Human-to-Warforged Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Human-to-Warforged Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hand of Vecna
10-02-06, 10:31 AM First off, apologies if the question's been asked & answered before. I tried looking to see if it had been, but didn't see what it had, but I may've failed my Search check.

I've got a human psion (shaper) who's started taking the Renegade Mastermaker PrC from Magic of Eberron. (The GM allowed slight changes to be made so it'd fit for a psion, like how the Psionic Artificer is a psionic version of the regular Artificer.) Once my char hits level 10 in the PrC, he'll become a Warforged.

Dumb Question #1: Will my character lose the bonus Human feat and bonus Human skill points?

Dumb Question #2: Will he lose his Human-only feats? Currently he has Able Learner, Fearles Destiny, Heroic Destiny, and Protected Destiny (all from Races of Destiny, and all requiring you to be Human or Half-Human) -- would he lose those?
Seldriss
10-02-06, 01:21 PM If you allow me, just one question...
You are playing a human character who wants to become a warforged ?
A machine made of metal, without any real sense ?

Or is it the player who wants that ?
Silverthumb128
10-02-06, 01:34 PM If you allow me, just one question...
You are playing a human character who wants to become a warforged ?
A machine made of metal, without any real sense ?

From what he said, the PrC eventually turns the character into a Warforged. Taking 10 levels of that PrC probably would tell me they want to become a Warforged. If they didn't want to become Warforged, well, they'd know to avoid it. Kind of an obvious question.

Or is it the player who wants that ?

He used the term GM, rather than I, so I'm guessing its his character.

To answer your questions, Hand of Vecna, I'd say that unless the rules say so, you wouldn't lose your Bonus Feat. Skill points wouldn't be lost, but you wouldn't continue gaining the extra skill point, either.

Human only feats, you'd still have them, but anything with the Human prerequisite wouldn't be useable, since you no longer meet that prerequisite. Basically, it'd be a dead feat slot: Unable to take something in its place, but unable to use the feat that's there.
PhaedrusXY
10-02-06, 01:35 PM without any real sense ?Warforged are intelligent, and they are alive. They are not "simple" machines. And they quite likely live for a very long time, perhaps indefinitely, and they can ignore alot of the frailties that come with being human. So yeah, I can understand why someone would want to turn into one if they could... especially if said person is old, or is afraid of death. Liches are horrid, rotting, walking corpses, but people certainly don't have any problems wondering why some spellcasters turn themselves into them.

Edit: To contribute to the actual topic: According to the sage, you gain and lose racial bonus feats when you change from one form to another with Polymorph and similiar spells. This includes humans losing their bonus feats. I think this is pretty ridiculous, but that's what he said. Take it however you want.

However, when a human becomes an undead via a template like Lich, they keep their bonus feats and skill points. I think this is more similiar to your situation.
HermitIX
10-02-06, 01:38 PM i dont think you loose your feats, but you do loose any benifet for them becouse you no longer meet the requirements.

you will loose the human bonus feat and the skill points. becouse you are no longer human.
dragonseth
10-02-06, 02:35 PM I would treat this as if you become Dragonborn. You lose the feat and skill points. Here is where I differ from it though, you are no longer human. Period. So, you your Human-only feats don't work. But, I'd probably let you switch them out for other feats.
Hand of Vecna
10-02-06, 03:05 PM Sorry for the confusion -- yes, my character wants to become a Construct. He's a Shaper, his main thing's Astral Constructs, and he's sorta got it in his mind to find a way to create a new race of permanent intelligent Astral Constructs, with himself as their god. He's also considering taking the Warforged Juggernaut PrC (from the Eberron core book), to become even more like a Construct (with none of the "frailties of traditional life").

Could retraining (from Player's Handbook II) be used to fill the "dead feat" slots with useable feats?

Thanks for your help, all. Seems there's more confusion than just my own in this matter.
Dragon3
10-02-06, 03:19 PM Wouldn't Green Star Adept do as well for you as you turn into a construct straight. You lose out on 5 levels of spellcasting but then again you would on juggernaut.
Grey_Mage
10-02-06, 07:08 PM As far as I can interpret the rules you dont lose skill points that are already assigned- you just dont get the bonus skill point a level at any level hereafter.

