Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bujio 04-11-08, 01:38 AM	I always assume, I don't know why, that most of the humans in the Fantasy settings I read are White Caucasians, which really makes very little sense to me considering the way Our earth is. We have people of all sorts of colors and sizes and ethnicities. As I was contemplating this, all the different colors we as humans come in, a thought occurred to me. Just because we come in all these different colors, which really seem to be variants on tans and earthy tones all around, doesn't mean that these are the only colors that we "could" come in, given enough time and adaptability. This is hypothetical, of course, but why couldn't we have blue humans, or green humans, firey red humans, or royal purple humans. My mind seems to recall something on different human races covered in a Pseudo-religious text called the "Urantia Book" which describes people of all different colors, like Indigo and such. Honestly I don't know if that's what it was talking about, but I was just thinking I would throw out this interesting idea for anyone who likes to think outside the box. There's no reason it couldn't apply to other races as well, but when it comes to humans, I think people think of them only in terms of how they are and how they were on Earth, and not what they could be elsewhere. What does everyone think about this? Would such a thing have any real impact on the campaign, or do you think such superficial things are merely cosmetic and would have very little impact if ever implemented?
SolEiji 04-11-08, 01:46 AM	It's cosmetic. I'd like to see the background story for purple or gray or plaid humans, but anything can be justified I suppose. Actually at the moment I am presently surprised on that one of my players in a campaign is a brown skinned barbarian, bronzed from her life in the desert. It's good flavor. I would imagine really that whatever conditions might drive humans to have tones of skin other than some shade of brown might push them far enough to make them a subrace (like the pitch black drow vs the some-tone-of-brown elves), but this is just speculation.
Bobfred21 04-11-08, 01:46 AM	Well, the one problem with that idea is why humans would suddenly come in another colour? There is currently no reason on earth for large segments of our race to be purple or flaming red or green, what changes in a fantasy setting? Yes, you could say it's magic but that kind of turns them into their own seperate race if you ask me. As in they used to be humans but then magic played it's part and now they have purple skin and probably other mutations too. I'm not a huge fan of this idea, however if you like it then it's easy to draw from real world examples of how this could effect the world. Skin colour can be polarizing in certain situations as can be seen by so many of the political issues in the past revolving around racism, with a skin colour as exotic (and I would argue unnatural) as purple or something like that then yeah, you could do some really interesting things with it.
Salla 04-11-08, 01:59 AM	I always assume, I don't know why, that most of the humans in the Fantasy settings I read are White Caucasians, which really makes very little sense to me considering the way Our earth is. Unless your D&D game actually takes place on our Earth, in our history, this is an irrelevant argument. There's no reason a game world should progress along the same lines as our own; in fact, it strains credibility for me if they do.
M-bark 04-11-08, 02:35 AM	Unless your D&D game actually takes place on our Earth, in our history, this is an irrelevant argument. There's no reason a game world should progress along the same lines as our own; in fact, it strains credibility for me if they do. Though it may strain credibility if a fantasy race would develop near exactly as on our world, I think it also strains credibility if all the races would come in only one skin tone if they live all around the world. Races who would hardly ever come into the sunlight would either be very pale (due to no need for protection from the little to no sunlight) or very dark (as camouflage). Races who live in hot areas would generally have darker skin tones than those in cold areas. While this does not necessarily mean there should be "black" and "white" people, you could have "navy" and "crimson" ones.
Jaxgaret 04-11-08, 02:21 PM	I always assume, I don't know why, that most of the humans in the Fantasy settings I read are White Caucasians, which really makes very little sense to me considering the way Our earth is. Why would you assume that most of the humans in the fantasy settings you read are white caucasians? If the race isn't specified, then they could be anything. What does everyone think about this? Would such a thing have any real impact on the campaign, or do you think such superficial things are merely cosmetic and would have very little impact if ever implemented? It would have zero impact on the game, unless intra-species racism is a feature of your campaigns.
