Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thefishcometh 02-23-08, 04:06 PM	This is a race I have produced for my extensive Asian (specifically Japanese) themed campaign. And no, I don't like anime a whole lot and I think pirates are cooler than ninjas. I REFUSE to argue on those points, however. Anyhow, I need some feedback on the balance of this race. There are a few references that are specific to our campaign, specifically Shaman=Druid and Shugenja=Spirit Shaman. I am also looking for fixes to Half-Orcs and Orcs if anyone wants to help me with that one, as they are both incredibly under-powered which I think is a shame. I am also working on Lizardfolk with no Racial HD or a LA, so help with that would be great too. Anyhow, here it is! ITACHI The Itachi are a race of wild anthropomorphic weasels. Itachi, or weaselfolk as they are sometimes called, are curious and tricky, with quick reflexes and great cunning. They occupy many forests, woodlands and other wild areas, living nomadic lives in small family groups. They are incredible hunters and trackers, as well as vicious fighters, and are highly valued as mercenary scouts in the armies of other races. Personality: Weaselfolk are devious and cunning, and love to play tricks on others. They are a usually friendly people, but possess a predatory nature that is somewhat off-putting to many non-Itachi. Itachi are quite rash and prone to make foolish decisions against better judgment, much to the amusement of their friends and peers. The complex honor systems of humans and dwarves mean nothing to the Itachi, and they instead follow their own instinct with little regard for the consequences of their actions. Physical Description: Itachi look like a cross between a human and a great weasel. Standing over 6 feet high, Itachi have incredibly long necks and bodies. At the top of their lanky body is the head of a weasel. They are very slim and have arms and legs that appear a little too short for their height. Their ankles are situated such that they appear to have knees that bend backwards, like most mammals. They possess a long, bushy tail that sways when they walk and helps to balance them when they are climbing. Weaselfolk are entirely covered in fur with colors ranging from red to black to white and even a blue-gray. Their eyes show a wild intelligence, and their mouths are filled with razor-sharp teeth. Itachi are incredibly flexible and seem to flow and glide when they move. Relations: Itachi have strong relations with elves, who often share their territory. They frequently hire themselves out to human daimyo but most have no desire to become permanent residents in human society. Dwarves see the tricksy weaselfolk as wild and untrustworthy and Itachi see the Dwarves as stuck-up and a bit boring. They share the playfulness of gnomes and Halflings, but have little contact with the littler folk. They feel the most kindred with nezumi, who share their connection to the wild and their animal-like appearance. Alignment: Itachi are highly chaotic, and tend to neutrality more than good or evil. Itachi disdain rules they regard as unnecessary and relish the freedom of life in the wild. They have little respect for authority, except for their tribal elders, and see others as their equals. They are still primarily focused on their own well being, however, and are therefore usually neutral. Itachi Lands: Itachi have no real lands of their own and instead regard all of the wilderness as theirs. They have little sense of land as property and are confused by the need for permanent territory the civilized races have. Instead, Itachi occupy any land that can support them and Itachi bands are more likely to meet peacefully and swap hunting grounds than to fight over them. Religion: Itachi worship nature and have no specific divine patron. Each tribe usually has a patron kami and a number of shugenja that maintain contact with their ancestors, but almost all of the Itachi’s spiritual activity is through shamans. Language: The language of the weaselfolk is a chittering and purring speech. It is both lyrical and harsh, featuring both growls and purrs. It is difficult for other races to speak for long periods of time, but not as impossible as the language of the nezumi. Itachi have a gift for communication and tend to find other languages fascinating. Most Itachi punctuate their own language with