You dont lose your bonus feat.

You can no longer use your human only feats as you no longer meet the prerequisites.

Yes the PHBII would allow you to retrain them, with DM permission of course.

This is all based off a simple reading of the rules, and some previous experiance with the situation through the rules of reincarnation spells.
Shedeo
10-03-06, 12:37 AM You wouldn't lose your bonus feat or skill points.

You also would continue to gain them. Afterall, you're gaining the benefits of becoming a living construct by class features. You're still human, you're just a living construct human. It doesn't make any sense for you to lose your bonus sill points. You're race isn't really changing to warforged.

Take it like the Dragon Disciple. You become a half dragon, but you're still human or whatever your base race is.
Nexis
10-03-06, 01:44 AM Just a minor thing... Might wanna make yourself a psiforged instead of a warforged, if your gm allows of course. Kinda fits more thematically :D
dragonseth
10-03-06, 07:58 AM Take it like the Dragon Disciple. You become a half dragon, but you're still human or whatever your base race is.
Yeah, but Half-Dragon is a template. Warforged is not. Warforged is a base race. Which is why I look to Dragonborn for guidance. It says that you lose all things from your previous race, including bonus feats and bonus skill points.
Hand of Vecna
10-03-06, 10:19 AM Wouldn't Green Star Adept do as well for you as you turn into a construct straight. You lose out on 5 levels of spellcasting but then again you would on juggernaut.
I was thinking of that one, but looking over it, it just dind't... click with the character. Hard to describe.

Just a minor thing... Might wanna make yourself a psiforged instead of a warforged, if your gm allows of course. Kinda fits more thematically :D
I was thinking that, and it would fit, but then I couldn't take Warforged Juggernaut (which requires taking Adamantine Body, which would preclude taking the Psicrystal Body with you must take to be a Psiforged), and he does want to become more and more Construct-y.
Shedeo
10-03-06, 01:07 PM Right, but the thing is that your race isn't actually changing to warforged, you're just gaining their traits. Besides, it makes no sense for him to lose his human qualities. They're not physical qualities, they're mental qualities. Also, if I'm not mistaken, it says that you gain all these benefits, but it never says (like in the Dragonborne race) that you lose anything because your race does not actually change.
Archangel62
10-03-06, 01:09 PM Unless it specifically states that you lose it, you don't.
Cifer
10-03-06, 05:06 PM What a little bit of rules-reading can accomplish...
You change your type into living construct, with you getting all the advantages and disadvantages of this. You further are treated as a warforged in order to meet prereqs and requirements. Finally, you get a warforged feat, which may be a WF-level-1-only.

Meaning: You don't lose any racial traits. You don't get WF racial traits except for living construct. End of story.
Hand of Vecna
03-14-07, 04:23 PM Living Construct isn't a type, though, it's a subtype. A subtype which can only be applied to Constructs, AFAIK.
Xaktsaroth
03-15-07, 02:12 AM Living Construct isn't a type, though, it's a subtype. A subtype which can only be applied to Constructs, AFAIK.

Except this PrC makes a special exception in this case.

Cifer is 100% right.

You gain the living construct subtype, count as a warforged for pre-req's and gain any warforged feat.

Reading the passage makes no mention of having to give up previous racial traits(as a Dragonborn specifically does), and since DnD tends to give you the information of things you CAN do, it seems quite clear to me that you would keep all human racial traits, as you aren't a new race. Your a human, who due to the intergration of warforged components into yourself can be effected by things that effect warforged.