Bujio 04-11-08, 03:29 PM	Why would you assume that most of the humans in the fantasy settings you read are white caucasians? If the race isn't specified, then they could be anything. This is a very good question. Part of it could be just me projecting personal experience...but I think that the most of it stems from looking at the covers of the books that I'm reading. Even a lot of the non-humans are drawn as white. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying that it strikes me as odd one way or the other how Tasslehoff Burfoot, Tanis Half-Elven, and Flint Fireforge are all white and they aren't even the same race. But as for the other color humans, I was thinking about things that would cause them to have other skin tones, and I don't count magic because magic isn't a natural change. In my speculation, given the right time and circumstance, humans could get these "Unnatural" colorings even on our own earth, so why not elsewhere. A few places that I think it would be possible, if not likely for other colorings to show up would be on the plains. If humans were on the plains of Baator, maybe he would get a red tinge to his skin, as I consider Baator to look positively crimson. Maybe humans in Araborea would look green becase of all the grass. I could be way off though. It's just my thinking.
ciaran 04-11-08, 06:59 PM	But as for the other color humans, I was thinking about things that would cause them to have other skin tones, and I don't count magic because magic isn't a natural change. In my speculation, given the right time and circumstance, humans could get these "Unnatural" colorings even on our own earth, so why not elsewhere. The theory as it stands is that the unnatural "white" skin tone was something that developed long after our species inception. Thats not an an attack, btw. I takw your meaning completely. Race, as it pertains to skin color is something that never comes up in games I play. On occasion, perhaps, a PC from a certain locale will be whatever shade desired, but I don't think its necessary. In the real world, in the US in particular, race is an everpresent reminder of how ****ed up we are. Maybe things here aren't as volotile as in times past, but the American culture consists of so much of race related conflict, abuse and predjudice that we don't even realize it - it was the long term effects of racial strife that finally settled into what what "American Culture" is. This is way too big an issue for a fantasy RPG forum. Bottom line, its a fantasy game - not real life - and I personally intend to keep it that way. Keep issues where they belong. Rant is done. I don't have a problem with anyone playing whatever color person they like. :)
i_will_eat_monkeys 04-11-08, 07:17 PM	well you can make you person any color you want. the reason people pick white is because well other unearthly tones (such as red, blue, etc) are different. and most people like to be in the "norm." then after more people change to "different" colors the more racist could start. then you would have civil wars and no one wants that. its just like how "black" people were discriminated. i used "" when i said "black" people because i well i don't see them like that, but most people see them like that and ergo ""
Bujio 04-11-08, 10:56 PM	I understand completely and I agree with you. Racism and Prejudice is reflected well in RPG in other races, the Beholder coming to my mind. In Spelljammer, it is said that the Beholders could rule the spaceways if they weren't so 'racist' against differences in their own race to the point where they will actually side with other races or species to take down the 'lesser' Beholders. You are right, racism is way too huge a topic for an RPG forum, I wasn't wanting the topic to go quite that far, I was just wanting to inquire peoples views on whether they thought it was plausible to have other other skin colors naturally or whatever. Thank you all for your replies. I do appreciate it. :)
Jaxgaret 04-12-08, 12:52 AM	The theory as it stands is that the unnatural "white" skin tone was something that developed long after our species inception. White skin is not unnatural, it is the result of evolution. The evolution of the different skin tones is thought to have occurred as follows: the haired ancestors of humans, like modern great apes, had light skin under their hair. Once they encountered baldness, they evolved dark skin, needed to prevent low folate levels since they lived in sun-rich Africa. (The skin cancer connection is probably of secondary importance, since skin cancer usually kills only after the reproductive age and therefore does not exert much evolutionary pressure.) When humans migrated to less sun-intensive regions in the north, low vitamin D3 levels became a problem and light skin color re-emerged. The Inuit and Yupik are special cases: even though they live in an extremely sun-poor environment, they have retained their relatively dark skin. This can be explained by the fact that their traditional animal-based diet provides plenty of vitamin D. The most recent scientific evidence indicates that all humans evolved in Africa, then populated the rest of the world through successive radiations. It is most likely that the first people had relatively large numbers of eumelanin producing melanocytes and, accordingly, darker skin (as displayed by the indigenous people of Africa, today). As some of these original peoples migrated and settled in areas of Asia and Europe, the selective pressure for eumelanin production decreased in climates where radiation from the sun was less intense. Thus variations in genes involved in melanin production began to appear in the population, resulting in lighter hair and skin in humans residing at northern latitudes. Studies have been carried out to determine whether these changes were due to genetic drift or positive selection, perhaps driven by requirement for vitamin D. Of the two common gene variants known to be associated with pale human skin, Mc1r does not appear to have undergone positive selection, while SLC24A5 has. Further reading: NY Times Article (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C03E0DE1030F93AA2575B C0A9659C8B63&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1).
