Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RandomFellow 01-05-08, 02:31 PM	Inaran Fae Fine Fey Hit Dice: 1d6 (2) Initiative: +9 Speed: 0' (0 squares), fly 60' (Perfect) (12 squares) (Su) Ability Armor Class: 22 (+8 size, +4 dex),touch 15, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-19 Attack: Cold Iron Short sword +13 melee (1+5/19-20) Full Attack: Cold Iron Short sword +13 melee (1+5/19-20) Space/Reach: 6"/0' Special Attacks: Psi-Like Abilities Special Qualities: Misdirection, Telekinetic Entity, Telepathy 120', Spell Resistance 16 Saves: Fort -1, Ref +6, Will +7 Abilities: Str 4, Dex 18, Con 9, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 19 Skills: Hide +25 Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse B, Precise Blow B Environment: Temperate Forests Organization: Solitary (1), Raiding Party (8), or tribe (50-200) Challenge Rating: 5 Treasure: Items only Alignment: Usually Evil Advancement: By Character Class (Usually, Sorcerer or Wilder) Level Adjustment: +5 Inaran Fae are treacherous, evil creatures of the night which descend without warning on various villages to enslave local populations, increase the size of their undead army, and steal valuable resources (primarily cold iron, the preferred weapon for slaying their pixie cousins). These dangerous creatures lack the modern mastery of magic enjoyed by most civilized societies, however, they still possess 'wild talent' in abundance. Every adult Inaran Fae is capable of unleashing powerful bolts of energy or enticing the weak-willed into obedience. The Inaran Fae rarely wear anything beyond a masterwork dark cloak, helpful for hiding their small forms against the dark night sky, or armor. An Inaran Fae stands about 6 inches tall and weighs about 1 ounce. Inaran Fae speak their Tribal language and occasionally, common. Although a few of the more powerful tribes have formed temporary alliances with, and by natural consequence learned the languages of, gnolls, orcs, bugbears, ogres, and other dangerous monstrous races. Combat Psi-Like Abilities 2/day - Energy Missile (Acid Arrow if no Psionics), Charm, Psionic (Charm Monster if no Psionics). Manifester Level (Caster Level if no Psionics) 8th. The save Dcs are charisma based. Treat Energy Missile as if it is augmented to by 2 pp (+2 DC, +2d6 damage). Charm, Psionic as if it is augmented by 4pp (+2 DC, can target animal, fey, giant, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, aberration, dragon, elemental, or outsider ) Misdirection (Su) An Inaran Fae is invisible, even when attacking. It may suppress or resume this ability as a free action. Telekinetic Entity (Su) The Inaran Fae also use their telekinetic talents to propel themselves, granting them a fly speed of 60' and a maneuverability of perfect. They also may replace their strength modifier with their charisma modifier for purposes of carrying capacity. In addition, the Inaran Fae attempts to slow any hostile weapons before it can strike the Fae. This grants it DR 10/cold iron. Telepathy (Su) An Inaran Fae may communicate to any creature that speaks a language in common with the Inaran Fae. -=-=-=-=-=-=- Lore Knowledge: Nature DC|Lore 10|The dangerous, uncivilized creatures which hunt people by night.| 15|A subrace of the Pixies, these unsophisticated fell creatures enslave, create undead, and steal to increase their power.| 20|The most effective way to kill one of the Inaran Fae is with magic which can only be stopped by the strength of a person's constitution. The Inaran Fae are creatures with frail bodies unable to withstand even the least of rigors. Even then, their powerful minds are able to stop weak wizards from affecting them.| 25|The Inaran Fae are the product of a hybridization of Drow and Devil magics worked on captured pixies. Originally intended to be a servant race capable of sneaking about with supernatural ease, the Inaran Fae turned out to be too skilled at their given vocation. Large numbers escaped once they realized their personal interests would be better served outside their creators societies.| Other Base Stats for the example creature is 10,11,10,10,11,11 Inaran Pixies as Characters -6 Strength, +8 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +6 Wisdom, +8 Charisma Fine Size: +8 bonus to Armor Class, +8 bonus to Attack Rolls, -16 penalty on Grapple Checks, +16 bonus on Hide checks An Inaran Pixie's base land speed is 0 feet. An Inaran Fae's base fly speed is 60 feet with perfect maneuverability. Racial Feats: Weapon Finesse, Precise Blow Special Qualities (See Above): Telekinetic Entity, Telepathy, Spell Resistance equal to 15 + HD Automatic Languages: Inaran Tribal. Bonus Languages: Common Favored Class: Any Level Adjustment: +5 Precise Blow Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, Dex 16 Benefit: When using a weapon which benefits from the Weapon Finesse feat, you may apply your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier for weapon damage rolls.
