Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Apocolypse_77 08-02-07, 03:16 PM	is it just me or did kobolds kinda get shafted on their stats. I mean they have a total stat adjustment of -4 when most races get 0 and alot of +1 lvl adjusts get +4. And the stuff they have besides that isn't all that great either. Am i missing something or are kobolds supposed to really sucks? Any ideas on making them better?
Tuah 08-02-07, 03:27 PM	They're pretty much supposed to be peons. Except for Pun-pun.
Rustmonster 08-02-07, 03:31 PM	is it just me or did kobolds kinda get shafted on their stats. I mean they have a total stat adjustment of -4 when most races get 0 and alot of +1 lvl adjusts get +4. And the stuff they have besides that isn't all that great either. Am i missing something or are kobolds supposed to really sucks? Any ideas on making them better? Yes, they are underpowered, because someone decided to be "nosdalgic" for when they were useless mooks that died in one hit. I think they should fix it, as they are now very often used as a race for PCs. I'm disapointed that in "Races of the Dragon", they did not improve the kobolds (enough. They gave them a few worthless Craft (Basketweaving) type things). Also, see goblins. Although not as bad as kobolds, they are also "stuck in a time warp" from when they were fodder.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-02-07, 03:45 PM	Goblins are actually fairly good. They don't fit every mechanical role (I'm still trying to figure out how to rig one to work as a knight) but they have a lot going for them. Kobolds are weak. They aren't unplayably weak, and many of their supporters love them specifically for being weak but still quite usable if you know what you're doing. I don't think it's wrong - not everything has to be as good as a human (half-orcs certainly aren't). You can play them if you want, but giving them a free class level by way of negative LA, or boosting their stats and abilities, just doesn't seem right. I mean, if you want to play a kobold or a goblin, play a kobold or a goblin... why steroid it up into something else when you could just play something else?
RobbyPants 08-02-07, 03:49 PM	Remember, that when determining the power of a race, you have to look at all the ways it can be used. True, kobolds do not make good melee tanks. They do, however, make good rogues and arcane casters. They are one of the few small races that still has a 30 ft speed (which is about the same as a medium creature with a 40 ft speed). Compared to humans, an average kobold gets +3 AC (+1 for +2 Dex, +1 for size, +1 natural). It's this natural AC bonus that helps make up for the -4 Str.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-02-07, 03:51 PM	There are a few variants in unearthed arcana that are a little bit better than a normal kobold. Namely the jungle kobold or the earth kobold
Ocom 08-02-07, 03:53 PM	Kobolds are like goblins. They were not meant for PCs. Both are as little expendable chunks of walking meat. They favour ambushes, traps, overwhelming numbers and are cowardly. Not something that righteous heroes would do or be. Also they make half-elves look half-decent.
Rustmonster 08-02-07, 03:57 PM	I don't think it's wrong - not everything has to be as good as a human (half-orcs certainly aren't). You can play them if you want, but giving them a free class level by way of negative LA, or boosting their stats and abilities, just doesn't seem right. I mean, if you want to play a kobold or a goblin, play a kobold or a goblin... why steroid it up into something else when you could just play something else? True, true. They certainly do not deserve negative LA. A nice little something might be nice, though.
Apocolypse_77 08-02-07, 04:03 PM	i'm not asking for an overhaul of the race, i just think with such nasty stats they should have better racial abilities. Or what do you guys think about giving them +2 Cha ontop of their normal stats, that would at least take away from their -4 total stat adjustment.
Rustmonster 08-02-07, 04:05 PM	i'm not asking for an overhaul of the race, i just think with such nasty stats they should have better racial abilities. Or what do you guys think about giving them +2 Cha ontop of their normal stats, that would at least take away from their -4 total stat adjustment. No! That just puts them more into the "Kobolds are only good as sorcerers" hole! As a side note, I made a pretty nifty kobold dual-weilding swashbuckler (he's a kobold who dual weilds, he does NOT dual weild kobolds). They are actually quite good as swashbucklers.
Wrong 08-02-07, 04:13 PM	There are nice kobold options here : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a Slight build may seem a weaker ability than strong built, but beside the fact that it's funny, to be considered as Tiny allows you to enter in the square of a party member and to squeeze in a 1-1/4 foot space without making an escape artist check. And it's even better with a reduce person spell.
