Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maeglin_Dubh 02-09-08, 10:11 PM	This is my first race, and I thought I should bring it here for help in balancing. I'll be bringing in flavor and background as it goes along, incorporating elements of real-world scorpions and what I know of the D&D setting. Objective: A fun race with some interesting options for racial feats and classes, with viable paths to most classes and plenty of interesting tactics. * -2 Charisma: Kelikera have a startling appearance to others. * Monstrous Humanoid (Scorpion): An amalgam of man and scorpion, the Kelikera have a tail and one claw, and their body is covered with a chitinous carapace. * Medium: As Medium creatures, Kelikera have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Carapace: +1 to AC against slashing and piercing. * Kelikera base land speed is 30 ft. (35?) * Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, poison Con 11 (1d4 Dex); Pincer, 1d6 blunt and slashing. * A Kelikera cannot wield weapons or shields in his off-hand (the pincer), or wield two-handed weapons. * Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. * Racial bonus of +2 to Spot and Balance. Fine bristles on the carapace act as balance organs, and their compound eyes allow them to have a greater awareness of their surroundings. * Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Kelikeran * Favored Class: Ranger I'm open to advice and corrections. I'd like to make it LA=0, but +1 or 1 racial HD would be acceptable. I'm thinking of options for racial feats , and I'm looking at the stats for a medium monstrous scorpion and considering the addition of Darkvision or Tremorsense, both traits of the monstrous scorpion. Ideas?
Hanzo187 02-09-08, 10:59 PM	* -2 Charisma: Kelikera have a startling appearance to others. I'll be going one at a time, but having a race with only negative mods is rare. * Carapace: +1 to AC against slashing and piercing. Since this is a conditional bonus, you're fine here. * Kelikera base land speed is 30 ft. (35?) This is fine at 30 ft. Forty might pass, but I'm not 100% on that. * Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, poison Con 11 (1d4 Dex); Pincer, 1d6 blunt and slashing. I'm guessing your tail poison is an injury poison. You'll need to specify. Your poison also needs secondary damage. In addition, blunt damage is called bludgeoning damage (try to keep it that way for the sake of clarity). * A Kelikera cannot wield weapons or shields in his off-hand (the pincer), or wield two-handed weapons. Ouch! Now you've got trouble. Since your race has Favored Class Ranger, you've automatically screwed it out of both combat styles (remember, bows require both hands to use). I'd suggest changing it to a claw attack for the off-hand, or allowing only light weapons in the off-hand. Taking out two-weapon combat is just a huge hit. * Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. This won't have a significant impact on the game, so this is fine as is.* Racial bonus of +2 to Spot and Balance. Fine bristles on the carapace act as balance organs, and their compound eyes allow them to have a greater awareness of their surroundings. This is fine. Truth be told, your race is on the weak side of LA +0. No two-weapon fighting creates a serious disadvantage, especially since both of the Ranger's styles require both hands. Even with the poison, it doesn't give enough incentive to give up two-weapon fighting. There's nothing wrong having a positive racial mod, either. You'd still be balanced with a positive mod. I'd suggest making a racial feat that gives you Tremorsense 5' for every 4 or 5 ranks in Spot, if you're looking for ideas in that area. For now, though, your Kelikera is fairly weak.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-09-08, 11:08 PM	Flavor (since I just read the Race Builder's guide again, and noted the very first point) My lack of knowledge of the geography of the world of D&D prevents me from giving them a homeland. But I suppose they must be the result of some magical experiment, given their nature as bipedal, one-clawed scorpions. I'd like to come up with something more compelling as a backstory, but I'm currently drawing a blank. -=-Personality-=- Kelikera are, generally speaking, suspicious. Not only of others, but also of each other. When they mate, it is purely for procreation, and rarely do the parents stay together. The mother is very protective of her developing children, and often suspects the father of wanting to kill the children; accordingly, the father often leaves before the mother decides to kill him. -=-Physical Description-=- Kelikera have the same height range as humans, but also usually weigh slightly more due to their carapace. The carapace itself is usually dark brown to black, and covers the entire body. They have compound eyes, barely larger than those of a human, and razor-sharp mandibles. One hand is actually in the form of a scorpion's pincer, and the Kelikera treat this as their non-dominant hand. -=-Relations-=- Kelikera are suspicious of most races, but they will make deals and trades with them. They usually require abnormal collateral to ensure that deals will not be broken. Kelikera who adventure abroad largely tend to keep to themselves, and even with an adventuring party, often scout ahead or take on functions that will leave them independent of the main party. -=-Alignment-=- Any More later, perhaps. EDIT: For reply to post made while I was writing this up... Ok, the negative only modifier was that I thought it would be too powerful. Dex or Con would be my choice for an addition. Con would be less desirable, since that's the same bonus as dwarves. The claw is intended to be a light weapon, thus able to be used with two-weapon fighting for the ranger. I hadn't thought of bows. Secondary damage for the poison was supposed to be the same as the initial, with most scorpions having neurotoxins that paralyze their prey. I suppose Strength would make a good secondary effect for that purpose. A Medium scorpion has both darkvision and tremorsense out to 60'; would the feat you suggested be better, or a flat sense? If the feat, should it be automatic at character creation? Speed could be anywhere from 30-40 without bothering me much, depending on how it will balance.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-12-08, 04:43 PM	Anyone else have any comments or ideas? I'd like to use this race to build something for our current World's Largest Dungeon arc (anything goes - if it runs in d20, it's legal, including Star Wars and Modern).
