over levels, somehow... or some racial feats to enhance themselves? I'm not sure.
Nephlite
03-21-08, 02:43 PM Generic Flying Chap

-2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis
Flight 30 ft (poor manuerverability)

Balanced for first level?

What you need is for the flight to improve by level as well:

Level 5, the Flight increases for poor to average.
Level 10, flight increaase from average to good.
Level 15, flight increases from good to perfect.

There with the -2 to three scores that is balanced.
Eikre
03-21-08, 03:57 PM 3. There are epic feats that give a +1 to an ability score. If you say flight is worth +4 to Con and +2 to Wis, then that means 6 feats.

This is terrible logic that illustrates the worst affinities of the layman's balancing logic.

Let's try this another way. There is a feat that gives you +3 HP. If you say a dwarf is worth item is worth +2 CON, then at level 6, that means two feats. At level 18, it means six! A level 18 character can buy a 16,000gp item and gain 12 feats instantly. Twelve Toughnesses and a Great Fortitude. That's pocket change! A Fighter's entire list of class features, at level 18! Actually, I think I'll take a Wizard's at 18, thanks.

And we just bartered 16,000gp for full spellcasting with ninth level spells, using your technique in a direction heading away from screwing the player, instead of towards.

These discrepancies in purchasing power exist everywhere in the game. This isn't a point-buy game, and when you try and buy something with a resource that it's not compatible with, there's this stupid, draconian fee and you're expected to thank them for the privilege. A magic item that doesn't fit into it's arbitrary slot costs 150% of what the normal one does. If you want to buy a Doppelganger's mighty abilities scores, you have to give up four levels to LA, and sacrifice four tasty class levels to crappy monster HD. Is it worth it? Absolutely not.

What you need is for the flight to improve by level as well:

Level 5, the Flight increases for poor to average.
Level 10, flight increaase from average to good.
Level 15, flight increases from good to perfect.

There with the -2 to three scores that is balanced.

Scaling is certainly the way to do this, and this isn't a terrible race. But the TC wanted a slightly more powerful base race than normal, and I don't think we've got it quite yet.

At level 5, the Raptorian has Flight in all combat situations with more speed, the option to make a dive attack, no racial ability penalties to the three survival stats, and some token class features. The only downside in relation to this guy is it's not unlimited... But the rest of the party is also without flight, so there's no real opportunity to fly for hours on end.

At level 10, the Raptorian has unlimited flight and so does the party. Flying Chap gets good maneuverability but no other advantages over the Raptorian.

At levels 1 and 15, the Flying Chap's comparison isn't as easy to draw, but at level 1 he's strongly impaired in survivability because all his little -1 modifiers actually make somewhat of a difference, and at level 15 race is mostly around to stand for something palpably cool that you can do innately, instead of casting or wearing, like everyone else is

I do think that impairing his survival stats is a good starting point. Less AC, HP, spot/listen, and saves are all well juxtaposed with untouchable status that comes with flying.

You want this guy to be better than the base races, right? Level 1 is fine. Give him back his stats and a bit of token maneuverability as time goes on.

As for original thought, and not just analysis, I posit that Flight is extremely irritating when you don't have it yourself, but as a DM, it's easy to arm your monsters with ranged attacks that are less effective. A masterwork sword that does 1d8 damage to the human is roughly analogous to the regular dart that does 1d6 damage to the Flying Chap. And combat will serve as a powerful equalizer, because a flying player can't leave his comrades while he flys away to go drink potions/drop rocks/cast 10-minute spells.

As the DM, you want to craft this race knowing that the player will be only about as effective as anyone else, but will sometimes lament his lack of other upsides, and sometimes exalt the interesting ability he has. Ultimately, the players look at their characters and compare themselves against themselves and the arbitrary standards for their level. You look at them and know that the levels are an illusion and that the comparison between the players is an illusion, because you decide where the next hostile spell is going and get to decide which slot it's going to be cast from. It's just that the illusion is what we're all striving for.
key
03-21-08, 11:02 PM If you say a dwarf is worth item is worth +2 CON, then at level 6, that means two feats.
This is terrible grammar, even for a layman such as yourself.
Captain_Kobold
03-21-08, 11:30 PM I'm working on a campaign with all homebrew races. They'll all be LA +0, but all will be more powerful than the PHB races. Some will start out with flight speeds. Others will not. I'm unsure how to balance this.
DM eyeballing is probably the best way to go on this. Have a look at the flying race as a whole compared to the others and think of how many challenging situations it the adventure you will be running will be made easier with the flight ability.

