Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RazielK 08-01-07, 01:37 PM	I have been looking over the LA to the Vampire in the PH and have been comparing it to other spellcasting abilities and LA of other templates. It seems to me that it is a bit high for the abilities presented. The Half-Fiend tamplate gives you many of the same spells or stronger, on top of the ability to fly and increased ability scores. Does anybody have any ideas on how this could be changed? I am currently at work and I do not have my personally written templates here. But, I did create a Daywalker class relatively similiar to the Vampire with a lower HD. Authors note: This stems from a previois thread that was discussing vampires. (It had the words: "Oh my" in it if anyone wants to look it up, I perosnally do not know how, sorry guys). When I get home I will post my idea.
IdleAltruism 08-01-07, 02:51 PM	As they are vampires make great BBEG. They have to many numerous powerful abilities to walk away with a lower adjustment. These abilities work great against your average adventuring party but, they don't function nearly as well in the party. The fast healing and dr alone are worth a LA or 2, create spawn another, then the dominating gaze another, level drain, and everything else a vampire gets, like being hard to kill. The only reason they are playable at all is because of their weaknesses. But sadly their abilities don't really scale well in an average party. At level 13 they might do alright but they start falling behind powerwise very quickly.
RobbyPants 08-01-07, 02:55 PM	The vampire as written is pretty potent (much more so than the half fiend). Some advantages: Undead. This is huge. When undead, you become immune to many things, including (but not limited to): energy drain, ability damage, ability drain, stunning, paralyis, critical hits (including sneak attacks and Coup De Graces), nonlethal damage, and you don't need to eat, drink, sleep, or breath. Energy draining slam attack. Another big one. If someone has lots of HP, just keep stacking on the negative levels. They'll catch up quickly. Cold and Electric resistance 20. While not immune to any energy types, they have a high resistance to two. Gaseous Form. A nice escape tactic. Turn gaseous when at 0 HP. A nice fail-safe in combat. Dominate by gaze at will. This is a 5th level spell. Fast Healing 5. This is both good in and out of combat. Granted, the vampire is plagued by many weaknesses and limitations. However, a clever vampire can overcome many of these. I'm not sure that +8 is a good number for the LA, but it's certainly more powerful than the half fiend.
Llathos 08-01-07, 03:24 PM	Maybe someone can clear up this section of the rules for me. Call me crazy, but I thought a player's ECL was their LA + class HD. For example, a 3rd level monk vampire is ECL 11. That's 3 monk + 8 LA = 11 ECL. In general, a creature's CR is equal to their ECL. A 1st level fighter is a CR of 1, for example. So how is it that a first level monk vampire is considered an ECL of 9 but a CR of 3?! The entry states that CR is as base class +2. Really? A 3?! I guarantee you that a party of 4 level 3 players cannot handle a level 1 monk vampire and consume only 25% of their resources. It simply isn't happening. Chances are they won't even make it past the DR enough to keep up with fast healing. So what am I missing here?
Puca 08-01-07, 03:39 PM	In general, a creature's CR is equal to their ECL. A 1st level fighter is a CR of 1, for example. So how is it that a first level monk vampire is considered an ECL of 9 but a CR of 3?! The entry states that CR is as base class +2.Often ECL and CR are the same, but just as frequently they are not. In a single encounter with a vampire, its abilities make it more powerful than the base creature would be. As a character, over the course of many, many encounters, those same abilities will have a far greater impact. Thats why the disparity between the LA and the CR.
Aryxbez 08-01-07, 04:06 PM	Well Llathos, The Cleric in the party could easily turn the vampire. Sure it has a +2 turn res, but all that means is that he has to get a HD of 3, or 6 result to kill the vampire out right.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-01-07, 04:25 PM	Vampire PCs are, unfortunately, broken. Their LA is both too high and too low. You see, the way vampire's Create Spawn ability limit is set, the returns don't diminish if you're making other real vampires rather than vampire spawn - in fact the limit doubles with each generation. Theoretically, your controlled minion train can be infinitely long, and that's hugely powerful. So you get a stupidly high LA to counter that, but it's not enough to cope with unlimited amounts of minions. However, it is high enough to restrict your skills, BAB, hp, magic, etc, so much that the only thing you can really do effectively, is exploit the minion train. You get a high LA to inadequately compensate for abusing one ability, and are consequently forced to abuse that ability for lack of other options. It just doesn't work. Remove the spawn ability from vampires entirely and that LA will still be substantial, but it could stand to come down a lot.
Asra 08-01-07, 04:27 PM	So shouldn't the many penalties they suffer at least lower the LA a bit? The sunlight, running water and what-have-you?