words or sounds stolen from the tongues of their neighbors. Naming: Traditional Itachi names are taken from their surroundings. Children are named after things found in the habitat a given tribe has claimed, followed by a tribal identifier. Tribal names are instead based on body parts such as an arm or heart. Itachi in contact with other races also take names or words from other languages for their children, adding to their extensive creole. Male Names: Urrikoko (Limestone), Eerrurroik (Blackbark), Katikoko (Redstone), Inkurresteku (Flying Badger), Jurrurroik (Strongbark) Female Names: Inkurride (Flying Deer), Haruhisira (Peach Blossom), Katisusa (Redsky), Purruime (Greenwillow), Haruhiterk (Peachthorn) Tribal Names: su Jurrubaky (of the Strongarm), su Eerruissape (of the Blackfur), su Purrakikatu (of the Greentooth) Adventurers: Itachi are commonly adventurers. Sometimes the tribal life is not enough, and a weaselfolk has a desire to see the world. The tribes often encourage adventuring, as Itachi adventurers often return to their tribes with great wealth. The Itachi already get much work serving daimyo as scouts in war, and the step from that service to adventuring is a very short one. RACIAL TRAITS • +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. Itachi are incredibly nimble and flexible, but they make rash decisions and tend not to think things through. • Medium size. As medium-sized creatures, Itachi have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. • Itachi have a base land speed of 30 feet. • Climbing (Ex): Itachi are natural climbers but develop their abilities somewhat slowly. Itachi have a +4 racial bonus on Climb checks. When an Itachi reaches 3 HD, this bonus increases to +8. An Itachi with 5 HD gains a climb speed of 15 feet. All the rules for creatures with climb speeds apply to Itachi with 5 or more Hit Dice. • Low-light vision: An Itachi can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. • Itachi receive Track as a bonus feat at first level. • +2 racial bonus to Balance, Listen, Survival, and Spot checks. • Automatic Languages: Itachi and a language of the characters choosing. Bonus Languages: Any. Itachi have a gift for language and pick up new ones easily. • Favored class: Scout. A multiclass Itachi scout’s class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
Viktor_Von_Doom 02-23-08, 04:11 PM	Time till Naruto fans come screaming in in 5.... 4...... 3...... 2..... 1.....
Xiuhcoatl 02-23-08, 04:31 PM	Time till Naruto fans come screaming in in 5.... 4...... 3...... 2..... 1..... :rolleyes: I did assume this was a mis-placed build for Itachi Uchiha, but I am much pleased to see the word used in a totally different way. Bravo. Otherwise, mechanically, it looks pretty solid. Nothing over-the-top, which is good for LA +0.
thefishcometh 02-23-08, 04:45 PM	I did assume this was a mis-placed build for Itachi Uchiha, but I am much pleased to see the word used in a totally different way. Bravo. I honestly have no idea who that is. I just used the Japanese word for weasel. Maybe I should change the name of the thread, if possible...
Prime32 02-23-08, 05:07 PM	It's this guy: http://dhost.info/mrniceash/wp-content/Photos/Naruto%20CapShots/Itachi_Uchiha.JPG http://naruto-hinata.webcindario.com/capturas/Itachi.jpg I assumed this thread would be an attempt at a Sharingan bloodline (and a bad one, if the title was the name of one of its possessors). Say, you should do a scarecrow race while you're at it! :D
M-bark 02-23-08, 08:24 PM	It's really good. The climbing speed might make it just a tad too good for LA+0, but still, remarkable. Well done. Like the fluff. Also, I have to say that the title made me think of Uchiha Itachi first, too, but while the page was loading I remembered that "Itachi" is Japanese for "Weasel", so it obviously would be something concerning an antropoid animal-like race. I think you did that quite well. ;)
Hanzo187 02-24-08, 02:49 AM	If you didn't know, in Japan, weasals are considered a bad omen. That might be something you can use later. Overall, I think you've got a great race going, but with all the skill bonuses, the climb speed, and the bonus feat, it might be borderline LA +1. Probably not, but you never know. If the climb was 20 feet, I don't think the LA would be anything to worry about, but once again, I'm not great at racial balance. Nevertheless, this is a neat race.