1. Say you have a race with a fly speed of 30 (average) with no ability score adjustments. Would this be roughly equal to a +4 Con, +2 Wis race with no flight? Or should the adjustments be higher to balance this out?
What level will the characters be starting at? At low levels flight is very useful. At higher levels, all it is doing is saving you an item slot, and items that give you flight may well be superior to the natural flight anyway. (See next point.)
2. How much do things change is the speed is 30 (perfect)?
Quite a bit. Perfect maneuverability is magical flight pure and simple. Nothing with wings should have it. Even Hummingbirds are not at this level. The creature can move through the air with ease in all three axis, unburdened by the laws of physics. They can also fly in areas that a creature that has to rely on wings could not, such as buildings.

3. How many feats is a fly speed of 30 (average) worth?
You can't really convert special abilities such as flight into a direct feat equivalent. Look at the race as a whole compared to the others in your setting.
Its also worth noting that any small or larger winged humanoid would likely not have average maneuverability at the lower levels. They would probably be at poor: the same level as birds of their equivalent size.
Best bet might be to start off as clumsy, going up to poor at around level 5, when the flight spell becomes available. Save further increases for the higher levels where continuously maintaining magical flight becomnes trivial.
Eikre
03-22-08, 12:44 AM This is terrible grammar, even for a layman such as yourself.

Originally, I was going to use the 16,000 gp item as an example. After moving some text around for more effective rhetoric, some of the original sentence was left.

If we're going to engage in an argumentum ad hominem, then I will permit you to correct your own benign oversights before we begin to revile each other pointlessly. Begin with your use of reflexive pronouns.

Technicalities of linguistics are hardly worthwhile, though. I propose a gentleman's agreement: If you wish attack me, like I have you, then I'll thank you for it later- if you teach me something. Barring that, you could make a witty remark. Then we'd be amused.
key
03-22-08, 01:01 AM if you teach me something
Lesson 1: Don't make personal attacks without expecting some in return.
Gumbo T
03-22-08, 08:05 PM Thanks again, everybody, for all the input. It's very much appreciated.

The point that the usefulness of flight is DM controlled is true and well taken. I just don't want the players (fliers or non-fliers) to feel they're getting a raw deal.

In truth, I played with a flight progression. My problem is this:

The races I'm working with here include angels and djinni. For flavor reasons, I want djinni to fly, and well, from the get go. If they can't fly all the time, I'm worried they won't feel like djinni -- they'll feel like humanoids with limited magical ability.

Same goes for angels, to a lesser degree. I see angels soaring through the celestial skies...although the "angel without its wings" idea has a certain merit, I want the race to feel like *angels*, not aasimar or half-celestials or whatever.

I've also considered just giving every race flight. This doesn't seem in flavor for what I'm working with either, though.