Rustmonster 08-02-07, 04:20 PM	There are nice kobold options here : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a Slight build may seem a weaker ability than strong built, but beside the fact that it's funny, to be considered as Tiny allows you to enter in the square of a party member and to squeeze in a 1-1/4 foot space without making an escape artist check. And it's even better with a reduce person spell. The thing is, they should have had those things in "Races of the Dragon" anyway, and they don't help much. Plus, all the weapons in the article can be used by ANYONE, not just kobolds, so they are not "kobold options". Although I agree, slight build = fun.
RobbyPants 08-02-07, 04:23 PM	i'm not asking for an overhaul of the race, i just think with such nasty stats they should have better racial abilities. Or what do you guys think about giving them +2 Cha ontop of their normal stats, that would at least take away from their -4 total stat adjustment. Like I said in my first post, when determining a race's power, you have to look at everything it can do. As with most races, kobolds will be better in some roles than others. As rogues and arcane casters, they're already pretty decent. They don't need a further boost in this department. If you add too many nice rogue-like or caster-like abilities, pretty soon, you'll end up with something about as (un)balanced as the LA +0 jermaline druid!
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-02-07, 04:24 PM	No! That just puts them more into the "Kobolds are only good as sorcerers" hole! As a side note, I made a pretty nifty kobold dual-weilding swashbuckler (he's a kobold who dual weilds, he does NOT dual weild kobolds). They are actually quite good as swashbucklers.That ain't bad, melee attack and damage from abilities you aren't penalized on, put that AC and mobility to work. I made a similar goblin once, actually. Throw in Dervish and things get stupid quick. :D
Istaran 08-02-07, 04:37 PM	Their stats are not that nasty if you build to them, rather than against them. Str: 8, Dex: 18, Con: 8, Int: 8, Wis: 8, Cha: 8. - This costs 16 points whether you are a human or a kobold. You only fall behind a human if you buy higher than 10 str, and/or higher than 12 con. 10 str/12 con is just fine for many builds; if you need more than that don't play a kobold. Also, you can come out ahead of a human by using one or both of these options: superhuman dex - buy your dex up above what a human could. Subhuman str/con - don't recommend this for con, but you can 'sell back' your str down to a 4-7 and use the extra points for something else. This is something a human simply cannot do. If you build/play your character to minimize the impact of your low stats and capitalize on your high stats you will do well. You have small size (w/o the speed penalty) and nat armor to compliment your high dex already. You have normal access to all of the mental attributes, which makes you good for caster roles. And the unlocked access to RotD content sets you up nicely to be a rogue or sorcerer in particular. They're not brokenly good, but if you don't try to fight against their racial mods they aren't bad either. Just don't try to build them as BDFs or corks or whatever..
Amaril 08-02-07, 04:49 PM	The thing is, they should have had those things in "Races of the Dragon" anyway, and they don't help much. Plus, all the weapons in the article can be used by ANYONE, not just kobolds, so they are not "kobold options". You were just given free content, so who cares if it wasn't in the book originally. I also think you underestimate, natural weapons, slight build, and martial weapon proficiencies and how they improve the race. Every race with natural weapons at minimum has an LA +1. Also, not just ANYONE can use those weapons because they are exotic and would require a feat for each of them, whereas kobolds are proficient with some of them and others only require martial proficiency class ability.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-02-07, 07:37 PM	don't you mean natural armor cause they don't have natural weapons
Rustmonster 08-02-07, 10:05 PM	don't you mean natural armor cause they don't have natural weapons In the online suppliment posted above, they are given natural weapons. And I agree that natural weapons help A LITTLE, say, in a grapple. But if you have a light weapon, they become useless again.
Amaril 08-02-07, 10:45 PM	In the online suppliment posted above, they are given natural weapons. And I agree that natural weapons help A LITTLE, say, in a grapple. But if you have a light weapon, they become useless again. So those secondary natural attacks are completely useless?
Shippos 08-02-07, 11:48 PM	I find the glass half full. I do love kobolds. Though I do find them a bit weak, but if you do look at all the good sides about them and the weak sides you can make them usefull. You jest need to counter there down sides. :plotting: Also them being weak, that is why they stay in groups. I like useing them as rouges. Rouges are fun.:D
DM Zoc 08-03-07, 12:40 AM	Kobold casters are very powerful, certainly better than elves. Small size and a dex bonus combine to be a very large benefit to a ray caster, and the natural armor is not something to be ignored. To the best of my knowledge, kobolds have higher base AC than any other core race. Whenever I play a caster, it's always a toss-up between kobold and halfling (effectively trading 1 AC for 1 to all saves).