ciaran 02-12-08, 06:51 PM	* -2 Charisma: Kelikera have a startling appearance to others. Perhaps a Con bonus would fit? * Carapace: +1 to AC against slashing and piercing. DR 1/bludgeoning would have a similar effect and IMO would move game play faster than re-computing AC. Alternately grant a +1 natural AC bonus. * Kelikera base land speed is 30 ft. (35?) Keep it at 30 unless its a LA +1. * Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, poison Con 11 (1d4 Dex) The tail is cool. Poison at first level is a bit much. Perhaps create some racial feats geared towards the tail or maybe it only trigger the poison effect on a critical hit. Also the Poison DC should progress at 1/2 HD + Con and a flat 2 or 4 Dex damage would simplify things for the DM. Its a pain to keep track of ability damage for monsters that are going to die at the end of combat. :) * A Kelikera cannot wield weapons or shields in his off-hand (the pincer), or wield two-handed weapons. I would leave the hands as functional as any other PC race's are and keep the damage appropriate for their size (1d3). Maybe because of their carapaced hands their attacks always count as being armed. * Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. I like how you follow a formula, like that of holding your breath. Maybe you could instead just say that it only needs a minimal amount of water each day and/or only makes checks half as often. * Racial bonus of +2 to Spot and Balance. Fine bristles on the carapace act as balance organs, and their compound eyes allow them to have a greater awareness of their surroundings. The MM entry for scorpions supports the reliance on Spot checks, however it also suggests skill in Climb rather than Blanace. But its a small difference. * Favored Class: Ranger Fitting. Feats: One that can be chosen only at 1st level that suggests a stronger tie to the scorpion heritage, much like the kobold's chain or dragon/sorcerer feats. Maybe it grants a poison save bonus. Ones that increases tail and claw damage die, poison damage die or upgrades poison to Con damage. Tail attack with no penalty to attack when both claws score hits, maybe with a small increase to poison dc (some kind of a grab) Tail attacks made as primary attack and with no -4 penalty when in control of a grapple. Additional nat AC bones or DR bonus. Ability Focus and Multiattack from MM.
Xiuhcoatl 02-12-08, 07:25 PM	I find it somewhat odd that they have a Dex-damaging poison, when a real monstrous scorpion has a Con-damaging poison.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-12-08, 07:39 PM	Maybe two feats available at starting level: One allows for greater ties to the heritage through the claw, the other greater ties through the tail. The Heritage of the Claw feat would make the claw hand function as a Scorpion Claw weapon from Sandstorm, and the Heritage of the Sting would give the tail poison scaling with hit dice (I'm not entirely certain how to write that up). I chose balance instead of climb, since Kelikerans only have two legs, and the bristles on a scorpion's carapace actually do function to help them keep their balance. Con +2, Cha -2 works for me. Is DR 1/bludgeoning still in keeping with a LA=0? The way it is now, they only have one claw, since I couldn't really justify a claw hand wielding weapons in my own mind... Should I give them two claws, or try to focus on the one? I had another idea for a claw feat, allowing it to function as a Small Shield.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-12-08, 07:40 PM	I find it somewhat odd that they have a Dex-damaging poison, when a real monstrous scorpion has a Con-damaging poison. I did that because real -real- scorpions use paralytic venom, and damaging Dex seemed the best way to reflect that.
ciaran 02-12-08, 07:51 PM	You could really flesh this guy out by making him with two or three racial hit dice.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-12-08, 08:08 PM	You could really flesh this guy out by making him with two or three racial hit dice. I could, but I want to keep them LA=0. The Racial Hit Die are an option, of course, but not a requirement.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-18-08, 04:02 PM	* +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma: Kelikera have a startling appearance to others, but their exoskeletal structure and acclimation to harsh living makes them hardier than average. * Monstrous Humanoid (Scorpion): An amalgam of man and scorpion, the Kelikera have a tail and sometimes pincers, and their body is covered with a chitinous carapace. * Medium: As Medium creatures, Kelikera have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Carapace: DR:1/bludgeoning * Kelikera base land speed is 30 ft. * Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, injury poison 1/2 HD+Con, initial damage 2 Dex, secondary damage 2 Dex. * Armored Hands: When making an unarmed attack, the Kelikera is treated as armed for the purposes of attracting attacks of opportunity. * Special Attack: When in control of a grapple, the tail may be used as a primary light weapon to attack, with no penalty. * Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. * Racial bonus of +2 to Spot and Balance. Fine bristles on the carapace act as balance organs, and their compound eyes allow them to have a greater awareness of their surroundings. * Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Kelikeran * Favored Class: Ranger -=-Racial Feats-=- Heritage of the Claw Prerequisite: 15 Strength Benefit: Your pincers now do bludgeoning/slashing damage as if you were one size category larger than normal. Additionally, if you successfully strike with both of them in one round, you may make a free grapple attempt. If it succeeds, you may then strike with your stinger as a free action. Special: You may only take this feat as a 1st level Kelikera. Heritage of the Tail Prerequisite: 15 Con Benefit: Your tail now does 1d6 slashing/piercing damage, and the poison's save DC becomes HD+Con. Damage remains the same. Special: You may only take this feat as a 1st level Kelikera. Heritage of the Claw seems overpowered... I feel like they should both have prerequisites... let me slap those on before I post this up and I'll feel better about it. Comments? Ideas? Once I figure out how to format it, I'll probably try a racial class or two.
