Post/Author/DateTime	Post
proteininja 01-07-08, 04:55 PM	One of my players for my new campaign wants something new so he plans on trying to make a satyr pc. He is not too good with numbers though so it is up to me, the dm, to figure it out. I have looked at the template and there seems no way to scale them back to be equal with the others at first and future levels. Please help. I do not want to tell him he cannot be satyr, but it seems there is no way to scale back their devastating power. P.S. This is my first time DMing and if anyone can post a link to a beginner dm forum post i would greatly appreciate it.
Yeliv 01-07-08, 05:01 PM	I'll try my hand at it, not using the widely accepted LA System, cause I don't remember it off hand and I can't get to the link. Satyr +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str Speed: 40 ft Low-Light vision +2 Natural Armor No racial HD Natural Weapon: Headbutt 1d6 Special Abilities: No affinity with pipes Special Qualities: No DR Automatic Languages: Sylvan Common How about that?
proteininja 01-07-08, 07:16 PM	that looks ok but that doesnt take into account the copious amount of skill bonuses they get and i dont like the fact that they have a natural weapon. If someone could explain to me the natural weapon works i would appreciate it. if it gives them an extra attack i dont want them having it.
Devigod 01-07-08, 07:24 PM	Take out the natural armor too, then you can keep the horns; it does give an extra attack, but the second one takes a -5 penalty to hit, and he must use a full attack action. Anything short of a natural 16 shouldn't hit your cooked up foes and it should stay okay with game balance.
proteininja 01-07-08, 07:29 PM	i would still appreciate more input. perhaps addressing the racial bonuses to skills. TY for your advice
Legdiwena 01-09-08, 01:33 PM	Isn't there a 7 lvl satyr racial class in Savage Species?
Knute 01-10-08, 07:39 AM	I think Yeliv has hit it pretty well: Satyr +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str Speed: 40 ft Low-Light vision +2 Natural Armor No racial HD Natural Weapon: Headbutt 1d6 Special Abilities: No affinity with pipes Special Qualities: No DR Automatic Languages: Sylvan Common I'd make the speed bonus only possible without armor. Light armor, if proficient, at 3rd level. Natural Armor doesn't combine with normal armor (of course). Perform (Sylvan instrument of choice) as an available skill. Instability (opposite of Dwarf Stability) -2 to resist being bullrushed or tripped. -2 to saves vs. rage -2 Will save. Lastly I'd strip them of the Fey Type and give them the Humanoid Type. Fey has too many immunities and special features. Knute
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 10:21 AM	And why wouldn't you let NA stack with normal armor? Is that a houserule in your campaign?
Knute 01-10-08, 01:02 PM	Normally I have no problem with natural armor stacking with normal armor but I don't like it in the case of the satyr. They're a boy (or man) with goat legs and small horns. Where do they get the natural armor? 1. They aren't paying an LA so its too powerful a freebee. 2. Satyrs aren't particularly thick skinned or hided. In this case I see it as a bonus for the Satyr in the state of nature. If he leaves his natural state to become an adventurer I imagine some sort of stepping down from being fey. If they don't concern themselves with the world of the fey and pay respect to their various courts they fall. Perhaps he could keep it with specially designed very rare Fey Armors but as a rogue or Spellcaster with +2 dex and +2 NA too powerful. It makes more sense (to me) that they are sort of sky clad, like the berzerkers with a limited bonus. Maybe it shouldn't be 'natural'. Thats just my take on it. If you don't do this I think they dust every other race for sorcerer. As it is they're pretty sweet but there are limits for upper levels. -K Hows this instead of the natural armor: Moonclad (Su) - A satyr that dances the whole night, naked beneath a full Moon receives a special blessing. They receive a +2 natural armor bonus and +1 luck bonus to all saving throws. This bonus remains until they wear armor or willingly enter a non sylvan place of worship. Leader of the Dance (Su) - This is a blessing given the recognized leader of a moon dance of at least 18 fey creatures (including the humanoid Satyrs). Bonuses are as Moon Clad only double (+4 ac, +2 Saves). Further a Leader may make a save when entering a place of worship to keep their protections. The leader of the dance is often the most talented performer or the recognized dominant force among the fey.