Yoshikata 08-03-07, 01:10 AM	Kobolds really aren’t that bad of race. Races of dragon made them pretty good with Dragon wrought and a few more feats. Just because the kobold isn't good at being great at even class doesn't mean it's horribly weak. Goblins are pretty decent actually small size get 30' base speed, +4 to move silently, ride and since they're small +4 to hide making them great Rogues for stealth right off the bat.
Ecalsneerg 08-03-07, 09:19 AM	Also, underground, they are fairly good because they can see in the dark and aren't light sensitive. I'd take a Kobold rogue into the underdark (at a high enough level. I mean, at an early level he's kebab meat) And when they're pursued overground by Drow, they aren't blinded for 6 seconds (giving him time to run away) :P
Khatoblepas 08-03-07, 10:26 AM	is it just me or did kobolds kinda get shafted on their stats. I mean they have a total stat adjustment of -4 when most races get 0 and alot of +1 lvl adjusts get +4. And the stuff they have besides that isn't all that great either. Am i missing something or are kobolds supposed to really sucks? Any ideas on making them better? Let me introduce you to the wonderful world of Greater Rite of Draconic Passage. - Kobolds are one of two races that can get Wizard 19/Sorcerer 11 casting with Ultimate Magus. All others get as much as Wizard 18. - What about Arcane Tricksters? Rogue 1/Sorcerer X/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster? You lose one caster level, which is made up for by GRoDP. - Dragonwrought and Alter Self into a Shadow Dragon? - Most-spells-known record is held by a Kobold, I think. One level in Sand Shaper, GR, full casting again! - Kobolds are awesome. Personally, I played a kobold I like: Rogue 3/Bard 2/Trapsmith 5/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8 Assassin's Stance + Dex-to-Damage makes this fun. As does 9th level spells, too. Set down some traps (the +2 racial bonus helps), sneak attack everyone, and be the party rogue to boot. Trapsmith Spell list + Bard spell list + Sorcerer spell list. That's a lot of spell-trigger items you can have. Lots of MAD and not very optimised, but thematically excellent. (Doable with 32pt buy, Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 18, but I rolled my stats :D)
Keaerin 08-03-07, 11:25 AM	Kobold arcane monks can be pretty evil too. A gm I will be playing with offered me a spot in a high lvl (14) game. He gave out set ability scores (20, 17, 14, 10, 9, 8) plus the 3 for lvl 12 and limited it to PHB, MM, DMG, spell comp, and the complete mage, arcane, divine, warrior, adventurer. Also you get full gear for a 14th lvl character. I put togther a monk 2/sor 3/arcane fist 9 (from comp arc) that has an ac of 40 flat anmd with 3 short cast buff spells goes to 52. The character also does impressive damage in melee despite the 5 str. Not sure If i'm going to play this chartacter but I couldn't help but laugh.
Kadasbrass 08-03-07, 12:46 PM	Kobolds are just one fish in the sea of "races" that are weak for their ECL. Kobolds, Goblins, Half-Elves, Gnolls, Aasimars, and Tieflings just to name a few from core alone. Their poorly designed for their ECL, but they are useful in certain roles sometimes. Kobolds and Goblins both have that 30 speed for small. They make good rogues and decent spellcasters. Kobolds get the benefit of highest ac bonus for single LA 0 race, goblins have that +4 move silently thing going for them. Thou from my point of view a race shouldn't be balanced so that its only good at one role, as opposed to being better at one over others. But maybe thats just me.
RuckusFox 08-03-07, 06:19 PM	It seems to me that Kobolds make extremely good machine gun rogues. =) But frankly...I think they could do with a negative level adjustment. Boost 'em up a tad.