AtsuiShoto 02-18-08, 05:13 PM	I'm not much of a fan of racial feats, on account of there being so many good feats to choose from in the whole of D&D. If there are certain abilities that you just HAVE to give to your race, but you just CAN'T give them an ECL bump, then make a racial feat or two. There's no need to hash out a bunch of feats just for the sake of having them available. For instance, the damage increases can be covered by Improved Natural Weapon, if desired. The DC increases should already be balanced as level-dependent. A good racial feat would be something like Tremorsense, described as the character learning to pay attention to his/her sensitive bristles to glean information about the surroundings. It's a bit too powerful to fit on a +0 ECL race, but it is very flavorful and well worth filling a feat slot. I actually rather like the claw's original inability to wield weapons or shields. Some clarification about wands, potions, torches (etc.) may be needed, though. It's a good disadvantage, because it is a very strong one without feeling arbitrary and contrived. With the Ranger favored enemy it lends a strong inclination toward two-weapon fighting (with the natural weapon being the off-hand, which is completely legal) or spellcasting (given that charisma is the only mental stat penalized, and casters tend to like natural armor). Now, with a -2 Charisma, the claw penalty, and no balancing ability bonus you've created a power gap that can be filled with any of a number of interesting things. If you happen to think poison is a great idea for your race, then you can make the poison sting more useful than a mere annoyance. Your racial feat for improving fighting with the tail is excellent (although maybe a bit mis-directed, since it relies on the claw attacks, not just the tail)! The improved poison stats could be built right into the race (filling the power gap), and the improved combat style left over is well worth taking a feat for! Alternatively, the poison could be a built-in further incentive for Two Weapon Fighting, if you make the free tail attack a normal part of the race's abilities. Perhaps any full attack can include the tail attack at a -5 attack penalty, dealing the poison damage.
ragoftag 02-18-08, 06:41 PM	Just a thought or 2... Monstrous Humanoid (Scorpion): An amalgam of man and scorpion, the Kelikera have a tail and one claw, and their body is covered with a chitinous carapace.Personally, I'd go with two hands and make them 'Quadruped'. The extra legs being too weak individually to trip or be tripped by. Carapace: +1 to AC against slashing and piercing.I'm lazy, just make it natural armor or the armor bonus that does not stack. Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, poison DC 11 (1d4 Dex) Nice, perhaps racial feats that raise potency. Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4.Solid tie in to desert based, could use a similar bump on Survival checks. I did such a race as a monster in '78 or '79 (meant to serve as troll stand-ins), but they aren't remotely usable now. Yours could drastically alter desert encounters of 'humanoids'! I will be watching, good work so far.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-18-08, 10:42 PM	I'm not much of a fan of racial feats, on account of there being so many good feats to choose from in the whole of D&D. If there are certain abilities that you just HAVE to give to your race, but you just CAN'T give them an ECL bump, then make a racial feat or two. There's no need to hash out a bunch of feats just for the sake of having them available. For instance, the damage increases can be covered by Improved Natural Weapon, if desired. The DC increases should already be balanced as level-dependent. A good racial feat would be something like Tremorsense, described as the character learning to pay attention to his/her sensitive bristles to glean information about the surroundings. It's a bit too powerful to fit on a +0 ECL race, but it is very flavorful and well worth filling a feat slot. I actually rather like the claw's original inability to wield weapons or shields. Some clarification about wands, potions, torches (etc.) may be needed, though. It's a good disadvantage, because it is a very strong one without feeling arbitrary and contrived. With the Ranger favored enemy it lends a strong inclination toward two-weapon fighting (with the natural weapon being the off-hand, which is completely legal) or spellcasting (given that charisma is the only mental stat penalized, and casters tend to like natural armor). Now, with a -2 Charisma, the claw penalty, and no balancing ability bonus you've created a power gap that can be filled with any of a number of interesting things. If you happen to think poison is a great idea for your race, then you can make the poison sting more useful than a mere annoyance. Your racial feat for improving fighting with the tail is excellent (although maybe a bit mis-directed, since it relies on the claw attacks, not just the tail)! The improved poison stats could be built right into the race (filling the power gap), and the improved combat style left over is well worth taking a feat for! Alternatively, the poison could be a built-in further incentive for Two Weapon Fighting, if you make the free tail attack a normal part of the race's abilities. Perhaps any full attack can include the tail attack at a -5 attack penalty, dealing the poison damage. If you could help me work out how to do the one-clawed idea better, that would be great, since the most recent incarnation isn't bad, but I think having the claw that functions as a weapon or shield on its own and prevents the wielding of further weaponry to be a bit more flavorful. I forgot a feat for Tremorsense, but that would definitely be worth inclusion. Should it be a flat number, or scale based on HD like the poison?
AtsuiShoto 02-19-08, 12:01 AM	Using the claw as a shield, huh? Well, that IS interesting, but it would have to be a helluva claw (I'm thinking fiddler crab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddler_crab), here). I'm having a hard time picturing how that would work within suspension of disbelief, but it certainly wouldn't be overpowered, mechanically. Given the stinging speed of a tiny scorpion's tail, I think incorporating a tail attack as part of a full attack is your best bet for weaponizing the Kelikera beyond just having the natural weapons work in the standard way. The claw could, perhaps, be available interchangeably as a slam attack or as a way to gain a bonus to grapple checks. I like the idea of providing a bonus to grapple checks made to specifically maintain a grapple, as if the claw "locks" into position once it gets a solid grip.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-19-08, 01:28 AM	Fiddler crab is exactly what I was going for, in that case. It wouldn't be an across-the-board racial thing, but some Kelikera have larger pincers than others. So, during any full-attack, the tail makes an attack at a -5 penalty? And perhaps going back to the original claw idea..... It can't wield, but it functions as a light weapon, and you can choose the two options you mentioned at character creation?
zeratulcraft 02-19-08, 03:47 AM	Hmm, why does their startling appearance make them 1 point worse at sorcery than a standard human?
