Kitsune (P.E.A.C.H.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kitsune (P.E.A.C.H.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aleolus
10-29-07, 01:43 AM OK, I come up with some of the weirdest things while I am at work. Here are the Kitsune, fox spirit creatures from Japanese mythology.

Kitsune
Medium Outsider
+2 Dex, +4 Cha
40 feet
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision
Scent
Disguise Self (Any humanoid form, but their tail remains) and Prestidigitation at will
Racial +4 on Bluff, Disguise and Sense Motive checks, and on Spot checks made to pierce a disguise of some sort.
Outsider Traits: Though Kitsune call the Material plane home, they do not possess the Native subtype, allowing them to retain all of the benefits of being an Outsider, applying the Material plane as their home plane.
Alignment: Usually Chaotic Neutral, but can be any Chaotic.
Favored Class: Bard or Rouge
Level Adjustment: +1
Lokathor
10-29-07, 01:46 AM Shapechange at will, LA+4? yes please.

Also, outsiders with the material plane as a home plane are basically the exact definition of a native outsider.
Aleolus
10-29-07, 01:54 AM Not enough of a LA? What would be appropriate, then? Or should I just limit the shapechange?
Fireclave
10-29-07, 02:02 AM If you are refering to the Shapechange spell, drop it completely. No race intended for play should have a abilities that strong at will, let alone 9th level spells, let alone one of the most overpowered spells in the game.
Aleolus
10-29-07, 02:16 AM Well, my thought was that Kitsune are masters of disguise and can take any form they want, though some are more difficult than others. Maybe I should give them Alter Self and Prestidigitation at will, Shapechange 1/day, and Planar Shift 3/day?
Fireclave
10-29-07, 02:36 AM Shapechange is flat out brokenly powerful, even at once per day. Shapechange does so much more than disguise that it's not funny. It gives you access to such great number of supernatural and spell-like abilities that no creature should have unless they are a high enough level to cast 9th level spells, and maybe not even then.

Alterself, as well, is a very powerful effect as well if you know how to (ab)use it. If you want to make them masters of disguise, model them after Changlings (Eberron Campaign Setting). They get disguise self at will and are LA+0. According to some stories, kitsunes cannot hide their tails. Disguise Self does not allow you to change your body type, so a kitsune tails would remain unhidden, which is a good match flavorwise.

Also, why Plane Shift? And why 3/day? I'm just not sure how that fits with the mythos.
Bahumut
10-29-07, 02:38 AM ...why wouldnt polymorph be able to achieve what you want for the race? the reason people are giving you a hard time is that shapechange give you ALL extrordinary AND supernatural attacks and qualities of the new form. every supplement that comes out with new creatures in it has a chance to add a new supernatural power that would completely break the game in the hands of a player. shapechange is one of the ways punpunism is achieved. just to let you know.
Lokathor
10-29-07, 09:27 AM Not enough of a LA? What would be appropriate, then? Or should I just limit the shapechange?

Let me put it this way: I'd play a LA +10 race if its only ability was Shapechange at will.
RobbyPants
10-29-07, 09:46 AM I think if you take out the Shape Change, you're probably hanging around at LA +3. I don't see why you can't use either Disguise Self or Alter Self instead. Of course, I guess my only experience with Kitsune is from MtG, so maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about ;).
Dog_O_War
10-29-07, 10:11 AM Instead of doing this as a P.E.A.C.H. why don't you just look them up in the 3.0 Oriental Advetures book, and give those an update.
queenfange
10-29-07, 04:43 PM Instead of doing this as a P.E.A.C.H. why don't you just look them up in the 3.0 Oriental Advetures book, and give those an update.

'Cause I have OA and it doesn't have kitsune in them, at least not in the same why this person envisions them? Point is taken though; the hengeyokai (yeah, my spelling is probably off here) of the fox type would fit the general idea decently well.