Period.
Ace_of_time
03-17-07, 12:12 AM Warforged are work horses and way to powerful. Never sleep,eat, breath. but us spellcaster will never say a words as long as we get a full night of sleep. hack with craft skill on them at high bonuses you don't to heal them that often. we used to call ours the atom bomb. Warforged with admit body, 3 up for DR, and then have everyone help out on a brilliant energy greatsword. If he has to wake you up at night you had better start running.
Part-Human2
03-17-07, 01:28 AM Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

So he should end up as Construct (Living Construct, Augumented Humanoid, Human)

Oddly the way the ability is written using "Living Construct" as the new type but it is only a subtype.
Xaktsaroth
03-17-07, 01:41 AM So he should end up as Construct (Living Construct, Augumented Humanoid, Human)

Oddly the way the ability is written using "Living Construct" as the new type but it is only a subtype.

Your misunderstanding, he doesn't ACTUALLY become a warforged.

He starts with Humanoid(human).

When he hits level 10 RMM, he becomes: Humanoid(human, living construct).
Part-Human2
03-17-07, 02:42 AM Your misunderstanding, he doesn't ACTUALLY become a warforged.

He starts with Humanoid(human).

When he hits level 10 RMM, he becomes: Humanoid(human, living construct).

You're misunderstanding. How can he be "Living Construct" subtype when Living Construct is a subtype of Type Constructs only AND it says he gains "Living Construct" as his Type?
ArcTan
03-17-07, 03:04 AM If you allow me, just one question...
You are playing a human character who wants to become a warforged ?
A machine made of metal, without any real sense ?

Warforged are sentient beings with emotion and free will. That's the point of the race.

Renegade Mastermakers aren't supposed to be the sanest people in the world, but what they want isn't completely irrational -- they believe that WF are physically superior to human beings (which, well, they are) and that with their much more malleable, controllable, disciplined personalities they're destined to replace humanity as the world's dominant race.
ArcTan
03-17-07, 03:06 AM Just a minor thing... Might wanna make yourself a psiforged instead of a warforged, if your gm allows of course. Kinda fits more thematically :D

It'd also be a blatant self-nerf, since Psiforged Body is a lot less useful than Adamantine Body. (Which would you rather have starting at level 1, full plate with which you're proficient, or a cognizance crystal?)

Psiforged Body is only of real use to people who are seriously hurting for power points -- for a Psion it's a drop in the bucket compared to the coolness of having adamantine armor all the time. So ironically it's Psychic Warriors or people who have dipped into a manifesting class who want Psiforged Body, not primary manifesters.
ArcTan
03-17-07, 03:07 AM You're misunderstanding. How can he be "Living Construct" subtype when Living Construct is a subtype of Type Constructs only AND it says he gains "Living Construct" as his Type?

Because rules create exceptions to other rules, a la the Golden Rule of Magic (the other famous WotC product)?
Part-Human2
03-17-07, 01:56 PM Because rules create exceptions to other rules, a la the Golden Rule of Magic (the other famous WotC product)?

Okay then following the rules (read the ability), he'd be a Living Construct (Augumented Humanoid, Human).
Xaktsaroth
03-17-07, 05:02 PM Okay then following the rules (read the ability), he'd be a Living Construct (Augumented Humanoid, Human).

No, your getting hung up on the fact that you've only seen constructs have the trait before.

Changing their type to Living Construct is a typo, they meant subtype, as the living construct type doesn't exist.
Part-Human2
03-17-07, 07:29 PM No, your getting hung up on the fact that you've only seen constructs have the trait before.

Changing their type to Living Construct is a typo, they meant subtype, as the living construct type doesn't exist.

Aha, so that's the only mistake they made and the mistake wasn't "change the type to Construct and add the Living Construct subtype."

It couldn't have been a typo because they would have said "add" instead of change, unless you think they meant that as well.

I think you're wrong. This isn't an exception changing a Construct subtype (read the Living Subtype entry) into something that can be added to other types; this is the writers' or editors' confusion and/or poor writing. Of course, each their own until there is official clarification. Care to ask Cust Serv?
docballen
03-17-07, 07:55 PM It'd also be a blatant self-nerf, since Psiforged Body is a lot less useful than Adamantine Body. (Which would you rather have starting at level 1, full plate with which you're proficient, or a cognizance crystal?)

.

Yeah, I need to interject a question here. (which might affect this discussion.)