Maeglin_Dubh 02-19-08, 04:20 AM	Because sorcery is just one of several things based on Charisma, and out of all the rest, their paranoid outlook on life and appearance tend to sabotage things like Diplomacy and charming others.
zeratulcraft 02-19-08, 07:43 AM	So give them a penalty to social skills made against creatures of other races, it just makes a lot more sense imo.
ciaran 02-19-08, 08:34 AM	Perhaps they are less able to form that personal connection or interact with others, a fact that is represented by a Charisma penalty.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-19-08, 03:26 PM	Perhaps they are less able to form that personal connection or interact with others, a fact that is represented by a Charisma penalty. Their suspicious nature certainly makes connections with others difficult, and if you're going to complain on the basis of Sorcery, then apply it to themselves. They're suspicious of the nature of this power from within, and tend to reject it. I still don't see a problem with a Charisma penalty...
ciaran 02-19-08, 07:02 PM	Nothing wrong with it. Just ask a Dwarf what he thinks about sharing his feelings. :D Oh and you may want to clarify that the tail's special attack to read: When in control of a grapple, the tail may be used as a primary light weapon, without the usual -4 penalty for using a weapon in a grapple. If that is indeed what you meant.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-20-08, 03:14 AM	That is indeed what I mean. Just found this passage in the 1st 1001 Races compendium..... "Natural weapon: A Dhento's sting deals 1d4 damage. Due to this, however, a Dhento can't wield a shield or a second weapon. If a Dhento strikes with his other weapon and his sting, he is treated as having the two-weapon fighting feat." Does that seem to fit, or a variation thereof? EDIT: I should clarify, the Dhento have a sting in place of their left hand.
AtsuiShoto 02-20-08, 12:52 PM	It's basically just a free feat and a free gauntlet, in exchange for the inability to ever wield anything in combat with your off-hand. Sounds fair to me. So, during any full-attack, the tail makes an attack at a -5 penalty? Yep, that was my suggestion. You could even add a clause stating that the Multiattack feat decreases this penalty to -2, and that a kelikera ranger can take this feat in place of his 2nd level Two Weapon Fighting feat. That way, a claw slam, a tail sting, and a manufactured weapon could be used in a full attack with only a -2 penalty to all attacks (I think that's how it works, and it's the end result that I think would be balanced appropriately) The bonus to maintain the grapple would be just a nice little automatic add-on, not necessarily a choice on character creation.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-20-08, 01:55 PM	* -2 Charisma: Kelikera have a startling appearance to others, and relate poorly with those of all races, including their own, because of their innately suspicious nature. * Monstrous Humanoid (Scorpion): An amalgam of man and scorpion, the Kelikera have a tail and sometimes pincers, and their body is covered with a chitinous carapace. * Medium: As Medium creatures, Kelikera have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Carapace: DR:1/bludgeoning * Kelikera base land speed is 30 ft. * Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, injury poison 1/2 HD+Con, initial damage 2 Dex, secondary damage 2 Dex. When making a full attack, the tail makes an attack at a -5 penalty for being a secondary natural weapon. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to -2, and a Kelikeran Ranger may take the Multiattack tree in place of the Two-Weapon Fighting tree for Combat Style. * Pincer Hand: A Kelikera cannot wield weapons in their off hand, and instead gains a natural slam attack of 1d4. The pincer gives the Kelikera +4 to maintain control of a grapple. * Special Attack: When in control of a grapple, the tail may be used as a primary light weapon to attack, without the -4 penalty for using a light weapon in a grapple. * Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. * Racial bonus of +2 to Spot and Balance. Fine bristles on the carapace act as balance organs, and their compound eyes allow them to have a greater awareness of their surroundings. * Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Kelikeran * Favored Class: Ranger What ways are there to ensure that the Kelikeran off-hand pincer doesn't lapse into obscurity in later levels?
doneisi 02-20-08, 07:28 PM	What ways are there to ensure that the Kelikeran off-hand pincer doesn't lapse into obscurity in later levels? They could molt and get bigger(shield like fiddler crab) or better(harder sharper) ones.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-20-08, 09:11 PM	They could molt and get bigger(shield like fiddler crab) or better(harder sharper) ones. Should those be feats, or written into the race? For example, at 6HD they choose either the sword or shield hand, and then at 15HD it gets better, or maybe they can make it a Bonded Item (as per DMGII)... What would be the best way to reflect that?