ArochanoX 02-24-08, 03:37 AM	Because no rogue wouldn't choose this race, I say it's +1 LA. +2 dex that is covered with wisdom penalty is the first powerful aspect. Then the climb speed. It's just really too much for a la +0 creature. Climb speed is often considered +1 LA on its own. Also low-light vision, numerous skill bonuses and a bonus feat are just great but not terribly powerful, they still deliver the final punch for total la of +1.
sakuradm 02-24-08, 09:48 AM	lol i was kind of agrevated when i first saw this.... but once read i was quite interrested, at least you arent another narutard.. god do they annoy me! lol makes my ninjitsu studies look foolish.... (no my name is my real name people not forthe stupid anime... at any rate, i like how someone here has actually put the meanings of the names and such in, i like how you put the meaning of itachi as a race! VERY CREATIVE :D good for you!
StruckingFuggle 02-24-08, 01:37 PM	Because no rogue wouldn't choose this race, I say it's +1 LA. Really? I'd take a Whisper Gnome over this for a rogue almost any day. I would even have a tossup between Kobold and this - and I'd rather play a Kobold than a +1 LA Itachi. That said, I like this and would like to play one.
ArochanoX 02-24-08, 01:45 PM	Really? I'd take a Whisper Gnome over this for a rogue almost any day. I would even have a tossup between Kobold and this - and I'd rather play a Kobold than a +1 LA Itachi. That said, I like this and would like to play one. Comparing this to one of the most powerful and even overpowered race is stupid. Take for example catfolk (races of the wild) and compare it. Climb speed is powerful and the ability scores aren't balanced. I'd probably would give them total ability modifier of +4 dex, -2 wis and call it balanced LA +1. Or get rid of the climb speed and give them -2 Str instead of -2 Wis and call it LA +0.
StruckingFuggle 02-24-08, 03:49 PM	Comparing this to one of the most powerful and even overpowered race is stupid. ... >_> Well, if you want to even compare it to 1, it falls short against a Draconic Human (oh so sort), a Whisper Gnome even at +1 (even if it's +1, even for rogues), Draconic Kobold, arguably the Catfolk (which is kinda costly at LA +1), the Goliath (except for Rogues) ... oh, and there's also the Shadow-Walker template for +1 LA... All of which are better than a minorly "unbalanced" stat bump (for rogues, a climb speed (*unenthused* oooooh), lowlight vision, a few modest stat bumps, and a bonus feat that's rarely used (though your campaign mileage may vary), penalized by your racial ability modifiers, and won't be of much use to classes without Survival as a class skill (like, y'know, rogues). Op, don't get me wrong. I love the Itachi. I just don't see them as being a particularly overpowered race at their level. :) Climb speed is powerful Doesn't seem that powerful to me (and it seems awfully conditional when it'll matter, kinda like track)... What'm I missing?
thefishcometh 02-24-08, 04:10 PM	Ok, I think I may bump the climb speed down to 20 feet. I don't think having a climb speed is overpowering and track is a flavorful, and certainly not uber-powerful feat. Thanks for all the input, though!
ArochanoX 02-25-08, 01:13 AM	Well, if you want to even compare it to 1, it falls short against a Draconic Human (oh so sort), a Whisper Gnome even at +1 (even if it's +1, even for rogues), Draconic Kobold, arguably the Catfolk (which is kinda costly at LA +1), the Goliath (except for Rogues) ... oh, and there's also the Shadow-Walker template for +1 LA... Ok, now we can see that these weasel-folks aren't good enough for LA +1. Then we compare them to say PHB-races. I think itachi is superior to all the races in PHB (climb speed, numerous skill boosts, nice dexterity "covered" with wisdom penalty). So the weasel-folk is inbetween LA +0 and LA +1. The trend is to create nice and easy LA +0 races. So if you want LA +0 weasel here, drop the climb speed (give them some +4 to climb checks and ability to use dexterity instead of strenght for climbing. Also give them strenght penalty and get rid of the wisdom penalty. • +2 Dexterity, -2 Strenght. Itachi are incredibly nimble and flexible, but they make rash decisions and tend not to think things through. • Medium size. As medium-sized creatures, Itachi have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. • Itachi have a base land speed of 30 feet. • Low-light vision: An Itachi can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. • Itachi receive Track as a bonus feat at first level. • +2 racial bonus to Balance, Listen, Survival, and Spot checks, also +4 racial bonus on Climb checks. Also itachi may use dexterity instead of strenght for climb checks. • Automatic Languages: Itachi and a language of the characters choosing. Bonus Languages: Any. Itachi have a gift for language and pick up new ones easily. • Favored class: Scout. A multiclass Itachi scout’s class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
Captain_Kobold 02-25-08, 02:42 AM	Given their physical description, you might consider dropping their base speed down to 20ft, since their hind legs are short in relation to their body length. Also perhaps a bite attack, depending upon how large and weasel-like their heads are compared to human heads. Personally I'd drop the climb speed in exchange for a straight +4 to Climb, Balance and Escape artist. (Shouldn't be over the top: only climb is particularly commonly used.) What is the rationale behind the bonus Track feat. If they have scent like a true weasel, just give them scent and +1 LA. Otherwise, why would an Itachi Wizard, for example, learn to track?