I was going to start at 1st level...but it may be easier to just start at 5th or so, leaving flight a considerable, but not extreme, advantage. The higher level might be more in flavor, too. I could also dole out free racial levels.
M-bark
03-23-08, 04:40 AM I think there is a feat chain somewhere that eventually grants pretty good flight. I think it was in one of the Fiendish Codexes, and that you needed some fiendish blood to qualify, though, but you could base some feats off that to give the angels and djinn flight (or better flight) in the long run, and perhaps start off with something like fly speed = base speed (clumsy maneuverability).
ragoftag
03-23-08, 11:08 AM Gumbo T I'm working on a campaign with all homebrew races. They'll all be LA +0, but all will be more powerful than the PHB races. Some will start out with flight speeds. Others will not. I'm unsure how to balance this.
The races I'm working with here include angels and djinni. For flavor reasons, I want djinni to fly, and well, from the get go. If they can't fly all the time, I'm worried they won't feel like djinni -- they'll feel like humanoids with limited magical ability.Ah! Now i see!
First, If you give the '+0' played races too much in the way of benefits, you'll wind up with the killer kitten problem. That is, a level 1 commoner will be able to drop orcs by himself. Imagine an orc raid on a hill giant village. Your players could easily become so dominant that they won't enjoy the game.
Second, I want to see some of your ideas for the races. A djinn races that starts even close to +0 is of great interest to me. I have a floating cloud city peopled by a similar race and no spare time to cogitate upon the "how".
Third, perfect flight is ultra powerful and to be used sparingly (I correct ALL my monsters from the published sources!). By reducing the speed, some form of balance can be attained, but it has not worked out well for me.
Fourth, I am torn between racial levels and a progressive acquisition of racial abilities. The first lets a character be easily graduated to a more powerful race's default status, but including the racial abilities into a level progression is just too nice. I was going to start at 1st level...but it may be easier to just start at 5th or so, leaving flight a considerable, but not extreme, advantage. The higher level might be more in flavor, too. I could also dole out free racial levels.This sounds good, but the 'free racial levels' might not help. Charge them for the racial packages they start with, the racial adjustments, and allow them to choose which they wish is fair. If you have a race no one will touch, it will be obvious.
Good luck and let us in on the races as you go!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gumbo T 03-19-08, 03:06 PM	I'm working on a campaign with all homebrew races. They'll all be LA +0, but all will be more powerful than the PHB races. Some will start out with flight speeds. Others will not. I'm unsure how to balance this. 1. Say you have a race with a fly speed of 30 (average) with no ability score adjustments. Would this be roughly equal to a +4 Con, +2 Wis race with no flight? Or should the adjustments be higher to balance this out? 2. How much do things change is the speed is 30 (perfect)? 3. How many feats is a fly speed of 30 (average) worth? Thanks!
jradd777 03-19-08, 09:11 PM	Have you started to do any homework on this yet (beyond just asking on the boards)? You can probably make a decent judgment by checking out the Winged template (Savage Species), winged creatures (their LA compared to similar creatures without wings, etc). Maybe you could suggest some things, propose a few races to be compared, weighed, balanced off each other. It all depends on several things, I think. Do these races with wings just get wings... or abilities that work really well with wings also... or other abilities that don't work very well with wings? (Do the wings hamper the creature in anyway as a drawback? Can they only be used in very circumstantial situations?)
key 03-20-08, 01:28 AM	1. I think that's a pretty fair tradeoff. 2. Then give the other race(s) another +2 to an ability score. 3. There are epic feats that give a +1 to an ability score. If you say flight is worth +4 to Con and +2 to Wis, then that means 6 feats.
arangatang 03-20-08, 01:38 AM	How about: Generic Flying Guy -2 Dex, -2 Con Flight 30 ft (poor maneuverability) Too weak?
Gumbo T 03-20-08, 10:13 AM	Thanks for the help, everybody. The flying race has no real drawbacks associated with flight, but no other abilities that particularly synergize with it, either. I took jradd's advice and had a look at savage species, comparing the winged template to the reptilian and insectoid templates, all of which are LA +2. The ability mods were about the same, and it seemed like the insectoids and reptilians got about seven feats worth of "stuff" while the winged template got flight. Going by key's notion that +1 to an ability mod is worth about a feat, it looks like I'm in the right ballpark with +6 to abilities as a fair alternative to flight. Arangtang, that flying man might actually be fun to play. Thanks again!