RobbyPants 08-01-07, 04:49 PM	So shouldn't the many penalties they suffer at least lower the LA a bit? The sunlight, running water and what-have-you? It's not that hard for a clever vampire to get around these things. Remember that when asigning a LA to a race, WotC has to think of the wosrt case scenario (or the most abusable use). So, a lot of the weaknesses don't have to be: Sunlight - Stay indoors at daytime. A DM could rule that a Darkness spell (2nd level) would block out the sun's light (as prevailing light conditions are suspended). Use Dominated people to do your bidding. Wooden stake to the heart kills - Doesn't it do that to everybody? :P Cannot enter a dwelling without permission - Dominate someone into giving you permission. Cannot cross running water - I'm unsure if they can fly over as bats or not. If so, then your only real limit is how far you can fly before sun-up. Need coffins - This is one of the things WotC is sadly quite about. Can vampires have more than one coffin? In many stories, yes. If so, it's not that hard to plant coffins in convinient places. Anyway, you get the idea.
Asra 08-01-07, 05:00 PM	Ah-hah! I counter your claims of unimportant weaknesses! Sunlight: Ah but only devils can look through a darkness spell, so thats not very helpful except for buying some time. The indoors thing still remains, however. You could probably cast it above you though, but that really depends on your GM and how he treats magical darkness and light in D&D. Also sunlight spells! Wooden Stake to Heart: Actually, seeing as there are no concrete rules to staking a vampire in the heart without allowing called shots, I never saw the point of mentioning this in the Monster Manual. Cannot Enter a Building without permission: That usually only happens if someone is within view, otherwise you're stuck waiting for someone to go outside. Though some GMs can be relatively evil when it comes to dwellings and allowing you in. Cannot Cross Running Water: Ah but you are not even allowed to take a bridge over running water unless the bridge is something like a mile high. This is actually an ingenious way to trap a vampire too, though. But it probably doesn't affect pcs that much, since you can always go into a coffin and have goons carry you across the bridge. Coffin: This is up in the air. If you can only have one coffin its more of an issue than if you can have ten or twelve coffins scattered about.
Llathos 08-01-07, 05:05 PM	Well Llathos, The Cleric in the party could easily turn the vampire. Sure it has a +2 turn res, but all that means is that he has to get a HD of 3, or 6 result to kill the vampire out right. Actually, the turn resistance is +4. That means the cleric needs to have 10 levels to destroy him. Also, your example doesn't scale. If my vampire was lvl 3 monk, it's still only CR 5 by the book, requiring a level 14 cleric to destroy. It's hardly an easy task. I still contend that the combination makes no sense. A level 3 monk vampire can't possibly be a CR 5 creature...
BW0222 08-01-07, 05:11 PM	RazielK, Vampires are well worth their LA. As a playable race, they could easily dominate a table. * Level drain (two negative levels) * Con drain * Dominate (at will) * Undead immunities * Alternate form. * DR 10/silver and magic. * Fast healing 5 * Gaseous form * +18 on their ability scores * 5 bonus feats Honestly, a PC vampire played intelligently, is virtually immortal. Few monsters have magical silvered weapons, oil, holy water, etc. If you run low on hit points, float away and regenerate to full health within minutes. You could have a spawn army in a few days in a village. You could dominate the mayor of the village into giving you his savings. etc., etc. Llathos Maybe someone can clear up this section of the rules for me. LA and CR are often not the same. The CR represents how powerful a creature is in combat. LA represents how powerful a creature is as a player character. It may include many abilities which aren't that useful in combat, yet which help the player in non-combat encounters. For example, a smart PC pixie (+4 LA) can use her abilities in ways which an NPC pixie encounter can't do without increasing the ECL of the encounter. A pixie PC could fly around a market place and gain thousands of gold in small items in a few minutes and turn that into scrolls, potions, or wands. Nothing really to stop her. However, if an NPC pixie did that, you would have to increase her ECL -- since she is armed with more treasure than her CR factors in. A pixie PC could move down a hallway, yell some insults at a troll and lead him into a room with some shadows. If an NPC pixie encounter did this to the PCs, the DM would likely include both the pixies and shadows CRs into the ECL of the encounter. In other words... CR assumes that NPCs are in a straight up fight without any abilities to pre-use their abilities to gain any benefits -- if they did, you'd have to increase the ECL of the combat. The LA assumes that PCs can (and will) do these sorts of things and accounts for the fact that they will have used these abilties outside of combat. In general, a creature's CR is equal to their ECL. A 1st level fighter is a CR of 1, for example. So how is it that a first level monk vampire is considered an ECL of 9 but a CR of 3?! The entry states that CR is as base class +2. Again, the 1st-level PC vampire monk, is assumed to use his abilities outside of combat to his benefit. You be that he has found a way to make money, to have a secured coffin, to bring a few magical items perfectly designed for him, has used his dominate abilities to sucker some idiot into providing him a map of the place, has scouted the area as a bat, etc. The monk NPC encountered in the dungeon hasn't. Really? A 3?! I guarantee you that a party of 4 level 3 players cannot handle a level 1 monk vampire and consume only 25% of their resources. It simply isn't happening. Chances are they won't even make it past the DR enough to keep up with fast healing. A first level monk vampire has 6hp. One vial of holy water, two flasks of oil, one magic missile spell, an acid arrow, one good turn attempt, etc. and it is gone in the first round. It isn't that difficult. However, the ECL can be adjusted up or down based on any situation factor. If the PCs are likely to be surprised (say if it appeared in wolf form), you might adjust the ECL up. If the vampire had a really defensible position (say using spider climb and dropping stones on the party from a ledge) you can increase the ECL also. In such cases, it is likely the vampire will inflict significant loses prior to the PCs realizing that fire, magic, or holy water is needed. So what am I missing here? PCs are smarter than bad guys. They do thinks with their abilities which NPCs aren't permitted to do -- without increasing the ECL of the encounter.