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 01:34 PM	I wouldn't think a +3 to armor is unbalanced, but isn't NA an +1 ability anyway?
Knute 01-10-08, 01:43 PM	Natural Armor is what it is - its granted for having an extraordinary tough hide. Basically, the satyr doesn't have this. I think you have to ask yourself though, since satyrs are notoriously warlike, how do you ready a bunch of crazed satyrs to attack in the middle of nowhere. Some wooden armor and ...... Thats where moonclad comes in. Its not super useful to an individual but if it gives a small troup of satyrs the equivalent of Leather armor (maybe more if it works with fey light stuff) then its significant. It helps explain why they dance in the woods. -k The bonus for Dex they keep, so always +1 A +2 bonus stacked on top of any armor they want is too powerful compared to the base races, especially with unbalanced stat bonuses.
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 01:48 PM	What is moonclad?
Knute 01-10-08, 01:56 PM	Moonclad is the supernatural ability I suggested in the earlier post to replace the natural armor. -k Satyr (Humanoid 0LA Player Race) http://forums.gleemax.com/report.php?p=14792203 Satyrs As Characters Satyr characters possess the following racial traits. Gender: Satyrs are always male. +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str Size: Medium Size Speed: A Satyr without armor has a base speed of 40 feet. He may move this rate in light armor at 3rd level. Vision: Low-Light vision Natural Weapon: Headbutt 1d6 Perform Instrument: Satyrs may choose one Sylvan instrument as a class skill (eg, pipes, lyre, drum etc...) Type: Humanoid - They suffer no special damage from cold iron or steel Favored Class: (Chosen at 1st level) Bard, Ranger or Barbarian. This might also be setting specific. Automatic Languages: Sylvan Common Satyrs are quick to anger and have trouble with self control. -2 to saves vs. rage -2 Will save. Satyr Hooves are not as stable as feet Instability (opposite of Dwarf Stability) -2 to resist being bullrushed or tripped. Satyrs have an enduring gift from their Fey Heritage. Moonclad (Su) - A satyr that dances the whole night, naked beneath a full Moon receives a special blessing. He receives a +2 natural armor bonus and +1 luck bonus to all saving throws. This bonus remains until they wear armor or willingly enter a non sylvan place of worship. Leader of the Dance (Su) - This is a blessing given the recognized leader of a moon dance of at least 18 fey creatures (including the humanoid Satyrs). Bonuses are as Moon Clad only double (+4 ac, +2 Saves). Further a Leader may make a save when entering a place of worship to keep their protections. The leader of the dance is often the most talented performer or the recognized dominant force among the fey. Fey Finding - Satyrs may use the survival skill to sense the presence of Fey Portals, Circles and holy sites. -Knute
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 02:24 PM	Pardon me for being dense, but why shouldn't satyrs get NA for their hide. I would say they have a thick hide and it should stack with armor without being unbalanced, see kolbold entry.
Knute 01-10-08, 02:40 PM	Legdiwena, your opinion is as valid as mine but this is for a 0LA player race. None of the standard races get natural armor and the Satyr has no real physical attribute, like the kobold's scales, that would protect it. Thats likely why Devigod said remove it too. When the designers made the monster they added natural armor rather than giving them items that a party could take. Do you think Newton (Atta boy herk!) or Pan had anything but soft smooth lovable skin. Satyrs are mostly lovers not fighters. -2 str is not a problem for any spellcaster. +2Dex & Char are GREAT. Natural armor on top of that is too much (IMHO) and isn't born out by the race concept. What would you do?
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 02:54 PM	Satyr +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str Speed: 40 ft Low-Light vision +2 Natural Armor No racial HD Natural Weapon: Headbutt 1d6 Special Abilities: No affinity with pipes Special Qualities: No DR Automatic Languages: Sylvan Common This looks good to me, if anything I might change headbutt to 1d4. Might have the DR scale in starting at lvl 5.
