Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hangman1 06-29-07, 11:37 AM	Do any of your half-fiends/planetouched/hellboound/warforged/shadowtouched/halfdragon/vampire characters run into problems buying things in stores? I am curious about how people role-play characters like this, and how DM's deal with it. We don't allow anything large or that isn't humanoid. Do DM's allow these type of characters (even ogres) to walk into a town and buy a drink? How do you justify it, especially in a somewhat traditional setting? Do we all treat our campaigns like they're the Discworld, or do we try to justify the social setting? Does prejudice come into it? Supposedly half-orcs are ostracized, shouldn't half dragons have a problem? Just bored and curious, how do people deal with this issue?
Kursk 06-29-07, 11:46 AM	Since my wold is semi-medieval, I treat it as such. It's not modern day Amsterdam. Monsters generally kill demi-humans and are evil. So, if you play a mindflayer you had better be disguised when you enter a civilized area... Some areas have prejudices against certain PC races but not to the point of official policy to harm them.
Dnarris 06-29-07, 11:48 AM	My Half-Ogre Frenzied Berserker has to stay outside city limits when the party goes into towns. It's not because I'll go crazy...since I took one level of Thrall Knight of Thay and my friend is a Red Wizard of Thay, but it's because that I'm a Half Ogre and people tend to not like my presence. Of course the fact that I have the mark of Thay isn't any better ^_^.
Salla 06-29-07, 12:08 PM	I run rather enlightened settings. The majority of the people in the world acknowledge that there's a lot of weird crap out there, and not all of it wants to eat you. There will be the occassional bigot, but that's an individual personality flaw, not the cultural standard. While people may look at you funny for being your weird self, until you actually act in an inappropriate manner, people will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Yanagita Kunio 06-29-07, 12:21 PM	Whoops, apparently hit the submit button preemptively.
hangman1 06-29-07, 12:33 PM	My Half-Ogre Frenzied Berserker has to stay outside city limits when the party goes into towns. That is the kind of thing I am talking about. Doesn't it severly limit the adventure possibilities? You can't really take part in city adventures or any kind of political intrigue. That may not be part of your game, but it seems like it would be an unwelcome limitation.
Kursk 06-29-07, 12:35 PM	That is the kind of thing I am talking about. Doesn't it severly limit the adventure possibilities? You can't really take part in city adventures or any kind of political intrigue. That may not be part of your game, but it seems like it would be an unwelcome limitation. The price you pay for playing s/g that most people fear. (if the campaign world is a classic one)
Dnarris 06-29-07, 12:38 PM	The DM actually put it to use. I was involved in a rather large conflict with a patrol of guards returning back to the city while the other characters were in the city. I happen to have on my person an item of great importance on my person unknownest to me. However, the party wizard knows the importance of the item and has kept it to himself. However, with the nature of the item and the nature of the person who is tormenting my captures half-ogre the item falling into the hands of my tormentor is for some reason a really bad idea. So, the party has come to rescuse me and I've broken free into some underground labyrinth under the city. It's actually turning out to be quite interesting. I suppose the intolerance is really what you make of it or the DM makes of it.
JakeTheSnake 06-29-07, 12:50 PM	my half-orc vampire barbarian/warrior of darkness used to have problems walking into most good aligned towns, but at this point he has built up such a reputation that most people do not try to agrue with him. Before he was so powerful, yes, he either had to wait outside the towns and cities or he had to wear robes and masks to disguise himself, and even then he ran into problems
penchant 06-29-07, 01:06 PM	There are usually two different factors in monstrous characters. 1> a societies prejudices against that particular race. 2> their ability to do anything about it. If you are in a town where you are among the higher level people (and are known to be such) the town may feel that it can't really do anything about your presence. They let you shop and hope you leave town quickly. I'm playing a Half Orc Monk in a small hamlet. When I was 1st level, I was reduced to begging in the streets for a meal since nobody would sell to me. When I got a reputation for being the strongest being around (20 Str) and killer of goblins by the dozens (3rd level now) they treat me just fine. I get to the head of the line in stores, my food is brought to my room at the inn (instead of served in the main room like everyone else) and people get out of the way when I walk down the street. The guards even call me "sir" you know... like "When do you think you might be moving on, sir?" and "Is there anything we can get you to help you on your way, sir?" Real nice folk, they are. I hear there's a knight coming to visit town soon. I wonder if he'll be nice?
Jaxgaret 06-29-07, 01:28 PM	In a nutshell: it all depends on your campaign, and possibly within subdivisions of your campaign. This is where DM/Player discussions come into play; decide how such interactions are going to be dealt with IG, and go with it. Just make sure there is communication on all sides, and things should go a lot more smoothly.
darkdragonk 06-29-07, 02:08 PM	Being a monsterous being really isnt a problem because most monsterous playable races have decent LAs and Racial Hit dice. At that point magic disguise realy is'nt a huge problem. Plus in most towns the highest level NPC is like 3ish what can they do:P
Kursk 06-29-07, 02:23 PM	Plus in most towns the highest level NPC is like 3ish what can they do:P If PCs of greater than 3rd level can be in "most towns" so can NPCs... :evillaugh
AaronDireBear 06-29-07, 03:18 PM	Do any of your half-fiends/planetouched/hellboound/warforged/shadowtouched/halfdragon/vampire characters run into problems buying things in stores? I am curious about how people role-play characters like this, and how DM's deal with it. We don't allow anything large or that isn't humanoid. Do DM's allow these type of characters (even ogres) to walk into a town and buy a drink? How do you justify it, especially in a somewhat traditional setting? Do we all treat our campaigns like they're the Discworld, or do we try to justify the social setting? Does prejudice come into it? Supposedly half-orcs are ostracized, shouldn't half dragons have a problem? Just bored and curious, how do people deal with this issue? This isnt eberron...Demons, Devils and such will not just be able to waltz into a store and slam down change for a pack of bubblegum.
AaronDireBear 06-29-07, 03:21 PM	Do any of your half-fiends/planetouched/hellboound/warforged/shadowtouched/halfdragon/vampire characters run into problems buying things in stores? I am curious about how people role-play characters like this, and how DM's deal with it. We don't allow anything large or that isn't humanoid. Do DM's allow these type of characters (even ogres) to walk into a town and buy a drink? How do you justify it, especially in a somewhat traditional setting? Do we all treat our campaigns like they're the Discworld, or do we try to justify the social setting? Does prejudice come into it? Supposedly half-orcs are ostracized, shouldn't half dragons have a problem? Just bored and curious, how do people deal with this issue? This isnt eberron...Demons, Devils and such will not just be able to waltz into a store and slam down change for a pack of bubblegum. As for half dragons, it depends on what the other half is and what TYPE of dragon he is half of. Vampires? Theyre undead! They kill people! Half Fiends tend towards evil alignment anyhow. Wait, how did they GET to the shop in the first place? Shouldnt the guards have stopped them? Of course, I as a DM would still allow a diplomacy check. I wont autofail them like a certain OTHER DM I played under (grumble...my Githzerai Exalted monk had a 22 god damn charisma and he wouldnt let me roll diplomacy due to me being a weird freaky alien thing....but I was a SEXY weird alien thing!)
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-29-07, 03:25 PM	Intolerance can be a problem and should be. It's really boring playing in the happy world of Toodlesnooks where everyone likes and accepts absolutely everyone. Even nice scary monsters should be treated as scary monsters. If some apparent regular Joe walks up and treats them as ordinary people, you know that this is either A. someone very powerful, B. another monster doing a better job of passing in common society than you are, or C. an average Joe who bought Iron Will as their 1st level Commoner feat and is completely unimpressed with vampires, werewolves, ogres and talking bunnyrabbits. Once you get celebrity status, your personal reputation can overshadow your race, but that still isn't going to work in places where no one knows or cares.
Jaxgaret 06-29-07, 03:27 PM	This isnt eberron...Demons, Devils and such will not just be able to waltz into a store and slam down change for a pack of bubblegum. What exactly isn't Eberron? It all depends on the specific campaign one plays in. There is no general campaign setting. There are only specific published campaign settings and specific homebrewed campaign settings.
TheDarkPrince 06-29-07, 03:51 PM	My half-fiend character has to desguise himself in order to go into most towns. But in bigger cities I can go to slums areas and most people just have too many of their own problems to care about my character. I highly suggest disguises. It can be fun to try and trick local authorities, and if some random NPC wizard uses True Sight, its all the more fun having your character either fight its way through the town, or try and make up an excuse as to why he/she was disguised in the first place. Cheers! :D
Kursk 06-29-07, 04:06 PM	There is no general campaign setting. Yes there is. If you read the PHB; the rules, names of gods, spells, etc., are from the GH campaign world.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-29-07, 04:23 PM	Yes there is. If you read the PHB; the rules, names of gods, spells, etc., are from the GH campaign world. True enough, but even GH is deliberately vague about the way it's to be played. Rather few of the sociable NPCs are shown to be anything more exotic than a half-orc, and there's supposedly still prejudice to those, so you'd expect half-dragons and half-vampires are even less well regarded, and trying to get the average villager to understand the difference between a hellbound and a tiefling? Why should they know or care? Why should anyone?
Kursk 06-29-07, 04:30 PM	True enough, but even GH is deliberately vague about the way it's to be played. Rather few of the sociable NPCs are shown to be anything more exotic than a half-orc, and there's supposedly still prejudice to those, so you'd expect half-dragons and half-vampires are even less well regarded, and trying to get the average villager to understand the difference between a hellbound and a tiefling? Why should they know or care? Why should anyone? My point exactly. GH is the archetype D&D world. The points you make are correct and could be considered "default settings" for a D&D setting.
Paladin_Hiroshi 06-29-07, 04:35 PM	I've been having a weird problem.... My character, a tiefling neutral good paladin (long story, he is evil, but he uses his paladin training to keep it under control, locked inside himself. The paladin itself isn't changed, because there seems to be more emphasis on GOOD than LAW in the PHB paladin description) He is actually liked more in Villages than he is in big towns! In villages, the people judge him for his deeds, not his appearance, as they're used to dealing with half-orcs, witches, etc. In cities my character was ATTACKED by a temple of Heironimous! I show up as a minor evil on detect spells, even though the evil is repressed. I guess the residual horns and cat eyes was enough, eh? We did beat them though, and got into a great RP with the head of the temple, about why 2 clerics and a paladin were protecting scum like me ;) Anyone else got any good stories?