IdleAltruism 08-01-07, 05:14 PM	Vampires have to be at least 5th level, otherwise they are just spawn. So to destroy them you'd have to be at least 18th level or so(well turning that is). Parties start fighting vampires at about 7th level+ this is when they have the ability to combat most of the vampires abilities.
Sul_Zain_Aserbet 08-01-07, 05:15 PM	the LA is probably high to prevent DnD from becoming the Mascarade; a world filled with depressed, melodramatic, racist vampires. High LA keeps vampies as BBEGs under the DM's thumb. Thats probably the reason. That, and whole mechanic thing :D
Horus_Sungod 08-01-07, 09:28 PM	Really? A 3?! I guarantee you that a party of 4 level 3 players cannot handle a level 1 monk vampire and consume only 25% of their resources. It simply isn't happening. Chances are they won't even make it past the DR enough to keep up with fast healing. So what am I missing here? The vampire having 12hp is pretty annoying. A few searing rays and it's over. But played intelligently, the vampire easily wins.
Omega_Grey 08-02-07, 08:04 AM	I have actually played a vampire once and I will say that as huge as their LA is it is actually fairly balanced. All of the combat encounters that I was in were fairly difficult for the time, but after words I quickly recovered most of my spent resources (mainly hp). I was a male human vampire, Ranger 1/Fighter4/Blackguard 3 by the end of the campaign and my fight with the duo of deva's will be long remembered by me. So I guess what I am trying to reinforce is that it didnt feel broken to me, granted the LA +8 really hurt on paper but in actual play it wasnt that bad. I could probably see it being lowered some, but since there were some things that I didnt exploit (like the minion train) it could probably stay were it is no problem.
RobbyPants 08-02-07, 10:17 AM	Sunlight: Ah but only devils can look through a darkness spell, so thats not very helpful except for buying some time. The indoors thing still remains, however. You could probably cast it above you though, but that really depends on your GM and how he treats magical darkness and light in D&D. Also sunlight spells! That's 3.0 Darkness. 3.5 Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm) merely creates shadowy illumination. Basically, picture being in a large room full of lights, with one out in the middle. It is hard to see what's going on in the dark spot (either from within or outside), and the creatures inside get partial concealment. However, it does not block light from passing through. You can see outside of the area just fine, either from within, without, or even looking entirely through. Nothing in the spell's description hints that it blocks light or blinds those there-in. Thus, you could cast it on yourself and see just fine. Wooden Stake to Heart: Actually, seeing as there are no concrete rules to staking a vampire in the heart without allowing called shots, I never saw the point of mentioning this in the Monster Manual. Yeah, the MM's kind of silent on this one. I've always pictured it as a Coup De Grace (like if you catch them in their coffin sleeping). And, of course, anyone (well, most anyone :P) is vulnerable to a CDG. Cannot Enter a Building without permission: That usually only happens if someone is within view, otherwise you're stuck waiting for someone to go outside. Though some GMs can be relatively evil when it comes to dwellings and allowing you in. It's highly circumstantial. You might go forever with no answer. However, if the people aren't expecting a vampire, 99% of the time, you can simply knock on the door to at least get them to approach. The trick is getting eye contact (open window, partially open door, fully open door, etc...) Cannot Cross Running Water: Ah but you are not even allowed to take a bridge over running water unless the bridge is something like a mile high. This is actually an ingenious way to trap a vampire too, though. But it probably doesn't affect pcs that much, since you can always go into a coffin and have goons carry you across the bridge. Where does it say that? I haven't seen anything in the MM suggesting that you need to be a mile above it. This is another thing the MM is somewhat silent on, that has always bothered me. Coffin: This is up in the air. If you can only have one coffin its more of an issue than if you can have ten or twelve coffins scattered about. Yep. One of many reasons why I just made my own template, to clear up all these issues! ;) Well, as we both know, a lot of these are very circumstantial. It all depends on the DM and the cleverness of the vampire. I guess the limitations can be a fail-safe way for the DM to make the vampire fail.
Stormbrand 08-02-07, 01:55 PM	The issue with vampire LA is that most of their abilities are unlimited. In a stand-up fight with a monster, this is less important. For a PC, limitless resources is a nightmare. Undead Immunities - always up. Energy Drain - At will/once per round with unarmed attacks (stronger than Enervation, 4th level spell). Gaseous Form - At will (3rd level spell). Alternate Form - At will (equivalent to wild shape). Damage Reduction - Always active (equivalent to Stoneskin, 4th+ level spell). Fast Healing - Always active, unlimited access to healing (broken for a PC by itself!). Domination - At will (5th level spell). So these are all unlimited resources for the vampire. Fast healing means that a vampire can fight by attrition by attacking, retreating in gaseous form, regenerating, and returning. Rinse and repeat. Domination at will makes Diplomacy and Intimidate obselete. Gaseous Form makes it easy to bypass most obstacles. By the way, Alternate Form includes Dire Wolf, with a base STR of 25, add the +6 from vampire and we have a form with STR 31. Puts druid out of business. So the vampire template naturally outperforms a 10th level Sorcerer.