Oh, "weirdest things"? I think for some DMs, fox people are right behind cat people on the list of obnoxious, uncreative characters based off of Japanese stuff (anime, mythology, manga, etc.) that they'd love to ban. Not that I know any DMs like that... :rolleyes:

The polymorph self twice per day still seems too powerful for LA +3, in my opinion. Have you compared them to similar LA races? I mean, drow are a +2, and they're a fair amount weaker than that. I believe the swirvneblin (butchering spelling today), at least in Forgotten Realms, had a +3 LA, so I'd recommend taking a look at them.
dknight100
10-29-07, 05:08 PM Letsee... maybe its in the Rokugan campaign book, if not OA, but i recall seeing a rather well done way to make a Kitsune in there. I even had one statted out to be a character, but sadly, the person who said they would run an Oriental campaign never got around to it.

::EDIT:: IIRC, they have some fun things for them (and no, in human form they don't have fox ears, so don't worry, they're not an anthroPC) such as advanced forms (i.e. 9 tails) and there is also rules in there for taking restrictions in return for other benefits. For example, the one i had made, named Keaton (for the fox mask in Zelda: OoT), was a 9-tailed kitsune, black and white in colouring. He had been orphaned, and taken in by a human clan, and now works as spy for them - however, his restrictions were that he could only dress in clothes that resemble his natural colours (i.e. black and white), and he couldn't tell a lie.
GhostSound
11-04-07, 07:10 PM Best way of going about this idea, in my opinion is a +0 LA Fox Hengeyoukai (though I particularly dislike level adjustment)...

+2 Dex, -2 Wis. They're agile but flighty. Though some are portrayed as charismatic, its the social ones that hang out with humans that get all the attention in the mythology.

- Normal speeds... 30ft in human, 40ft in fox form. I see no reason why they'd be any faster in human form.

- Low-light vision.

- Humanoid subtype. Is thus not immune to "Person" spells like Hold Person, which was one of the main reasons for the +1 LA in 3.0 Oriental Adventures.

- Alternate Form: Can take on fox, human or hybrid forms, and does not benefit from the as-if-she-rested healing that you normally get. Basically a very limited Polymorph Self.
Aleolus
11-05-07, 02:11 AM Ah, but those abilities don't explain their various Fox magic, nor does it take into account how good they are at hiding and disguising things. I updated the op to include some modifications a friend of mine informed me of, and dropped them down to a +2 LA. How do they look now?
Fireclave
11-05-07, 09:41 PM OK, I come up with some of the weirdest things while I am at work. Here are the Kitsune, fox spirit creatures from Japanese mythology.

Kitsune
Medium Outsider
+2 Dex, +4 Cha
40 feet
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision
Scent
Alter Self (only humanoid forms, cannot get rid of their tails) and Prestidigitation at will
Racial +4 on Bluff, Disguise and Sense Motive checks, and on Spot checks made to pierce a disguise of some sort.

The LA is still too low, imo, compared to races of similar ECL, like the +2 LA catfolk. The unbalanced stats and scent, by themselves, are worth about +1 LA each. The racial bonuses to skills are very high as well. If it were one or two at at +4 it wouldn't be so bad, but a total of +12 static bonuses plus a +4 conditional bonus is too high to ignore when considering LA.

Alterself is still a very strong ability to have at will since it effectively gives them physical stat bonus, natural armor, and additional racial abilities as well. Specifically swim speeds (and the accompying +8 bonus to swim checks), fly speeds, and probably a burrow speed as well. Alterself at will is at least worth +2 LA on its own, regardless of how the rest of the race pans out.

Altogether though, this race feels like it should be +4 LA. If you replaced alterself with something a bit less powerful, like Disguise Self, and toned the racial bonuses or removed one of the abilities, I could see this easily being a LA +2 race.

Outsider Traits: Though Kitsune call the Material plane home, they do not possess the Native subtype, allowing them to retain all of the benefits of being an Outsider, applying the Material plane as their home plane.