AMGriffin 06-29-07, 04:51 PM	Depends on where and what said creature is. Just for example, I'm quite certain that dwarves really wouldn't give much of a damn if there was a half-elf wandering around their cities, but if that half-elf was among elves or humans, he/she'd probably not feel as welcome...depending on how the culture reacts to them. Half-elves for example, are often NOT the result of violence or other such morbid acts, they are children of romance or maybe even arranged marriages. They're not going to raise as many eyebrows as say half-orcs, who are usually bastard children... but half-orcs are supposedly commonplace enough that the only prejudice they really face is a couple disapproving stares or the occaisional slur about them or their mother. Half-ogres would probably scare most normal people, and they could actually have trouble accessing certain areas of town...though if they've got a paladin or cleric of a benevolent god in their party to vouch for them, there's no reason why they wouldn't be allowed in the city. I saw half-vampires mentioned...they probably could pass as the race of their living parent, as long as they keep people from seeing their fangs :). THe freakier ones like half-dragon, half-fiend, half-celestial...they're so rare and varying in appearence there's no such distinction for how people would react to them.
Jaxgaret 06-29-07, 05:56 PM	Yes there is. If you read the PHB; the rules, names of gods, spells, etc., are from the GH campaign world. My point exactly. GH is the archetype D&D world. The points you make are correct and could be considered "default settings" for a D&D setting. GH is a campaign setting, like it or not. It is the most common one, but that does not make it the "default settings" for D&D. Core is the "default settings" for D&D. Show me where in the PHB/DMG/MM it states that NPCs should be deathly afraid of/intolerant of 'monstrous' characters.
Kursk 06-29-07, 06:26 PM	GH is a campaign setting, like it or not. It is the most common one, but that does not make it the "default settings" for D&D. Core is the "default settings" for D&D. Show me where in the PHB/DMG/MM it states that NPCs should be deathly afraid of/intolerant of 'monstrous' characters. Checks his CORE PHB... Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, who the heck is Mordenkainen? Vecna, a god? Who is that? Oh! I see. They are from the GH campaign. As part of the CORE rules? No way! :rolleyes:
Salla 06-29-07, 07:33 PM	Checks his CORE PHB... Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, who the heck is Mordenkainen? Vecna, a god? Who is that? Oh! I see. They are from the GH campaign. As part of the CORE rules? No way! :rolleyes: You didn't answer the second question. Nowhere in the rules is it stated that people have to be bigots.
Kursk 06-29-07, 07:46 PM	You didn't answer the second question. Nowhere in the rules is it stated that people have to be bigots. You ever read material about the original GH campaign? Apparently not...
Rerecros 06-29-07, 07:49 PM	This isnt eberron...Demons, Devils and such will not just be able to waltz into a store and slam down change for a pack of bubblegum. What! If a demon walzted into most any town in eberron people would be like HOLY !@#$! As for half dragons, it depends on what the other half is and what TYPE of dragon he is half of. That is if you divide dragons into scale are shiny = good, scales no shiny = evil. Vampires? Theyre undead! They kill people! Undeath has varying degrees of acceptance where ever you go. And any character can kill people
Salla 06-29-07, 07:52 PM	You ever read material about the original GH campaign? Apparently not... Doesn't matter. Crack open your PHB (3rd Edition, the only one that matters) and site a page number that says that unusual characters are automatically subject to prejudice and bigotry, we'll wait.
zae 06-29-07, 07:52 PM	I tend to run Planescape (specifically, Sigil Prep), and in Planescape, there's an equal level of intolerance for everyone. The different planar creatures slag each other off but don't engage in open combat. At least, they don't let it get too out of hand. So basically, if the sign says "We don't serve you fiendish scum", fiends won't go in there. At the same time, humanoids are all considered to be rather stupid and uneducated - the country bumpkin or Amish person wandering into New York. A bit of laughter at their expense, maybe shoved around a bit. Everyone gets insulted by someone, everyone has somewhere they're not welcome, but overall, that's as bad as it gets in Sigil. In other games, I play it down a bit. But in small backwater towns, if you're obviously monstrous, and don't appear to be "under the control of the humanoids", then the peasantry will all try to keep their distance and hope to get a had start if running is needed. No-one's dumb enough to attack a monster, because they understand they'll die. If they enter a store on their own, the owner is likely to either tell them they're not welcome without one of the others there to keep a handle on them, or simply dive under the counter and shout "Take anything you want, just don't hit my face." Mere tieflings and other "I look a little abnormal" will be seen as a curiosity - but when half-orcs and the like are a fact of life, they understand the concept of "A human who is part _____". They might be rude about it, or openly curious, or they might pretend they can't see any difference. In big cities, once they reach the edge, guards will be gathered to ask monstrous PCs (and their parties) to stop there and explain their business. If it doesn't seem like they'll be a problem, they're let in, and the guards in the city will just keep a bit of an eye on them, just to make sure. Same goes for people who look like your typical black knight or evil necromancer, though.
Kursk 06-29-07, 07:58 PM	Doesn't matter. Crack open your PHB (3rd Edition, the only one that matters) and site a page number that says that unusual characters are automatically subject to prejudice and bigotry, we'll wait. It's not in the PHB. It's the DMG. PHB doesn't cover non-standard races much. Read the DMG for the 1st time. I'll wait. ;)
hangman1 06-29-07, 08:08 PM	I imagine Dnd occuring around 1100AD, and monsterous characters coming into town either to find the entire population hiding (meaning they can't take part in city adventures) or running after them with torches (which I guess is an adventure of sorts). My question mainly has to do with the ability of parties with these types of characters to get the full range of adventures. Several people have made a good point about half-orcs and others, but can even the acceptance of weird crap happening in a fantasy setting allow normal cityfolk to accept half-dragons, even if they are gold? Without making everyone compeletely aware of the intricacies of the world they live in at least. The other option is that such creatures are all over the place, which means the social settings have to be completely rethought. Or we can just forget about it. As for Nowhere in the rules is it stated that people have to be bigots. It doesn't state that gravity holds one to the ground either, at least not that I recall.
Kursk 06-29-07, 08:19 PM	As for It doesn't state that gravity holds one to the ground either, at least not that I recall. It's the chapter in the DMG right before the dissertation about quantum physics...
zzo38 06-29-07, 08:20 PM	Do any of your half-fiends/planetouched/hellboound/warforged/shadowtouched/halfdragon/vampire characters run into problems buying things in stores? I am curious about how people role-play characters like this, and how DM's deal with it. We don't allow anything large or that isn't humanoid. Do DM's allow these type of characters (even ogres) to walk into a town and buy a drink? How do you justify it, especially in a somewhat traditional setting? Do we all treat our campaigns like they're the Discworld, or do we try to justify the social setting? Does prejudice come into it? Supposedly half-orcs are ostracized, shouldn't half dragons have a problem? Just bored and curious, how do people deal with this issue? I would say probably if human/elf/dwarf whatever comes with them into the same store it might be easier for the owner of the store to figure it out. (Also, some people are smart and know a lot of things, some are wise, some not, so some people have different opinions of non-human/etc.)
Salla 06-29-07, 08:29 PM	The other option is that such creatures are all over the place, which means the social settings have to be completely rethought. Exactly. D&D games are not historical. Whatever the real world may or may not have been like has no bearing whatsoever on a D&D game.
hangman1 06-29-07, 08:31 PM	I agree, but what I am curious about is not the normal interaction problems suggested in the books between the standard PC races. I think they do fairly well describing how the various races view one another, some races have histories of mistrust, others get along well, etc. What I am curious about is those people who play demons and dragons and such and how they deal with the non-combat aspects of the game that seem to me, if you want to create anything near a realistic society, would be near impossible to deal with without making such things commonplace. That would mean there were demons and dragons walking around in the open eating at cafes and taking part in church services and guild meetings. This would be perfectly valid of course, which is why I asked. It would be a way to deal with all of these creatures, and would make intolerance less of a problems. You would have pretty tough tax collecters however. The disguise aspect makes sense, but even a heroic monster would have trouble garnering respect in any society of humanoids that I think most of us could imagine. I think the poster who said that his DM wouldn't even allow charisma checks in many situations may have a realistic (if not the most fun) solution.
robertliguori 06-29-07, 09:14 PM	This very topic was discussed at length in a Regdar's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=435174) article a while back. My two coppers: Yes, intolerance is a problem. It's a problem when monstrous PCs are tired of tolerating hordes of commoner1s who think that a mob is an appropriate response to their showing up and start leveling towns. Discrimination flows from those with power to those without it, and in a D&D setting, the ones with power are adventurers.
Reddington 06-29-07, 09:44 PM	In the campaign I play we use a pretty realistic world. In a campaign I played last winter one of our players made a minotaur who followed around the Monk in our group. If the minotuar player came into contact with villigers they would respond intelligently. They would either A. Run away in terror. B. Attack the minotaur. C. Run away to gather the town to hunt the minotaur. If you're a lowly villiger and you come face to face with a minotaur or something similarly brootish you won't give the monster a chance to explain itself. You'll kill it or run away.