NoldorForce 08-03-07, 06:35 PM	Nobody's mentioned the biggest benefit of taking Dragonwrought? I mean, being of the Dragon type is nice. But the real thing with it isn't mentioned in the feat itself, but in the section on kobold age categories. It's the fact that you don't suffer any physical penalties for aging. +3 Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma is rather good for a feat to grant.
natzero 08-03-07, 11:19 PM	ok i am making a lvl 7 (8 with template) fighter for a 7th lvl campaign (template was allowed by dm ;p) here is the link to my original thread (long post) it is a lvl 7 dragonic kobold fighter (lvls 2 and 4 were variant kobold fighter from rod) http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=898600 some1 tell me kobolds dont make good fighters when done just the right way ;p
Rustmonster 08-04-07, 12:27 AM	Also, underground, they are fairly good because they can see in the dark and aren't light sensitive. I'd take a Kobold rogue into the underdark (at a high enough level. I mean, at an early level he's kebab meat) And when they're pursued overground by Drow, they aren't blinded for 6 seconds (giving him time to run away) :P Kobolds have light sensitivity.
Ecalsneerg 08-04-07, 06:16 AM	Kobolds have light sensitivity. Kobold light sensitivity merely dazzles them, lowering attack, Spot and Search rolls, without penalty to movement. The -1 penalty is off-set somewhat by their +1 size bonus to hit. Drow have light blindness. This means they get dazzled, but upon being hit by sunlight, for the first round of its duration are blinded.
Windbit 08-04-07, 09:23 AM	Here's an idea I've had for making kobolds more powerful, but I don't know how balanced it would end up being: As a kobold levels up, give him the class features of the Dragon Disciple from the DMG (but not the saves or BAB). By tenth level, the kobold is a half-dragon! The player gets to experience the challenge of playing as a weak race, but through perseverance is rewarded with a kobold who is on par with the other races. I've also thought of giving kobolds a supernatural ability similar to dragonshape once they have become half-dragons at tenth level. Instead of only being able to turn into a huge red dragon, though, they could turn into any creature of the dragon type that they meet or exceed the requirements for. I'm not sure what I should make the requirements be, though. Are either of these ideas overpowered?
RobbyPants 08-04-07, 10:17 AM	It seems to me that Kobolds make extremely good machine gun rogues. =) But frankly...I think they could do with a negative level adjustment. Boost 'em up a tad. If I were in a game where the DM allowed negative LAs for kobolds, I'd play nothing but kobold rogues and casters in that game. +1 level is huge! Much more so than the penalties they take.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-04-07, 11:15 AM	Here's an idea I've had for making kobolds more powerful, but I don't know how balanced it would end up being: As a kobold levels up, give him the class features of the Dragon Disciple from the DMG (but not the saves or BAB). By tenth level, the kobold is a half-dragon! The player gets to experience the challenge of playing as a weak race, but through perseverance is rewarded with a kobold who is on par with the other races. I've also thought of giving kobolds a supernatural ability similar to dragonshape once they have become half-dragons at tenth level. Instead of only being able to turn into a huge red dragon, though, they could turn into any creature of the dragon type that they meet or exceed the requirements for. I'm not sure what I should make the requirements be, though. Are either of these ideas overpowered? Yes. The first one is bad philosophy. Being weak at lower levels should not make up for being powerful at higher levels. Then players starting high-level games would just grab whatever material you use that does this. Kobolds that can turn into dragons would require LA. All shapechanging races and templates that aren't severely limited (changelings, shifters) have LA. Yeah, kobolds are only underpowered in certain roles, in the same way a dwarf sorcerer is. Play to their strengths. I prefer a kobold monk. If you take Improved Natural Armor every level, and invest in defensive items, your AC will go through the roof. Kobolds also make excellent rogues (more defensively-oriented rogues than halflings, they have to with their Constitution penalty), and a kobold ranger (archer build) is more accurate than an elf ranger.
Niek 08-04-07, 11:25 AM	Kobolds make very good knights with their +3 AC over most other races. With a 4 level dip into fighter they overcome their ability score deficiencies, and then they can match most any tank with the sheer difficulty of actually hitting the little guys.
stargate525 08-04-07, 11:26 AM	Kobold light sensitivity merely dazzles them, lowering attack, Spot and Search rolls, without penalty to movement. The -1 penalty is off-set somewhat by their +1 size bonus to hit. And spend 10 gold and use up your goggle slot, and that goes away.
KillFrenzy 08-04-07, 11:31 AM	People often expect every race to be good at everything. Part of the concept of having multiple playable races is that they each have their own traits. Strengths and weaknesses define them, mechanics and stats-wise kobolds are horrible melee fighters but they have other advantages. Goblins make good rogues and scouts and i personally think they wouldnt make bad rangers. But they dont make good fighters or barbarians in the least and while a particular race may abit limited in their strengths and ability to serve different roles, they are most often masters at what purpose they are suited for. Am i wrong?