ragoftag 02-21-08, 10:06 AM	So.... Racial feats would possibly include: Claw hand (core race having 2 hands) Improved claw hand (full BAB) Defensive claw hand (count as spiked buckler or such) Tail and claw (bonus to hit or free attack if grabbed?) Improved Poison (higher DC) Different Poison (very short list of alternative poisons) Improved Natural armor I actually visualize a centaur-like scorpion with a humanoid torso + in place of it's claws and head. Individuals would manifest claw hands, etc. Mine were based on some figures I bought for Runequest (?) and were of troll height, but there is no reason not to make these Medium with Small upper bodies (reverse of Dwarves). having to use smaller weapons, etc would bring down their LA and 'Quadruped' would grant them bonuses to Balance...I think. Dropping them to Small/Tiny would make them fit a niche not currently occupied, but might jump the LA. Cross-Posting a feat to Feats dealing with races with Cha penalties: Born to Sorcery Prerequisite: Racial penalty to Charisma, GM designated race. Benefit: Despite your racial penalty to Charisma, you do not suffer up to a -2 when factoring for the Class: Sorcerer. This applies to Spells, DCs, etc as mentioned in the Sorcerer Class, but not to skills or other checks. Special: This may be taken once per Racial Penalty to the charisma modifier.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-21-08, 12:30 PM	D&D Scorpionfolk are already scorpio-centaurs, so I'm not going that way with it. But those are all good ideas for possible racial feats... I'll have to work up prereq's.
ciaran 02-21-08, 06:08 PM	Your latest version has shaped up immensly from the first. Well done. As far as improving the Pincer hand, which is good considering they're stuck with it, it could improve as HD increase. Something like the monk but reaching perhaps a maximum of d10. 1-4: d4 5-9: d6 10-14: d8 15-20: d10 epic:2d6 alternatively at higher levels a confirmed critical could grant some kind of Rend damage or free grapple check.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-21-08, 06:37 PM	And perhaps for the buckler version... 1-4: Buckler 5-9: Spiked Buckler 10-14: Small Shield 15-20: Spiked Small Shield With the option at character creation to take one or the other. Should I add in those tables?
AtsuiShoto 02-21-08, 09:24 PM	Improved Grab at some high hit dice, maybe? That's a free grapple check on a successful claw attack. With everything else already on there, I would say this puts the kelikera solidly in the high end of the +0 LA bracket (up there with elf variants, orcs, and mongrelfolk) The buckler thing... is interesting. However, I'm wondering why the claw would be getting bigger? Heck, racial progressions NEVER made sense to me, except to include weaker "toddler" and "adolescent" versions of a race in a campaign. Some races make sense to continue growing, like dragons with their incredibly long life-spans. Otherwise, it just seems weird.
doneisi 02-21-08, 09:24 PM	You might want to also include how long it takes to regrow their claws.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-21-08, 09:52 PM	Improved Grab at some high hit dice, maybe? That's a free grapple check on a successful claw attack. With everything else already on there, I would say this puts the kelikera solidly in the high end of the +0 LA bracket (up there with elf variants, orcs, and mongrelfolk) The buckler thing... is interesting. However, I'm wondering why the claw would be getting bigger? Heck, racial progressions NEVER made sense to me, except to include weaker "toddler" and "adolescent" versions of a race in a campaign. Some races make sense to continue growing, like dragons with their incredibly long life-spans. Otherwise, it just seems weird. Improved Grab would be nice. Whereabouts should it fall? The growing claw thing is based more on molting and growing, but if it makes more sense, I'll cut that out and throw in improved grab. I just figured I should leave an option for non-ranger characters, and couldn't think of a better way to do it than with racially specific equipment.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-22-08, 12:07 PM	* -2 Charisma: Kelikera have a startling appearance to others, and relate poorly with those of all races, including their own, because of their innately suspicious nature. * Monstrous Humanoid (Scorpion): An amalgam of man and scorpion, the Kelikera have a tail and sometimes pincers, and their body is covered with a chitinous carapace. * Medium: As Medium creatures, Kelikera have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Carapace: DR:1/bludgeoning * Kelikera base land speed is 30 ft. * Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, injury poison 1/2 HD+Con, initial damage 2 Dex, secondary damage 2 Dex. When making a full attack, the tail makes an attack at a -5 penalty for being a secondary natural weapon. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to -2, and a Kelikeran Ranger may take the Multiattack tree in place of the Two-Weapon Fighting tree for Combat Style. * Pincer Hand: A Kelikera cannot wield weapons in their off hand, and instead gains a natural slam attack of 1d4. The pincer gives the Kelikera +4 to maintain control of a grapple. At character creation, the development of the pincer must be chosen, either as weapon or as shield. Advancements are as follows... -Weapon 1-4: d4 5-9: d6 10-14: d8, plus Improved Grap 15-20: d10 epic:2d6 -Shield 1-4: Buckler 5-9: Spiked Buckler 10-14: Small Shield, plus Shield Bash 15-20: Spiked Small Shield epic: Large Shield After reaching a new advancement, the pincer cannot be used for 1d4-Con modifier days, minimum of one, as the chitinous shell hardens after molting. * Special Attack: When in control of a grapple, the tail may be used as a primary natural weapon to attack, without the -4 penalty for using a light weapon in a grapple. * Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. * Environmental Familiarity: Kelikerans have +1 to saves to resist spells with the word "sand" in the spell title or description, and +1 caster level to cast the same. * Racial bonus of +2 to Spot and Balance. Fine bristles on the carapace act as balance organs, and their compound eyes allow them to have a greater awareness of their surroundings. * Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Kelikeran * Favored Class: Ranger Getting close to a final build? I'm already starting to work up the next race I'm going to work on, and maybe throw in some more Kelikera flavor text.
ciaran 02-22-08, 06:50 PM	He's becoming quite a potent threat at higher levels... Is there any incentive to play something non-martial?