thefishcometh 02-25-08, 11:11 PM	Well, I'll be honest. I hate races with a level adjustment. That's why I'm not giving them anything more. I'll look for another drawback in order to keep them balanced, I think the climb speed is pretty important. Given their physical description, you might consider dropping their base speed down to 20ft, since their hind legs are short in relation to their body length. Have you ever seen a weasel or ferret run? Those suckers are fast. Just because their limbs are short doesn't mean they're not speedy.
Captain_Kobold 02-26-08, 01:37 AM	Have you ever seen a weasel or ferret run? Those suckers are fast. Just because their limbs are short doesn't mean they're not speedy. Yep. But that way of running does not translate to a humanoid posture. Having a slinky instead of a spine and bounding along on all fours is a fast way of travelling, but once you restict them to an upright posture, you lose that advantage. Even when not bounding, a Weasel looks fast because its little legs are moving in a blur, but if you look at its actual open ground speed, its not actually travelling that qujickly. Its a similar principle to the climb speed: A normal weasel's strength-to-weight ratio is so massive that its little claws are capable of supporting it on most rough surfaces, just like rats and similar creatures. Once scaled up, this does not work so well. This does not by any means prevent you from giving the Itachi full speed and a climb speed. I was mostly making the suggestions because you appeared to be having trouble keeping the LA down. Once you add a climb speed, you need to find a way to penalise the race fairly significantly to keep it to LA 0, particularly with its somewhat uneven ability modifiers.
StruckingFuggle 02-26-08, 02:49 AM	Seriously, what makes a climb speed so darn good?
ArochanoX 02-26-08, 01:09 PM	Seriously, what makes a climb speed so darn good? Ability to get out of danger and ability to get to places where one shouldn't be. For example: 2 warriors are in a cave that is high enough to get out of each other's vertical reach without a problem. The other warrior has climb speed the other has not. The other warrior can climb at full climb speed in the cave without any penalty to AC. The other warrior can maybe charge the climbing creature once before it is out of reach. If the creature didn't have climb speed, he would suffer from significantly lower climb speed, penalty to AC and to hit rolls while climbing (with climb speed he gets higher ground bonus) and he would be in risk of falling. Another example: There is a room made entirely of glass that is slippery. A creature with climb speed can climb the wall and the ceiling at full speed without a penalty where a normal character would require some DC 120 give or take a few dozen (as per ELH) climb check to succeed in such a stunt. Climbing is almost as good as fly speed (which is usually considered a weak +2 LA on its own). Climb speed is only limited by location. Thus climb speed is often considered LA +1 on its own. Also as per savage species aforementioned level adjustment adjustments are correct.
thefishcometh 02-26-08, 10:09 PM	There is a room made entirely of glass that is slippery. A creature with climb speed can climb the wall and the ceiling at full speed without a penalty where a normal character would require some DC 120 give or take a few dozen (as per ELH) climb check to succeed in such a stunt. No, I don't think so. Creatures with climb speeds still have to take climb checks to climb anything. They get a +8 bonus on said check, but they don't have spider climb. At least, that's how I read the rules.