Manyfist 08-04-07, 11:41 AM	Only good Kobold is Dragonwrought Kobold. However with the LA buy off, Poison Dusk can out tank a Kobold. +3 Natural AC, Small AC, +1 from dex. Kobolds do need to harden up. I think their stats need to be: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-04-07, 11:47 AM	Am i wrong? Not on the goblin rangers count, goblins make excellent shooting rangers. They aren't bad at being barbarians either, though, give one a falchion and make heavy use of Power Attack and you're only maybe 2-3 points of damage below a medium barbarian. The natural stealth even helps with getting into range to take a surprise round and charge, and the dex and size offset the rage penalty to AC. Being able to see in the dark helps a lot when you slug it out with someone who can't, too.
KillFrenzy 08-05-07, 02:40 AM	Not on the goblin rangers count, goblins make excellent shooting rangers. They aren't bad at being barbarians either, though, give one a falchion and make heavy use of Power Attack and you're only maybe 2-3 points of damage below a medium barbarian. The natural stealth even helps with getting into range to take a surprise round and charge, and the dex and size offset the rage penalty to AC. Being able to see in the dark helps a lot when you slug it out with someone who can't, too. I guess rage makes up for the low strength and softness of goblins. And the addition of size bonus and additional dex makes up for the dexterity penalties rage gives.
Shiftkitty 08-05-07, 07:10 PM	Something I'd like to say in defense of kobolds as they stand. They remind me of chihuahuas. I don't mean shivery little huge-eyed pampered pooches that sit in your lap and look terrified of the world. I'm thinking about vicious little piranha dogs like my mom used to raise. She always had at least four (sometimes as many as twelve), and that's all it would take to kick the kiesters of dogs much larger. They'd hit hard and fast and be back at a safe distance before the other dog could land a bite. Woe to the dog who focused on just one, because the others would swarm him. In tall grass, they were able to surround, confuse, and chase off this guy who had hopped into our backyard and tried to steal a scooter. When it's dark and small little yipping things are darting around just at the edge of your perception, it's easy to lose track of where you are and how many of them are around. Short story, our scooter was safe and the punk dropped his rather nice knife. So that's how I play the kobolds. They're small, they're yippy, they're fast (like marsupials, a cookie to whoever can guess the reference), and they attack en masse with hit-and-run tactics. Kobolds are very respected by wise delvers in my game.
Nephlite 08-05-07, 07:38 PM	I prefer a kobold monk. If you take Improved Natural Armor every level, and invest in defensive items, your AC will go through the roof. Yes, but you to hit or damage will go through the floor. If he weaon finesees (low damage), but if raise Str rest of stats will be lower. So AC only? How does that help... enemies will ignore you.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-05-07, 08:51 PM	Yes, but you to hit or damage will go through the floor. If he weaon finesees (low damage), but if raise Str rest of stats will be lower. So AC only? How does that help... enemies will ignore you. Well, it really just comes down to what level you are when you decide +5 to melee attack rolls is better than another +1 to AC. You're small, so you're not doing much damage anyways, and you don't suffer this problem with ranged weapons (flurry of poisoned shuriken, anyone?) You can take Weapon Finesse eventually to help in combat, but if you're really trying for a high-AC build at LA +0, this is the way to do it. In a party, a high-AC character like this makes a great defender for the party's spellcasters. He's got the AC and saving throw bonuses to keep on his feet when under direct fire. Although he can't smack down anything within arm's reach, his mere presence is able to delay a determined attacker for a round or two, which is long enough in most battles.