qwerty1 03-20-08, 10:21 AM	Gumbo T: Look in the Races of the Wild. The section on Raptorans they are LA +0 and have fly speeds (Glide for the first 4 HD) of average mobility.
WackyOne 03-20-08, 10:38 AM	Also, look at Race of the Dragons: Kobolds can get Flight at lvl 6 for a couple of feats and, of course, being Kobolds... and that's a drawback, even with all the "Kobold Power" in that book.
runestar 03-20-08, 10:38 AM	Flight is too strong to allow at 1st lv, of moderate use at mid levels (when you start accessing spells which grant limited flight), and pretty much useless at higher lvs (where wings of flying are cheap and commonplace). So it is difficult to determine a ballpark LA to accurately price it as its value will decrease as you level. To avoid screwing yourself in the long run, you may want to adapt the raptorans and introduce some sort of limited flight which slowly improves as you level.:)
Alxdude 03-20-08, 10:59 AM	one thing about flight... it is fairly easy to get by spellcasters by level 5 (and with 60 speed), but a bonus to an ability score will be useful up to 20 often... flying with a speed of 30 at average maneuverability is not really all that useful except maybe for the first few sessions broom of flying: 17,000 gp http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#broomofFlying periapt of wisdom +4: 16,000 gp (and this stacks with racial ability) wings of flying: 54,000 gp http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#wingsofFlying how often do you think: hey, I wish I had flying for that fight? and how often do you say: hey, I wish my spell DC was 3 higher or my attack or damage was 3 higher or I had 20 more hitpoints or my saving throw was 3 higher?
Chaosepoch 03-20-08, 04:58 PM	one thing about flight... it is fairly easy to get by spellcasters by level 5 (and with 60 speed), but a bonus to an ability score will be useful up to 20 often... flying with a speed of 30 at average maneuverability is not really all that useful except maybe for the first few sessions broom of flying: 17,000 gp http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#broomofFlying periapt of wisdom +4: 16,000 gp (and this stacks with racial ability) wings of flying: 54,000 gp http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#wingsofFlying how often do you think: hey, I wish I had flying for that fight? and how often do you say: hey, I wish my spell DC was 3 higher or my attack or damage was 3 higher or I had 20 more hitpoints or my saving throw was 3 higher? Really it depends on your DM and campaign here. If your DM is a fan of the dungeon crawl, it's useless without perfect maneuverability. However, compare it to something set in a 'sandstorm' desert-like campaign, it's worth its weight in platinum... And hey, I've been stuck on top of a castle surrounded by enemies storming the lower levels. There was a catapult and I seriously considered it... 5 stories falling damage, broken by the trees or 60-80 undead warriors
Krusk 03-20-08, 06:53 PM	Have you looked at raptorians in races of the wild? delete their name and flavor text and insert your own. Now you've got a custom flying race. I honestly think they are quite balanced, even if i do detest them for purly fluff reasons.
arangatang 03-20-08, 10:21 PM	Generic Flying Chap -2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis Flight 30 ft (poor manuerverability) Balanced for first level?
M-bark 03-21-08, 08:15 AM	Generic Flying Chap -2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis Flight 30 ft (poor manuerverability) Balanced for first level? For first level, that might be balanced, but at level 8+ or about there, it's a total disadvantage. By the time you hit level 20, you pretty much suck compared to others.
jradd777 03-21-08, 02:05 PM	M-Bark makes a good point... You need something that will change over levels, somehow... or some racial feats to enhance themselves? I'm not sure.
Nephlite 03-21-08, 02:43 PM	Generic Flying Chap -2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis Flight 30 ft (poor manuerverability) Balanced for first level? What you need is for the flight to improve by level as well: Level 5, the Flight increases for poor to average. Level 10, flight increaase from average to good. Level 15, flight increases from good to perfect. There with the -2 to three scores that is balanced.