I created a warforged and gave him Adamantine Body at level one. Not "warforged juggernaught" level one, but "character level" one (his first feat). So, if I had created a warforged and played him until level six, and then decided to take Warforged juggernaught, could I just add "adamantine body" at the next feat I acquire, or did it have to be waaaay back when the character was first created???

Because, if I had to add "adamantine body" when the character was initially created... then a human who is trying to turn himself into a warforged is never gonna be able to turn himself into a "juggernaught". (I haven't been able to obtain the "Magic of Ebberon" book, nor read the PrC "Renegade Mastermaker" so please forgive this stoopid question.)
dragonseth
03-17-07, 09:38 PM Adamantine Body has a prerequisite, "Can only be taken at 1st level."

So, you can't take it at sixth level.
Grod_The_Giant
03-17-07, 09:55 PM I would have to say "yes,you keep all your feats/skill points," simply because loosing them is illogical and confusing.

First, as I see it, the Human Only feats are more mental then anything. He's not changing is mind when he finishes the PrC.

Secondly, it's confusing. You have to go over your whole sheet, raking out 1 skill point/level, five or so feats, related bonuses...messy.
Hand of Vecna
03-18-07, 01:06 AM When you reach level 10 in the Renegade Mastermaker PrC, you gain a bonus Warforged feat, and it can be one that could normally only be taken at first level. They even give Mithral body as an example. So, yes, it would seem they could take Adamantine body -- they've become a Living Construct/Warforged (or at least reasonably close to one, close enough to count as Warforged for purposes of prereqs and such), and an RM could choose to become a Living Construct that was sheathed in Adamantine, or Mithral, or Psychoactive Crystal (by taking Adamantine Body, Mithral Body,or Psiforged Body, respectively).

Construct (Augumented Humanoid, Human, Living Construct) seems to me to be the best and most accurate/logical way to do it.
Ace_of_time
03-18-07, 10:07 PM As with reincarnate spell when you change to a different race you keep all mental abilities and the only things that change is the physcal ones. And you gain the abilities of the new race. it would be the same here. Now if you keep a subtype of human then you can still use your human only feats. If you don't want them any more you can ask your DM for a rebuilding quest to change the feats to new ones. the at first level feat are so you know that you can't be made of wood one level and metal the next that that is a choice that is to be made when you are made so I don't see why you should not be able to choose it when you change or you could get it in the quest with DM aproval. You would not get the skill points from then on. Don't for get the DR up to if you do a Rebuild.
G_Mancer
03-18-07, 11:44 PM there is a PrC in complete Arcane which augments you slowly over 10 lvls untill finally you become elemental. i think this is more similar than anything else anyone has mentioned. in the case where you turn into an elemental, you would not lose feats or skills.
Spikes01k
03-18-07, 11:45 PM I would have to say "yes,you keep all your feats/skill points," simply because loosing them is illogical and confusing.

First, as I see it, the Human Only feats are more mental then anything. He's not changing is mind when he finishes the PrC.

Secondly, it's confusing. You have to go over your whole sheet, raking out 1 skill point/level, five or so feats, related bonuses...messy.

I agree with you here, but I would make them stop the skill point progresstion from that point on.
sooperspook
03-19-07, 10:43 AM I agree with you here, but I would make them stop the skill point progresstion from that point on.

Except that would contradict what the rules actually say.
You still retain your human subtype with the RM, you just gain another subtype on top of that.
Part-Human2
03-19-07, 12:05 PM The 10th level Renegade Mastermaker Construct Exemplar ability says "type changes to living construct" but the living construct is a subtype limited to constructs. Should this say type changes to construct with the living construct subtype? Or is this some sort of exception? Or should the living construct subtype be added to the humanoid type of the character?

Thank you for contacting us.
You're correct. You would become a creature with the Construct type and the Living Construct subtype.