ArochanoX 02-27-08, 02:30 AM	No, I don't think so. Creatures with climb speeds still have to take climb checks to climb anything. They get a +8 bonus on said check, but they don't have spider climb. At least, that's how I read the rules. Sorry, I little overreacted. But still, the first argument of my previous post is very much valid. Here's a text from the PHB: A creature with a climb speed (such as a monstrous spider, or a character under the effect of a spider climb spell) has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 (see Checks without Rolls, page 65), even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing. And the creature can climb at almost any surface detailed in the phb just by investing 4 skill points and putting a semi-high stat on climb. So I still suggest cutting the climb speed and making it a (+4) racial bonus on climb checks.
turalisj 02-27-08, 04:44 PM	Time till Naruto fans come screaming in in 5.... 4...... 3...... 2..... 1..... *beats Viktor with his +10 Trollbane Maul* Ahem, now on to the show..... I would agree with giving the Itachi the Scent ability and a +1 LA. They are already borderline +1 with the 20ft climb speed. Just give them Scent, another +2 to dexterity, and now you have a good race with +1 LA and perhaps the ninja as a favored class. *prepares to dodge various objects for the last comment*
thefishcometh 02-27-08, 09:56 PM	What if I reduced the climb speed to 10 or 15 feet? I really, really want to keep this at LA +0. Giving them scent would be flavorful, but I'm trying to keep that as a unique trait for the Nezumi. I'm using the Nezumi as presented in Oriental Adventures.
Qube 02-28-08, 08:29 AM	I like it ... reminds me of kamaitachi ... dependent of the power of your campaign, this is an LA+0 or LA+1 race. if your powerlevel allows whispergnome and psionics (especially 'up the wall') this is a LA+0 race. if your powerlevel leans more towards core only, it's LA+.5
turalisj 02-28-08, 09:09 AM	Hahahahahhahahahahahhahah. 'If your campaign allows psionics' HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH *pulls out a shotgun and aims it at Qube's head*
Qube 02-28-08, 09:52 AM	HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH *pulls out a shotgun and aims it at Qube's head*a shot gun? pfff. I'm an epic level fighter. I clip my nails with a shotgun. No seriously ... whats funny? some DMs want to play core only, others play with everything (even 3.0, 3.5 and unearthed arcane stuff combined); others allow everything as long as the book is present during the game ...
StruckingFuggle 02-28-08, 12:45 PM	I think he finds it funny because you're seemingly implying that psionics is higher on a power curve than core is.
thefishcometh 02-28-08, 02:29 PM	Well, the power level of psionics doesn't even matter because psionics aren't even available in my campaign. I don't like the flavor of it. "It's magic, but different. Cause it comes from your brain. And wizard magic, like, doesn't. Oh, and there are crystals and stuff. And, like, no robes or hats. Yeah." That's just stupid. IMHO. Anyways, I'm going to drop the climb speed down to 15 feet. I think that's pretty balanced. I mean, look at dwarves. And look at HUMANS. A free feet and bonus skills? All of your choice? Sweeet.
ArochanoX 02-28-08, 03:37 PM	Humans get approximately 2 bonus feats at level one and later another 3-4 (increased skill points are a little more than 4 feats if 5 skill points equal one feat). The itachi gets 3: Itachi receive Track as a bonus feat at first level. +2 racial bonus to Balance, Listen, Survival, and Spot checks. Where some-one would say that the three feats are sub-par or otherwise weak, it's still 3 feats. Also the low-light vision is good (maybe worth a feat) and the climb speed. The climb speed is really huge. It's like 3 times skill focus: climb and then an ability to take 10 on the check, ignore the "lose dex to AC" (maybe these two together are worth a feat) and even gain higher ground bonus on various to hit rolls (maybe equilevalent to a weapon focus feat). So the climb speed solely is atleast 5 feats (that's why it's so darn powerful). So how would a weasel man whose "value" is roughly 9 feats (ignoring the unbalanced abilities here) compare to a human whose value 2 feats at once and later, gradually some 3 more? I'd say the weasel-man was 2-3 times more powerful than the human just by comparing the feats. Luckily the level adjustment system doesn't work that way and the weasel here only needs a level adjustment of +1 if it want's to retain its climb speed. Sure, give some more juice to it, but not too much if you want to keep it LA +1. On the other hand, if you want it to be balanced LA 0 critter, take the climb speed away and give it a skill boost to climb (as you did with the balance and other skills). Why I say balanced LA 0? It's because a LA0 creature shouldn't have very good abilities countered by very bad abilities, just averagely good abilities countered by averagely bad abilities. And yes. Climb speed is a very good ability.
thefishcometh 02-28-08, 04:52 PM	What if the Itachi were to improve their climbing skills over time? Say, at 1st level they have +4 to climb, at 5th a climb speed of 10 feet, and at 10th a 20ft climb speed?
