Karsite Race. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Karsite Race. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tinari
05-29-07, 04:37 PM Ok.

Tome of Magic was an interesting little read but there was one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb for me. The Karsite race. I know you can simply not allow it into a game if you don't like, but I am wondering, who would NOT want to take this race from a purely mechanical viewpoint?

You get spell resistance scaling with your CLASS levels while NOT being prohibited from using psionics, which while a little weaker than magic all in all, essentially would allow you all the functions of a caster in an alternate form.

+con is great for any class, regardless. Charisma? Sure, why not. No penalties to speak of.

Not only do you have this scaling SR, but if a spell fails to penetrate it, you heal HITPOINTS of damage for free? Sign me up. :D

I was wondering, with most races, using LA buyoff is a great idea as the LA becomes less and less of an issue and weakens you in the long run. But would it be viable to actually deny one person playing a karsite usage of LA buyoff, while letting his 2 LA friend buy his LA off?

Is this race balanced for it's ECL at all?

Just wanting some thoughts and feedback.
Morwen
05-29-07, 05:13 PM It's not exactly broken. It has a +2 LA, and seems to be pretty well balanced. I would not be compelled to use it, even if I were a psionic character or a binder.

Remember that in order to start buying off a +2 LA, you need to be 6th level. For quite some time before that, you'll be pretty weak compared to the rest of the group. Sure, the +2 Con helps a tiny little bit with this, but the others will have 2 full HD more than you (including their Con bonus twice).
hiryuu
05-29-07, 05:35 PM The issue of psionics is a little fuzzy: by definition, anything that affects spells/spellcasters affects powers/manifesters by default. Technically, you wouldn't be able to do such a thing.

An initiator class, however, would benefit to some degree.
Eerongal
05-29-07, 05:38 PM The issue of psionics is a little fuzzy: by definition, anything that affects spells/spellcasters affects powers/manifesters by default. Technically, you wouldn't be able to do such a thing.

An initiator class, however, would benefit to some degree.

If i remember correctly, it specifically states psionics as being able to be taken by a karsite. Basically, anything that isn't wizard/sorcerer/cleric is fair game for them. Warlocks are ok, all 3 of the systems in ToM is ok, MoI is ok, psionics, etc. as long as you arent specifically an arcane or divine spell caster, it's ok.
hiryuu
05-29-07, 07:04 PM If i remember correctly, it specifically states psionics as being able to be taken by a karsite. Basically, anything that isn't wizard/sorcerer/cleric is fair game for them. Warlocks are ok, all 3 of the systems in ToM is ok, MoI is ok, psionics, etc. as long as you arent specifically an arcane or divine spell caster, it's ok.

That's very odd. Especially since in Faerun, where they'd be from, being psionic is like having a little tiny weave inside your head, but then, psionics in Faerun is always a sticky issue.
Eerongal
05-29-07, 07:35 PM Ok, i just checked, and specific words state:

"He can use spell-like abilities, psionic powers, and magic items normally"

under the 'spellcasting inability' feature (detriment?) of the race
snakeman830
05-30-07, 09:27 AM In an epic campaign, my younger brother is playing a Karsite Monk. Devestating aginst NPC's with magic weapons/ spellcasters. Especially since he now has Epic Deflection (and will be taking Infinite deflection next level). In addition, because of a houserule, he has spell resistance of twice his monk level plus the monk strating point plus the Karsite starting point. (It's 69 right now). No caster of our CR can penetrate it, so it's really quite fun to watch him go.

Do I think it's worth the +2 LA? Yes.
Eerongal
05-30-07, 09:36 AM In an epic campaign, my younger brother is playing a Karsite Monk. Devestating aginst NPC's with magic weapons/ spellcasters. Especially since he now has Epic Deflection (and will be taking Infinite deflection next level). In addition, because of a houserule, he has spell resistance of twice his monk level plus the monk strating point plus the Karsite starting point. (It's 69 right now). No caster of our CR can penetrate it, so it's really quite fun to watch him go.

Do I think it's worth the +2 LA? Yes.

Spell resistance doesn't stack, it overlaps.
Disciple_of_Juiblex
05-30-07, 09:50 AM Also dident they rule (errata) that artifacer magic is no longer divine or arcane? if so there is another option.

However one things still bugs me, do they get an extra feat and skill points as normal humans? they say to use all the traits ...
Eerongal
05-30-07, 09:51 AM yes, they do. They get everything a standard human gets PLUS all that stuff listed there.
snakeman830
05-30-07, 01:09 PM Spell resistance doesn't stack, it overlaps.

I did say it was due to a houserule :rolleyes:
Eerongal
05-30-07, 01:36 PM oh, ok, i thought you were just refering to the fact that the monk's SR was (monks level X 2) + 10 being a houserule over the standard monks level +10 :P
Luis_Dragunov
05-30-07, 03:06 PM Isn't there a rule about inborn spell resistance adding to acquired spell resistance? Something like innate SR -10 + acquired SR? I think it came up because of drow monks.
Only when you have one (or both) of the sources comming from an item does it overlap.
Eerongal
05-30-07, 03:24 PM as far as i'm aware, according to RAW, it always overlaps

Spell Resistance
Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.)