Manyfist 06-29-07, 09:45 PM	I tend to run Planescape (specifically, Sigil Prep), and in Planescape, there's an equal level of intolerance for everyone. The different planar creatures slag each other off but don't engage in open combat. At least, they don't let it get too out of hand. So basically, if the sign says "We don't serve you fiendish scum", fiends won't go in there. Do say hi to Helga the Lunch Lady.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-29-07, 10:57 PM	The game I run is pretty much based on fairytales. Being human is pretty much the default. What is human is a matter of debate. You travel far enough, you run into some pretty weird humans. One feat I allow cheaply and easily gotten, so long as you find a troll to teach it to you, is "Monstrous Secret." It allows you to assume the form of the human you'd be if you happened to a be a human, as opposed to a troll or an ettin or what-have-you. It's a power-down for combat applications, but a power-up for social interactions. There's also some trouble with it where you to occasionally assume your natural form in a certain circumstance. The ettin in the game has to take his natural form when he eats, and he eats a lot. As the party has discovered, pretty much all of them being one variety of fairtyale creature or another attempting (or failing) to pass as human, there's an awful lot of this going on, and for the people in the know, there's a whole lot of don't ask/don't tell. The party mage recently caused a big to-do by casting Dispel Magic in the middle of the fantan parlor, attempting to find the disguised thief who was using a Hat of Disguise. Of course it also shorted out the Hat of Disguise worn by a young woman masquerading as a young man, and the ogre masquerading as another fantan player. This also got the mage nearly lynched for having publically outed a couple of strangers. As the joke has gone, by the time you get to a high enough level to cast True Seeing, you're not going to see much that will surprise you. But items that cast True Seeing? Those are contraband, if simply because they could be used by low level characters who might suddenly start freaking out if they realized how many dragons and werewolves and disguised fairy princesses there were running around. As for what it says or doesn't say in the Players Handbook, everything there must be taken with a grain of salt. If I believed the illustrations, I'd have to believe that Waterdeep has an outlet for Shrine of Hollywood, at least judging by what Hennet's wearing.
taski 06-30-07, 01:38 AM	In my game, it really depends on who you are and what culture you're trying to interact with. A vampire will get discounts in a hamlet that worships Nerull, while even a vanilla human will be feared and prodded in a goblin slum.
Jaxgaret 06-30-07, 03:24 AM	In my game, it really depends on who you are and what culture you're trying to interact with. A vampire will get discounts in a hamlet that worships Nerull, while even a vanilla human will be feared and prodded in a goblin slum. Not to toot your horn, but this is an excellent example.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-30-07, 07:28 AM	> or running after them with torches The thing is, in the D&D universe, this sort of behavior would quickly be weeded out. In the historical real world, a group of peasants with torches could overrun a disliked human pretty easily, and there probably wouldn't be any consequences. In the D&D world, a group of peasants with torches are liable to end up as hamburger, either because the creature is inherently tough (you've no idea how powerful that creature actually is, and looks can be very deceptive), because it's unusually skilled (attacking adventurers of any sort is a bad idea, attacking monstrous adventurers is an even worse one), or because you've just provoked its friends (who may be much more powerful) into taking a little revenge out on you. Which isn't to say that they'll *like* these creatures, but unlike real-world human society, a D&D human society is liable to want to avoid escalating any such situation if they can help it. So of these... > They would either > A. Run away in terror. > B. Attack the minotaur. > C. Run away to gather the town to hunt the minotaur. Only A is likely as long as the minotaur doesn't behave aggressively, because the societies which would do B and C would all be long-dead.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-30-07, 10:45 AM	> In the D&D world, a group of peasants with torches are liable to end up as hamburger, either because the creature is inherently tough (you've no idea how powerful that creature actually is, and looks can be very deceptive), because it's unusually skilled (attacking adventurers of any sort is a bad idea, attacking monstrous adventurers is an even worse one), or because you've just provoked its friends (who may be much more powerful) into taking a little revenge out on you. The group of peasants with torches ending up as hamburger is an awful lot like turning a shotgun on the teenagers who egg your car, an overreaction which will have unpleasant and far reaching consequences, one of which may possibly even be your death. Consider, say, your average dragon. Folk will tolerate it living in a cave, eating the occasional cow, extorting the occasional king into feeding it a princess every generation or so and so on, as well of the perk of no one complaining much if it eats any and all adventurers who go to its cave. However, if it suddenly decides in a fit of pique to go level a village, well then, all bets are off. Even if everyone there is low level commoners (and none of them are adventurers who thought it would be a picturesque place to retire or just take some time off), there's going to be someone who's related to someone powerful and the dragon's got a month to live at best. Is it going to be the old granny on the hill who cries "You have killed my children for five generation. May you and all you hold dear for five generations tall to ash as well!" At which point the 20th level witch burns herself up in a death curse of epic magnitude, and before people talk about a dragon's magic resistance, honestly, you don't get to be a 20th level witch without knowing about THAT and learning to do something about it. And if it for some other reason still isn't working, the other witches are going to put in the fix because it looks bad for one of them to fall to ash and then nothing happens. And dragon immunity isn't proof against peripheral effects, and once you Control Weather to have a hurricane outside the cave and floodwaters pouring in, well then, dead dragon. And this doesn't even get into the king worried about his sovereignity, the merchants worried about business, or the assassin whose niece was caught in the crossfire. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Even intolerance is tolerated within limits. As for whether the books say anything about it, the books are all style and no logic. In a real magical world, you'd be seeing half-everything templates. Humans and halflings would be shacking up on a regular basis, gnomes and elves likewise, and you'd even get the gay minotaur-dwarf couple. Hell, you'd even get the sorceress and her talking raven and she's going, "This isn't my familiar--this is my husband!" and people wouldn't know whether this was an unfortunate reincarnation accident, a husband who's fond of polymorph spells, a shapechanged dragon, or just a talking bird with a thing for sorceresses and the feeling is mutual. Can you marry your familiar? Who's going to stop you? This is a nightmare every cleric in D&D is going to have. One day you have a woman walk into your temple with a talking raven and they both say they want to be married. How much is a marriage ceremony? What on earth do you say? What on earth do you say during the ceremony? "Will Pelor bless this woman and this, uh, bird, and their union, and smile upon their union and make it fruitful..." "Oh!" cries the sorceress, "when I cast 'Find Familiar,' I didn't know you I'd also find my true love!" "You may now kiss the bird, uh, bride..." "We're both brides," says the raven. The congregation gasps, because while transpeciesism is all well and good, lesbianism is right out. Unless it isn't. What the world is predicated on is the "most people" scenario. Most people date their own species, and marry it as well (except for the Mongrelmen, but they're what happens when people don't). Most people date the opposite sex and marry it as well (except for threads on the Mature topics board, because D&D is not going to officially write Hennet/Nebin, even if it looks pretty likely given the illustration of the two in the Epic Handbook). Except when people don't, and most people agree that most people aren't gnome illusionists or dragon-blooded sorcerers either. So, we've got Hennet/Nebin going on. What crazy adventurers do is their own business, except when it's not. Does the city allow dragons in, if one of them is the great-ancestor of one of the grooms? Will Alhandra stop trying to smite evil long enough for the wedding to take place, since Miallee has hooked up with a blackguard as her latest arm-candy and brought him to the wedding? Alhandra, how could you? We're all supposed to be tolerant here! Please, stop smiting that blackguard! Hennet and Nebin meanwhile see this and misinterpret it as an S&M threesome. "You crazy kids!" cries Hennet. "Wait for the reception!"
Neutronium_Dragon 06-30-07, 11:30 AM	> The group of peasants with torches ending up as hamburger is an awful lot > like turning a shotgun on the teenagers who egg your car, an overreaction > which will have unpleasant and far reaching consequences, one of which > may possibly even be your death. An overreaction which would be a lot less likely if you couldn't be certain that the shotgun would actually do anything to them (or might not do anything more than scratch them), and that they might not respond with eggs that are actually high-powered incendiaries and there goes both you and your house too. Or maybe your shotgun does blow them away, and not long thereafter your whole town goes up in a mushroom cloud. In which case the rest of the people in town probably didn't let you have the shotgun in the first place, knowing what you might cause with it. In the D&D universe, you can't count on "ordinary" means (which a shotgun is, relatively speaking, in the real world) working, even on otherwise-ordinary seeming creatures. Unless you happen to be one of those 20th level death-curse wielding types, but the average commoner certainly isn't that, and unlike the real-world torch wielders or even the yahoo with the shotgun, the average D&D commoner can't count on his attacks being effective, or that even if they are, the retaliation isn't going to be vastly worse than the perceived insult of the monster being present nearby. (In this regard, it's more like whipping out your shotgun when a large gang of heavily armed marines who happen to be carrying eggs are standing around near your car, and there's a military base just up the street.) But the same is true of many mid-level adventurers in the D&D world - you just don't pick a fight with them unless you're *trying* to get killed. The only difference is that the monster is more obviously a dangerous thing to cross, whereas you might not be able to tell the difference between the scholarly Commoner 1 who wears robes and the Wizard 20 who can flatten your town with a flick of his pinkie finger. That still doesn't mean you have to *like* them, or even want to do business with them, but only the blatantly suicidal commoners are going to start picking fights with monsters when they don't have to. That's what nutcases like adventurers are for. (And just look at the mortality rate of *that* job, despite being professionals at it!)
SilverFoxKnows 06-30-07, 12:05 PM	In my homebrew world it depends on the kingdom and what's trying to get through the front gates. In one Human kingdom a Half-Orc may get hassled. In another, Gnolls won't arouse too much suspicion. Anything really funky, insectile Mind Flayer/ Drow/ Half-Giants, are going to have a tough time just about everywhere. Frank
AaronDireBear 06-30-07, 06:18 PM	You didn't answer the second question. Nowhere in the rules is it stated that people have to be bigots. Where in the rules does it say that you have to be BLINDLY TOLERANT of every blood sucking demon that walks into town? Being scared of Red Dragons is NOT bigotry. Being scared of demons is NOT bigotry, Being scared of ogres is NOT bigotry. Throwing a black man out of the bar because he's black IS bigotry. And YES I DO follow the "shiny good, not shiny bad" rules, and as a matter of fact one of my major cities hands out dragon type identifier cards, considering the amount of half-dragon adventurers the city gets. Im still trying to work out a rhyming adage that the common folk use, you know like "red against yellow kills a fellow"
Sleepwalker13666 06-30-07, 06:40 PM	I play tieflings fairly frequently, some games it causes no problems, but most of the time I have to remain covered, fo as to not show off my fiendish features, one game i was in, even though I had gotten in harms way for the party on multiple occasions, and never betrayed them, once they found out I was a tiefling the paladin ran a sword through me.
jamesnero 06-30-07, 07:03 PM	My aasimar paladin was once kicked out of a tavern because he *looked funny* It doesnt matter what you are or who you are its simple instinct, simply your different from me. Is it necessary no but I feel it brings a certain amount of depth and character to a given world.