Devigod 01-05-08, 07:47 PM	A little over the top. Especially with precise blow. It's your game, but you should never eliminate the Strength score. It's unbalanced if players use it as a dumpstat and replace it with Dexterity and Charisma. Precise blow is too powerful for it's own good, it shouldn't be rolled into a feat. As a class feature, it requires Elf or Half-Elf and two levels of Champion of Correllon Larethian. Maybe I'm just BSing, but I think you should just give them a strength score back. I was also wondering how they create zombies with no abilities to do so. Charm only works for influencing a creatures actions and doesn't let them do things that they beleive are morally wrong. Dominate or its psionic variant may be what you're looking for, but charm just makes people inclined to your suggestions, not enslaved to them. A slowing field of armor would provide a deflection bonus to AC, not Damage Reduction. Sorry if I sounded brutal. It's just really over the top in melee and casting...
war_thog 01-05-08, 08:39 PM	That epic cha and dex bonus is a bit ridiculous for a +5 lvl adj race. And these guys arent incoporeal, they have to have a strength score. Not having one means you cant physically manipulate anything or even hold your body up off the ground. A grain of sand landing on this guys head would floor him. I know youve gone and said they can carry stuff telekinetially, but that reads like they have to be actively aware of it. Anything you arent aware of wouldnt be affected and thus you get boned. That also doesnt mean doing something stupid like saying they get -10 to str.
RandomFellow 01-05-08, 08:48 PM	A little over the top. Especially with precise blow. It's your game, but you should never eliminate the Strength score. It's unbalanced if players use it as a dumpstat and replace it with Dexterity and Charisma. I guess we should drop Necropolitians since they can dump Constitution? That kind of logic needs to apply to /all/ similar cases without qualifiers. Precise blow is too powerful for it's own good, it shouldn't be rolled into a feat. As a class feature, it requires Elf or Half-Elf and two levels of Champion of Correllon Larethian. Precise Blow isn't overpowered on a race that's 'largest' weapon does like 1d4. 1d4+MaxedDex 2d6+MaxedStrength*1.5 Oh wait, it only works with light weapons. So thats a 1. Not even a 1d4. 1+MaxedDex vs. 2d6+MaxedStrength*1.5 0o I don't think this really requires further explanation. Yes, the little guy has a high to-hit modifier. However, he has no /hands/ to go the two-weapon fighting route so a well built non-Inaran fighter will out fight him. He also has no reach. 0'. Which means max ranks in tumble or he provokes AoO to enter someone's square. Maybe I'm just BSing, but I think you should just give them a strength score back. Then they wouldn't be 1' tall floating creature that does everything via mental powers except for talking, eating and breathing? I was also wondering how they create zombies with no abilities to do so. Never add PC classes to a monster race before? You only need a couple of 5th level clerics to manage animate dead. Yes, the 11 wis would hurt but PC classed monsters usually also have the Elite Array or at least something better than the basic 10*3, 11*3 array. Charm only works for influencing a creatures actions and doesn't let them do things that they beleive are morally wrong. Dominate or its psionic variant may be what you're looking for, but charm just makes people inclined to your suggestions, not enslaved to them. I never said Charm was used to enslave people. You can enslave people the mundane way 'y know? And when a small army of these guys just slaughtered half your village in six seconds with Energy Missiles do you think everyone would fight to the death? A slowing field of armor would provide a deflection bonus to AC, not Damage Reduction. That's a matter of opinion. I was trying to keep the crunch similar to Pixies in some places. (e.g. DR, Greater Invis Perma) I could do Cha to AC as a deflection bonus...but that would make them even harder to hit. A fighter with a decent strength score can pierce their DR on a non-1 roll. Sorry if I sounded brutal. It's just really over the top in melee and casting... I think you're very mistaken about alot of things. It's a powerful caster, but in melee it would get demolished by a Human Fighter.
RandomFellow 01-05-08, 08:50 PM	That epic cha and dex bonus is a bit ridiculous for a +5 lvl adj race. Ok. And these guys arent incoporeal, they have to have a strength score. Not having one means you cant physically manipulate anything or even hold your body up off the ground. Bingo. They use TK to hold things and keep themselves off the ground. That's it. A grain of sand landing on this guys head would floor him. I know youve gone and said they can carry stuff telekinetially, but that reads like they have to be actively aware of it. Anything you arent aware of wouldnt be affected and thus you get boned. That also doesnt mean doing something stupid like saying they get -10 to str. Ok. Does no one realize these guys actually have the lower total modifier adjustments (f you assume they dump Str) than Pixies?
Xiuhcoatl 01-05-08, 10:34 PM	They must have a strength score. Period. Otherwise, they are either objects or incorporeal. Even if it is a Str -14 adjustment, they need a strength score.
RandomFellow 01-05-08, 10:55 PM	They must have a strength score. Period. Otherwise, they are either objects or incorporeal. Even if it is a Str -14 adjustment, they need a strength score. Incorrect. Strength Any creature that can physically manipulate other objects has at least 1 point of Strength. A creature with no Strength score can’t exert force, usually because it has no physical body or because it doesn’t move. The creature automatically fails Strength checks. If the creature can attack, it applies its Dexterity modifier to its base attack bonus instead of a Strength modifier. Inaran Fae 1) Do not manipulate objects physically. 2) Do not exert force beyond their telekinetic abilities. 3) No strength check requirements are nesc. to stay alive. 4) Is ignored, since the Inaran Fae already have Weapon Finesse and wield light weapons only anyway. 5) The last bit covers the part about the thought of creatures existing without strength scores. Otherwise why mention it? Exactly.