Eikre 03-21-08, 03:57 PM	3. There are epic feats that give a +1 to an ability score. If you say flight is worth +4 to Con and +2 to Wis, then that means 6 feats. This is terrible logic that illustrates the worst affinities of the layman's balancing logic. Let's try this another way. There is a feat that gives you +3 HP. If you say a dwarf is worth item is worth +2 CON, then at level 6, that means two feats. At level 18, it means six! A level 18 character can buy a 16,000gp item and gain 12 feats instantly. Twelve Toughnesses and a Great Fortitude. That's pocket change! A Fighter's entire list of class features, at level 18! Actually, I think I'll take a Wizard's at 18, thanks. And we just bartered 16,000gp for full spellcasting with ninth level spells, using your technique in a direction heading away from screwing the player, instead of towards. These discrepancies in purchasing power exist everywhere in the game. This isn't a point-buy game, and when you try and buy something with a resource that it's not compatible with, there's this stupid, draconian fee and you're expected to thank them for the privilege. A magic item that doesn't fit into it's arbitrary slot costs 150% of what the normal one does. If you want to buy a Doppelganger's mighty abilities scores, you have to give up four levels to LA, and sacrifice four tasty class levels to crappy monster HD. Is it worth it? Absolutely not. What you need is for the flight to improve by level as well: Level 5, the Flight increases for poor to average. Level 10, flight increaase from average to good. Level 15, flight increases from good to perfect. There with the -2 to three scores that is balanced. Scaling is certainly the way to do this, and this isn't a terrible race. But the TC wanted a slightly more powerful base race than normal, and I don't think we've got it quite yet. At level 5, the Raptorian has Flight in all combat situations with more speed, the option to make a dive attack, no racial ability penalties to the three survival stats, and some token class features. The only downside in relation to this guy is it's not unlimited... But the rest of the party is also without flight, so there's no real opportunity to fly for hours on end. At level 10, the Raptorian has unlimited flight and so does the party. Flying Chap gets good maneuverability but no other advantages over the Raptorian. At levels 1 and 15, the Flying Chap's comparison isn't as easy to draw, but at level 1 he's strongly impaired in survivability because all his little -1 modifiers actually make somewhat of a difference, and at level 15 race is mostly around to stand for something palpably cool that you can do innately, instead of casting or wearing, like everyone else is I do think that impairing his survival stats is a good starting point. Less AC, HP, spot/listen, and saves are all well juxtaposed with untouchable status that comes with flying. You want this guy to be better than the base races, right? Level 1 is fine. Give him back his stats and a bit of token maneuverability as time goes on. As for original thought, and not just analysis, I posit that Flight is extremely irritating when you don't have it yourself, but as a DM, it's easy to arm your monsters with ranged attacks that are less effective. A masterwork sword that does 1d8 damage to the human is roughly analogous to the regular dart that does 1d6 damage to the Flying Chap. And combat will serve as a powerful equalizer, because a flying player can't leave his comrades while he flys away to go drink potions/drop rocks/cast 10-minute spells. As the DM, you want to craft this race knowing that the player will be only about as effective as anyone else, but will sometimes lament his lack of other upsides, and sometimes exalt the interesting ability he has. Ultimately, the players look at their characters and compare themselves against themselves and the arbitrary standards for their level. You look at them and know that the levels are an illusion and that the comparison between the players is an illusion, because you decide where the next hostile spell is going and get to decide which slot it's going to be cast from. It's just that the illusion is what we're all striving for.
key 03-21-08, 11:02 PM	If you say a dwarf is worth item is worth +2 CON, then at level 6, that means two feats. This is terrible grammar, even for a layman such as yourself.
Captain_Kobold 03-21-08, 11:30 PM	I'm working on a campaign with all homebrew races. They'll all be LA +0, but all will be more powerful than the PHB races. Some will start out with flight speeds. Others will not. I'm unsure how to balance this. DM eyeballing is probably the best way to go on this. Have a look at the flying race as a whole compared to the others and think of how many challenging situations it the adventure you will be running will be made easier with the flight ability. 1. Say you have a race with a fly speed of 30 (average) with no ability score adjustments. Would this be roughly equal to a +4 Con, +2 Wis race with no flight? Or should the adjustments be higher to balance this out? What level will the characters be starting at? At low levels flight is very useful. At higher levels, all it is doing is saving you an item slot, and items that give you flight may well be superior to the natural flight anyway. (See next point.) 2. How much do things change is the speed is 30 (perfect)? Quite a bit. Perfect maneuverability is magical flight pure and simple. Nothing with wings should have it. Even Hummingbirds are not at this level. The creature can move through the air with ease in all three axis, unburdened by the laws of physics. They can also fly in areas that a creature that has to rely on wings could not, such as buildings. 3. How many feats is a fly speed of 30 (average) worth? You can't really convert special abilities such as flight into a direct feat equivalent. Look at the race as a whole compared to the others in your setting. Its also worth noting that any small or larger winged humanoid would likely not have average maneuverability at the lower levels. They would probably be at poor: the same level as birds of their equivalent size. Best bet might be to start off as clumsy, going up to poor at around level 5, when the flight spell becomes available. Save further increases for the higher levels where continuously maintaining magical flight becomnes trivial.