Rerecros 06-30-07, 07:22 PM	I've played changelings before. Never out of place except when they start acting like themselves.
Manyfist 06-30-07, 08:43 PM	Where in the rules does it say that you have to be BLINDLY TOLERANT of every blood sucking demon that walks into town? Well you don't, however if you don't give respect to every blood sucking demon that walks into town, then you'll be called "Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, a Snack, or Dinner". A half orc with a shiny glowing sword, followed by 2-4+ other people with shiny glowing stuff, I wouldn't want to mess with them. After all, they might turn them shiny swords against you. And YES I DO follow the "shiny good, not shiny bad" rules, and as a matter of fact one of my major cities hands out dragon type identifier cards, considering the amount of half-dragon adventurers the city gets. Im still trying to work out a rhyming adage that the common folk use, you know like "red against yellow kills a fellow" So dragons that are intelligent creatures (more so than your average joe) are bound to an alignment that it states in the MM? No room to change? I find this bigotry, for thats like saying all Humans are Neutral, Elves are always Chaotic Good...etc. No change what so ever. Also Half-Dragons may or may not be raised the way their color of their parents were. A gold half-dragon Halfling might be one the most vile assassins that ever walked, yet his parent was a gold dragon and MM states LG. Bigotry is also saying, one creature is always evil, and is static. Since all intelligent creatures (3+ int) have the ability to change (More intelligent you are the more so).
AaronDireBear 06-30-07, 08:51 PM	Well you don't, however if you don't give respect to every blood sucking demon that walks into town, then you'll be called "Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, a Snack, or Dinner". A half orc with a shiny glowing sword, followed by 2-4+ other people with shiny glowing stuff, I wouldn't want to mess with them. After all, they might turn them shiny swords against you. So dragons that are intelligent creatures (more so than your average joe) are bound to an alignment that it states in the MM? No room to change? I find this bigotry, for thats like saying all Humans are Neutral, Elves are always Chaotic Good...etc. No change what so ever. Also Half-Dragons may or may not be raised the way their color of their parents were. A gold half-dragon Halfling might be one the most vile assassins that ever walked, yet his parent was a gold dragon and MM states LG. Bigotry is also saying, one creature is always evil, and is static. Since all intelligent creatures (3+ int) have the ability to change (More intelligent you are the more so). So the idea that Demons and red dragons are "always chaotic evil" is bigotry to you? Typical liberal, eberron playing bullcrap. And yes, if the Alignment entry says ALWAYS then I WILL "bind" it to the rules. What do you have against letting evil mo snters be evil and good monsters be good? God, I would NEVER play in your game, because all the Angels would probably be disciples of Dispater and all the Balors would be Vassals of Bahamut. It would be fricking confusing, Eberron crap! Also, show me an entry that says ALL intelligent creatures have the ability to change. Prove your retarded claims.
Manyfist 06-30-07, 09:02 PM	So the idea that Demons and red dragons are "always chaotic evil" is bigotry to you? Typical liberal, eberron playing bullcrap. Demons yes they're always CE why? Because thats what they're made from, I am sure one demon might TRY to fight it, however thats like fighting being human. Eventually that demon will go back to being CE. A red-dragon, however is not born out of the chaos of the infinite layers of the abyss. They DO have LOTs of room to change, after all they're just like super sized, super intelligent scaly humans in a way. A Red Dragon might not feel the need to plunder all he can, and might see helping the lesser races more of a reward (in moral and wealth sense) than stealing from them. Dragons DO get lonely you know, and for someone to match their wit could lead to a friendship. Also, look at Drizzt, if all Drow are always evil, and why is Drizzt good? Jarlaxle isn't evil, either for he gets along well with Artemis who's evil, even calling him a friend. Why else would he leave his mercenary band and travel with Artemis? And yes, if the Alignment entry says ALWAYS then I WILL "bind" it to the rules. What do you have against letting evil mo snters be evil and good monsters be good? "Evil" monster baby raised by a paladin (who knows that babies are innocent) would most likely become the parents alignment (LG). God, I would NEVER play in your game, because all the Angels would probably be disciples of Dispater and all the Balors would be Vassals of Bahamut. It would be fricking confusing, Eberron crap! Celestials and Demons/Devils have a chance to change, however they don't stay Celestials or Demons/Devils. If a Devil/Demon sees the light (rare) then he turns into a celestial, and if a Celestial is corrupted by evil then he turns into a Devil or Demon. Its not confusing, Celestials and Devils/Demons are made to their alignment. Other outsiders are just like humans in the sense they are citizens of their plane. Material beings have the greatest chance to change. There's evil humans, why can't their be good minotaurs or orcs? Half-Orcs aren't always evil, why should Orcs be? It adds more depth, than "See Kobold, kill Kobold!" also, I suggest you to read the web comic "Goblins" it shows you how even "evil" can be good. Also, show me an entry that says ALL intelligent creatures have the ability to change. Prove your retarded claims. Reply With Quote Common Sense. Humans can be LG to CE. However if you're raised by a evil society then most likely your going to be evil (Thay for example). Society that you were raised in has a lot to do with w/e your alignment is. To say a infant orc who was raised by humans (good) would turn evil just because he's a Orc? Closed mindedness in campaigns leads to shallow Hack-and Slash. If all Humans are good, and if all Orcs are evil, then why do you have corruption in Human society, and why is there Orcs who are solo?
Sleepwalker13666 06-30-07, 09:07 PM	So the idea that Demons and red dragons are "always chaotic evil" is bigotry to you? Typical liberal, eberron playing bullcrap. And yes, if the Alignment entry says ALWAYS then I WILL "bind" it to the rules. What do you have against letting evil mo snters be evil and good monsters be good? God, I would NEVER play in your game, because all the Angels would probably be disciples of Dispater and all the Balors would be Vassals of Bahamut. It would be fricking confusing, Eberron crap! Also, show me an entry that says ALL intelligent creatures have the ability to change. Prove your retarded claims. How bought the sanctified creature in BoED? Sanctified Red Dragon, chaotic good.
AaronDireBear 06-30-07, 09:13 PM	Demons yes they're always CE why? Because thats what they're made from, I am sure one demon might TRY to fight it, however thats like fighting being human. Eventually that demon will go back to being CE. A red-dragon, however is not born out of the chaos of the infinite layers of the abyss. They DO have LOTs of room to change, after all they're just like super sized, super intelligent scaly humans in a way. A Red Dragon might not feel the need to plunder all he can, and might see helping the lesser races more of a reward (in moral and wealth sense) than stealing from them. Dragons DO get lonely you know, and for someone to match their wit could lead to a friendship. Also, look at Drizzt, if all Drow are always evil, and why is Drizzt good? Jarlaxle isn't evil, either for he gets along well with Artemis who's evil, even calling him a friend. Why else would he leave his mercenary band and travel with Artemis? That arguement doesnt work, because Drow are USUALLY Neutral Evil not ALWAYS Neutral Evil, whereas Red Dragons are listed with an ALWAYS next to their alignment. The difference between a USUALLY and an ALWAYS is because the one with the ALWAYS next to the alignment is evil by nature.
AaronDireBear 06-30-07, 09:14 PM	How bought the sanctified creature in BoED? Sanctified Red Dragon, chaotic good. Thats from having a spell cast upon it. Try again.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 06-30-07, 09:21 PM	their is the template in the book of exalted deeds that allows you to turns always evil creatures into good creatures. it is called sanctified creature. and I'm sure there is an opposite to that somewhere.
Manyfist 06-30-07, 09:23 PM	Thats from having a spell cast upon it. Try again. Look at the redeemed villain in BOED. No spells, no magic alignment changing helmet. However mercy from others showed "her" (Illithids have no gender) the way of good.
AaronDireBear 06-30-07, 09:34 PM	Why are we resorting to using the BoED int hese arguements? I have seen all of you on this board constantly LAMBAST the book on SEVERAL occasions, so why are you flip-flopping and using it as a basis for your arguement? Clearly the writers of the Book of Exalted deeds forgot that Mindflayers are evil by nature, just as they forgot many, many things about the alignment system....and Ilithid anatomy for that matter. baby_kamikaze, Read the template, it states that the templatte may only be added to a creature which has been hit with a certain spell.
Manyfist 06-30-07, 09:38 PM	That arguement doesnt work, because Drow are USUALLY Neutral Evil not ALWAYS Neutral Evil, whereas Red Dragons are listed with an ALWAYS next to their alignment. The difference between a USUALLY and an ALWAYS is because the one with the ALWAYS next to the alignment is evil by nature. Which brings up the question of Nature v. Nurture. Domestic Dogs were wild, and do you see them running with a pack taking down people? Nurture turned them docile (and nurture can also turn them hostile). Alignment is pretty stupid, a Black and White world, is stupid as well. In a Black and White world you know w/e it is, is. Slay the Red/Black/Green/or White Dragon, Rescue the Princess, marry the princess... however a twist could be, the Red/Black/Green/or White Dragon is good, and is trying to redeem the princess who was raised in a society of evil. Sure go ahead slay the dragon, marry the princess, then get sacrificed later by the evil princess and her evil cult. Eberron imo, is the best way to go, where most things are morally Grey, where you don't know if that Ogre is going to help you or try to eat you...etc.
Manyfist 06-30-07, 09:44 PM	Why are we resorting to using the BoED int hese arguements? I have seen all of you on this board constantly LAMBAST the book on SEVERAL occasions, so why are you flip-flopping and using it as a basis for your arguement? Because its one the few books out of Eberron who don't play on what the MM states as if it was law and not guidelines. Clearly the writers of the Book of Exalted deeds forgot that Mindflayers are evil by nature, just as they forgot many, many things about the alignment system....and Ilithid anatomy for that matter. Its not like the Illithid has a choice, thats how they reproduce and grow more Illithids. Also just like you stated above, Illithids are OFTEN LE. "Often" is the key. I do away with all alignment and crap like that. Makes no sense that your strictly bound to a set of mind just because it what defined good and evil.