Maeglin_Dubh 02-22-08, 07:18 PM	Spot and Balance bonus, in addition to poison, may make Rogue worthwhile... I don't know, really. Not much incentive towards magic, but clerics and wizards aren't bad, with the lack of a penalty to wisdom or intelligence, and the ability to defend themselves. Suggestions? EDIT: I will point out that the natural weapon or shield can't really be enchanted...
ciaran 02-22-08, 10:44 PM	I just thought of something! If the Ranger takes Multiattack, how does that progress at levels 6 and 11?
Maeglin_Dubh 02-22-08, 10:55 PM	Well, I specified the Multiattack Tree... There is an Improved Multiattack, but the third slot is empty. Improved Natural Weapon (Tail) maybe? I think there's actually a precedent set here by variant ranger combat styles, so a Kelikeran style wouldn't be out of line.
LunarWolfPrime 02-23-08, 10:47 AM	sandstorm Q how does the whole Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. Thing effet the dehydration rules.
ciaran 02-23-08, 11:04 AM	This might be lame, but you know how the Raptoran has an ability to increase its spells with the [Air] descriptor? Do these guys live in the desert? Maybe find some sand-themed spells and give them +1 DC or +1 caster level.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-23-08, 12:15 PM	This might be lame, but you know how the Raptoran has an ability to increase its spells with the [Air] descriptor? Do these guys live in the desert? Maybe find some sand-themed spells and give them +1 DC or +1 caster level. Well, since I haven't thought of anything better..... * Environmental Familiarity: Kelikerans have +1 to saves to resist spells with the word "sand" in the spell title or description, and +1 caster level to cast the same.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-23-08, 12:21 PM	sandstorm Q how does the whole Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. Thing effet the dehydration rules. They would, under normal circumstances, not begin to become dehydrated until that time had elapsed. If you're playing in Sandstorm, and your GM feels that too much of the challenge is removed by that racial trait, maybe halve it due to the extreme nature of the deserts where Sandstorm takes place. Sure, they got used to going without water by living in the desert. But those are some hard-core deserts, man.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-23-08, 10:21 PM	* -2 Charisma: Kelikera have a startling appearance to others, and relate poorly with those of all races, including their own, because of their innately suspicious nature. * Monstrous Humanoid (Scorpion): An amalgam of man and scorpion, the Kelikera have a tail and sometimes pincers, and their body is covered with a chitinous carapace. * Medium: As Medium creatures, Kelikera have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Carapace: DR:1/bludgeoning * Kelikera base land speed is 30 ft. * Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, injury poison 1/2 HD+Con, initial damage 2 Dex, secondary damage 2 Dex. When making a full attack, the tail makes an attack at a -5 penalty for being a secondary natural weapon. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to -2, and a Kelikeran Ranger may take the Multiattack tree in place of the Two-Weapon Fighting tree for Combat Style. * Pincer Hand: A Kelikera cannot wield weapons in their off hand, and instead gains a natural slam attack of 1d4. The pincer gives the Kelikera +4 to maintain control of a grapple. At character creation, the development of the pincer must be chosen, either as weapon or as shield. Advancements are as follows... -Weapon 1-4: d4 5-9: d6 10-14: d8, plus Improved Grap 15-20: d10 epic:2d6 -Shield 1-4: Buckler 5-9: Spiked Buckler 10-14: Small Shield, plus Shield Bash 15-20: Spiked Small Shield epic: Large Shield After reaching a new advancement, the pincer cannot be used for 1d4-Con modifier days, minimum of one, as the chitinous shell hardens after molting. * Special Attack: When in control of a grapple, the tail may be used as a primary natural weapon to attack, without the -4 penalty for using a light weapon in a grapple. * Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. * Environmental Familiarity: Kelikerans have +1 to saves to resist spells with the word "sand" in the spell title or description, and +1 caster level to cast the same. * Racial bonus of +2 to Spot and Balance. Fine bristles on the carapace act as balance organs, and their compound eyes allow them to have a greater awareness of their surroundings. * Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Kelikeran * Favored Class: Ranger How's that look for a finish?
AtsuiShoto 02-24-08, 05:28 PM	It looks awesome! VERY nice, well-rounded, flavorful package. However, with its huge collection of small benefits, accumulating bigger benefits at high levels, the kelikera now look a bit like a weak +1 LA race, or at least a race that's too strong for +0. Hm, I'll have to think it through more deeply, mull over just why it is or isn't too strong.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-24-08, 08:29 PM	Well, if you can help me keep it down, that would be great. I think one of the things keeping it down is that the off-hand can't be enchanted, unless you're a monk with Ki Strike; not sure if that's enough of a drawback. Incidentally, they can't really use bows. Not sure if that helps, or if I forgot to put that in there... Two-handed weapons in general don't work with one hand being a pincer.
ciaran 02-24-08, 11:27 PM	So they are incapable of using melee weapons two-handed and from loading any range weapon. They would have difficulty holding many kinds of misc items in the pincer hand as well. Climbing may prove difficult. Anything else?
Maeglin_Dubh 02-24-08, 11:42 PM	Not that I can think of... should I put in a climb penalty?