Devigod 01-05-08, 11:00 PM	You have absolutely no idea how wrong you are. Greater invis+rogue+dex to hit and damage+1 level of monk+1 level of sorceror+Ascetic Sorcerer=Untouchable, Sneak Attacking Death. Ac spikes from 23 to 30 with two class levels with just the Sorcerer, Monk and feat. Do you wanna see how many 8th level fighters can hit 30+invisibility, which provides a miss %, and still pierce that DR? Their +13, (higher with the class levels), to hitting guarantees a scored hit on every attack, not to mention that they can hover in the air and just shoot their magic will missiles? As for damage, their max dex would be 9+1 A fighter would be 6+2d6, but they would NEVER get the opportunity to hit. Never. A +10 or +12 to any one stat is ridiculous. Do you have any idea how much this can be absolutely abused? Taking out strength and completely replacing it with one simple feat is way more beneficial than a penalty to it. Seriously. The at will abilities are acceptable, but not with the ludicrous Cha bonus. Seriously. I was only pointing out charm monster because I wasn't sure if that was their method of enslavement or if they should all have cleric as their favored class. It was just unclear on the whole undead thing. Umm... a 6th level fighter can never take an invisible, +13 to hit, DR 10 untyped monstrosity. Just add strength as a score. Zombies exist for a reason, strengthless telekinetics don't. When a non fighter has 23 AC, invisibility and an easy method to increase that AC, you have a problem on your hands. You have sorely underestimated what Dex to damage can do with some classes, doing this completely offsets any penalty a low or lack of strength could bring about. Earlier, I wasn't trying to be aggressive or brutal, but you just hit defensive and ignored my honest suggestions. A lack of Strength just doesn't make sense. I'm just telling you that you may want to reconsider your monster/PC race, not that you're unreasonable.
Xiuhcoatl 01-05-08, 11:04 PM	usually because it has no physical body or because it doesn’t move. So these overpowered fae cannot interact with the environment whatsoever. They cannot eat and/or cannot move. They would quickly starve to death without a Str score. Remember, without a Str score, they can't so much as chew or digest .... because they either lack a body or cannot move.
RandomFellow 01-05-08, 11:17 PM	[/b] So these overpowered fae cannot interact with the environment whatsoever. They cannot eat and/or cannot move. They would quickly starve to death without a Str score. Remember, without a Str score, they can't so much as chew or digest .... because they either lack a body or cannot move. Key word being 'usually'. 0o
Devigod 01-05-08, 11:26 PM	Where oh where does that say usually? Oh, never mind
Exposed_Wires 01-05-08, 11:46 PM	No strength score would imply that it's more like a floating doll. How does it blink or even redirect its eyes? Breathing requires strength. Your heart is a muscle. You're acting like a troll, but i know you're not because you clearly spent a lot of time on this. The usually in that sentense doesn't mean what you think it means. Your creation isn't being original or unique by not having a strength score. It's negating some rules. What you've done is made your character immune to strength damage. It can't be paralyzed or knocked unconcious with the ability damage. Even if you say that this thing is technically paralyzed, then it's because its strength score is zero, not because it doesn't have one. Otherwise its a possessed husk that can be dispelled or something. On a side note, huge LA makes for poor casters. They end up having spells 3 levels lower than their peers.
RandomFellow 01-05-08, 11:58 PM	You have absolutely no idea how wrong you are. Greater invis+rogue+dex to hit and damage+1 level of monk+1 level of sorceror+Ascetic Sorcerer=Untouchable, Sneak Attacking Death. Ac spikes from 23 to 30 with two class levels with just the Sorcerer, Monk and feat. Do you wanna see how many 8th level fighters can hit 30+invisibility, which provides a miss %, and still pierce that DR? Their +13, (higher with the class levels), to hitting guarantees a scored hit on every attack, not to mention that they can hover in the air and just shoot their magic will missiles? o0 You do realize that build is completely invalid correct? Ascetic requires 2nd level spells. Unless you were planning to trot out Precocious Apprentice. In which case...I could build a half-elven diplomancer capable of turning anyone into Friendly in 6 seconds. Drawing out the super cheese is silly. Even using incorrect your example of an 7th level char: Human Wizard 3 / Fighter 4 (wtf far from an optimized character) +5 BAB, +4 Strength Mod, +2 Strength Mod (from Buff), +1 Weapon Focus = +10 to hit. vs. AC 30 = 10% Chance to hit for 2d6+10 (Can't forget Weapon Spec) (which would one hit your character on an average roll = 17 damage. 12 damage would still drop you unless you got max on your HP roll and took 16 or 18 Con on your rolls/point buy) Using True Strike (and making the Conc check) results in you dying in the second round. Well done, you've (maybe) landed all of two attacks on a guy with 40+hp. You've gotten him to half health and died. Well done. Oh wait, that still leaves the 10% chance for you to die before you can even hit him unless you make your tumble DC to enter his square without AoO. The AC is nice, but you aren't going to be taking down someone as a melee character as an Inaran Fae. Not unless they have no support of any kind and are a non-caster, which would be an idiotic thing to send against an Inaran Fae as a DM. If you send things that are completely ineffective against your PCs, why bother? As for damage, their max dex would be 9+1 A fighter would be 6+2d6, but they would NEVER get the opportunity to hit. Never. See above. A +10 or +12 to any one stat is ridiculous. Do you have any idea how much this can be absolutely abused? Taking out strength and completely replacing it with one simple feat is way more beneficial than a penalty to it. Seriously. I never said it was less beneficial than a penalty to it. I said the total attribute mod is in the pixie's favor, even dumping strength. Perhaps +10 or +12 is ridiculous. Of course there are +3 and +4 races/templates that provide most of that. And I can come up with a few +5 LA combinations that can beat a +10 and a +12. And give better general bonuses. Lloth-Touched + Spellwarped + Mineral Warrior is the only one off the top of my head tho. The at will abilities are acceptable, but not with the ludicrous Cha bonus. Seriously. Tbh, I was thinking of reducing them to 2/day - each. I was only pointing out charm monster because I wasn't sure if that was their method of enslavement or if they should all have cleric as their favored class. It was just unclear on the whole undead thing. ...Ok. Umm... a 6th level fighter can never take an invisible, +13 to hit, DR 10 untyped monstrosity. Not without someone casting Glitterdust or giving him a way to see the invisible fellow. This is true. Just add strength as a score. Zombies exist for a reason, strengthless telekinetics don't. What real drawback does that represent if I gave it a flat strength score of 1 or a huge penalty? It never uses strength anyway. When a non fighter has 23 AC, invisibility and an easy method to increase that AC, you have a problem on your hands. You have sorely underestimated what Dex to damage can do with some classes, doing this completely offsets any penalty a low or lack of strength could bring about. Earlier, I wasn't trying to be aggressive or brutal, but you just hit defensive and ignored my honest suggestions. A lack of Strength just doesn't make sense. I'm just telling you that you may want to reconsider your monster/PC race, not that you're unreasonable. ...It may not make sense to you or most people but a virtually helpless floating body that relies on its mind for /everything/ makes sense to me.