Omega_Grey 08-02-07, 02:43 PM	I'm not so sure that the vampire template adds its physical stat adjustments to the alternate form stats. I could be wrong, but I was always under the impression that you assumed all the stats of the new form. Also it is far from 'putting the druid out of business.' The druid still has plenty of other forms to choose from (elementals being a few potent ones) and they can cast some great spells. But I digress, I agree with fast healing being over powered, I think they could have just limited it to healing when you imbue negative levels and when you successfully drain blood.
RazielK 08-09-07, 05:48 PM	IN regards to their Constitution score (or lack thereof) do Vamps use anything for bonus HD? What about using it for making saves? (I.E. the Red Dragon Bloodline breath weapon which is 10+half HD+Con Mod)
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-09-07, 06:04 PM	IN regards to their Constitution score (or lack thereof) do Vamps use anything for bonus HD? What about using it for making saves? (I.E. the Red Dragon Bloodline breath weapon which is 10+half HD+Con Mod) Undead don't get bonus hitdice from Constitution, nor from any other ability score, it's plain d12s all the way. (You can augment that with feats though -- Improved Toughness is handy for undead that need to take a beating.) Any special ability based on Constitution simply doesn't work when undead try to use it. Undead usually don't have to make Fortitude saves, they're immune to anything that requires one except for things that also effect objects (notably Disintegrate) or is harmless. When they do need to make a Fortitude, they use their Con mod on it, which for a nonability is +0.
Stormbrand 08-09-07, 06:18 PM	I'm not so sure that the vampire template adds its physical stat adjustments to the alternate form stats. I could be wrong, but I was always under the impression that you assumed all the stats of the new form. Also it is far from 'putting the druid out of business.' The druid still has plenty of other forms to choose from (elementals being a few potent ones) and they can cast some great spells. My understanding was that the new form retained the same templates. *Shrug* As for my comment about the druid, I was assuming that the druid in question is less than 16th level (first elemental wild shape), and vampire alternate form effectively matches the shapechanging capacity of all but the most high level druids. Besides, there is a small flying creature and a big combat creature, which are the main uses of wild shape in my view. Of course a high level druid could mince a vampire, so could a high-level most things.
RazielK 08-09-07, 06:57 PM	Undead don't get bonus hitdice from Constitution, nor from any other ability score, it's plain d12s all the way. (You can augment that with feats though -- Improved Toughness is handy for undead that need to take a beating.) Any special ability based on Constitution simply doesn't work when undead try to use it. Undead usually don't have to make Fortitude saves, they're immune to anything that requires one except for things that also effect objects (notably Disintegrate) or is harmless. When they do need to make a Fortitude, they use their Con mod on it, which for a nonability is +0. So the Breath Weapon thing doesn't work? What if a Vampire Lord were to use it? It says they add Charisma to their saves and stuff, would it apply here? Coulda swore I read somewhere that Undead use Cha instead of Con for setting DCs but not for extra HP.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-09-07, 07:30 PM	Ignore that part. I was thinking of a similar rule for a construct template for for creatures, not undead. *points to first line of his sig* :blush:
RazielK 08-10-07, 12:35 PM	Chill dude. I read your sig, not a problem. But, I was right though? (Just checking to make sure)
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-10-07, 06:34 PM	I haven't seen a blanket ruling that covers all undead and all Con-based abilities they can get, actually. Extrapolating from the way dracolich breath weapons work, and effigy (construct) creatures keep and lose their abilities, I'm thinking it's Supernatural Con-based abilities shift to being keyed to Cha, and, Extraordinary Con-based abilities are lost altogether. That's just a guess, though.
RazielK 08-10-07, 11:31 PM	Is there a way we can find out?
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-11-07, 04:31 AM	Look for the ask a simple question, get a simple answer thread at the Character Optimization board, and ask there. Those folks tend to go through the rulebooks with a fine-toothed comb and learn things the average player doesn't know.
kyros_the_spawnslayer 08-14-07, 01:27 AM	Undead don't get bonus hitdice from Constitution, nor from any other ability score, it's plain d12s all the way. Now just to make sure, that applies to class HD too, cause I am about ready to run a classing vamp vs. lycan game, was the only way my bro would still play, and wanted to make sure because thought they have no Con a d12 is a great improvement over a d4.