CCS 07-01-07, 01:44 AM	Doesn't matter. Crack open your PHB (3rd Edition, the only one that matters) and site a page number that says that unusual characters are automatically subject to prejudice and bigotry, we'll wait. And why would someone bother to try and prove a present day point by waving yesterdays book around? Last time I checked the only book that could be ordered was the 3.5 version....So why not use that one?
Neutronium_Dragon 07-01-07, 07:17 AM	> So the idea that Demons and red dragons are "always chaotic evil" is bigotry > to you? > Typical liberal, eberron playing bullcrap. I don't see what US politics has to do with it, but it's not specific to Eberron. The Forgotten Realms setting also treats most Always alignments as Often or Usually instead with its published material. (SKR has commented that this is a deliberate stance by the setting's designers too, not some oversight; it was felt that the MM had thrown around "Always" far too freely.) Alignment-based outsiders and animal/nonintelligent creatures maintain Always, but pretty much everything that's intelligent and not made of alignment-stuff is downgraded to Usually or Often. That includes dragons, so yes, it *is* a mistake to assume that a red dragon in the FR is Always CE. Most are, but exceptions are still pretty common.
Spellskin 07-01-07, 09:56 AM	A good dose of common sense is what my worlds are made of. "Scary" or "rare" beings are often looked at differently then ones nextdoor neighbour simply because the "human" mind doesn't always act completely rationally and sometimes behaves on instinct and emotion. Sure there are exceptions and people often realize these exist, but oftentimes they will not be willing to take that chance and say "G'day!" to the ogre who just walked through the gate. Stereotypes and clichés, wich is what this is basically about, exist because there is some merit to it. The majority of any specified group will act in a manner typical to said group, just like nowadays. Look at any group of people and honestly say you don't have preconceived notions about that group's behavior, thoughts, likes or dislikes and I'll admit you're an enlightened man who never judges the book by it's cover. When I see a guy in a dress I think the guy's a crossdresser, but I don't think that way on Halloween, then I think he's just dressed as a woman for the fun of it. When I see a person with dreadlocks I admit I will think of good ol' Bob Marley, hippies and stoners, but one of my closest friends isn't like any of those at all, he just likes the way it looks. When a person says he's a democrat doesn't necesarily mean he agrees with every single point "his side" makes, same goes for any political point of view. When I see a fat guy at McDonalds I must admit I'll like him less than if he weren't, but Santa Claus is also fat and I think he's cool. It's true that this may not be the best way of looking at everything but we don't necesarily have complete control over our emotions, throwing them aside and to rationally judge by ones actions instead of ones "group". We'll often change our point of view when we experience the difference, when we experience the person as an individual being, instead of a small part of a larger mass tied to a certain way of life. Same goes for D&D. If the aforementioned ogre waltzes into town he likely won't be heralded with trumpets at dawn. The response it gets from those around him will mostly be negative. If the ogre sees a chance to show his true nature most people will acknowledge this and adjust their responses accordingly; Or not at all if the ogre turns out to be a stereotypical ogre. If a beautifull Elven girl walks through that same gate she'll probably be fawned over by most heterosexual men because of her beauty and most females will either admire her for her beauty or feel jealous, but this all changes when she opens her mouth and burps... Such a simple act can overthrow every single preconceived notion someone had about anyone or anything. On another note I've noticed that some posters here seem to adhere so strictly to their point of view that they don't see the intent of the other poster. When a person says "not always" it doesn't necesarily mean "always isn't".
Mentar 07-01-07, 10:58 PM	Intolerance exists. Is it a problem? That depends on if you are a hack and slash roll-player or if you want to attempt to earn the trust of the people and role-play. For roll-play campaigns the DM may decide that everything is everywhere and intolerance is only a problem with individuals. If your group is using monstrous characters to buff up for killing things and not considering the reactions of the people, and the DM accepts this, intolerance may or may not exist in that world. If some members of your group want to utilize the monstrous characters for additional role-playing opportunities, make sure your DM knows this. Plan out how you will act as you approach a town, what to do when everyone hides under their beds and all the shops and taverns close as you come near. Sure some characters may not be "acceptable" in "polite" society, but it always revolves around your DM and how that DM wants to play it. If you want to play an ogre and the DM recommends against it, ask why. If your DM doesn't want to go through the hassle of reactions to your character, you may be able to change the DM's mind with role-playing ideas for how to gain fame, perhaps even having your ogre stop at the outskirts of each town and calling out for someone to fetch the guard so that you can be escorted to whatever temple you worship. Offer to purchase your own manacles and chains, to show the guard that you are willing to put yourself fully at their mercy in order to perform your religious duties. Once done with those ask if it would be possible to purchase supplies, maybe even use the guard as middlemen for the purchasing. There are a lot of ways to role-play through it. Many times you may be forced to wait outside of town, under guard, while your allies do their purchasing and yours. Will there be incidents of mobs with pitchforks and torches, probably, but that just means you will have to wait outside town while your allies do what is needed within. If you think (as some apparently do) that RAW trumps everything and when the MM says "always" there is no changing it, please look in the DMG. See that little blurb about "Rule 0"? If you are DM and want to run that way, I don't have to play in your games. If you are a player in my game and want to complain because the MM says silver dragons are always good and I just told you that your paladins detect evil ability is making you nauseous from the evil of the ancient silver dragon eying you, then you can go play in someone else's game. If the ancient wyrm red dragon has not left his cave in centuries, and is actually being paid by a nearby city to smelt metal, that dragon may very well have become LE over time rather then CE as the "always" states.
AllWillFall2Me 07-02-07, 01:26 AM	So the idea that Demons and red dragons are "always chaotic evil" is bigotry to you? Typical liberal, eberron playing bullcrap. And yes, if the Alignment entry says ALWAYS then I WILL "bind" it to the rules. What do you have against letting evil mo snters be evil and good monsters be good? God, I would NEVER play in your game, because all the Angels would probably be disciples of Dispater and all the Balors would be Vassals of Bahamut. It would be fricking confusing, Eberron crap! Also, show me an entry that says ALL intelligent creatures have the ability to change. Prove your retarded claims. Well, I don't have any sort of proof of that claim, but I do have this one (Empahsis mine, of course): Monster Manual 3.5, Page 305, Alignment: Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions. Before you start shooting your mouth off about needing inflexibility, perhaps you should check the source you defend so readily. This just goes to show that "stupid commoner" intolerance is more common than we suspected. :P In fact, In the time it took me to make that point, I found the proof to their "retarded claim" (again, my emphasis): Player's Handbook 3.5, Page 104: "Normal sentient creatures can be of any alignment. they may have inherent tendencies toward a particular alignment, but individuals can vary from this norm." Well, that seems fairly clear cut. You did a good job arguing, but you have to remember, before Eberron, such twists were actually exciting. "What do you mean the ANGEL is behind the plot?!" I'd like to say that my language was a bit strong in this, but only because of the pompous tone taken by Mr. DireBear. And we do have to view the circumstance of the intolerance. Yes, I agree, if I rounded a corner and found myself face-to-chest with a minotaur carrying a giant axe, I would run. However, I would also notice that he wasn't swinging the axe. And was wearing a shirt. And pants. All different from my understood notion of minotaur behavior. Having an ogre walk in the town gates is probably cause enough for people to stop and wonder for a second. Why isn't he attacking? Don't ogres normally just club people all the time, not ask for things? Also, let's not forget the darker half of human nature. Hey, if the ogre is my pal, maybe he'll rough up those guys who keep picking on me. Heck, it shouldn't be that hard to convince him, everyone knows ogres are dumb.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-02-07, 01:51 AM	It would also depend rather heavily on whether there's any hostility going on in general. If the town's at war with the local orc tribe then orcs aren't going to get a good reception, but if things have been quiet (or there isn't an orc tribe nearby in the first place) then the orc isn't really much worse than that human guy who is visiting from Baron Poobah's lands; the same Baron Poobah and his people whom you've heard all kinds of strange and scary things about on the grapevine just like you have of the orcs. (Remember that medieval rumor mills were amazingly active and even people the next town over were often regarded as strange and scary - you might have heard lots of things about how orcs like to chop people up with their axes, but Baron Poobah's people are said to do things which are just as bad. And that's even scarier because one of them could be hiding among you and you'd have a hard time knowing it...)
AaronDireBear 07-02-07, 12:41 PM	Well I dont believe in ****ing with player's heads with stupid twists like that. I don't believe in the notion that something MUST be surprising or unexpected in order to be entertaining. And youre still hypocrites for lambvasting the BoED and then using it in your arguements.
Lelander_the_L 07-02-07, 03:24 PM	I'm playing a Warworged out of Eberron, so getting any components is virtually impossible
AllWillFall2Me 07-02-07, 03:39 PM	Well I dont believe in ****ing with player's heads with stupid twists like that. I don't believe in the notion that something MUST be surprising or unexpected in order to be entertaining. And youre still hypocrites for lambvasting the BoED and then using it in your arguements. It doesn't, and they probably are. As the second part of my quote from the Monster Manual says, "these are unique or rare exceptions." I would expect, generally, that when I meet a devil, angel, or red dragon, that they are going to match my understanding of how those creatures behave. I'm not going to suspect that every angel I meet is going to lie to me. In fact, once one did, I'd probably still keep trusting the others. Your tone seems to be a strengthened form of "familiarity breeds contempt". Back when maybe one out all the red dragons will will ever meet was a nice guy, that made it interesting. You asked, "why? What makes this one different?" Now, in Eberron, they deliberately made it so alignment was fluid. I find that a totally acceptable approach. It makes intrigue so much more interesting, when you can't rely on mere appearances to judge trustworthiness. I mean, yes, I lose the certainty that when the gold dragon tells me that this will end well, it will, but that's part of the Eberron feel, the world isn't a certain place in Eberron. Warning, possible minor spoiler:Hell, the LE Vampire King is the strongest proponent for peace, and the NG human Queen the most likely to start another war! Pertaining to the BoED, I haven't read those threads, so I can't back you or argue you in that department. I can only hope that they did indeed do so, otherwise why would you accuse them? Neutronium dragon does make a good point. If no one's heard about any ogres causing trouble in a while, the ogre's going to get a better reception than the human from the invading foreign nation. Neither will be on particularly good or bad terms, but at least the ogre's people aren't making a mess right now.