RandomFellow 01-06-08, 12:10 AM	No strength score would imply that it's more like a floating doll. How does it blink or even redirect its eyes? Breathing requires strength. Your heart is a muscle. I'll add text where it keeps its body functioning via TK for those basic tasks since it seems to be such a stopping point. You're acting like a troll, but i know you're not because you clearly spent a lot of time on this. Not really. I throw ideas together on rides on the subway or what not. I'd just read a book or something else equally unproductive anyway. o0 Call me a troll if thats what you think I don't mind. The usually in that sentense doesn't mean what you think it means. Your creation isn't being original or unique by not having a strength score. It's negating some rules. What you've done is made your character immune to strength damage. It can't be paralyzed or knocked unconcious with the ability damage. Even if you say that this thing is technically paralyzed, then it's because its strength score is zero, not because it doesn't have one. Otherwise its a possessed husk that can be dispelled or something. When has strength damage been the most efficient way to kill something that has 5HD less than everything else and a crap fort save? On a side note, huge LA makes for poor casters. They end up having spells 3 levels lower than their peers. Yes. Which is precisely why I didn't worry about the DC increase for a Charisma Base caster. Yes the DC is 6 higher, but spells 3 levels higher are a helluva alot more powerful.
Exposed_Wires 01-06-08, 01:08 AM	Okay, forget everything else. How can somebody using mind powers to simply control their bowel movements have a dexterity score. It's a physical stat. What about constitution? Can it catch diseases? How is this even remotely fun to play with? I'm not going to argue balance anymore but I want you to tell me how I can have a fun time with this creature. Seems to me that it will wtf pwn anything that didn't know weeks in advance that it was coming, and if you were able to prepare for him, an acid fog or cloudkill spell will drop him. (even then, only if you managed to glitterdust the whole freakin place and cast before he did.) Or you could just dispell psionics on the whole village and hope the thing doesn't notice. (assuming these telekinetic powers are psionic in nature, it should die.) Either way, it seems more like rock paper scissors than D&D. If I'm not seeing your vision, please help me out.
RandomFellow 01-06-08, 11:29 AM	Okay, forget everything else. How can somebody using mind powers to simply control their bowel movements have a dexterity score. It's a physical stat. What about constitution? Can it catch diseases? Dexterity effectively becomes another 'mental' stat since it is representative about how flexibly it can do things with TK (e.g. move it self, move weapons) and reaction time. It can catch disease just like anyone else...being a telepath doesn't let you have microscopic senses capable of filtering things out 0o. Its alot like having all of your body's functions run by a machine. Ya, it keeps things running but it doesn't really give you any special advantages unless the machine does more than simply pump your blood or pump air into your lungs because you can't breathe. Constitution normally represents physical endurance (e.g. how much damage you can take) all this takes is converting it over to mental endurance as fluff. How is this even remotely fun to play with? How is it any less fun than pixies? I'm not going to argue balance anymore but I want you to tell me how I can have a fun time with this creature. Seems to me that it will wtf pwn anything that didn't know weeks in advance that it was coming, and if you were able to prepare for him, an acid fog or cloudkill spell will drop him. (even then, only if you managed to glitterdust the whole freakin place and cast before he did.) Or you could just dispell psionics on the whole village and hope the thing doesn't notice. (assuming these telekinetic powers are psionic in nature, it should die.) The same is true of regular Pixies. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie Is no one realizing their is a +4 LA with much of the same abilities just divvied up differently? 0o (e.g. more SLAs most of which are weaker, more stat bonuses most of which are weaker but in total with point buy are roughly the same overall advantage, DR 10/cold iron, the spell resistance, the greater invisibility) Either way, it seems more like rock paper scissors than D&D. If I'm not seeing your vision, please help me out. Maybe I should just rebuild it as a psionic version of Pixies. Apparently going in an abnormal direction is too 'weird' for people to grasp without me writing a new ruleset.