Beowulf8989 08-14-07, 02:28 AM	Coincidently, I've been playing a Vampire Monk. I'll answer what I can. Yes, vampires always use d12s regardless of pc levels. Which seems overly-awesome at first. Until you roll that first 1 on your d12... it can really hurt with no con bonus. First level is awesome though. Undead use their charisma whenever they have to roll con despite their undead status.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-14-07, 02:38 AM	Yeah, it does apply to class hitdice too, but it's not that big a deal. 1d12 averages out to 6.5. So does 1d10+1. So does 1d8+2. So does 1d6+3. So does 1d4+4. So you're essentially getting the same hp per hitdie on average as a barbarian with Con 10, a fighter with Con 12, a cleric with Con 14, a rogue with Con 16, or a wizard with Con 18 -- and as was noted before, your low-roll insurance is nonexistant. I like undead a lot but as far as hp go, I'd rather play my old living dwarf wizard with Con 20 (15 hp at 2nd level after rolling a 1 on the HD :D) than an undead wizard.
RazielK 08-14-07, 02:57 AM	Unless it is an ability gained outside of being a vamp.
Ace_of_time 08-14-07, 03:10 AM	It's not that hard for a clever vampire to get around these things. Remember that when asigning a LA to a race, WotC has to think of the wosrt case scenario (or the most abusable use). So, a lot of the weaknesses don't have to be: Sunlight - Stay indoors at daytime. A DM could rule that a Darkness spell (2nd level) would block out the sun's light (as prevailing light conditions are suspended). Use Dominated people to do your bidding. Wooden stake to the heart kills - Doesn't it do that to everybody? :P Cannot enter a dwelling without permission - Dominate someone into giving you permission. Cannot cross running water - I'm unsure if they can fly over as bats or not. If so, then your only real limit is how far you can fly before sun-up. Need coffins - This is one of the things WotC is sadly quite about. Can vampires have more than one coffin? In many stories, yes. If so, it's not that hard to plant coffins in convinient places. Anyway, you get the idea. I don't know if this has been posted but wooden stake to the heart doesn't kill the vamp just Immobilizes it. Note: Dragon Vamps are only +5.
speed6620 08-14-07, 03:30 PM	Maybe someone can clear up this section of the rules for me. Call me crazy, but I thought a player's ECL was their LA + class HD. For example, a 3rd level monk vampire is ECL 11. That's 3 monk + 8 LA = 11 ECL. In general, a creature's CR is equal to their ECL. A 1st level fighter is a CR of 1, for example. So how is it that a first level monk vampire is considered an ECL of 9 but a CR of 3?! The entry states that CR is as base class +2. Really? A 3?! I guarantee you that a party of 4 level 3 players cannot handle a level 1 monk vampire and consume only 25% of their resources. It simply isn't happening. Chances are they won't even make it past the DR enough to keep up with fast healing. So what am I missing here? If you are a stickler to the rules(I am not by the way) then anything under five HD that are a vampire are turned into vampire spawn a CR 4 monster and has level progression in the Libris Mortis. True vampires must have a least 5 HD and the vampire template is an acquired template which means you must be bitten by a vampire to become one or turned into one through ritual or curse. Another way to handle this would be to use an inherited template for vampirism, you know a vampire that is born a vampire (e.g. the Blade trilogy trueblood vampires). Then you could take the template abilities and traits through template class levels which can be broken apart by the player or DM to keep it balanced. Also with the template class you can take other classes in between and pick the template class back up as you wish or as your DM sees fit. The wizards archive has a few articles on making template classes under the archive of Savage Progressions. Also you could have the Vampire Spawn class evolve into the full Vampire status through a few additional template levels, say two, to gain full benefits of being a vampire.
speed6620 08-14-07, 03:39 PM	IN regards to their Constitution score (or lack thereof) do Vamps use anything for bonus HD? What about using it for making saves? (I.E. the Red Dragon Bloodline breath weapon which is 10+half HD+Con Mod) The Draconomicon has a Vampire Dragon template and sample vampire dragon in the monster list. It is undead and has no Con modifier either so I would look at that template to find the answer for the breath weapon. I will look it up and hopefully get back to you soon about it.
speed6620 08-14-07, 03:44 PM	Also undead have no Fort save and therefore are immune to most things that require a Fort save. The Monsters Manuel goes into detail about the few exceptions to that rule in depth. Undead can use toughness, improved toughness, and some undead monsters have unholy toughness which you use the Charisma modifier for hit points instead of a Con modifier. Very powerful for undead monsters. That would be very good for character but would probably carry a heavy plus to level adjustment too.
Ace_of_time 08-14-07, 03:54 PM	IN regards to their Constitution score (or lack thereof) do Vamps use anything for bonus HD? What about using it for making saves? (I.E. the Red Dragon Bloodline breath weapon which is 10+half HD+Con Mod) dragon Vamps get extra HPs per Age cat I think. Still +5. Reg vamp is +8 right? Also they use their Cha mod to replace Con mod for those thing. But not on HD.
kyros_the_spawnslayer 08-14-07, 10:19 PM	Also to add, is the Lifedrinker class still usable (updating it slighlty though) or is it broken?
ToastedAmphibian 08-14-07, 10:54 PM	Hmm, half-dragon Kobold Vampire... that would be a creepy little....