Which is long-winded way of saying your Kitsunes are Native Outsiders that don't need to eat, sleep, and breath, and can't be raised. You really wouldn't lose much by making them Native Outsiders, and if your planning on having players play a kitsune adventurer, giving them the native subtype will save your group some headaches/heartbreak later on.

Ah, but those abilities don't explain their various Fox magic, nor does it take into account how good they are at hiding and disguising things.
Fox magic can be easily applied by making their favorite class sorcerer. They easily have the charisma for it.

:twocents:
Aleolus
11-06-07, 02:18 AM But, I specified that they can only use Alter Self to appear as humanoids, which rules out most of the races that have decent fly/swim speeds, all of the races with burrow speeds, and almost all races with more than one or two points of natural armor.

And the big thing I was trying to imply with my description of them being Outsiders is the fact that an Outsider killed off of it's native plane does not actually die, it is simply forced back to it's native plane, and can return when given the chance to. The Kitsune are the same way, however the plane they can be permanently killed on is the material plane.
Fireclave
11-06-07, 04:04 AM But, I specified that they can only use Alter Self to appear as humanoids, which rules out most of the races that have decent fly/swim speeds, all of the races with burrow speeds, and almost all races with more than one or two points of natural armor.
Just sticking to the SRD, you have these fine choices:

Troglodyte: +4 con, -2 dex, +6 Natural Armor, claws, bite
Bugbear: +4 str, +2 dex, +2 con, +4 bonus to move silently
Kobold: -4 str, -2 con, +2 dex, claws, slight build, bite, +1 natural armor, small size
Aquatic Elf: +4 dex, 40ft swim speed, gills
Merfolk: 50ft swim speed, amphibious
Locathah: 60ft swim speed, +3 natural armor
Jungle Goblins: 20ft climb speed, small size, -2 str, +2 con

Swim and climb speeds are covered, as well as the +8 bonus to swim and climb checks that come with speeds. Your kitsunes can just stay in Troglodyte form 24/7 to enjoy +4 con, natural weapons, and a overall +5 bonus to AC. And for stealth, they can go kobold and enjoy the benefits of being tiny instead of small whenever it would benefit them to do so (see the RotD web enhancement), effectively adding a +8 hide modifier to their abilities.

And that's not even trying. For more reasons not to give them Alterself, click here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246). 50ft flying speeds and 20ft burrowing speeds are well within the range of abilities they can get access to. Also note that since your kitsune are actually outsiders, if they get the ability to cast Alterself via class levels, they get even more options.

And the big thing I was trying to imply with my description of them being Outsiders is the fact that an Outsider killed off of it's native plane does not actually die, it is simply forced back to it's native plane, and can return when given the chance to. The Kitsune are the same way, however the plane they can be permanently killed on is the material plane.
I see now. I'd forgotten about that. But unless your games heavily involve planar travel, it probably wouldn't become an issue to often. At the same time, that is a very powerful ability for high level, plane-jumping adventurers to have since it esentially gives them a free 1up diamond each time they take their questing to another plane.
Aleolus
11-06-07, 01:10 PM OK, swapped Alter Self for Disguise self, stating they can appear as any humanoid, but they keep their tails regardless of their form. Maybe that would drop down their LA a bit, now? I'd rather they be a +1 or 2, rather than a 4, since higher LAs are much more difficult to play.
Finfreeze
11-06-07, 01:34 PM I'd say...that it's about LA +1 now. Disguise Self isn't anything to worry about (hat of disguise is only ~2000 gp), the ability mods are comfortably within the LA +1 range, and the other abilities round it out.

Eyeballing the version with Alter Self...that was about LA +2 at most.

The LA is still too low, imo, compared to races of similar ECL, like the +2 LA catfolk.
...Aren't catfolk only LA +1, and not that great at that? I mean, you nix the charisma bonus and tone down the dex bonus to +2, and it would seem to be a decent LA +0 race.