AllWillFall2Me 07-02-07, 03:41 PM	I'm playing a Warworged out of Eberron, so getting any components is virtually impossible I think that's less intolerance and more lack of ability. When you really are something no one's ever seen before, it's to be expected that they can't help you get new parts.
Lelander_the_L 07-02-07, 03:51 PM	yes thats what I mean. I was misunderstanding the title sorry Being a Warforged I don't have any problem with intolerance. I just shock the townspeople. Now being the only warforged within' about 1000 MILES, kinda' sucks 'cause everyone wants me to do all the heavy lifting and work......
Novem 07-02-07, 03:57 PM	This isnt eberron...Demons, Devils and such will not just be able to waltz into a store and slam down change for a pack of bubblegum. Maybe Eberron has it right- I also like my campaigns to be enlightened. I am a modern person with modern morals. This means Good people are not racists, and people know how to get along. For all the sentient, humanoid races of the D&D world to have evolved and developed civilization side-by-side without wiping each other out, they would have had to have modernized years before. Of course, that's my take on it.
Shiftkitty 07-02-07, 04:10 PM	When my players find intolerance in our campaign, they use it as an excuse to get rough. In an old game, I thought I'd make life tough for a half-orc character. I had decided the town's policy on anything with orcish blood long ago, and when they sent him to see about lodgings, he had to come back to the party and tell them that "his kind" wasn't welcome there. This led to the party going in en masse and trashing the place, then declaring it wasn't a fit place for a retarded ooze. Yeah, they got arrested. Yeah they were hit with sh** loads of fines. Yeah, they escaped and have never gone back to that town, although they stole the sheriff's horses in the process. The intolarence usually encountered by my players is against dungeon delvers in general. The innkeeper might not trust the tiefling, but there's no way in hell he's gonna rent a room to a bunch that makes a living out of breaking into places and stealing stuff. To have an adventurer in your family is something you keep in the closet. "Oh, our son Alfred? He's gay. He even cross-dresses and dances in the streets for coppers. Reynard? He's, uh, he's...away at school. Yes, that's it. School. Mm-hm. Studying."
Spellskin 07-02-07, 04:22 PM	Well I dont believe in ****ing with player's heads with stupid twists like that. I don't believe in the notion that something MUST be surprising or unexpected in order to be entertaining. Who said "MUST"? I don't recall someone doing so. As I've said before when people say "a devil isn't always LE" that doesn't mean "a devil always isn't LE" wich seems to be what you're thinking. Most creatures will and should adhere to the alignments they are presented with in the MM's, just not always. And youre still hypocrites for lambvasting the BoED and then using it in your arguements. Yes, those people would be hypocrites or they might be playing devil's advocate. Regardless, I don't like the fact that you're speaking so easily about everyone here, generalizing everyone. One or two people have attempted using the BoED as an argument, but they're not the only 'criminals' because of it? Nope, all who say that wich you don't want to hear is scum!!! Will you please stop this ridiculous selfrighteous crusade? It almost seems like you've read about "us" in the MM and seen that we all behave the same way! But, hey! At least you're not a hypocrite, right!
Novem 07-02-07, 06:28 PM	So the idea that Demons and red dragons are "always chaotic evil" is bigotry to you? Typical liberal, eberron playing bullcrap. And yes, if the Alignment entry says ALWAYS then I WILL "bind" it to the rules. What do you have against letting evil mo snters be evil and good monsters be good? God, I would NEVER play in your game, because all the Angels would probably be disciples of Dispater and all the Balors would be Vassals of Bahamut. It would be fricking confusing, Eberron crap! Also, show me an entry that says ALL intelligent creatures have the ability to change. Prove your retarded claims. Hey- let's not bring politics into this. I find the idea that a creature is "always" anything to be the height of bigotry, myself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the viewpoint that can only see "good" and "evil" as stereotypes applied to race is indeed bigoted. Also, while it may not be intentional, your post is very offensive- I would advise clearing up any confusion.
Mentar 07-02-07, 08:40 PM	Actually, to the original question, I believe everyone can see, from the words of one who insults all, that yes. Intolerance is a problem.
AaronDireBear 07-02-07, 10:28 PM	Wait so you go calling demon hunters bigots? There is a major problem in your logic. Since when is it wrong to hate demons, who are made up of evil energy from the lower planes?\ Throwing around terms like bigot and racist doesnt help your arguements either. What is so HORRENDOUS about letting heroes be heroes and letting the world be as it seems? For the record, Eberron sucks. How that one out of 10,000 entries won is beyond me. Someone was on his knees, thats for sure.
Shiftkitty 07-02-07, 10:45 PM	People who like Eberron are liberals? Hmm. I'm a moderate. What worlds am I relegated to?
zzo38 07-03-07, 12:17 AM	I think anyone should be allowed to change alignment it makes the game harder, more interesting, realistic, and other stuff, that's all. Except demons, because if a demon changes alignment it explodes. Outsiders with alignment subtypes are much less likely to change alignment but still possible. Non-outsiders (such as dragons and stuff) can be any alignment.
Manyfist 07-03-07, 02:00 AM	Wait so you go calling demon hunters bigots? If the Hunters are good, and if the demon is not evil, then they are bigots. However demons can't change, they're MADE of chaos. Devils can change, however its really hard to change one. Outsiders of Good or Evil Subtype usually don't change their alignment that often as mortals would since they where made that way, and if they change they change their race. There is a major problem in your logic. Since when is it wrong to hate demons, who are made up of evil energy from the lower planes?\ Nothing is wrong with hating primal evil, just that alignment shouldn't be defined by w/e the MM says just because its written down. Common sense should be applied. Throwing around terms like bigot and racist doesnt help your arguements either. True, however you are considered "Racist" if you don't like Orcs ...etc. and call them all evil, and can't change. You are considered a bigot to state that if the MM says w/e it must be true, regardless of rule 0. What is so HORRENDOUS about letting heroes be heroes and letting the world be as it seems? You can still be Heroic, however some people have different view of "Heroic". Some one might consider being a hero not to destroy evil but to bring light to those who have fallen. In a world where alignment typically doesn't dictate your actions being a Hero has a different meaning. To be narrow minded and state that X are static and can't change, then your not really playing D&D. What happens when that Silver Dragon turns into a Vampire in your traditional world? Silver Dragons are good, however they still can't be good if they become a vampire even if its against their will? For the record, Eberron sucks. How that one out of 10,000 entries won is beyond me. Someone was on his knees, thats for sure. Eberron is great. Its fresh, inventive and VERY well written out. Its not your typical fantasy land, in which Elves are always good guys, orcs are never amount to anything but to provide XP for adventurers, and one the most intelligent creatures in the material plane have static alignments dictated by the color of their scales. Try something new, you might like it. If you don't then go back to playing w/e you were. The thing about Eberron is that you ARE the heroes, you can become legends in your own right. Its requires a little bit more brains to play than your average high fantasy world. In FR 99.9% time you see a Drow you want to kill it as fast you can (unless you run into a violet eyed, dual wielding scimitar drow then you should kill it faster). However in Eberron, meeting a drow could lead you into either an ambush, or a guide to untold riches, or a temp/perm party member who will help you and your party with some battles..etc. Playing in Eberron is like playing in a good film or excellent novel, nothing is what it seems and danger is around the corner from the unexpected. Orcs are not always savage barbarians, most are as sophisticated if not more than humans and other "common races". Does that mean there is not evil orcs? No, there is evil orcs, however not all evil must be exterminated, and vise-versa. Good rule to follow, attack only if attacked (or if you know these guys are extremely evil and must be exterminated).
AaronDireBear 07-03-07, 01:28 PM	I find that extremelty insulting and offensive that you would call me a racist for FOLLOWING THE RULES AS WRITTEN. Like I said, I don't LIKE that crap where every dark elf MAY be good or Every high elf MAY be bad, its FRUSTRATING and its STUPID to run a game where NOTHING IS EVER CERTAIN, this is dungeons and dragons, a HIGH FANTASY game not a PULP FICTION/FILM NOIR game! Kill the dragon, save the princess, get rich, level up save the world from certain doom. Is that really so much to ask for? I tried Eberron and it is retarded. Paladins can go around raping and killing if they THINK its the lawful good thing to do? COME ON! WHat kind of garbage is that? Also you can't be very heroic when there's a glass ceiling that forces players to basically stop gameplay at 10th level, where tehre are no dragons or evil empires or tribes of orcs attacking human villages, and its no fun to adventure when you can just take the train. Eberron is NOT inventive, it steals from so many different things and tries to mush them all together to create a film noir setting. There's no connection to the GReat Wheel, no SIGIL, the gods are distant and 14 moons COME ON!!! You only see it as inventive because. it fits with your moral relativist "no such thing as black and white" attitude, hence the "liberal" comment. So yeah, go play Eberron. Slay a princess to rescue a dragon and eat her flesh while making sacrifices to "the benign" Lord Dispater. I aint about to play dnd like Post-Special-Edition Han Solo, letting my enemy get a free shot every damn combat! And yes I LIKE knowing what dragons are good or evil by the color of their scales. If I want to SURPRISE my players, thats what POLYMORPH and ILLUSION SPELLS are for.
Kursk 07-03-07, 01:40 PM	I tried Eberron and it is retarded. Paladins can go around raping and killing if they THINK its the lawful good thing to do? COME ON! WHat kind of garbage is that? Eberron is not really a classic setting for D&D. I just consider it an off the wall campaign world. Doesn't really suit the rule set. As such, it can be fun to dabble in but, not for major long term play.