RazielK 08-15-07, 12:17 AM	Also to add, is the Lifedrinker class still usable (updating it slighlty though) or is it broken? Don't think it is broken...
danielinthewolvesden 08-15-07, 02:07 PM	Well, see Vampires are cruddy PC's. Any encounter which will challenge the adventuring group the Vamp is part of will either be a complete walk-over for the Vamp, or be impossible/instantkill. How is that fun? It'd be like this encounter chart: 1-80: Sickly commoner 81-100: The Tarrasque. :rimshot:
RazielK 08-15-07, 04:33 PM	Some people like playing vamps. Like me.
Ace_of_time 08-15-07, 04:52 PM	Hmm, half-dragon Kobold Vampire... that would be a creepy little....you could go DW Kobold Dragon vamp.
Ace_of_time 08-15-07, 04:58 PM	Well, see Vampires are cruddy PC's. Any encounter which will challenge the adventuring group the Vamp is part of will either be a complete walk-over for the Vamp, or be impossible/instantkill. How is that fun? It'd be like this encounter chart: 1-80: Sickly commoner 81-100: The Tarrasque. :rimshot: I think that would depend on who plays it. My group played 3 people in a undead party 1 elf vamp/ 7wizard, Bleakborn, Kobold lich 7 sorc/ 4fighter with PS feat. And had no problem At all.
Satanoth 08-19-07, 04:56 PM	I been wandering that too, i am a Veteran of DnD (been playing for 15 years) and has seen how they change the game rules tree times (1st, 2nd, advanced 2nd and 3rt editions) and in 3rd edition the vampire's LA was +5, it was a considerable adjustment to their abilities/qualities and powerful weaknesses. to prove this you can go to the sourcebook Savage Species in the Chapter 2: Building Monsters that they said to you how they came up with the level adjustments based on abilities for the template such as energy drain, elemental resistances and blood drain or other ability score drain/damage. Even my 8 players feels that the LA of the vampire is too high but you can use variant rules to adjust the vampire template, look for a book called: The Immortal: Vampires that is the perfect source for vampire PCs and gothic campaigns, it contains dozens of new variant rules for creating vampires and roleplaying such characters with feeding habits, methods of creations, and even more weaknesses to gain unholy toughness(Cha bonus to hp) control Weather as a special Racial Feat and such goodies, histories of the curse of the undead and even characters like Carmilla, Dracula, and other notable vampires from literature and methods to apply them and creating them. yeah i had run dozens of campaigns that feature vampires and(or) other undeads. My Current Party is: lv 5 Warblade elf vampire, lv7 Swordsage human ghoul, lv 9 Barbarian elf werewolf, lv 12 human Blackguard, lv 8 human lich necromancer, lv 12 human cleric of Nerull, lv 11 ranger half-vampire elf and a lv 4 wight rogue.
Ace_of_time 08-19-07, 05:01 PM	Dragon vamps have half the weeknesses and all their abilities and still a +5. Never understand that at all.
UnsounderGnome 08-19-07, 06:02 PM	it could stand to be lowered 1 or 2 probably.
speed6620 08-21-07, 12:13 PM	IN regards to their Constitution score (or lack thereof) do Vamps use anything for bonus HD? What about using it for making saves? (I.E. the Red Dragon Bloodline breath weapon which is 10+half HD+Con Mod) The vampire dragon in the draconomicon use Cha for its breath weapon instead of con.
speed6620 08-21-07, 12:16 PM	I been wandering that too, i am a Veteran of DnD (been playing for 15 years) and has seen how they change the game rules tree times (1st, 2nd, advanced 2nd and 3rt editions) and in 3rd edition the vampire's LA was +5, it was a considerable adjustment to their abilities/qualities and powerful weaknesses. to prove this you can go to the sourcebook Savage Species in the Chapter 2: Building Monsters that they said to you how they came up with the level adjustments based on abilities for the template such as energy drain, elemental resistances and blood drain or other ability score drain/damage. Even my 8 players feels that the LA of the vampire is too high but you can use variant rules to adjust the vampire template, look for a book called: The Immortal: Vampires that is the perfect source for vampire PCs and gothic campaigns, it contains dozens of new variant rules for creating vampires and roleplaying such characters with feeding habits, methods of creations, and even more weaknesses to gain unholy toughness(Cha bonus to hp) control Weather as a special Racial Feat and such goodies, histories of the curse of the undead and even characters like Carmilla, Dracula, and other notable vampires from literature and methods to apply them and creating them. yeah i had run dozens of campaigns that feature vampires and(or) other undeads. My Current Party is: lv 5 Warblade elf vampire, lv7 Swordsage human ghoul, lv 9 Barbarian elf werewolf, lv 12 human Blackguard, lv 8 human lich necromancer, lv 12 human cleric of Nerull, lv 11 ranger half-vampire elf and a lv 4 wight rogue. Is there anway to fly over moving water?