Your kitsunes can just stay in Troglodyte form 24/7 to enjoy +4 con, natural weapons, and a overall +5 bonus to AC.
You keep your ability scores while using alter self.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aleolus 10-29-07, 01:43 AM	OK, I come up with some of the weirdest things while I am at work. Here are the Kitsune, fox spirit creatures from Japanese mythology. Kitsune Medium Outsider +2 Dex, +4 Cha 40 feet Low-Light Vision Darkvision Scent Disguise Self (Any humanoid form, but their tail remains) and Prestidigitation at will Racial +4 on Bluff, Disguise and Sense Motive checks, and on Spot checks made to pierce a disguise of some sort. Outsider Traits: Though Kitsune call the Material plane home, they do not possess the Native subtype, allowing them to retain all of the benefits of being an Outsider, applying the Material plane as their home plane. Alignment: Usually Chaotic Neutral, but can be any Chaotic. Favored Class: Bard or Rouge Level Adjustment: +1
Lokathor 10-29-07, 01:46 AM	Shapechange at will, LA+4? yes please. Also, outsiders with the material plane as a home plane are basically the exact definition of a native outsider.
Aleolus 10-29-07, 01:54 AM	Not enough of a LA? What would be appropriate, then? Or should I just limit the shapechange?
Fireclave 10-29-07, 02:02 AM	If you are refering to the Shapechange spell, drop it completely. No race intended for play should have a abilities that strong at will, let alone 9th level spells, let alone one of the most overpowered spells in the game.
Aleolus 10-29-07, 02:16 AM	Well, my thought was that Kitsune are masters of disguise and can take any form they want, though some are more difficult than others. Maybe I should give them Alter Self and Prestidigitation at will, Shapechange 1/day, and Planar Shift 3/day?
Fireclave 10-29-07, 02:36 AM	Shapechange is flat out brokenly powerful, even at once per day. Shapechange does so much more than disguise that it's not funny. It gives you access to such great number of supernatural and spell-like abilities that no creature should have unless they are a high enough level to cast 9th level spells, and maybe not even then. Alterself, as well, is a very powerful effect as well if you know how to (ab)use it. If you want to make them masters of disguise, model them after Changlings (Eberron Campaign Setting). They get disguise self at will and are LA+0. According to some stories, kitsunes cannot hide their tails. Disguise Self does not allow you to change your body type, so a kitsune tails would remain unhidden, which is a good match flavorwise. Also, why Plane Shift? And why 3/day? I'm just not sure how that fits with the mythos.
Bahumut 10-29-07, 02:38 AM	...why wouldnt polymorph be able to achieve what you want for the race? the reason people are giving you a hard time is that shapechange give you ALL extrordinary AND supernatural attacks and qualities of the new form. every supplement that comes out with new creatures in it has a chance to add a new supernatural power that would completely break the game in the hands of a player. shapechange is one of the ways punpunism is achieved. just to let you know.
Lokathor 10-29-07, 09:27 AM	Not enough of a LA? What would be appropriate, then? Or should I just limit the shapechange? Let me put it this way: I'd play a LA +10 race if its only ability was Shapechange at will.
RobbyPants 10-29-07, 09:46 AM	I think if you take out the Shape Change, you're probably hanging around at LA +3. I don't see why you can't use either Disguise Self or Alter Self instead. Of course, I guess my only experience with Kitsune is from MtG, so maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about ;).
Dog_O_War 10-29-07, 10:11 AM	Instead of doing this as a P.E.A.C.H. why don't you just look them up in the 3.0 Oriental Advetures book, and give those an update.
queenfange 10-29-07, 04:43 PM	Instead of doing this as a P.E.A.C.H. why don't you just look them up in the 3.0 Oriental Advetures book, and give those an update. 'Cause I have OA and it doesn't have kitsune in them, at least not in the same why this person envisions them? Point is taken though; the hengeyokai (yeah, my spelling is probably off here) of the fox type would fit the general idea decently well. Oh, "weirdest things"? I think for some DMs, fox people are right behind cat people on the list of obnoxious, uncreative characters based off of Japanese stuff (anime, mythology, manga, etc.) that they'd love to ban. Not that I know any DMs like that... :rolleyes: The polymorph self twice per day still seems too powerful for LA +3, in my opinion. Have you compared them to similar LA races? I mean, drow are a +2, and they're a fair amount weaker than that. I believe the swirvneblin (butchering spelling today), at least in Forgotten Realms, had a +3 LA, so I'd recommend taking a look at them.