Exposed_Wires 01-06-08, 01:28 PM	Pixies are tricksters. None of their abilities make for very dangerous characters and they're neutral good. Their arrows do nothing but waste your time. They maybe be able to deal damage while you're knocked out, but neutral good creatures don't do that, not unless you've done something terrible. Yours is a combatant. Spell like abilities that deal the damage equal to a great axe, mindsense?, and it's stats are double that of a pixie (i noticed you dropped the wisdom bonus, but that stat is effectively inconsequencial in any build involving a pixie and is there for flavor so removing it doesnt mean anything). Oh yah, usually evil. This thing is a terror and it's definitely worth more than a +5 LA. Level adjustment +4 (+6 if the pixie can use irresistible dance). See how big of a difference one spell-like ability makes? All the crazy stuff you added is certainly worth more than a that. What I'm getting at is that all you took away from the original pixie is the playful and fun aspects of it and added easily abusable abilities and a dark-for-the-sake-of-being-dark tone. And let us get this straight. I'm not bashing this thing because it's different. I'm not scared of new and strange things. This is D&D. It's a game. I'll admit your idea is interesting, but it belongs in a book. Not at the table.
RandomFellow 01-06-08, 01:59 PM	Pixies are tricksters. None of their abilities make for very dangerous characters and they're neutral good. Their arrows do nothing but waste your time. They maybe be able to deal damage while you're knocked out, but neutral good creatures don't do that, not unless you've done something terrible. Yours is a combatant. Spell like abilities that deal the damage equal to a great axe, mindsense?, and it's stats are double that of a pixie (i noticed you dropped the wisdom bonus, but that stat is effectively inconsequencial in any build involving a pixie and is there for flavor so removing it doesnt mean anything). Oh yah, usually evil. This thing is a terror and it's definitely worth more than a +5 LA. See how big of a difference one spell-like ability makes? All the crazy stuff you added is certainly worth more than a that. What I'm getting at is that all you took away from the original pixie is the playful and fun aspects of it and added easily abusable abilities and a dark-for-the-sake-of-being-dark tone. And let us get this straight. I'm not bashing this thing because it's different. I'm not scared of new and strange things. This is D&D. It's a game. I'll admit your idea is interesting, but it belongs in a book. Not at the table. I did more than drop the wisdom bonus but whatever. 0o
DebiHuman 01-06-08, 03:42 PM	[QUOTE=RandomFellow;14748533]Inaran Fae Grapple is -16 not 0. If you prefer you could state that they cannot grapple. It should only have 1 feat not 3. It doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse (Weapon Finesse requires BAB of +1). Telekinesis normally cannot be used to wield weapons. However, since the Master of the Unseen Hand from Complete Warrior can do this, it's not beyone the scope of this creature. However, it does need another special ability to do this [See Telekinetic Weilder]. A Str of - is effectively a Str of 0. A creature with a Str of 0 is helpless, not dead. Constructs never were alive so they have a Con of - not a Con of 0, which would indicate that they are dead. Mindless creatures have an Int of - because they never had any intelligence to lose. From the SRD: *Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground. *Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. *Constitution 0 means that the character is dead. *Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless. *Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless. Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless. A tiny creature can only wield tiny weapons without penalty. Using a medium sized weapon (even with telekinesis) still incurs a penalty. I believe your stats on the weapon are incorrect. Debby
RandomFellow 01-06-08, 08:34 PM	[QUOTE=RandomFellow;14748533]Inaran Fae Grapple is -16 not 0. If you prefer you could state that they cannot grapple. It should only have 1 feat not 3. It doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse (Weapon Finesse requires BAB of +1). Telekinesis normally cannot be used to wield weapons. However, since the Master of the Unseen Hand from Complete Warrior can do this, it's not beyone the scope of this creature. However, it does need another special ability to do this [See Telekinetic Weilder]. A Str of - is effectively a Str of 0. A creature with a Str of 0 is helpless, not dead. Constructs never were alive so they have a Con of - not a Con of 0, which would indicate that they are dead. Mindless creatures have an Int of - because they never had any intelligence to lose. From the SRD: *Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground. *Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. *Constitution 0 means that the character is dead. *Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless. *Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless. Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless. A tiny creature can only wield tiny weapons without penalty. Using a medium sized weapon (even with telekinesis) still incurs a penalty. I believe your stats on the weapon are incorrect. Debby Thanks for your input, not all of it is accurate. But it doesn't matter as I'm probably not developing this creature in its current incarnation based on the sheer volume of negative feedback (even if quite a bit of it is flat out wrong). For Instance: It is a fine creature. With a weapon die of 1 for its weapon. A medium weapon isn't noted anywhere neither is a tiny creature Pixies have Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat without a BAB of +1. Racial bonus feats don't require meeting of Prereq's.
Xiuhcoatl 01-06-08, 08:53 PM	Note that the majority of the negative feedback has been on your (wrong) assertion that it is within the game's rules for this race to have a null Str (Str -). This race has a strength of 1. One is mechanically the lowest a living, corporeal, creature can have. Str -- means it is either it is an object, and thus cannot interact with its environment in a physical way ... or it is incorporeal, and thus cannot interact with its environment in a physical way. What you appear to have done is to make a living ghost--that's the effect it currently has--without the benefit of being incorporeal. Give it a Strength score of 1, and most people will calm down.