speed6620 08-21-07, 12:17 PM	I been wandering that too, i am a Veteran of DnD (been playing for 15 years) and has seen how they change the game rules tree times (1st, 2nd, advanced 2nd and 3rt editions) and in 3rd edition the vampire's LA was +5, it was a considerable adjustment to their abilities/qualities and powerful weaknesses. to prove this you can go to the sourcebook Savage Species in the Chapter 2: Building Monsters that they said to you how they came up with the level adjustments based on abilities for the template such as energy drain, elemental resistances and blood drain or other ability score drain/damage. Even my 8 players feels that the LA of the vampire is too high but you can use variant rules to adjust the vampire template, look for a book called: The Immortal: Vampires that is the perfect source for vampire PCs and gothic campaigns, it contains dozens of new variant rules for creating vampires and roleplaying such characters with feeding habits, methods of creations, and even more weaknesses to gain unholy toughness(Cha bonus to hp) control Weather as a special Racial Feat and such goodies, histories of the curse of the undead and even characters like Carmilla, Dracula, and other notable vampires from literature and methods to apply them and creating them. yeah i had run dozens of campaigns that feature vampires and(or) other undeads. My Current Party is: lv 5 Warblade elf vampire, lv7 Swordsage human ghoul, lv 9 Barbarian elf werewolf, lv 12 human Blackguard, lv 8 human lich necromancer, lv 12 human cleric of Nerull, lv 11 ranger half-vampire elf and a lv 4 wight rogue. Is there anway to fly over moving water with a vampire or do you have to be carried across?
Grumman 08-21-07, 12:36 PM	Dragon vamps have half the weeknesses and all their abilities and still a +5. Never understand that at all. A dragon already has a large LA, in addition to the template, and already is going to have D12 hit points per HD. So a dragon would get less out of being a vampire, and would end up with a total LA above 10.
1 ton ghost 08-21-07, 12:43 PM	this is all good and well, but traditionally, aren't you supposed to hand in your chrctr sht to the DM upon "transition"? not too many can accurately portray CE align, and even then, the needs/wants of a vampire per WotC's rules pretty much slag party mechanics. it's just a major conflict of interests and you kinda' gotta' be a team player unless it's an evil campaign to which i'm often game, no arguements there, but you need to consider the other players, you know? perhaps a lesser variety given LA and all. i mean, it worked for drow, genasi, etc. it's a big iconic persona everyone wants to play, but typically, alot of the drawbacks outweigh the benefits and ultimately make for alot of extra busy work for your party...assuming you don't kill them which you probably would given past relationships, known weaknesses, inescapable cravings, etc. assuming you say, "screw it, let's go." some of the weaknesses can be overcome relatively easilly though: -Sunlight can/should be countered w/ Darkness and perhaps a follow up Ebon Eyes to navigate accordingly. think there were goggles that might help to. perhaps Libris Mortis. or...you can stay in doors, live in the polar north, get an SPF 2000, something. -the "invite dilemma"; can you circumnavigate this w/ Dominate Person? i thought part of the predator/prey relationship was that a degree of free will was involved, kinda' perpetuating the supernatural self-destruction mystery. not sure if you can/should just dominate your way in. Bluff? -running water; can't you just turn into a bat and fly well over it? -caskets; get more than one. put them in deep fissures, Stone Shape all but tiny cracks to access, glyph/trap/etc., watch dogs, etc. kill the ppl that help construct it, etc. dead men tell no tales, bla bla bla -Turning/racial weakness; said it before, say it again...Disguise. you MUST employ this for necropolitans, you'd think it would be easier for vampires. if they don't Spot you as undead, they will not consider a Turn/Rebuke. of course, if they're using Detect Undead, you've already screwed up and deserve the stake sandwich none of the likely homebrews are gonna' work real well IMO. someone will either over/underpower them given personal bias. ideally, you shouldn't play them, but whatever. a system or provision should be made but w/ the advent of 4th ed., it's not coming any time soon i'm sure. there should be other kinds of vamps as well. Dragon's halloween issue had a few types and perhaps some liberties could be taken to diversify them ala White Wolf given the clans and their signature powers/traits. i mean the casket D&D concept makes them very Tzimisce. could some earth meld? perhaps some are more cerebral and less physical. more options, more better.
Ace_of_time 08-21-07, 06:19 PM	A dragon already has a large LA, in addition to the template, and already is going to have D12 hit points per HD. So a dragon would get less out of being a vampire, and would end up with a total LA above 10. Dragon gets Extra HP for become one. (4 times HD) Also gains charm, but not all the weaknesses. Can sirvive direct sunlight a number of rounds = to it's age cat. Not injure in water. Not repelled by garlic and mirrors. Can freely go through running water. And if some will not let them in their home they can just blow it up and be done with it. And they still get All the rest of the vamp abilities with these. Still +5.
Hebitsuikaza 08-21-07, 06:40 PM	I would argue that if it is even remotely tempting to play a Vampire, their LA isn't nearly high enough. Either that or the DM really isn't slapping you around with the drawbacks of having to scour the city every night for victims and kill them without getting caught, having to avoid the sun or die a horrible, horrible death and having every random hero armed with stakes and crosses aiming to kill you. If after all that, if you are still looking at the vampire and saying "woohoo! Kick ass powers!!" well then... no, the LA is not nearly high enough. Your reaction do becoming a vampire should be identical to your reaction of getting hit with a loss of 8 permanent Constitution from a disease. Which is probably to open the PHB and asks, "What class should I play this time?"