dknight100 10-29-07, 05:08 PM	Letsee... maybe its in the Rokugan campaign book, if not OA, but i recall seeing a rather well done way to make a Kitsune in there. I even had one statted out to be a character, but sadly, the person who said they would run an Oriental campaign never got around to it. ::EDIT:: IIRC, they have some fun things for them (and no, in human form they don't have fox ears, so don't worry, they're not an anthroPC) such as advanced forms (i.e. 9 tails) and there is also rules in there for taking restrictions in return for other benefits. For example, the one i had made, named Keaton (for the fox mask in Zelda: OoT), was a 9-tailed kitsune, black and white in colouring. He had been orphaned, and taken in by a human clan, and now works as spy for them - however, his restrictions were that he could only dress in clothes that resemble his natural colours (i.e. black and white), and he couldn't tell a lie.
GhostSound 11-04-07, 07:10 PM	Best way of going about this idea, in my opinion is a +0 LA Fox Hengeyoukai (though I particularly dislike level adjustment)... +2 Dex, -2 Wis. They're agile but flighty. Though some are portrayed as charismatic, its the social ones that hang out with humans that get all the attention in the mythology. - Normal speeds... 30ft in human, 40ft in fox form. I see no reason why they'd be any faster in human form. - Low-light vision. - Humanoid subtype. Is thus not immune to "Person" spells like Hold Person, which was one of the main reasons for the +1 LA in 3.0 Oriental Adventures. - Alternate Form: Can take on fox, human or hybrid forms, and does not benefit from the as-if-she-rested healing that you normally get. Basically a very limited Polymorph Self.
Aleolus 11-05-07, 02:11 AM	Ah, but those abilities don't explain their various Fox magic, nor does it take into account how good they are at hiding and disguising things. I updated the op to include some modifications a friend of mine informed me of, and dropped them down to a +2 LA. How do they look now?
Fireclave 11-05-07, 09:41 PM	OK, I come up with some of the weirdest things while I am at work. Here are the Kitsune, fox spirit creatures from Japanese mythology. Kitsune Medium Outsider +2 Dex, +4 Cha 40 feet Low-Light Vision Darkvision Scent Alter Self (only humanoid forms, cannot get rid of their tails) and Prestidigitation at will Racial +4 on Bluff, Disguise and Sense Motive checks, and on Spot checks made to pierce a disguise of some sort. The LA is still too low, imo, compared to races of similar ECL, like the +2 LA catfolk. The unbalanced stats and scent, by themselves, are worth about +1 LA each. The racial bonuses to skills are very high as well. If it were one or two at at +4 it wouldn't be so bad, but a total of +12 static bonuses plus a +4 conditional bonus is too high to ignore when considering LA. Alterself is still a very strong ability to have at will since it effectively gives them physical stat bonus, natural armor, and additional racial abilities as well. Specifically swim speeds (and the accompying +8 bonus to swim checks), fly speeds, and probably a burrow speed as well. Alterself at will is at least worth +2 LA on its own, regardless of how the rest of the race pans out. Altogether though, this race feels like it should be +4 LA. If you replaced alterself with something a bit less powerful, like Disguise Self, and toned the racial bonuses or removed one of the abilities, I could see this easily being a LA +2 race. Outsider Traits: Though Kitsune call the Material plane home, they do not possess the Native subtype, allowing them to retain all of the benefits of being an Outsider, applying the Material plane as their home plane. Which is long-winded way of saying your Kitsunes are Native Outsiders that don't need to eat, sleep, and breath, and can't be raised. You really wouldn't lose much by making them Native Outsiders, and if your planning on having players play a kitsune adventurer, giving them the native subtype will save your group some headaches/heartbreak later on. Ah, but those abilities don't explain their various Fox magic, nor does it take into account how good they are at hiding and disguising things. Fox magic can be easily applied by making their favorite class sorcerer. They easily have the charisma for it. :twocents:
Aleolus 11-06-07, 02:18 AM	But, I specified that they can only use Alter Self to appear as humanoids, which rules out most of the races that have decent fly/swim speeds, all of the races with burrow speeds, and almost all races with more than one or two points of natural armor. And the big thing I was trying to imply with my description of them being Outsiders is the fact that an Outsider killed off of it's native plane does not actually die, it is simply forced back to it's native plane, and can return when given the chance to. The Kitsune are the same way, however the plane they can be permanently killed on is the material plane.
Fireclave 11-06-07, 04:04 AM	But, I specified that they can only use Alter Self to appear as humanoids, which rules out most of the races that have decent fly/swim speeds, all of the races with burrow speeds, and almost all races with more than one or two points of natural armor. Just sticking to the SRD, you have these fine choices: Troglodyte: +4 con, -2 dex, +6 Natural Armor, claws, bite Bugbear: +4 str, +2 dex, +2 con, +4 bonus to move silently Kobold: -4 str, -2 con, +2 dex, claws, slight build, bite, +1 natural armor, small size Aquatic Elf: +4 dex, 40ft swim speed, gills Merfolk: 50ft swim speed, amphibious Locathah: 60ft swim speed, +3 natural armor Jungle Goblins: 20ft climb speed, small size, -2 str, +2 con Swim and climb speeds are covered, as well as the +8 bonus to swim and climb checks that come with speeds. Your kitsunes can just stay in Troglodyte form 24/7 to enjoy +4 con, natural weapons, and a overall +5 bonus to AC. And for stealth, they can go kobold and enjoy the benefits of being tiny instead of small whenever it would benefit them to do so (see the RotD web enhancement), effectively adding a +8 hide modifier to their abilities. And that's not even trying. For more reasons not to give them Alterself, click here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246). 50ft flying speeds and 20ft burrowing speeds are well within the range of abilities they can get access to. Also note that since your kitsune are actually outsiders, if they get the ability to cast Alterself via class levels, they get even more options. And the big thing I was trying to imply with my description of them being Outsiders is the fact that an Outsider killed off of it's native plane does not actually die, it is simply forced back to it's native plane, and can return when given the chance to. The Kitsune are the same way, however the plane they can be permanently killed on is the material plane. I see now. I'd forgotten about that. But unless your games heavily involve planar travel, it probably wouldn't become an issue to often. At the same time, that is a very powerful ability for high level, plane-jumping adventurers to have since it esentially gives them a free 1up diamond each time they take their questing to another plane.
Aleolus 11-06-07, 01:10 PM	OK, swapped Alter Self for Disguise self, stating they can appear as any humanoid, but they keep their tails regardless of their form. Maybe that would drop down their LA a bit, now? I'd rather they be a +1 or 2, rather than a 4, since higher LAs are much more difficult to play.
Finfreeze 11-06-07, 01:34 PM	I'd say...that it's about LA +1 now. Disguise Self isn't anything to worry about (hat of disguise is only ~2000 gp), the ability mods are comfortably within the LA +1 range, and the other abilities round it out. Eyeballing the version with Alter Self...that was about LA +2 at most. The LA is still too low, imo, compared to races of similar ECL, like the +2 LA catfolk. ...Aren't catfolk only LA +1, and not that great at that? I mean, you nix the charisma bonus and tone down the dex bonus to +2, and it would seem to be a decent LA +0 race. Your kitsunes can just stay in Troglodyte form 24/7 to enjoy +4 con, natural weapons, and a overall +5 bonus to AC. You keep your ability scores while using alter self.