To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another.

Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps.

According to the specific wording, it always overlaps, no exceptions. I've never seen this addressed anywhere else other then in the SR section, so if there's any other rules on that matter, i would certainly love for you to point me out. From a player's perspective, i would love for you to show me i'm wrong on this one, because i've always thought players get kinda screwed out of really high SR unlike monsters/enemies :P
Luis_Dragunov
05-30-07, 03:35 PM Well, I don't know where I've read it... maybe I just figured it out. Well, anyway, it's a houserule - and a very good one.
Say you have a SR race. You gain spell resistance from a class feature or item. The highest spell resistance prevails but you reduce the lowest one by 10 points and add the remaining result to the highest SR score. Everyone's happy.
Elzaban the Ethereal
05-30-07, 04:40 PM Some spell resistances specifically say that they do stack, which is great for a Karsite, since the prime candidate here is the Forsaker prestige class (from Masters of the Wild). What better for an antimagic race than an antimagic prestige class?
Eerongal
05-30-07, 05:00 PM yeah, i like those prestiege classes that have abilities that specifically state they are exceptions to certian rules :P
Tinari
05-30-07, 10:03 PM Back to the OP's original thoughts, but better worded.

Does it seem like this race gives too much for +2 LA, and given it is a race who's innate abilities actually explicitly stack with it's class levels, would preventing or reducing it's ability to have LA buyoff be reasonable?

They don't even have to specialize in anti-magic. Where as normal race/class cherry picking cheese will end up with someone specialized into uselessness outside their field, you can still play a viable utility psion, a soul shaper, binder or all that.
Elzaban the Ethereal
05-30-07, 11:03 PM That depends, do you want to get rid of the ability to use LA buyoff for drow and githzerai? While they don't heal when they resist spells, they have better spell resistance than karsites, and frankly, they have better abilities beyond that. And they're allowed to cast magic.