Ace_of_time 08-21-07, 06:46 PM	I would argue that if it is even remotely tempting to play a Vampire, their LA isn't nearly high enough. Either that or the DM really isn't slapping you around with the drawbacks of having to scour the city every night for victims and kill them without getting caught, having to avoid the sun or die a horrible, horrible death and having every random hero armed with stakes and crosses aiming to kill you. If after all that, if you are still looking at the vampire and saying "woohoo! Kick ass powers!!" well then... no, the LA is not nearly high enough. Your reaction do becoming a vampire should be identical to your reaction of getting hit with a loss of 8 permanent Constitution from a disease. Which is probably to open the PHB and asks, "What class should I play this time?" Smart ones don't kill their victims unless they want spawn. just feed.
Hebitsuikaza 08-21-07, 09:24 PM	Smart ones don't kill their victims unless they want spawn. just feed. Well... If leaving behind witnesses to a crime is "smart"... then... I suppose so.
Ace_of_time 08-22-07, 02:40 AM	Well... If leaving behind witnesses to a crime is "smart"... then... I suppose so. That's why they have dominate for.
zeratulcraft 08-22-07, 03:28 AM	And weapons. Drain to point of death, stab to finish.
1337Ninja 08-22-07, 03:41 AM	Personally, I DMed a campaign with a vampire PC, and it was fine. It was a touch screwy early on, but then things eased out and he became a memorable, balanced PC. The Deck of Many Things (I know, but it was my first proper campaign) swapped his alignment to LG, which later changed to NG. He was a fighter/barbarian with an optimized AC (damn 55 at level 17). He bought lots of the oil from Libris Mortis that makes you immune to daylight, carried around a lot of bloody meat, and tanked it fairly normally. By that point, the fast healing meant free healing between encounters, but not that much in them, and the DR wasn't all that bad, and he was killed in one round by a TWF swordsage, so it can't be that broken. Admittedly, I had a pretty wierd bunch of PCs, including a lich bard/pyromancer, a half-dragon voidmind blackguard and a rogue/shadowdancer with about +90 on hide and move silently, but hey. My point is that he was neither over- nor under-powered, and was a fun PC to DM for.
Hebitsuikaza 08-22-07, 08:49 PM	The Deck of Many Things (I know, but it was my first proper campaign) swapped his alignment to LG, which later changed to NG. He was a fighter/barbarian with an optimized AC (damn 55 at level 17). He bought lots of the oil from Libris Mortis that makes you immune to daylight, carried around a lot of bloody meat, and tanked it fairly normally. By that point, the fast healing meant free healing between encounters, but not that much in them, and the DR wasn't all that bad, and he was killed in one round by a TWF swordsage, so it can't be that broken. In other words you effectively eliminated every single drawback about being a vampire in very short order and used it as a random, over-the-top powerful set of powers. And that random set of powers turned out to be rather broken without having to deal with any of the drawbacks.
LeuktheSavior 08-22-07, 09:04 PM	Vamp template as is is horrible. Im making a savage species progression of a vampire template made by robbypants here on the boards that in my opinion is a hell of a lot better.
RobbyPants 08-23-07, 10:01 AM	Vamp template as is is horrible. Im making a savage species progression of a vampire template made by robbypants here on the boards that in my opinion is a hell of a lot better. Thanks! :D To be honest, my favorite part of the template I made isn't even the scaling powers or some of the new ones; it's that I took the time to fill in some gaps. What happens if they don't eat? What happens if they don't sleep in their coffins (or rather, soil, in my template)? I haven't put anything on paper (or the computer :P) for my next version, but I wanted to do something similar (as outlined in my thread). The idea was to make a LA +0 vampire that wouldn't be undead, but rather a new type. By dropping out most of the standard undead immunities, I think I can pull the LA down. Then, you can take levels of vampire (similar to a SS progression) to gain powers. Hopefully, that will fix the vampire LA problem. If I ever get the time to write it up, I'll post it. ;)
RazielK 08-23-07, 02:55 PM	Do you think they will change/revise the Vampire on the whole with 4e?
RobbyPants 08-23-07, 03:13 PM	Do you think they will change/revise the Vampire on the whole with 4e? I'm almost 100% certain of it. I have no idea how templates will work. I know that races are supposed to gain power with levels (similar to a SS progression). I find this concept funny. The way they're handling LA problems is by making them all into full 20 (or is it 30, now) level progressions and by giving the base races more powers, to effectively raise their "LA". It seems kind of like: "Oh, the LA +2 drow is too prohibitive? How about we make humans and elves and dwarves LA +2 to balance it out?" :P
Mojo_Rat 08-23-07, 06:09 PM	Some of those questions are answered in Libris Mortis. I know what happens if they dont eat is. I believe they star geting stat damage of some sort until they feed. It has been a while since I read it. Really i dont personally see anything wrong witht he Vampire template. It has alot of great vampire thematics in it and makes for good NPC bad guys. It just never struck me as really beeing that intended for Pcs.