BlessedOneOfNual 01-06-08, 09:22 PM	delete
RandomFellow 01-06-08, 11:05 PM	Note that the majority of the negative feedback has been on your (wrong) assertion that it is within the game's rules for this race to have a null Str (Str -). This race has a strength of 1. One is mechanically the lowest a living, corporeal, creature can have. Str -- means it is either it is an object, and thus cannot interact with its environment in a physical way ... or it is incorporeal, and thus cannot interact with its environment in a physical way. What you appear to have done is to make a living ghost--that's the effect it currently has--without the benefit of being incorporeal. Give it a Strength score of 1, and most people will calm down. Which makes it coupe de gracable after 1 ray of enfeeblement 0o And it loses flight so its on the ground. RAW 0o
Xiuhcoatl 01-07-08, 09:57 AM	Which makes it coupe de gracable after 1 ray of enfeeblement 0o And it loses flight so its on the ground. RAW 0o Wait. What? How would being reduced to Str 0 be any different than having Str 1 for these creatures? You do realize that as it has Str --, it either is already coup-de-graceable or its incorporeal, right? Again, I must restate the point: In order to be consistent with the d20 rules, it must have at minimum a Str of 1 if it is a) corporeal or b) able to move in any remote way. So far, you have argued that it does not need a Str score, because it takes every action with its mind -- including digestion, heart rhythms, and bowel movements. Why, then, does it have a dexterity score?
RandomFellow 01-07-08, 10:33 AM	Wait. What? How would being reduced to Str 0 be any different than having Str 1 for these creatures? You do realize that as it has Str --, it either is already coup-de-graceable or its incorporeal, right? Again, I must restate the point: In order to be consistent with the d20 rules, it must have at minimum a Str of 1 if it is a) corporeal or b) able to move in any remote way. So far, you have argued that it does not need a Str score, because it takes every action with its mind -- including digestion, heart rhythms, and bowel movements. Why, then, does it have a dexterity score? Dexterity effectively becomes another 'mental' stat since it is representative about how flexibly it can do things with TK (e.g. move it self, move weapons) and reaction time. It can catch disease just like anyone else...being a telepath doesn't let you have microscopic senses capable of filtering things out 0o. Its alot like having all of your body's functions run by a machine. Ya, it keeps things running but it doesn't really give you any special advantages unless the machine does more than simply pump your blood or pump air into your lungs because you can't breathe. 0o
Xiuhcoatl 01-07-08, 10:51 AM	Yeah. Whatever "0o" is ... it's not constructive to the conversation. You seem to fail to understand what a "Strength" score is. Having a strength score means you have a physical body. If you lack a strength score, either you have no body (are incorporeal) or no part of your body moves. If your character has a heart beat, then it has a strength score. If your character can blink his eyes, then he has a strength score. As these fae lack a strength score, by the RAW, they are either objects ... or they are incorporeal. As the flavor text shows that they are neither, they must--by the RAW--have a Strength score ... even if it is Str 1. But seeing as you refuse to budge, refuse to acknowledge our arguments, and respond with a nonsensical zero and 'o' combination, I will assume you are a troll. And I will no longer take your bait.
RandomFellow 01-07-08, 03:11 PM	Yeah. Whatever "0o" is ... it's not constructive to the conversation. You seem to fail to understand what a "Strength" score is. Having a strength score means you have a physical body. If you lack a strength score, either you have no body (are incorporeal) or no part of your body moves. If your character has a heart beat, then it has a strength score. If your character can blink his eyes, then he has a strength score. As these fae lack a strength score, by the RAW, they are either objects ... or they are incorporeal. As the flavor text shows that they are neither, they must--by the RAW--have a Strength score ... even if it is Str 1. But seeing as you refuse to budge, refuse to acknowledge our arguments, and respond with a nonsensical zero and 'o' combination, I will assume you are a troll. And I will no longer take your bait. I was answering your question...but whatever.
key 01-07-08, 04:50 PM	At 5 pounds, they're pretty heavy for a fine-sized race (SRD table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm)). By comparsion, my favorite fine-sized race, the shimmerling, weighs only 1 ounce.
RandomFellow 01-07-08, 05:20 PM	At 5 pounds, they're pretty heavy for a fine-sized race (SRD table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm)). By comparsion, my favorite fine-sized race, the shimmerling, weighs only 1 ounce. Oops. I don't know what I was thinking when I came up with that weight. Edit: I've revised it.