Good Gaming!
Chris.
Customer Service Supervisor

So Construct (Living Construct, Human, Augumented Humanoid). Being subtype Human allows qualifications for Human-only feats, PrC'sb etc (RoD).
Hand of Vecna
03-19-07, 08:26 PM Hunh, I've sentt hem that question at least three times, and never received an answer. Glad someone did! And even gladder that the answer seems to make sense!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hand of Vecna 10-02-06, 10:31 AM	First off, apologies if the question's been asked & answered before. I tried looking to see if it had been, but didn't see what it had, but I may've failed my Search check. I've got a human psion (shaper) who's started taking the Renegade Mastermaker PrC from Magic of Eberron. (The GM allowed slight changes to be made so it'd fit for a psion, like how the Psionic Artificer is a psionic version of the regular Artificer.) Once my char hits level 10 in the PrC, he'll become a Warforged. Dumb Question #1: Will my character lose the bonus Human feat and bonus Human skill points? Dumb Question #2: Will he lose his Human-only feats? Currently he has Able Learner, Fearles Destiny, Heroic Destiny, and Protected Destiny (all from Races of Destiny, and all requiring you to be Human or Half-Human) -- would he lose those?
Seldriss 10-02-06, 01:21 PM	If you allow me, just one question... You are playing a human character who wants to become a warforged ? A machine made of metal, without any real sense ? Or is it the player who wants that ?
Silverthumb128 10-02-06, 01:34 PM	If you allow me, just one question... You are playing a human character who wants to become a warforged ? A machine made of metal, without any real sense ? From what he said, the PrC eventually turns the character into a Warforged. Taking 10 levels of that PrC probably would tell me they want to become a Warforged. If they didn't want to become Warforged, well, they'd know to avoid it. Kind of an obvious question. Or is it the player who wants that ? He used the term GM, rather than I, so I'm guessing its his character. To answer your questions, Hand of Vecna, I'd say that unless the rules say so, you wouldn't lose your Bonus Feat. Skill points wouldn't be lost, but you wouldn't continue gaining the extra skill point, either. Human only feats, you'd still have them, but anything with the Human prerequisite wouldn't be useable, since you no longer meet that prerequisite. Basically, it'd be a dead feat slot: Unable to take something in its place, but unable to use the feat that's there.
PhaedrusXY 10-02-06, 01:35 PM	without any real sense ?Warforged are intelligent, and they are alive. They are not "simple" machines. And they quite likely live for a very long time, perhaps indefinitely, and they can ignore alot of the frailties that come with being human. So yeah, I can understand why someone would want to turn into one if they could... especially if said person is old, or is afraid of death. Liches are horrid, rotting, walking corpses, but people certainly don't have any problems wondering why some spellcasters turn themselves into them. Edit: To contribute to the actual topic: According to the sage, you gain and lose racial bonus feats when you change from one form to another with Polymorph and similiar spells. This includes humans losing their bonus feats. I think this is pretty ridiculous, but that's what he said. Take it however you want. However, when a human becomes an undead via a template like Lich, they keep their bonus feats and skill points. I think this is more similiar to your situation.
HermitIX 10-02-06, 01:38 PM	i dont think you loose your feats, but you do loose any benifet for them becouse you no longer meet the requirements. you will loose the human bonus feat and the skill points. becouse you are no longer human.
dragonseth 10-02-06, 02:35 PM	I would treat this as if you become Dragonborn. You lose the feat and skill points. Here is where I differ from it though, you are no longer human. Period. So, you your Human-only feats don't work. But, I'd probably let you switch them out for other feats.
Hand of Vecna 10-02-06, 03:05 PM	Sorry for the confusion -- yes, my character wants to become a Construct. He's a Shaper, his main thing's Astral Constructs, and he's sorta got it in his mind to find a way to create a new race of permanent intelligent Astral Constructs, with himself as their god. He's also considering taking the Warforged Juggernaut PrC (from the Eberron core book), to become even more like a Construct (with none of the "frailties of traditional life"). Could retraining (from Player's Handbook II) be used to fill the "dead feat" slots with useable feats? Thanks for your help, all. Seems there's more confusion than just my own in this matter.