AtsuiShoto 02-25-08, 12:00 AM	You may want to specifically address everything ciaran mentioned (including a climb penalty). I hadn't even realized just how limiting that pincer hand is (which may be just fine, considering everything the race has in its favor)
Maeglin_Dubh 02-25-08, 01:11 AM	* -2 Charisma: Kelikera have a startling appearance to others, and relate poorly with those of all races, including their own, because of their innately suspicious nature. * Monstrous Humanoid (Scorpion): An amalgam of man and scorpion, the Kelikera have a tail and sometimes pincers, and their body is covered with a chitinous carapace. * Medium: As Medium creatures, Kelikera have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Carapace: DR:1/bludgeoning * Kelikera base land speed is 30 ft. * Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, injury poison 1/2 HD+Con, initial damage 2 Dex, secondary damage 2 Dex. When making a full attack, the tail makes an attack at a -5 penalty for being a secondary natural weapon. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to -2, and a Kelikeran Ranger may take the Multiattack tree in place of the Two-Weapon Fighting tree for Combat Style. * Pincer Hand: A Kelikera cannot wield weapons in their off hand, and instead gains a natural slam attack of 1d4. Kelikera can also not use any two-handed weapons, and their pincer is not considered free for the purposes of reloading a ranged weapon (i.e. a crossbow). The pincer gives the Kelikera +4 to maintain control of a grapple. At character creation, the development of the pincer must be chosen, either as weapon or as shield. Advancements are as follows... -Weapon 1-4: d4 5-9: d6 10-14: d8, plus Improved Grap 15-20: d10 epic:2d6 -Shield 1-4: Buckler 5-9: Spiked Buckler 10-14: Small Shield, plus Shield Bash 15-20: Spiked Small Shield epic: Large Shield After reaching a new advancement, the pincer cannot be used for 1d4-Con modifier days, minimum of one, as the chitinous shell hardens after molting. * Special Attack: When in control of a grapple, the tail may be used as a primary natural weapon to attack, without the -4 penalty for using a light weapon in a grapple. * Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. * Environmental Familiarity: Kelikerans have +1 to saves to resist spells with the word "sand" in the spell title or description, and +1 caster level to cast the same. * Racial penalty of -4 to Climb checks where using both hands is required. The pincer allows less fine control on handholds, as well as on holding a rope. * Vibrational Awareness: A Kelikera has a limited ability to sense his surroundings by vibrations in the ground. As long as he is touching the ground, he can take a move action to sense the number of creatures within 20 feet that are also touching the ground and the direction to each one. The specific locations of these creatures cannot be pinpointed with this ability. * Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Kelikeran * Favored Class: Ranger or Druid. Either may choose a Scorpion of appropriate HD as an Animal Companion. One must be chosen at first level and cannot be changed afterwards.
ciaran 02-25-08, 08:31 AM	Sorry, I wasn't trying to mess up your race. There was mention from AtsuiShoto about being somewhere between +0 and +1 LA. I hope its firmly anchored in +0 now. :D
Maeglin_Dubh 02-25-08, 09:09 AM	No, that's totally understandable. So does this look final now?
Maeglin_Dubh 02-25-08, 02:47 PM	Discovered something today.... Scorpions do -not- have compound eyes. "...Scorpions have two eyes on the top of the head, and usually two to five pairs of eyes along the front corners of the head. They do not see well, however, and must rely on the sense of touch, using their pectines and other organs for navigation and hunting.... ...They detect and capture prey by the sense of touch. They also have a well-developed sense of hearing...." http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/l-1678.html Should this affect how I have the bonuses set up? And I forgot all about Tremorsense, like an idiot... I was about to make a character with this as an experiment, so I'm glad I came across this first.
AtsuiShoto 02-25-08, 05:00 PM	Maybe drop the Spot and Balance bonuses, and just give a dumbed down version of tremorsense. You may want to give the Earth Sense feat [Races of Stone] as a racial bonus feat, or otherwise look to it for inspiration. Oh, and I've come around: I now agree that kelikera are a balanced (on the strong side) +0 LA race.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-25-08, 05:13 PM	How dumbed down? And as Bonus Feat, do you mean it comes with the package, or they can select it as a race?
AtsuiShoto 02-25-08, 06:40 PM	Earth Sense is an actual feat from Races of Stone. I think the mechanics of that feat are perfectly suited to the sensory hairs (given that the sensory hairs are a feature of a race that isn't actually a scorpion, only similar to it). I wish I could just outright post the feat, but I doubt that would be kosher. Edit: Never mind, I actually did find it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=5):You are in tune with the earth beneath you. Prerequisites: Con 13, Wis 13. Benefit: As long as you are touching the ground, you can take a move action to sense the number of creatures within 20 feet that are also touching the ground and the direction to each one. You cannot pinpoint the location of any creature with this feat. Special: Creatures with the air or aquatic subtype may not select this feat.So anyway, since it's an existing feat, my suggestion was to give it to the kelikera for free, in lieu of the spot and balance bonuses.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-25-08, 06:52 PM	"* Racial bonus of +2 to Spot and Balance. Fine bristles on the carapace act as balance organs, and their compound eyes allow them to have a greater awareness of their surroundings." Becomes... Vibrational Awareness: A Kelikera has a limited ability to sense his surroundings by vibrations in the ground. As long as he is touching the ground, he can take a move action to sense the number of creatures within 20 feet that are also touching the ground and the direction to each one. The specific locations of these creatures cannot be pinpointed with this ability. This should be it..... http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15181265&postcount=50