Frankly, if you've got someone playing a karsite who then goes and uses psionics or something to get around the no-spells, and the spell resistance is proving to be a problem, I wouldn't focus on eliminating LA buyoff (if you're dead set on having it in the first place). If they're bringing alternate systems to the table, then you might as well throw them right back at them as the DM. So what if he has spell resistance? Throw Martial Adepts and Binders and Incarnum at him. Heck, you wouldn't be out of line to say that psionics and magic aren't transparent, and that he'd better find himself some way or protecting against psionic powers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tinari 05-29-07, 04:37 PM	Ok. Tome of Magic was an interesting little read but there was one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb for me. The Karsite race. I know you can simply not allow it into a game if you don't like, but I am wondering, who would NOT want to take this race from a purely mechanical viewpoint? You get spell resistance scaling with your CLASS levels while NOT being prohibited from using psionics, which while a little weaker than magic all in all, essentially would allow you all the functions of a caster in an alternate form. +con is great for any class, regardless. Charisma? Sure, why not. No penalties to speak of. Not only do you have this scaling SR, but if a spell fails to penetrate it, you heal HITPOINTS of damage for free? Sign me up. :D I was wondering, with most races, using LA buyoff is a great idea as the LA becomes less and less of an issue and weakens you in the long run. But would it be viable to actually deny one person playing a karsite usage of LA buyoff, while letting his 2 LA friend buy his LA off? Is this race balanced for it's ECL at all? Just wanting some thoughts and feedback.
Morwen 05-29-07, 05:13 PM	It's not exactly broken. It has a +2 LA, and seems to be pretty well balanced. I would not be compelled to use it, even if I were a psionic character or a binder. Remember that in order to start buying off a +2 LA, you need to be 6th level. For quite some time before that, you'll be pretty weak compared to the rest of the group. Sure, the +2 Con helps a tiny little bit with this, but the others will have 2 full HD more than you (including their Con bonus twice).
hiryuu 05-29-07, 05:35 PM	The issue of psionics is a little fuzzy: by definition, anything that affects spells/spellcasters affects powers/manifesters by default. Technically, you wouldn't be able to do such a thing. An initiator class, however, would benefit to some degree.
Eerongal 05-29-07, 05:38 PM	The issue of psionics is a little fuzzy: by definition, anything that affects spells/spellcasters affects powers/manifesters by default. Technically, you wouldn't be able to do such a thing. An initiator class, however, would benefit to some degree. If i remember correctly, it specifically states psionics as being able to be taken by a karsite. Basically, anything that isn't wizard/sorcerer/cleric is fair game for them. Warlocks are ok, all 3 of the systems in ToM is ok, MoI is ok, psionics, etc. as long as you arent specifically an arcane or divine spell caster, it's ok.
hiryuu 05-29-07, 07:04 PM	If i remember correctly, it specifically states psionics as being able to be taken by a karsite. Basically, anything that isn't wizard/sorcerer/cleric is fair game for them. Warlocks are ok, all 3 of the systems in ToM is ok, MoI is ok, psionics, etc. as long as you arent specifically an arcane or divine spell caster, it's ok. That's very odd. Especially since in Faerun, where they'd be from, being psionic is like having a little tiny weave inside your head, but then, psionics in Faerun is always a sticky issue.
Eerongal 05-29-07, 07:35 PM	Ok, i just checked, and specific words state: "He can use spell-like abilities, psionic powers, and magic items normally" under the 'spellcasting inability' feature (detriment?) of the race
snakeman830 05-30-07, 09:27 AM	In an epic campaign, my younger brother is playing a Karsite Monk. Devestating aginst NPC's with magic weapons/ spellcasters. Especially since he now has Epic Deflection (and will be taking Infinite deflection next level). In addition, because of a houserule, he has spell resistance of twice his monk level plus the monk strating point plus the Karsite starting point. (It's 69 right now). No caster of our CR can penetrate it, so it's really quite fun to watch him go. Do I think it's worth the +2 LA? Yes.
Eerongal 05-30-07, 09:36 AM	In an epic campaign, my younger brother is playing a Karsite Monk. Devestating aginst NPC's with magic weapons/ spellcasters. Especially since he now has Epic Deflection (and will be taking Infinite deflection next level). In addition, because of a houserule, he has spell resistance of twice his monk level plus the monk strating point plus the Karsite starting point. (It's 69 right now). No caster of our CR can penetrate it, so it's really quite fun to watch him go. Do I think it's worth the +2 LA? Yes. Spell resistance doesn't stack, it overlaps.
Disciple_of_Juiblex 05-30-07, 09:50 AM	Also dident they rule (errata) that artifacer magic is no longer divine or arcane? if so there is another option. However one things still bugs me, do they get an extra feat and skill points as normal humans? they say to use all the traits ...
Eerongal 05-30-07, 09:51 AM	yes, they do. They get everything a standard human gets PLUS all that stuff listed there.
snakeman830 05-30-07, 01:09 PM	Spell resistance doesn't stack, it overlaps. I did say it was due to a houserule :rolleyes:
Eerongal 05-30-07, 01:36 PM	oh, ok, i thought you were just refering to the fact that the monk's SR was (monks level X 2) + 10 being a houserule over the standard monks level +10 :P
Luis_Dragunov 05-30-07, 03:06 PM	Isn't there a rule about inborn spell resistance adding to acquired spell resistance? Something like innate SR -10 + acquired SR? I think it came up because of drow monks. Only when you have one (or both) of the sources comming from an item does it overlap.
Eerongal 05-30-07, 03:24 PM	as far as i'm aware, according to RAW, it always overlaps Spell Resistance Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.) To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate. Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below. A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity). A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities. A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another. Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps. According to the specific wording, it always overlaps, no exceptions. I've never seen this addressed anywhere else other then in the SR section, so if there's any other rules on that matter, i would certainly love for you to point me out. From a player's perspective, i would love for you to show me i'm wrong on this one, because i've always thought players get kinda screwed out of really high SR unlike monsters/enemies :P
Luis_Dragunov 05-30-07, 03:35 PM	Well, I don't know where I've read it... maybe I just figured it out. Well, anyway, it's a houserule - and a very good one. Say you have a SR race. You gain spell resistance from a class feature or item. The highest spell resistance prevails but you reduce the lowest one by 10 points and add the remaining result to the highest SR score. Everyone's happy.
Elzaban the Ethereal 05-30-07, 04:40 PM	Some spell resistances specifically say that they do stack, which is great for a Karsite, since the prime candidate here is the Forsaker prestige class (from Masters of the Wild). What better for an antimagic race than an antimagic prestige class?
Eerongal 05-30-07, 05:00 PM	yeah, i like those prestiege classes that have abilities that specifically state they are exceptions to certian rules :P
Tinari 05-30-07, 10:03 PM	Back to the OP's original thoughts, but better worded. Does it seem like this race gives too much for +2 LA, and given it is a race who's innate abilities actually explicitly stack with it's class levels, would preventing or reducing it's ability to have LA buyoff be reasonable? They don't even have to specialize in anti-magic. Where as normal race/class cherry picking cheese will end up with someone specialized into uselessness outside their field, you can still play a viable utility psion, a soul shaper, binder or all that.
Elzaban the Ethereal 05-30-07, 11:03 PM	That depends, do you want to get rid of the ability to use LA buyoff for drow and githzerai? While they don't heal when they resist spells, they have better spell resistance than karsites, and frankly, they have better abilities beyond that. And they're allowed to cast magic. Frankly, if you've got someone playing a karsite who then goes and uses psionics or something to get around the no-spells, and the spell resistance is proving to be a problem, I wouldn't focus on eliminating LA buyoff (if you're dead set on having it in the first place). If they're bringing alternate systems to the table, then you might as well throw them right back at them as the DM. So what if he has spell resistance? Throw Martial Adepts and Binders and Incarnum at him. Heck, you wouldn't be out of line to say that psionics and magic aren't transparent, and that he'd better find himself some way or protecting against psionic powers.