Dragon3 10-02-06, 03:19 PM	Wouldn't Green Star Adept do as well for you as you turn into a construct straight. You lose out on 5 levels of spellcasting but then again you would on juggernaut.
Grey_Mage 10-02-06, 07:08 PM	As far as I can interpret the rules you dont lose skill points that are already assigned- you just dont get the bonus skill point a level at any level hereafter. You dont lose your bonus feat. You can no longer use your human only feats as you no longer meet the prerequisites. Yes the PHBII would allow you to retrain them, with DM permission of course. This is all based off a simple reading of the rules, and some previous experiance with the situation through the rules of reincarnation spells.
Shedeo 10-03-06, 12:37 AM	You wouldn't lose your bonus feat or skill points. You also would continue to gain them. Afterall, you're gaining the benefits of becoming a living construct by class features. You're still human, you're just a living construct human. It doesn't make any sense for you to lose your bonus sill points. You're race isn't really changing to warforged. Take it like the Dragon Disciple. You become a half dragon, but you're still human or whatever your base race is.
Nexis 10-03-06, 01:44 AM	Just a minor thing... Might wanna make yourself a psiforged instead of a warforged, if your gm allows of course. Kinda fits more thematically :D
dragonseth 10-03-06, 07:58 AM	Take it like the Dragon Disciple. You become a half dragon, but you're still human or whatever your base race is. Yeah, but Half-Dragon is a template. Warforged is not. Warforged is a base race. Which is why I look to Dragonborn for guidance. It says that you lose all things from your previous race, including bonus feats and bonus skill points.
Hand of Vecna 10-03-06, 10:19 AM	Wouldn't Green Star Adept do as well for you as you turn into a construct straight. You lose out on 5 levels of spellcasting but then again you would on juggernaut. I was thinking of that one, but looking over it, it just dind't... click with the character. Hard to describe. Just a minor thing... Might wanna make yourself a psiforged instead of a warforged, if your gm allows of course. Kinda fits more thematically :D I was thinking that, and it would fit, but then I couldn't take Warforged Juggernaut (which requires taking Adamantine Body, which would preclude taking the Psicrystal Body with you must take to be a Psiforged), and he does want to become more and more Construct-y.
Shedeo 10-03-06, 01:07 PM	Right, but the thing is that your race isn't actually changing to warforged, you're just gaining their traits. Besides, it makes no sense for him to lose his human qualities. They're not physical qualities, they're mental qualities. Also, if I'm not mistaken, it says that you gain all these benefits, but it never says (like in the Dragonborne race) that you lose anything because your race does not actually change.
Archangel62 10-03-06, 01:09 PM	Unless it specifically states that you lose it, you don't.
Cifer 10-03-06, 05:06 PM	What a little bit of rules-reading can accomplish... You change your type into living construct, with you getting all the advantages and disadvantages of this. You further are treated as a warforged in order to meet prereqs and requirements. Finally, you get a warforged feat, which may be a WF-level-1-only. Meaning: You don't lose any racial traits. You don't get WF racial traits except for living construct. End of story.
Hand of Vecna 03-14-07, 04:23 PM	Living Construct isn't a type, though, it's a subtype. A subtype which can only be applied to Constructs, AFAIK.
Xaktsaroth 03-15-07, 02:12 AM	Living Construct isn't a type, though, it's a subtype. A subtype which can only be applied to Constructs, AFAIK. Except this PrC makes a special exception in this case. Cifer is 100% right. You gain the living construct subtype, count as a warforged for pre-req's and gain any warforged feat. Reading the passage makes no mention of having to give up previous racial traits(as a Dragonborn specifically does), and since DnD tends to give you the information of things you CAN do, it seems quite clear to me that you would keep all human racial traits, as you aren't a new race. Your a human, who due to the intergration of warforged components into yourself can be effected by things that effect warforged. Period.
Ace_of_time 03-17-07, 12:12 AM	Warforged are work horses and way to powerful. Never sleep,eat, breath. but us spellcaster will never say a words as long as we get a full night of sleep. hack with craft skill on them at high bonuses you don't to heal them that often. we used to call ours the atom bomb. Warforged with admit body, 3 up for DR, and then have everyone help out on a brilliant energy greatsword. If he has to wake you up at night you had better start running.