Eikre 03-22-08, 12:44 AM	This is terrible grammar, even for a layman such as yourself. Originally, I was going to use the 16,000 gp item as an example. After moving some text around for more effective rhetoric, some of the original sentence was left. If we're going to engage in an argumentum ad hominem, then I will permit you to correct your own benign oversights before we begin to revile each other pointlessly. Begin with your use of reflexive pronouns. Technicalities of linguistics are hardly worthwhile, though. I propose a gentleman's agreement: If you wish attack me, like I have you, then I'll thank you for it later- if you teach me something. Barring that, you could make a witty remark. Then we'd be amused.
key 03-22-08, 01:01 AM	if you teach me something Lesson 1: Don't make personal attacks without expecting some in return.
Gumbo T 03-22-08, 08:05 PM	Thanks again, everybody, for all the input. It's very much appreciated. The point that the usefulness of flight is DM controlled is true and well taken. I just don't want the players (fliers or non-fliers) to feel they're getting a raw deal. In truth, I played with a flight progression. My problem is this: The races I'm working with here include angels and djinni. For flavor reasons, I want djinni to fly, and well, from the get go. If they can't fly all the time, I'm worried they won't feel like djinni -- they'll feel like humanoids with limited magical ability. Same goes for angels, to a lesser degree. I see angels soaring through the celestial skies...although the "angel without its wings" idea has a certain merit, I want the race to feel like angels, not aasimar or half-celestials or whatever. I've also considered just giving every race flight. This doesn't seem in flavor for what I'm working with either, though. I was going to start at 1st level...but it may be easier to just start at 5th or so, leaving flight a considerable, but not extreme, advantage. The higher level might be more in flavor, too. I could also dole out free racial levels.
M-bark 03-23-08, 04:40 AM	I think there is a feat chain somewhere that eventually grants pretty good flight. I think it was in one of the Fiendish Codexes, and that you needed some fiendish blood to qualify, though, but you could base some feats off that to give the angels and djinn flight (or better flight) in the long run, and perhaps start off with something like fly speed = base speed (clumsy maneuverability).
ragoftag 03-23-08, 11:08 AM	Gumbo T I'm working on a campaign with all homebrew races. They'll all be LA +0, but all will be more powerful than the PHB races. Some will start out with flight speeds. Others will not. I'm unsure how to balance this. The races I'm working with here include angels and djinni. For flavor reasons, I want djinni to fly, and well, from the get go. If they can't fly all the time, I'm worried they won't feel like djinni -- they'll feel like humanoids with limited magical ability.Ah! Now i see! First, If you give the '+0' played races too much in the way of benefits, you'll wind up with the killer kitten problem. That is, a level 1 commoner will be able to drop orcs by himself. Imagine an orc raid on a hill giant village. Your players could easily become so dominant that they won't enjoy the game. Second, I want to see some of your ideas for the races. A djinn races that starts even close to +0 is of great interest to me. I have a floating cloud city peopled by a similar race and no spare time to cogitate upon the "how". Third, perfect flight is ultra powerful and to be used sparingly (I correct ALL my monsters from the published sources!). By reducing the speed, some form of balance can be attained, but it has not worked out well for me. Fourth, I am torn between racial levels and a progressive acquisition of racial abilities. The first lets a character be easily graduated to a more powerful race's default status, but including the racial abilities into a level progression is just too nice. I was going to start at 1st level...but it may be easier to just start at 5th or so, leaving flight a considerable, but not extreme, advantage. The higher level might be more in flavor, too. I could also dole out free racial levels.This sounds good, but the 'free racial levels' might not help. Charge them for the racial packages they start with, the racial adjustments, and allow them to choose which they wish is fair. If you have a race no one will touch, it will be obvious. Good luck and let us in on the races as you go!