Knute 01-10-08, 02:56 PM	As you like, but this is head and shoulder above the kobold (In more ways than one). I'll stick to my flavour and balance. -k
Orenmir 01-10-08, 03:38 PM	Where do they get the natural armor? Same place (reason) giants get it.
Knute 01-10-08, 04:38 PM	You're all free to do what you'd like. Proteininja was looking to scale back their power to be a standard race. Just the stat imbalance is enough to usually require a level adjustment, finding something else to balance this out is hard. You can argue for the natural armor but the standard satyr has an LA of 2 and starts with 5 levels of fey. So something has to be paired back to go from an effective character level of 7 at first level! In your examples you've already reduced the natural armor bonus from 4 to 1 so its not as if you haven't made changes. The only question is one of balance. Perhaps have a Feral Satyr variant that trades the +2 Dex and Charisma for the +2 Natural Armor. The Preferred class might be Barbarian. -k ps. I posted the combined version from Yeliv and myself over at Enworld. So far I'm told its too good. If you want to add more on top of this, I just don't think its balanced.
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 04:46 PM	Why not just take the racial class?
Knute 01-10-08, 08:19 PM	Why not just take the racial class? Thats not what Proteininja asked for. Legdiwena, are you the player that wants to play a Satyr? Everyone seems to have a comment about one element of this construction but they're not looking at the whole class for balance, or presenting a cohesive alternative. -K
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 08:28 PM	Nope, not me.
Knute 01-10-08, 08:57 PM	Well thanks for the comments Leg, this is becoming an interesting little project. Sigurd\Knute
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 09:37 PM	Pleasure
AtsuiShoto 01-10-08, 10:53 PM	I think it's important to identify the elements that you think make a satyr unique, from a non-mechanical perspective. Then decide how to mechanically represent these characteristics. Finally, prioritize the benefits to decide which ones can be gotten rid of, and combine the rest with the drawbacks (if any) to hopefully make a balanced race.
DragonicHeritage 01-11-08, 07:50 PM	Play as a faun from Deities & demigods. Just trade the fey type for humanoid, then they're balanced. Infact, they are already almost balanced. Fauns, satyrs, and pans(yes, look like a smaller Pan, but not yet made in d&d-no point) are all the same falvour wise- Good at pipes, have little goat horns and legs. They are good with pipes, and have no other unusual bonuses that any core race fails to have: ie no natural attacks or nat. armour. Hope this helps. I'm surprised no one thought of them before.
Knute 01-11-08, 10:08 PM	Re: Deity & Demigod Fauns Aside from questions of whether proteininja has that book the faun's are really weak 1/2 CR creatures with no real direction for player characters. If you take away their fey immunities and abilities they have little to recommend them. You'd be better off to take the human write up and simply agree that the body looked different. -k
runestar 01-11-08, 10:09 PM	The stat boosts seem a tad too strong for LA+0. +2dex/+2cha/-2str makes it the perfect sorc class. I would probably scale it down to +2cha/-2str, strip away the other abilities, and slot them in at later lvs. Front-loading a race with too many weak powers tend to inflate its LA (I say inflate because they usually become useless at higher lvs, but you are still hamstrung by LA). My take on a LA+0 Satyr race... -2str, +2cha base speed 30ft low light vision headbutt 1d4 damage alertness as bonus feat Favoured class: Bard Racial feats: Keen senses: Prereq: character lv 5th Benefit: You get +1 racial bonus on hide, listen, move silently, perform and spot checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every additional 5 character lvs you have, to a maximum of +4 at lv20. Maybe something along this line for the other trademark abilities like NA, dr and the pipes? Not sure how to balance them though.:P
proteininja 01-12-08, 12:29 AM	thank you all so much for your input. I have resolved the issue on my own at this point but feel free to keep throwing ideas out there and Thank you again for all of your great advice. A special thanks to Knute for keeping everyone's eyes on the prize.
Knute 01-12-08, 06:06 AM	So what was your final solution?