Part-Human2 03-17-07, 01:28 AM	Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type. So he should end up as Construct (Living Construct, Augumented Humanoid, Human) Oddly the way the ability is written using "Living Construct" as the new type but it is only a subtype.
Xaktsaroth 03-17-07, 01:41 AM	So he should end up as Construct (Living Construct, Augumented Humanoid, Human) Oddly the way the ability is written using "Living Construct" as the new type but it is only a subtype. Your misunderstanding, he doesn't ACTUALLY become a warforged. He starts with Humanoid(human). When he hits level 10 RMM, he becomes: Humanoid(human, living construct).
Part-Human2 03-17-07, 02:42 AM	Your misunderstanding, he doesn't ACTUALLY become a warforged. He starts with Humanoid(human). When he hits level 10 RMM, he becomes: Humanoid(human, living construct). You're misunderstanding. How can he be "Living Construct" subtype when Living Construct is a subtype of Type Constructs only AND it says he gains "Living Construct" as his Type?
ArcTan 03-17-07, 03:04 AM	If you allow me, just one question... You are playing a human character who wants to become a warforged ? A machine made of metal, without any real sense ? Warforged are sentient beings with emotion and free will. That's the point of the race. Renegade Mastermakers aren't supposed to be the sanest people in the world, but what they want isn't completely irrational -- they believe that WF are physically superior to human beings (which, well, they are) and that with their much more malleable, controllable, disciplined personalities they're destined to replace humanity as the world's dominant race.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 03:06 AM	Just a minor thing... Might wanna make yourself a psiforged instead of a warforged, if your gm allows of course. Kinda fits more thematically :D It'd also be a blatant self-nerf, since Psiforged Body is a lot less useful than Adamantine Body. (Which would you rather have starting at level 1, full plate with which you're proficient, or a cognizance crystal?) Psiforged Body is only of real use to people who are seriously hurting for power points -- for a Psion it's a drop in the bucket compared to the coolness of having adamantine armor all the time. So ironically it's Psychic Warriors or people who have dipped into a manifesting class who want Psiforged Body, not primary manifesters.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 03:07 AM	You're misunderstanding. How can he be "Living Construct" subtype when Living Construct is a subtype of Type Constructs only AND it says he gains "Living Construct" as his Type? Because rules create exceptions to other rules, a la the Golden Rule of Magic (the other famous WotC product)?
Part-Human2 03-17-07, 01:56 PM	Because rules create exceptions to other rules, a la the Golden Rule of Magic (the other famous WotC product)? Okay then following the rules (read the ability), he'd be a Living Construct (Augumented Humanoid, Human).
Xaktsaroth 03-17-07, 05:02 PM	Okay then following the rules (read the ability), he'd be a Living Construct (Augumented Humanoid, Human). No, your getting hung up on the fact that you've only seen constructs have the trait before. Changing their type to Living Construct is a typo, they meant subtype, as the living construct type doesn't exist.
Part-Human2 03-17-07, 07:29 PM	No, your getting hung up on the fact that you've only seen constructs have the trait before. Changing their type to Living Construct is a typo, they meant subtype, as the living construct type doesn't exist. Aha, so that's the only mistake they made and the mistake wasn't "change the type to Construct and add the Living Construct subtype." It couldn't have been a typo because they would have said "add" instead of change, unless you think they meant that as well. I think you're wrong. This isn't an exception changing a Construct subtype (read the Living Subtype entry) into something that can be added to other types; this is the writers' or editors' confusion and/or poor writing. Of course, each their own until there is official clarification. Care to ask Cust Serv?