AllWillFall2Me 07-03-07, 02:17 PM	Sigh. I guess, I have nothing to say, but, Flame on. I find that extremelty insulting and offensive <snip> Excuse me? Ahem, "For the record, Eberron sucks. How that one out of 10,000 entries won is beyond me. Someone was on his knees, thats for sure." "youre still hypocrites" "I dont believe in ****ing with player's heads with stupid twists like that" "Prove your retarded claims" for FOLLOWING THE RULES AS WRITTEN. As would I, except I already PROVED that THE RULES AS WRITTEN DON'T AGREE WITH YOU. Like I said, I don't LIKE that crap where every dark elf MAY be good or Every high elf MAY be bad, its FRUSTRATING and its STUPID to run a game where NOTHING IS EVER CERTAIN, this is dungeons and dragons, a HIGH FANTASY game not a PULP FICTION/FILM NOIR game! CONGRATULATIONS! Welcome to Life, where nothing is certain! Have you seen our new NOIR themed Campaign setting, Eberron?I'm not going to even touch the Elf comments. Kill the dragon, save the princess, get rich, level up save the world from certain doom. Is that really so much to ask for? Is it so much to ask for something more? Something with an INTERESTING PLOT? I tried Eberron and it is retarded. Paladins can go around raping and killing if they THINK its the lawful good thing to do? COME ON! WHat kind of garbage is that? That is the stupidest thing I have heard you say. So me an entry that says that. Prove your retarded claims. PS: Paladins have been killing since their invention, that's why they're Holy WARRIORS. Also you can't be very heroic when there's a glass ceiling that forces players to basically stop gameplay at 10th level, where tehre are no dragons or evil empires or tribes of orcs attacking human villages, and its no fun to adventure when you can just take the train. Sarlona, an empire run by evil, mind controlling, entities from our worst nightmares. Xen'drik, A continent filled with dark mystery and the remnants of a Giant civilization. And any dragon can do whatever it wants since they have varying alignments and goals. Eberron is NOT inventive, it steals from so many different things and tries to mush them all together to create a film noir setting. There's no connection to the GReat Wheel, no SIGIL, the gods are distant and 14 moons COME ON!!! Sir, the latter half of your statement describes how Eberron isn't inventive because it doesn't blatantly take from the ESTABLISHED SETTING, WHICH IN TURN WAS BASED ON GREYHAWK. You only see it as inventive because. it fits with your moral relativist "no such thing as black and white" attitude, hence the "liberal" comment. So yeah, go play Eberron. Slay a princess to rescue a dragon and eat her flesh while making sacrifices to "the benign" Lord Dispater. Ahem, "lib·er·al (lĭb'ər-əl, lĭb'rəl) pronunciation adj. 1. 1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. 2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. And we're not saying No such thing as Black and white, we're saying check the color first! The "attack only when attacked" arguement also points to liberalism; "wait until hundreds are dead from an enemy attack before waging war with Germany and Japan, never make the first strike, never take the first action, wait for the enemy to get a chance to kill you". Alright, you've proven me wrong again. THIS is the stupidest thing I have heard you say. I agree to not follow the "attack only if attacked", that I can see as having it's flaws. It is the superior moral stance, but not the superior survival stance. But comparing Liberalism to this philosophy, and tying it in with a tragedy such as Pearl Harbor, shows a very poor understanding of Politics and morality. I aint about to play dnd like Post-Special-Edition Han Solo, letting my enemy get a free shot every damn combat! Even if Han did shoot first, that's called "winning Initiative". If he were a bad person, he'd have killed Greedo once he knew why he was there. And yes I LIKE knowing what dragons are good or evil by the color of their scales. If I want to SURPRISE my players, thats what POLYMORPH and ILLUSION SPELLS are for. Well, excuse me, but I don't like ****ing with my players' heads with stupid twists like that.
Kursk 07-03-07, 02:37 PM	Guys/gals, This is getting too personal. Let's stop the personal attacks and just discuss the effects or lack thereof regarding intolerance in your game world. Okay?
AllWillFall2Me 07-03-07, 03:38 PM	awww, but exploring Game-world intolerance in the Real World is such an interesting dynamic! ;P I just remembered, didn't Savage Species have a section about how varying worlds would react to monsters? EDIT:Found the section, read it, not that impressed.
Shiftkitty 07-03-07, 03:39 PM	I agree. Let's move on. In my gameworld, the level of intolerance in a town, city, or village depends on so much. A large city may have so many different races that people grow up in a multicultural setting and don't pay attention to anything except whether or not your weapon is unstrapped. Other cities may have the general trend that there are other fish in the sea, and if we don;t feel like dealing with you, shove off. A smaller village might be more clannish and distrustful of outsiders in general, or it may be on the frontier where even the nearby band of orcs wanders in to trade now and then. I try to draw inspiration from the American frontier. Not every Indian was a "savage redskin", not every settler was in conflict with them. I start unplanned encounters with a basic roll on a d10 to check the individual's level of tolerance and tweak it as I see fit. 10? "Welcome, brother!" 1? "Archie Bunker was a flaming liberal." I also try to give a reason. I have one recurring NPC who saw his brother cut to ribbons by the drow. Another just grew up in an environment that encouraged racial segregation and feelings of elitism. Some don't like certain races just because of what they've heard about them; elves are arrogant, orcs are stupid, etc. For the most part, I play the races according to stereotype. I change things up just enough to have my players know that there are general trends, but now and then you'll get an oddball. It doesn't stop them from slaughtering orcs and drop-kicking goblins, but it also doesn't keep them from listening if one seems to genuinely want to talk.
Arcturion 07-03-07, 04:10 PM	Conflict is the essence of good drama, and intolerance does open up some interesting (and fun) role-playing opportunities for players. Even in today's world, intolerance exists, and shouldn't be any different in a fantasy world based on medieval societies (unless your world is populated solely by freethinking open minded hippies, heh). I don't believe in melting pots in large metropolises (like New York City, where I'm originally from, or ancient Rome), but rather tossed salads; it's a veritable mix of things, some gel while others don't. The clash of cultures is ever a popular theme in literature, movies, and other media. The theme of heroes trying to fit into the world is a staple, really (take X-Men). One player in my game has a drow PC and has had her pass herself off as a dark-skinned human (African in our world) while in town, and it's drawn the attention of a garrulous dark-skinned human NPC (of an African-type race) who's very interested in the PC, so trying to blend in can come back to bite the players in the butt. :)
WizO_Cat 07-03-07, 05:07 PM	Ok, just a reminder: keep the discussion to the topic of the thread and not real life political and religious organizations. Thank you.
zelf_gale 07-03-07, 05:07 PM	All racial relations should be based on the perceived histories of species involved and the social dynamics of each group. So if commoners have been taught that a monstrous race has been up to no good then that's one step towards intolerant. If they've been taught that the race acts criminally violent that's two steps. And if they've been taught that the race acts criminally violent particularly towards the commoners' race(s) frequently thats three steps. Repeat the above process with the individual's reputation. Repeat the above process once with only the strongest of individual's allies' reputations. If the commoners are reclusive and closed towards outside societies in general then thats one to three steps depending on the severity. (Even large cities can be withdrawn from society outside their borders.) For each power center in the city (described in the DMG) that teaches intolerance towards the monstrous race add a step. If the commoners lack the equivalent of a modern day twelve year grade school education add a step. For ever 4 addition years lacking of education level equivalence add another step. If races do not normally integrate in the region in which the city resides add one to three steps depending on the amount of segregation. Now for each of these processes repeat moving the player towards tolerance if they qualify for the opposite category. (The monstrous race is known to be good, to be valorous, to be valorous for causes of the commoners' races, etc.) Roll a Charisma check when the monstrous PC encounters new groups of NPCs counting net steps towards tolerance as a bonus and conversely net steps towards intolerance as a penalty. DC Lower than 10... the commoners are hostile (but not necessarily stupid enough to attack a party.) DC 10 ... the commoners are unfriendly (but not necessarily stupid enough to get in the way of a party.) DC 15 ... the commoners are indifferent DC 25 ... the commoners are friendly DC 40 ... the commoners are helpful So Tim's Dark medieval campaign has human villagers who have been told that vampires eat humans (-3) and their mayor agrees (-1). Their town however lies on a trade route and is accustomed to a few regular visitors (+1) and the region has strong ties to dwarven and elven realms (+2). The races however rarely share lands (-2) and the commoners are not well educated about their customs (-1). This would give a -4 penalty so far before considering the monstrous PCs reputation and that of his allies. In Ed's Everyman campaign has a cosmopolitan city of half-elves and half-orcs who have been told that vampires are cursed beings (-1) but the local power centers are divided as to the possibility of their redemption (+0). The town is a cultural and trade hub (+3) and but is currently closed off from the region due to a war with a neighboring state (-1). Races share lands freely here (+3) and the average level of education is high (+1). Before reputation is considered the monstrous PC has a +5 bonus to their charisma check.
Kursk 07-03-07, 05:31 PM	All racial relations should be based on the perceived histories of species involved and the social dynamics of each group. That's a well thought out reaction table system. Could be applied to most worlds and is flexible.
AllWillFall2Me 07-03-07, 05:31 PM	That is a very elegant system, good sir. And I liked Arcturion's story, I've often wondered how random people "in the know" would act.
Sleepwalker13666 07-05-07, 04:44 AM	Well I dont believe in ****ing with player's heads with stupid twists like that. I don't believe in the notion that something MUST be surprising or unexpected in order to be entertaining. And youre still hypocrites for lambvasting the BoED and then using it in your arguements. You asked for examples of shifts in "always" Alignments, and you where given some, you where shown in the rules that shifts happen. The players may never encounter one of these unique beings, or if they do may not know it, but it doesn't hurt the game to mix it up once in awhile. At the same time it doesn't hurt the game to leave it alone. Do you have to shock the players with the unexpected to be fun? No, not at all. Can you shock the players with the unexpected and still have fun? Yes you can.