Jaxgaret 04-12-08, 12:57 AM	I was just wanting to inquire peoples views on whether they thought it was plausible to have other skin colors naturally or whatever. Sure, why not?
Giradius 04-12-08, 01:26 AM	Buijo never mentioned Racism when he started the thread, he merely stated that he visualized most Fantasy humans (and demihumans)as white Caucasians, and if other more bizarre colors where possible. I personally am the same, the reason for this is simply that most modern Fantasy is based on European mythology, and medieval Europe. Dwarves are Caucasian because they are creatures from Norse Myth, as are elves, however with that said, if i am playing a human from a fantasy culture that is not based on medieval Europe i adopt the ethnicity of the next most similar culture (or if its totally original, the terrain the land is based on), for instance I had a red wizard character from thay in FR, he was Arab/Mediterranean looking, black hair (what hair he did have), dark eyes, caramel skin tone, wiry build. I see nothing racist about the predominance of Caucasians in western fantasy, its based on medieval Europe, ergo they will be similar to Europeans, if you are playing in Rokugan, then the predominance will be on Japanese style culture and thus Asian ethnicity. Regarding the weird skin tones, unless there is evolutionary pressure to develop strange pigmentation, it probably wont happen, even different colored light would have a nominal effect, as the light spectrum is limited in its effect as an evolutionary pressure (too high in the spectrum and you get cooked, too low and there is no reason to evolve a defence against it), also colouration is partly affected by the color of the blood, a human with green blood would be more likely to have a green tinted skin, on Caucasians skin tones tends toward pinkish, this is not noticeable so much on darker skins because the pigment is so dark (this is why its hard to see black people blush).
SilverFoxKnows 04-12-08, 11:02 AM	I don't have any purple people on my homebrew world but the Human kingdoms are in no way all white folks. Brown skinned Humans have played an important part in several plot lines.
ciaran 04-12-08, 12:29 PM	White skin is not unnatural, it is the result of evolution. Quotation marks should have also gone around "unnatural" as well as white. That wasn't a negative statement about light skin. Interesting reading BTW. And sorry Bujio, I went overboard! I know you weren't intending this thread to that direction.
kelvinaw273 04-12-08, 01:15 PM	Humans are mammals, and mammals are more limited in their colouration than reptiles and birds. Generally mammals are limited to red, brown, yellow and colourless shades, and so humans will be as well. However, humans are unusual in that they are largely monochromatic - humans with polychromatic hair and skin might evolve, but only in environments where they would not wear much clothing. As for perceptions of 'humans' in fantasy games, it's probably a case of people see what they are used to.
Bujio 04-12-08, 01:54 PM	Humans are mammals, and mammals are more limited in their colouration than reptiles and birds. Generally mammals are limited to red, brown, yellow and colourless shades, and so humans will be as well. However, humans are unusual in that they are largely monochromatic - humans with polychromatic hair and skin might evolve, but only in environments where they would not wear much clothing. As for perceptions of 'humans' in fantasy games, it's probably a case of people see what they are used to. I never thought of that before, but I know I should have. People with spots!! Or other color patterns. Sweet and awesome. You could have Dalmation humans, Tiger Stripe humans, and humans with consistent patterns. That would be pretty sweet. @Ciaran: Not a problem, really. Nearly any post can be taken in a negative concept, especially when they just touch on subjects that people take to heart. I'm sorry if anything said DID give cause for offense, but I always hope that my concepts are enough put in a positive direction to avoid that kind of offense.