StruckingFuggle 02-28-08, 05:25 PM	Where some-one would say that the three feats are sub-par or otherwise weak, it's still 3 feats. But they're sub-par and conditional feats (especially track)! If all feats are not equal, then why should they be judged equally for racial creation...? Also the low-light vision is good (maybe worth a feat) and the climb speed. A climb speed is fairly unique, but a lot of it can be pre-empted at later levels (levitate, fly, spider climb, etc), and low-light vision, while humans don't have it, is common in player races, and there's also races with darkvision, so ... again, I think you're over-valuing LLV. (ignoring the unbalanced abilities here) It's +2 and -2, and they're two stats that are both negligible or important depending on your build; it's fairly even. This whole "physical ability scores > mental" is some sort of lie that's both crazily perpetuated by WotC and at once ignored by them, because you almost never see a bonus to a caster stat coming at the same 'cost' as a bonus to a physical stat, caster boosts are almost always (I could be forgetting a counterexample) treated as needing to take more to balance in the stuff they put out. compare to a human whose value 2 feats at once and later, gradually some 3 more? Well, by your math, how about comparing him to a Dwarf? Climb speed is a very good ability. I still think it depends heavily on the campaign, and not just the level of the campaign, but more, too. Of course, ultimately, we can't make you do anything. I might use it as written at LA0, myself. You could (should?) try both versions and see how it works. See if everyone wants to abandon extant LA0 races for an LA0 Itachi, see how they both work...
Ekko 02-28-08, 05:39 PM	The current 15ft. climb seems balanced. Lets compare the itachi to a dwarf. Dwarf vs. Itachi +2 Con -2 Cha vs. +2 Dex, -2 Wis Even with the Physical>Mental idea, they're still roughly equal. Tie. Speed 20 vs. Speed 30 Itachi wins here Darvision 60 ft. vs Low Light Vision Dwarf wins here. Stonecunning vs. Track Both are limited usefulness, not great abilities. Tie. Misc. Dwarf abilities* vs. Climb speed I would say that the dwarf has the upperhand here, but, if climb is so powerful, then they're even. Tie/Dwarf. So the Itachi is just about as powerful as a dwarf. Heh, that seems like a nice LA 0. *+2 vs. poison and spells, +4 vs. trips, and the combat bonuses to certain enemies EDIT: Hey! I didn't realize Strucking Fuggle suggested a Itachi/Dwarf comparison. So, here it is, anyways.