docballen 03-17-07, 07:55 PM	It'd also be a blatant self-nerf, since Psiforged Body is a lot less useful than Adamantine Body. (Which would you rather have starting at level 1, full plate with which you're proficient, or a cognizance crystal?) . Yeah, I need to interject a question here. (which might affect this discussion.) I created a warforged and gave him Adamantine Body at level one. Not "warforged juggernaught" level one, but "character level" one (his first feat). So, if I had created a warforged and played him until level six, and then decided to take Warforged juggernaught, could I just add "adamantine body" at the next feat I acquire, or did it have to be waaaay back when the character was first created??? Because, if I had to add "adamantine body" when the character was initially created... then a human who is trying to turn himself into a warforged is never gonna be able to turn himself into a "juggernaught". (I haven't been able to obtain the "Magic of Ebberon" book, nor read the PrC "Renegade Mastermaker" so please forgive this stoopid question.)
dragonseth 03-17-07, 09:38 PM	Adamantine Body has a prerequisite, "Can only be taken at 1st level." So, you can't take it at sixth level.
Grod_The_Giant 03-17-07, 09:55 PM	I would have to say "yes,you keep all your feats/skill points," simply because loosing them is illogical and confusing. First, as I see it, the Human Only feats are more mental then anything. He's not changing is mind when he finishes the PrC. Secondly, it's confusing. You have to go over your whole sheet, raking out 1 skill point/level, five or so feats, related bonuses...messy.
Hand of Vecna 03-18-07, 01:06 AM	When you reach level 10 in the Renegade Mastermaker PrC, you gain a bonus Warforged feat, and it can be one that could normally only be taken at first level. They even give Mithral body as an example. So, yes, it would seem they could take Adamantine body -- they've become a Living Construct/Warforged (or at least reasonably close to one, close enough to count as Warforged for purposes of prereqs and such), and an RM could choose to become a Living Construct that was sheathed in Adamantine, or Mithral, or Psychoactive Crystal (by taking Adamantine Body, Mithral Body,or Psiforged Body, respectively). Construct (Augumented Humanoid, Human, Living Construct) seems to me to be the best and most accurate/logical way to do it.
Ace_of_time 03-18-07, 10:07 PM	As with reincarnate spell when you change to a different race you keep all mental abilities and the only things that change is the physcal ones. And you gain the abilities of the new race. it would be the same here. Now if you keep a subtype of human then you can still use your human only feats. If you don't want them any more you can ask your DM for a rebuilding quest to change the feats to new ones. the at first level feat are so you know that you can't be made of wood one level and metal the next that that is a choice that is to be made when you are made so I don't see why you should not be able to choose it when you change or you could get it in the quest with DM aproval. You would not get the skill points from then on. Don't for get the DR up to if you do a Rebuild.
G_Mancer 03-18-07, 11:44 PM	there is a PrC in complete Arcane which augments you slowly over 10 lvls untill finally you become elemental. i think this is more similar than anything else anyone has mentioned. in the case where you turn into an elemental, you would not lose feats or skills.
Spikes01k 03-18-07, 11:45 PM	I would have to say "yes,you keep all your feats/skill points," simply because loosing them is illogical and confusing. First, as I see it, the Human Only feats are more mental then anything. He's not changing is mind when he finishes the PrC. Secondly, it's confusing. You have to go over your whole sheet, raking out 1 skill point/level, five or so feats, related bonuses...messy. I agree with you here, but I would make them stop the skill point progresstion from that point on.
sooperspook 03-19-07, 10:43 AM	I agree with you here, but I would make them stop the skill point progresstion from that point on. Except that would contradict what the rules actually say. You still retain your human subtype with the RM, you just gain another subtype on top of that.
Part-Human2 03-19-07, 12:05 PM	The 10th level Renegade Mastermaker Construct Exemplar ability says "type changes to living construct" but the living construct is a subtype limited to constructs. Should this say type changes to construct with the living construct subtype? Or is this some sort of exception? Or should the living construct subtype be added to the humanoid type of the character? Thank you for contacting us. You're correct. You would become a creature with the Construct type and the Living Construct subtype. Good Gaming! Chris. Customer Service Supervisor So Construct (Living Construct, Human, Augumented Humanoid). Being subtype Human allows qualifications for Human-only feats, PrC'sb etc (RoD).
Hand of Vecna 03-19-07, 08:26 PM	Hunh, I've sentt hem that question at least three times, and never received an answer. Glad someone did! And even gladder that the answer seems to make sense!