AaronDireBear 07-05-07, 02:18 PM	You asked for examples of shifts in "always" Alignments, and you where given some, you where shown in the rules that shifts happen. The players may never encounter one of these unique beings, or if they do may not know it, but it doesn't hurt the game to mix it up once in awhile. At the same time it doesn't hurt the game to leave it alone. Do you have to shock the players with the unexpected to be fun? No, not at all. Can you shock the players with the unexpected and still have fun? Yes you can. Well thats your opinion and I will always consider it ridiculous.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 07-05-07, 02:26 PM	It should also be remembered that, by the RAW, not only can alignments vary in rare instances (meaning whenever the DM feels like, but he's advised to keep the variations rare), but that reforming or damning an individual is no more costly than getting a 12th level spellcaster with Craft Wondrous Item to make a Helm of Opposite Alignment along with a few Curse scrolls or similar toys to stack the deck and keep from having to use another HoOA if the individual to be reformed/damned makes their save. They're only 4000 gp. For 12th level, that's the price of party favors. And if you get access to an orange Ioun stone (DMG), a bottle of Terran Brandy (BoVD) and a powerful earth node (Underdark), you can make one as early as 6th level.
Keenath 07-05-07, 02:57 PM	This is a difficult question, because it depends heavily on the DM. Me? My opinion is, any DM who uses your race as a reason you aren't welcome in a city, is being a dunce. There's so much more fun you can have with a character inside a bigoted city. Most of it is little stuff -- similar to the Star Wars, "Your droids! They'll have to wait outside." But only use that as flavor -- you don't use that as a pretext to cut the player out of the game. Do it when the party is gathering information or going to meet a guy -- and promptly move the meeting outside once contact is made. Bigotry should be a flavor element, not an exclusion to the guy who's playing a monster. Now, in my game, I would tend to have the public reaction be one of caution and curiousity. I admit I read a lot of Discworld books, so I would use the typical Morporkian response to unfamiliar monsters in a city -- not to ignore them, but to back off, and then follow at a safe distance to see what happens. While you might have the occasional stupid rock-thrower, most of the time it'd be no big deal, though it's hard to operate undercover in that situation. However, the monster PC would be on his very best behavior -- if a stupid rockthrowing jerk can get a rise out of him -- an angry snarl would work -- the city watch will be showing up to "talk" with him about the citizen he "threatened". They might show up anyway, just to let him know he's being watched very closely. Like I say; don't use monstrousness as a reason to exclude a player from group activities, and use bigotry to produce plot points instead.
Manyfist 07-05-07, 03:02 PM	Well thats your opinion and I will always consider it ridiculous. Just like everyone will consider your views on how a D&D campaign should run as VERY boring.
suparman999 07-05-07, 05:47 PM	And ridiculous.
Kursk 07-05-07, 05:54 PM	Me? My opinion is, any DM who uses your race as a reason you aren't welcome in a city, is being a dunce. There's so much more fun you can have with a character inside a bigoted city. Yes, most of the inhabitants of hamlets throw their doors open for Mindflayers! They can't wait to have them over for "dinner." :rofl:
Sleepwalker13666 07-05-07, 10:39 PM	Well thats your opinion and I will always consider it ridiculous. I don't recall making an opinion there, I think i did a great job of fence sitting rather than picking a side, if you didn't want examples then why did you ask? I clearly stated that you can to "do it" or "not do it", we already know that you choose not to, and as long as your group is having fun then thats all that matters, but you shouldn't be hostile at these other members because they do mix up alignments. On the flip side the others should let up off you as well ( gotta maintain that fence sitter spot.).
Neutronium_Dragon 07-05-07, 11:16 PM	> Yes, most of the inhabitants of hamlets throw their doors open for > Mindflayers! They probably would since the mind flayer can command them to. ;) But even without that, if the mind flayer is openly approaching the place and behaving in a reasonably civilized fashion, the hamlet probably isn't going to contest its presence - they'll find out what it wants and try to provide it in the hopes that it moves on without trouble. That assumes that the mind flayer is a once-off thing and that mind flayers are generally known for behaving in a problematic fashion. If you're playing the "ignorant rubes" who are scared of everything, they probably don't know what it is in the first place, but they're still liable to presume that anything which looks like that and isn't being aggressive is probably best handled with utmost tact and diplomacy rather than torches and pitchforks. While a city might have less to worry about, this can work both ways - if the mind flayer is openly visiting then they can keep an eye on it, and better that than the one which is hiding somewhere in the city unbeknownst to them. (In fact, maybe the mind flayer can help them with that little thief infestation they're having...) The presence of other adventuring types is only likely to smooth things over even more. I mean, your average mid-level wizard can turn into just about anything he wants, and druids can take on quite a lot of weird shapes too - do you really want to take the chance that that friendly mindflayer is actually Archmage Almighty in an eccentric mood when you whip out your torches and pitchforks?
Shiftkitty 07-06-07, 03:29 PM	Mindflayers behaving in a "problematic fashion"? THEY EAT LIVING BRAINS!!! Sorry, I just thought that qualified for understatement of the year. I'm imagining you coming out of a dungeon, smoldering and bleeding profusely from head to toe, half of your party holding their innards in their hands, the other half now in the Great Beyond, and you casually wiping down your weapons and saying "Well, that was bit of nipper, now, wasn't it?" or "I'd say that dragon was being a bit rude, wouldn't you lads?":D
Neutronium_Dragon 07-06-07, 03:54 PM	Sure, they do. But if people in the setting are such ignorant rubes as seems to be presented in many of these "torches and pitchforks" scenarios, the people in that hamlet probably don't even know what the mind flayer is, nevermind what it eats.
Shiftkitty 07-07-07, 02:18 PM	Unless mindflayers have been in the area eating brains. You don't need to know everything about an obvious predator before you decide that one in your midst is a bad idea. If you have a camp set up and a grizzly or a mountain lion comes wandering in, you probably aren't going to wonder if it's just snooping around. You're going to chase it out at the very least. Likewise, reacting with hostility to something that 9 times out of 10 is a threat isn't being stupid or ignorant. Now if the person in question is an elf and elves haven't been a threat to the community, then it's racism plain and simple. But if the nearby elven tribes have been raiding the village and behaving in an unfriendly manner, then who can blame the townspeople for not wanting elves in their midst? A more worldy villager might notice that the visiting elf is not from that tribe and may be willing to give them a break, but others may not notice the difference or even care. They're just being careful.
Phelix_the_Warrior 07-07-07, 06:26 PM	One of my first magic items was that hat that allows me to use alter self. so My drow just looks like a human ect. he also has a bad habit of attacking everything on sight, including the "yoda" character of the campaign, though i think Ive worn all the "get out of jail free" cards the DM has for me after in an arena I fireballed the crowd.
Daelen Greymoon 07-07-07, 07:15 PM	I am new here, so help me out. Does EVERY topic at some point devolve into a discussion about whether alignments are set in stone? Does every thread end up with someone, and then someone else being personally insulted? Why do so many people have trouble with people in other groups (probably other cities, states, or even countries) doing things differently? Enough of my rant. For my views on intolerance in role playing games I will post separately. DG
Daelen Greymoon 07-07-07, 07:34 PM	I think there should be consequences to choosing to play a "weird" race character. BUT, they should be realistic to the setting that has been created (If you think Eberron sucks for having so much relativism, don't play. If you think Dark Sun is too restrictive concerning other racies' stereotypes, don't play. ALternatively, find a DM (or be one) who tweaks the rules. No one will die from it.) Occassionally makes sense in most worlds. However, if it is getting to be EVERY TIME it will get old. "Oh well, we need to get supplies. Gorath, you wait here" ...(later)... "Hey, Gorath! Sucks to be you, Buddy! The *****s were having a free night and we all won BIG at the poker tables!" Use it where it makes the game cool, use it if it makes the game difficult, but not if it makes the game suck. When I played my CG succubus I became a citizen of Silverymoon. The ONLY reason I was permitted to even enter the city was because the paladin I had rescued from the Abyss (Hey, it got me out too.) vouched for me with Alustriel. Then Alustriel and I got to be friends. (My new husband was a highly placed paladin.) Did that help after I killed Drizz't? NO! I got kicked out, after we had been friends for months! Is that fair? (Natural 20s do happen, Folks! Split that sparkly sword of his in 2 pieces and him right along with it.) And get this...killing Drizz't wasn't even my fault! HE attacked ME! Why? Because I was a demon. Is that fair? Of course, I had just fireballed a crowd of people in one of the Ten Towns (I forget which, if I ever knew.) But THEY were going to kill my daughter. (I lost my CG alignment there, but hey, cut me some slack, I was a demon! And my DM wasn't buying that "But I was being CHAOTIC" bs.) So, see...it all boils down to intolerance. Alustriel was intolerant of a succubus killing her friend (and secret crush) Drizz't. Drizz't was intolerant of a succubus killing 100 people in a lynch mob. And the people of 10 Towns were intolerant of a succubus using her powers to take over their government. If there was no intolerance then my daughter would be the queen of Ten Towns, I would be a housewife noblewoman in Silverymoon, and Drizz't would be alive. Where is the fun in that? DG
Neutronium_Dragon 07-07-07, 07:42 PM	> You don't need to know everything about an obvious predator before you > decide that one in your midst is a bad idea. Except that, as noted, the ignorant rubes (as is being presumed in the torches-and-pitchforks scenarios) in the hamlet probably don't know whether this creature is a predator. It looks mighty weird, but so do many/most things in the typical D&D world, including non-predatory ones. For all they can tell, it might eat bark and leaves - until it does something to demonstrate otherwise. This isn't akin to a bear wandering into your camp. This is akin to a UFO landing in your back yard and an alien getting out - you have no idea what it is or what it eats or whether it's a predator or a pacifist vegetarian or even what it's capable of. Sure, it's probably a good idea to be cautious, but acting violently on your assumptions is equally probably a bad one.
Shiftkitty 07-07-07, 08:41 PM	Okay. I didn't understand that you were meaning something they had absolutely no knowledge of. In that case, I'm sure some would be of the "if it's strange, kill it" mindset, while curiosity would win out in others. I do believe that most people would have one hand out in friendship while the other held a big club, figuratively speaking. I can see cautious curiosity carrying the day.