war_thog 01-07-08, 06:41 PM	Actually this reminds me of the Slaan in Warhammer. Seems like youve tried to recreate them in DnD as pixies. However youve taken all the disadvantages of having a useless body and glossed over them with mental telekinesis. From what I can tell of your intent regarding more recent posts, these guys cant move at all. That does qualify for many peoples arguments regarding a str of --. Incorporeal or unable to move. Why do they need weapon finesse though? Creatures w/o a str score use their dex to atk as previously mentioned. Stacking on an unnecessary feat to do what you already have. Be like giving a Goliath monkey grip. Also they never suffer AoO's for entering an opponents square anyway as they are invisible so thats never a problem until the invis gets removed, which is hard to do unless you're geared to do it. A mage in our party has designed himself to be able to specifically do this with permanent detection magic + glitterdusting. This however I do not consider the "norm" However it is not beyong the scope of people to defeat invis at medium to high levels. Regarding your previous build to prove that you can own the fey..... How does the fighter even know where you are? Youre a flying invisible high ac creature. The wizard/fighter will have to hit with glitterdust which hell have a max of like 1 unless hes gone and used all his slots on it. Otherwise he has to a) pick your square, very hard to do vs mobile flying invisible opponents b) bypass a 50% miss c) hit 10% w/o TS or 95% with. So if we use all our lvl 1 slots on TS we get 6 or so uses of it. Thats at best a 47.5% chance to hit if we get the right square every time. Or a 5% chance w/o TS and still guessing the right square. The pixie would last much longer than just 2 rounds. Very simple really. Move up to him. Hit, move away. He wont know youre there till you hit him and then youive moved off so he cant retaliate. Rinse and repeat. Why can he get so close w/o being spotted? a) invisible b) a side effect of having no str score and not actually moving is that you make no sound when you do somehow get around. Youd make as much sound as a thrown rock as you moved through the air. Unless for some reason your TK flight does make sound? So yes, I do think its accuarte to say that a lvl 7 character will NEVER hit this guy, unless he somehow manages to break his invis, which will be very hard. Youd either a) have to just be a lucky guess or b) spend time getting some detection up and so on, in which time the fey can just run off or disrupt you or some such.
RandomFellow 01-07-08, 07:33 PM	Actually this reminds me of the Slaan in Warhammer. Seems like youve tried to recreate them in DnD as pixies. However youve taken all the disadvantages of having a useless body and glossed over them with mental telekinesis. From what I can tell of your intent regarding more recent posts, these guys cant move at all. That does qualify for many peoples arguments regarding a str of --. Incorporeal or unable to move. Why do they need weapon finesse though? Creatures w/o a str score use their dex to atk as previously mentioned. Stacking on an unnecessary feat to do what you already have. Be like giving a Goliath monkey grip. Also they never suffer AoO's for entering an opponents square anyway as they are invisible so thats never a problem until the invis gets removed, which is hard to do unless you're geared to do it. A mage in our party has designed himself to be able to specifically do this with permanent detection magic + glitterdusting. This however I do not consider the "norm" However it is not beyong the scope of people to defeat invis at medium to high levels. Regarding your previous build to prove that you can own the fey..... How does the fighter even know where you are? Youre a flying invisible high ac creature. The wizard/fighter will have to hit with glitterdust which hell have a max of like 1 unless hes gone and used all his slots on it. Otherwise he has to a) pick your square, very hard to do vs mobile flying invisible opponents b) bypass a 50% miss c) hit 10% w/o TS or 95% with. So if we use all our lvl 1 slots on TS we get 6 or so uses of it. Thats at best a 47.5% chance to hit if we get the right square every time. Or a 5% chance w/o TS and still guessing the right square. The pixie would last much longer than just 2 rounds. Very simple really. Move up to him. Hit, move away. He wont know youre there till you hit him and then youive moved off so he cant retaliate. Rinse and repeat. Why can he get so close w/o being spotted? a) invisible b) a side effect of having no str score and not actually moving is that you make no sound when you do somehow get around. Youd make as much sound as a thrown rock as you moved through the air. Unless for some reason your TK flight does make sound? So yes, I do think its accuarte to say that a lvl 7 character will NEVER hit this guy, unless he somehow manages to break his invis, which will be very hard. Youd either a) have to just be a lucky guess or b) spend time getting some detection up and so on, in which time the fey can just run off or disrupt you or some such. You apparently did not read the revised version at all. Nor the fact the guy was creating a MELEE build for this creature. Which means it has to get w/i 60' which makes it vulnerable to See Invisibility. Stepping into that square results in AoO which would make your situation worse. Or realize that the build he made was completely invalid, due to not meeting multiple requirements, as written. This is why I come off as a troll. Over half the people posting in this thread have no ****ing idea what they are even talking about or don't bother to read. Although I do realize I don't think I mentioned the fighter thing having see invisibility. 0o But ya, thats the spell to be cast beforehand.
Devigod 01-07-08, 07:45 PM	Seriously, you're completely right and everybody else just has to be wrong! We're all so naive and need to be corrected with every wrong accusation. I'm also colored red! Heh, dude, wtf is 0o supposed to mean anyway? Is it your catchphrase or something?
RandomFellow 01-07-08, 07:47 PM	Seriously, you're completely right and everybody else just has to be wrong! We're all so naive and need to be corrected with every wrong accusation. I'm also colored red! Heh, dude, wtf is 0o supposed to mean anyway? Is it you catchphrase? I'm not completely right and everyone else is wrong. It is the fact that people give 'advice' when they don't even know basic things like Ascentic Sorcerer requiring 2nd level spells. Or do basic common sense things like read the ****ing original post.
Exposed_Wires 01-08-08, 03:55 AM	I'm not completely right and everyone else is wrong. It is the fact that people give 'advice' when they don't even know basic things like Ascentic Sorcerer requiring 2nd level spells. Or do basic common sense things like read the ****ing original post. First of all, having read your original post doesn't mean anything because it was full of mistakes. You shouldn't say we don't know the basics when you didn't know that living creatures need a strength score. Actually on that note, how could you decide that your TK could have a dexterity score but not a strength? even if it's body is really only an inanimate object your brain powers should be quantified by how much you can lift with it. How could you have overlooked that detail? Please don't insult us for giving you honest feedback. This didn't get ugly until you started talking down to us like we had absolutely no idea what we were talking about.