Maeglin_Dubh 02-26-08, 09:46 AM	Kelikera We're not the only ones out to get us. You're all in on it, too. Kelikera are bipedal humanoids with several scorpion-like traits. Kelikera have the same height range as humans, but also usually weigh slightly more due to their carapace. The carapace itself is usually dark brown to black, and covers the entire body. They have two primary eyes, and some have additional light-sensing organs around their head. Rather than a human mouth, Kelikera have razor-sharp mandibles. One hand is actually in the form of a scorpion's pincer, and the Kelikera treat this as their non-dominant hand. KELIKERAN RACIAL TRAITS · -2 Charisma: Kelikera have a startling appearance to others, and relate poorly with those of all races, including their own, because of their innately suspicious nature. · Medium: As Medium creatures, Kelikera have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. · Monstrous Humanoid (Scorpion): An amalgam of man and scorpion, the Kelikera have a tail and sometimes pincers, and their body is covered with a chitinous carapace. · Kelikeran base land speed is 30 ft. · Carapace: DR1/bludgeoning · Natural Weapons: Tail, 1d4 piercing, injury poison 1/2 HD+Con, initial damage 2 Dex, secondary damage 2 Dex. When making a full attack, the tail makes an attack at a -5 penalty for being a secondary natural weapon. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to -2, and a Kelikeran Ranger may take the Multiattack tree in place of the Two-Weapon Fighting tree for Combat Style. · Pincer Hand: A Kelikera cannot wield weapons in their off hand, and instead gains a natural slam attack of 1d4. Kelikera can also not use any two-handed weapons, and their pincer is not considered free for the purposes of reloading a ranged weapon (i.e. a crossbow). The pincer gives the Kelikera +4 to maintain control of a grapple. At character creation, the development of the pincer must be chosen, either as weapon or as shield. Advancements are as follows... -Weapon 1-4: d4 5-9: d6 10-14: d8, plus Improved Grap 15-20: d10 epic:2d6 -Shield 1-4: Buckler 5-9: Spiked Buckler 10-14: Small Shield, plus Shield Bash 15-20: Spiked Small Shield epic: Large Shield After reaching a new advancement, the pincer cannot be used for 1d4-Con modifier days, minimum of one, as the chitinous shell hardens after molting. · Scorpion Strike: When in control of a grapple, the tail may be used as a primary natural weapon to attack, without the -4 penalty for using a light weapon in a grapple. · Needs less water than most races: can go without water for a number of days equal to 4+Con modifier, minimum of 4. · Environmental Familiarity: Kelikerans have +1 to saves to resist spells with the word "sand" in the spell title or description, and +1 caster level to cast the same. · Racial penalty of -4 to Climb checks where using both hands is required. The pincer allows less fine control on handholds, as well as on holding a rope. · Vibrational Awareness: A Kelikera has a limited ability to sense his surroundings by vibrations in the ground. As long as he is touching the ground, he can take a move action to sense the number of creatures within 20 feet that are also touching the ground and the direction to each one. The specific locations of these creatures cannot be pinpointed with this ability. · Automatic Languages: Common, Kelikeran. Bonus Languages: Regionally dependent · Favored Class: Ranger or Druid. Either may choose a Scorpion of appropriate HD as an Animal Companion. One must be chosen at first level and cannot be changed afterwards. STARTING AGE Adulthood: 16 Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer: +1d4 Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger: +1d6 Cleric, Druid, Monk, Wizard: +2d4 AGING EFFECTS Middle Age: 45 Old: 65 Venerable: 80 Maximum Age: 100+2d6 . HEIGHT AND WEIGHT Base Length: 5"8' Length Modifier: +-1.5' Base Weight: 200 Weight Modifier: +-60 KELIKERAN CHARACTERS Kelikeran are hardy travellers, and capable of defending themselves with sting and claw. Adventuring Race: Some Kelikera go on adventures simply to get away from other Kelikera, or from a given area they are particularly suspicious of. Others are just looking for a chance to act first, rather than waiting for disaster to sneak up on them. Character Development: Kelikera tend to try to be as self-sufficient as possible. Whenever you can, make sure you carry your own supplies, your own healing, replacement weapons if necessary. Character Names: Kelikera are almost always named by the mother, the only parent around when birth occurs. Names vary regionally, and are often given based on local popular names for other races. ROLEPLAYING A KELIKERA Quick generalization about playing a member of this race. Personality: Kelikera are, generally speaking, suspicious. Not only of others, but also of each other. When they mate, it is purely for procreation, and rarely do the parents stay together. The mother is very protective of her developing children, and often suspects the father of wanting to kill the children; accordingly, the father often leaves before the mother decides to kill him. Behaviors: Always on the lookout, Kelikera betray their suspicion by constantly trying to be aware of where everyone in the party is at all times. Some Kelikera who spend a great deal of time with other races eventually become bodyguards, and some even learn that not everyone is out to get them. Language: Kelikeran language consists of hisses, chitters, and waving of the mandibles and chelicerae. KELIKERAN SOCIETY Description of this races society, culture, and civilization. Alignment : Kelikera tend towards chaos, doing whatever they have to to escape their enemies, real and unreal. Lands : Deserts Settlements : When not in the desert, they prefer mountainous or underground environments. Beliefs : Some Kelikera believe that even the gods themselves are out to get them. This leads to differing reactions among them. Relations: Kelikera are suspicious of most races, but they will make deals and trades with them. They usually require abnormal collateral to ensure that deals will not be broken. Kelikera who adventure abroad largely tend to keep to themselves, and even with an adventuring party, often scout ahead or take on functions that will leave them independent of the main party.
ciaran 02-26-08, 01:14 PM	Looks good.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-27-08, 09:43 PM	Should they treat scorpion claws (exotic weapons from Sandstorm) as martial weapons?