Giradius 04-12-08, 05:49 PM	My Homebrew setting follows scientific reasoning (for the most part) and so evolution has ensured that my world has its various skin tones, in fact many of the cultures have parallels with real world culture through history, I have pale nordic barbarian types (Norns), Olive skinned people near the equator (my worlds Greeks), darker skinned desert dwelling people (the people of Herat), I even have an oriental race (the chou), however I do have a race of humans that are chalk white with strange tints to their hair and eyes (Red, blue, etc) but they are an extinct race that worshipped dragons and legends say that they have draconic blood. I dont lump all races in as caucasian, if the culture is european based, the people are european based, if the culture is Arabesq the people are arab based, if the culture is alien or completly origional, then if this culture exists in a place similar to northern europe, or a desert, then I adjust accordingly.
Grod_The_Giant 04-12-08, 05:59 PM	why couldn't we have blue humans, or green humans, firey red humans, or royal purple humans. well, scientifically speaking, it's because skin color is determined by the pigment melanin, in relationship to the amount of sunlight (and thus vitamin D). We started out dark-skinned in sunny Africa. When we moved up into Europe, we didn't get so much sun, and were vitamin D deprived, so we developed lighter skin to let us absorb more.
Bujio 04-12-08, 06:11 PM	well, scientifically speaking, it's because skin color is determined by the pigment melanin, in relationship to the amount of sunlight (and thus vitamin D). We started out dark-skinned in sunny Africa. When we moved up into Europe, we didn't get so much sun, and were vitamin D deprived, so we developed lighter skin to let us absorb more. Does that then make it scientifically impossible to get other "unnatural" shades? I mean, what about people with Red Skin like Indians and American Indians? Or the Yellowish tint of Asian people? I mean if you just count melanin, why are there different colors all around instead of just light and dark?
ragoftag 04-12-08, 08:51 PM	I gave humans a default brown skin with dark hair, with a number of 'sub-races' having the standard 'Earth' variations. These are also linked to certain specific cultures in-game and have mechanical effects in-game. E.G: The Reathan are a 'race' given over to arcane magic and all must start as Sorcerers, and it is always their Favored Class. They are nearly pure albinos with startling, ice blue eyes. There are a few 'sub-races' modified by evil wizards of old to sport certain features (dark-vision, etc.), including patterned and unusually colored skin. One npc a party met had a magnificent, feathered crest! He was key to a quest where unusual features mattered, and he helped set the tone.
Holy_Beholder 04-12-08, 09:23 PM	Does that then make it scientifically impossible to get other "unnatural" shades? I mean, what about people with Red Skin like Indians and American Indians? Or the Yellowish tint of Asian people? I mean if you just count melanin, why are there different colors all around instead of just light and dark? Except for its only a slight hint of red on a brown color, or a slight hint of yellow on a tan or brown color. Multiple genes control skin color, and there is variance of red and yellow colors, but it really has no reason to go to deep purple or anything. Everyone is pretty much a shade of brown(or albino), with slight coloration(there is always a slight red and yellow tint, which looks different depending on how strong it is, although it is never really strong, and what the normal skin color is. But it is really faint.
Bujio 04-12-08, 11:19 PM	Except for its only a slight hint of red on a brown color, or a slight hint of yellow on a tan or brown color. Multiple genes control skin color, and there is variance of red and yellow colors, but it really has no reason to go to deep purple or anything. Everyone is pretty much a shade of brown(or albino), with slight coloration(there is always a slight red and yellow tint, which looks different depending on how strong it is, although it is never really strong, and what the normal skin color is. But it is really faint. That makes sense to me. I do kind of wish I had studied more of this in school, but I never saw a need for it except for just recently in D&D.