RandomFellow 01-08-08, 12:00 PM	First of all, having read your original post doesn't mean anything because it was full of mistakes. The only two actual mistakes were forgetting to put in the grapple and the right weight. 0o The latter is virtually meaningless and the former was an omission. Or are you counting the Weapon Finesse/Dex thing like the person that other person that doesn't even realize almost everything he said is no longer applicable? Being able to replace the same score twice is not the same as doubling it. That is like saying you trade $10 for 2 $5s and then 10 $1s and expect to have more money when your done. Substitution never works that way. With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. You shouldn't say we don't know the basics when you didn't know that living creatures need a strength score. No where does it explicitly state that. A strength score of 0 = helpless. A strength score of null much like a constitution score of null, negates anything related to that score and is treated as +0 for purposes of calculation only. Actually on that note, how could you decide that your TK could have a dexterity score but not a strength? ...I could just say 'because I can'. I won't tho. The reason is simple enough: I'd have to re-write alot of mechanics to make it work and if I went down that road it would only have 3 mental stats. even if it's body is really only an inanimate object your brain powers should be quantified by how much you can lift with it. How could you have overlooked that detail? I didn't. If you had read the OP completely which you didn't. Any version of it. Both had Charisma as the 'score' to define lifting of objects. The ability to lift things was directly related to it. You just saw the null strength score, the other ability adjustments, and a couple other things focused on them ignoring virtually everything else. Please don't insult us for giving you honest feedback. This didn't get ugly until you started talking down to us like we had absolutely no idea what we were talking about. I insult people for being so inept as to not even read the original post or to know the rules they are using as the basis of their argument. I occasionally omit things by way oversight, I don't post things that don't work as written when giving 'feedback' to someone. And if I do I apologize for my error. This is the only thread I've ever felt the need to verbally smack you people for being so arrogant as to give feedback without a clue about what the **** you are talking about and/or what the entire OP is. And not even care.
DebiHuman 01-08-08, 12:19 PM	[QUOTE=DebiHuman;14757553] Thanks for your input, not all of it is accurate. But it doesn't matter as I'm probably not developing this creature in its current incarnation based on the sheer volume of negative feedback (even if quite a bit of it is flat out wrong). For Instance: It is a fine creature. With a weapon die of 1 for its weapon. A medium weapon isn't noted anywhere neither is a tiny creature Pixies have Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat without a BAB of +1. Racial bonus feats don't require meeting of Prereq's. You are quite welcome. You are correct, it is a fine creature and racial bonuses don't need to meet any prerequisites for feats. However, the die isn't a 1, it merely does one hit point of damage. Dice and hit points are not interchangable. Also, if you are going to give out bonus feats, then you should note that the feat is a bonus feat by noting it thusly: (B) in the stat block. I hadn't noticed in the stat block where you noted this though it may have been noted later. The negative feedback occurs because while you are quite talented, it appears that the creature you've created isn't really useful to many of the posters here. I thought it was quite innovative actually. Frankly, I think you are letting all the negative feedback dissuade you from fleshing out a really neat creature. Debby
ORC_Sinister 01-08-08, 12:20 PM	Please stop insulting one another and return to the topic. If you can't control yourselves the thread will have to be closed.
DebiHuman 01-08-08, 01:41 PM	Thanks for your input, not all of it is accurate. But it doesn't matter as I'm probably not developing this creature in its current incarnation based on the sheer volume of negative feedback (even if quite a bit of it is flat out wrong). For Instance: It is a fine creature. With a weapon die of 1 for its weapon. A medium weapon isn't noted anywhere neither is a tiny creature Pixies have Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat without a BAB of +1. Racial bonus feats don't require meeting of Prereq's. You are welcome. I stand corrected, they are indeed Fine creatures. However, you cannot have a weapon die of 1 without letting us know which die type you are using. It is unclear whether you mean 1d2, 1d4 or whatever. A 1 without a die modifier makes no sense. It looked like you meant that it only ever did 1 point of damage and that's not the same thing at all. Your attack lines are unclear. If you did mean that it does 1 point of damage then you need to spell it out. Furthermore, since this is a fine creature who can wield much larger weapons, you should identify the size of the weapon. See the entry on Storm Giants for an example. Last of all, pixies no longer have Weapons Finesse as a bonus feat as they do not meet the BAB +1 requirement. This was fixed in the official errata. They now have the Alertness feat. You can find the Official Errata here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a You can still give out bonus feats but you really need to show that they are bonus feats by indicating them with a (B) on the stat block. 3 feats for a 1 HD creature is a bit excessive but not unheard of. Debby
RandomFellow 01-08-08, 02:14 PM	You are quite welcome. You are correct, it is a fine creature and racial bonuses don't need to meet any prerequisites for feats. However, the die isn't a 1, it merely does one hit point of damage. Dice and hit points are not interchangeable. My mistake. Also, if you are going to give out bonus feats, then you should note that the feat is a bonus feat by noting it thusly: (B) in the stat block. I hadn't noticed in the stat block where you noted this though it may have been noted later. I'll fix that in a sec, I never was any good at formatting. The negative feedback occurs because while you are quite talented, it appears that the creature you've created isn't really useful to many of the posters here. I thought it was quite innovative actually. Frankly, I think you are letting all the negative feedback dissuade you from fleshing out a really neat creature. Debby Thanks. Edit: Revised OP again.