sakuradm 02-28-08, 06:52 PM	o_O
ArochanoX 02-29-08, 02:16 AM	What if the Itachi were to improve their climbing skills over time? Say, at 1st level they have +4 to climb, at 5th a climb speed of 10 feet, and at 10th a 20ft climb speed? That is a very good idea. Given that raptorans (from RotW) get fly speed gradually over time, it seems like a good choice. The race would be the top end LA 0 race, but would not overshadow the others. Later (maybe at 5th) level when it gains the climb speed, your party wizard has been able to cast spider climb from level 3. StruckingFuggle: You could (should?) try both versions and see how it works. See if everyone wants to abandon extant LA0 races for an LA0 Itachi, see how they both work... Very good. Acid testing is always considered the best way of adjusting race's LA. Though to cover all the angles, it should be done repeatedly and many times and over multiple different levels. It's time taking to get a very accurate result, but an usable result can be done by a somewhat fewer work. If all feats are not equal, then why should they be judged equally for racial creation...? Because if it was purely on mechanic reasons, a player takes the "sub-par" feat even though it's sub-par because it gives him a bonus what he needs. For example a player chooses a race that suits his character-idea by comparing it to others. If a race is strikingly more powerful (in certain aspect that the player seeks at the time for the certain campaing) the player chooses the race for his character. Now let's say a player wants to be a thief-acrobat (not the PRC, rather the idea of a thief and an acrobat combined), he would probably go for itachi here as it has nice skill bonuses on 5 different skills from which 4 are useful for thief-acrobat. He would be a rogue that uses heaviliy move silently, hide and acrobatic skills (as well as listen and spot) and his tactic is to climb in the ceilings to avoid detection and shoot sneak-attacked arrows from places they shouldn't come. Human and halfling are both great for this kind of job, but the itachi is just better. This is just an example. Itachi works well with sorcerers, wizards, warlocks, ninjas and scouts (there maybe more). Well, by your math, how about comparing him to a Dwarf Let's see. Ability scores (let's say these balanced as we said Itachis were) Speed 20ft (though not reduced by heavy armor. I'd say -1 feat here considering dash feat) Darkvision (1-2 feats as it is somewhat more powerful than low-light vision) Stonecunning (1 feat) Weapon familiarity (2 exotic weapon proficiencies is 2 feats) Stability (maybe a little more than 1 feat. It gives bonuses of two feats, but works only when defending) Saving throw bonuses (1 feat) Racial enemies (together maybe 1 feat) Appraise and craft bonuses were factored in stonecunning as they're conditional. Number of languages is the same. So together they add to 7-8 feats depending on darkvision. (The climb speed solely was 5 so it's way too powerful for a LA0 creature, similary why there are no creatures with powerful build and LA0.) Just out of curiosity, by approximating its value by feats, powerful build gives us: improved natural attack (that works on weapons too) improved bullrush (+4 bonus as is the size bonus) improved grapple (+4 bonus as is the size bonus) resist trip something (worth less than a feat) ability to ignore certain swallow whole and improved grabs (worth less than a feat.) So maybe a 4 feats total. That is still very much over half dwarf's "feat cost" and thus unsuitable for a LA 0 creature. Feats as a measure of power is not definitive, but it gives us a nice approximation. But use it only as a guideline. Don't make any assumptions that 5 feats (give or take) would make a perfectly balanced LA 0 race.
StruckingFuggle 02-29-08, 02:28 AM	So, wait, are you saying that races shouldn't be better at one or two classes over other classes...? o.o (Also, hm. Anyone got an FP Breakdown? Or has a thing been 'published' yet so people can do it themselves?)
ArochanoX 02-29-08, 06:56 AM	So, wait, are you saying that races shouldn't be better at one or two classes over other classes...? o.o Hardly. I just say that the races should be balanced towards the best (simple) combination. Adjusting LA that way gives the most balanced result. For example a pixie fighter or barbarian won't be worth the LA, but for example pixie warlock or rogue is. Race/Class combinations aren't even and they even shouldn't be even, but there should be a limit of how good such a combination can be.
Captain_Kobold 02-29-08, 07:54 AM	Generally, LA is based upon the most advantageous combinations. It is always possible to play a suboptimal character, even with the PHB core races. It is the possibility of abuse with optimisation that LA is designed to limit. There are always abberations, even with official published content (Whisper Gnomes, Mineral and Feral templates etc.) but these are generally recognised as such. Thus, for a race which would make most effective rogues, it should be compared with Halfling and Elf rogues tio determine whether it is much more effective, and thus warrants an LA adjustment.
thefishcometh 03-07-08, 02:28 AM	:bump: A shameless necrothread, I know, but I would like additional comments. Especially now that I've replaced their climb speed with this: • Climbing (Ex): Itachi are natural climbers but develop their abilities somewhat slowly. Itachi have a +4 racial bonus on Climb checks. When an Itachi reaches 3 HD, this bonus increases to +8. An Itachi with 5 HD gains a climb speed of 15 feet. All the rules for creatures with climb speeds apply to Itachi with 5 or more Hit Dice.
thefishcometh 03-11-08, 05:04 PM	Things that go :bump: in the night.