DarthWyyrlok 04-13-08, 03:49 AM	I don't know if this helps any, but I'm actually planning on creating a race of "near-humans" that are distantly (read: VERY distantly) descended from dragons and humans. I can see them having, if not odd skin, at least odd colored hair or something, to reflect their slight draconic heritage. It helps explain why they are a bit "unnatural", but it doesn't give them any special bonuses or anything, other than maybe an affinity for draconic feats.
squidyak 04-13-08, 11:34 AM	I see no reason you can't have purple humans. Different worlds could have different atmospheres, different radiations from the sun, different mineral contents, etc. This could all very well add up to different skin tones from what we are used to. As far as picturing mostly white characters, of course you do. Most campaigns are euro-centric, with the odd asian or arab character thrown in. Very rarely do you see characters with african or meso-american cultures. You don't have to play in such settings though. There's always Maztica, Al-Qadim, or Nyambe (which I highly recommend.) In my campaigns I try not to stray from stereotypes (not every use of the word stereotypes is negative) too far. Giving a familiar feel in a very unfamiliar game world allows for greater interaction by the players. If the world is too far detached from the real, different players and the dm often develop different expectations from the world around them. I even try to use human models for non-human races. My elves are asian. Not accurately asian, more of an asian culture superimposed over Tolkien, but unmistakingly asian. This allows two things. First, it gives a easily explainable measure of cultural differences between humans and elves. If you want a good measure of cultural problems between humans and elves you simply have to use cultural problems between asians and europeans as a guide. Secondly, it allows a believable reason for an asian-themed character to exist in a predominantly european model. Knights and Samurai come from completely different cultures, and simply won't exist in neighboring kingdoms without some good reason. Human-modeled demi-human cultures gives a plausible reason.
Holy_Beholder 04-13-08, 12:52 PM	Most published settings are eurocentric. I think most people use their own setting though, and I know that I have had a lot which related more to Arab and African cultures. Stuff like how being a host was important, and being a bad host was unspeakably rude(which also applied to the vikings, in the far north. I think that this has a lot to do with how inhospitable deserts and tundra can be). I also copied a lot from the book Things Fall Apart, with sacred animals and folk lore, and even how houses are set. Then I just have stuff like how big optics are, how people don't draw people, geometric tiles, deserts, lots of camels, etc. So I have to wonder about the eurocentric thing.
Thamius 04-14-08, 01:03 PM	One could make the argument that modern-day racism is the result of the lack of interspecies competition for dominance on Earth, thus we have to find some other excuse to justify conflict. Introduce an intelligent non-human threat on Earth and I think our minor skin-color differences would quickly be put behind us. (I'm sensing a campaign, racist humans fighting each other have to be united to fight a non-human threat...) In the game, humans are mechanically treated as the same regardless of skin color, thus it rarely comes up. Nothing limits you to the variety of skin pigmentation existing on Earth. I've noticed that Paizo's Dragon and Dungeon magazines had pictures of human NPCs with a wide variety of skin and hair colors (OK, maybe not purple or spotted, but as varied as we are here), a trend that continues with Pathfinder (e.g. Sheriff Hemlock, IIRC). The physical descriptions and mechanics of these NPCs are all generic, however, because skin color is mechanically irrelevant. Expanding the racial analysis of the game, are the elven sub-species so different that they rate different ability adjustments? Wood elves aren't just culturally different from high elves? Genetics vs Environment? Human sub-species could easily be created that are mechanically differentiated from each other, although with the number of other races to choose from in a fantasy setting why bother?
Bujio 04-14-08, 05:04 PM	@ Thamius: I agree with what you are saying. I like that idea for a campaign, I really do. If we had so many non-human races to play with, would we really be bothered if someone had skin of a different color? I doubt it. I don't think elves should have different ability adjustments, to be honest in my mind. I think that the cultural flavor should vary, but the abilities...nah. My one exception here would be the aquatic elves, who would necessarily have to have different abilities. I would argue that aquatic humans could exist and would have to have different abilities from other humans in that circumstance.
cloud413 04-14-08, 05:27 PM	I think the closest humans come to spots is freckles.
Lotus Crane 04-14-08, 05:49 PM	I would argue that aquatic humans could exist and would have to have different abilities from other humans in that circumstance. I believe "aquatic humans" already exist in the form of the aventi (Stormwrack).
ragoftag 04-14-08, 06:12 PM	And then there are birthmarks. Medical conditions such as Vitiligo and Psoriasis produce some degree of spotting as well. The only 'stripes I can think of are varicose veins!