Rustmonster 08-06-07, 12:29 PM	So that's how I play the kobolds. They're small, they're yippy, they're fast (like marsupials, a cookie to whoever can guess the reference), and they attack en masse with hit-and-run tactics. Kobolds are very respected by wise delvers in my game. It's well understood how a group of kobolds can take down lots of things, but the fact remains that you need roughly twice as many kobolds to take down something one creature of 0 LA could take on*. When you make a party, you only get to play ONE character. So, you are still only like half a member. If it is a 4 kobold party, then they are fighting things that are still too difficult for them. I like playing kobolds, and I do think they are valid character choices, and can make great characters. But I still think it was unwise for WoTC to make them disadvantaged compared to other LA 0 races (no one can possibly say they are at the same power level as a human or an elf, etc), just because that's how they were in the old days. *This info is straight from the MM, where it states a kobold warrior at 1/4 CR, and other LA 0 creatures as CR 1/2. It is strange that they say that a kobold with PC class levels are the same as any other LA 0 race with PC class levels, as that means that 4 kobolds with 1 PC class level should use only 20% of their resources against 4 1 NPC class level kobolds, while, say, a party of 4 elves with 1 PC class level would have to fight only 2 of their NPC class counterparts to use 20% resources. This does not seem right.
Shiftkitty 08-06-07, 03:12 PM	Serves me right for skimming. I didn't pick up we were talking about kobolds as PCs. As PCs, yeah. Gonna need a lot of them. Fortunately, they breed like roaches.
Istaran 08-06-07, 07:13 PM	For most races, four of one race is going to be just doomed in a lot of situations, because they are either lacking one of the four 'iconic' roles (fighter, rogue, divine, arcane) or one of them is playing the role with a suboptimal character. A team of four half-orcs is probably going to have some serious problems from time to time because any arcane caster they field is going to be hurting from his racial mods. Human and Half-elf are major exceptions to this, because they are well balanced and can fit any role fairly well. A team of all kobolds is going to be missing a heavy damage fighter, and rely on AC + reflex over HP. If their arcanist can't take out the enemy and the precision fighters can't sneak attack or skirmish they will have a hard time.. just like any other party lacking that role. The strength of a race for PCs especially should be concidered from the question of "How good is this race for a character playing to the race's strengths and using it for a role it is good for." The answer for kobolds is, imo, about on par for LA +0. It isn't useful to judge how bad a race would be if you built your character badly, or built for a role you weren't suited for. That would only be meaningful if we had some campaign with a wierd "everyone in the party has to be the same race as each other" rule. In such a case any group of players that really wants to do well will pick human. Bonus feat + skills is helpful in every role.
Kesthol 08-06-07, 07:30 PM	I would have to agree that kobolds are deficient for a PC race. However, they are not very far from being balanced. Simple solution: Kobold PCs (and other kobolds of intrinsic importance to the campaign) gain the Blessing of Kurtulmak. The Blessing of Kurtulmak grants a kobold the ability to cast Cure Minor Wounds 1/day and Guidance 2/day.
DM Zoc 08-06-07, 07:59 PM	I would have to agree that kobolds are deficient for a PC race. However, they are not very far from being balanced. Simple solution: Kobold PCs (and other kobolds of intrinsic importance to the campaign) gain the Blessing of Kurtulmak. The Blessing of Kurtulmak grants a kobold the ability to cast Cure Minor Wounds 1/day and Guidance 2/day. Interesting suggestion, but I would think most Kobold PCs would not be in Kurtulmak's favor. It would be like if Drizzt gained spell-like abilities from being a favored of Lloth.
Irving 08-06-07, 08:47 PM	...frighteningly enough (and just going by the Ninjas with Class article, since I don't have the book), kobolds look like they would make pretty good ninjas. A high innate armor to make up for the lack of armor proficiency, superb hiding skills to strike from surprise and get a sudden strike off, poison familiarity to cope with the lack of damage potential, and some horrifying stealth and evasion skills that make the buggers even more maddening to cope with. The mere concept gives me the heebie-jeebies, though. A dungeon full of kobold ninjas=the DM must hate us.
ArgulFraster 08-06-07, 08:57 PM	Kobolds are like goblins. They were not meant for PCs. Both are as little expendable chunks of walking meat. They favour ambushes, traps, overwhelming numbers and are cowardly. Not something that righteous heroes would do or be. Also they make half-elves look half-decent. Indeed. Kobolds aren't meant to be seriously played, they're meant for horribly raped powerplayer joke builds and for little bits of flesh flying away fro the fireball you just launched.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-06-07, 09:06 PM	Kobolds do need to harden up. I think their stats need to be: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con This is one of the variants in the unearthed arcana
aikimiller 08-06-07, 09:13 PM	...frighteningly enough (and just going by the Ninjas with Class article, since I don't have the book), kobolds look like they would make pretty good ninjas. A high innate armor to make up for the lack of armor proficiency, superb hiding skills to strike from surprise and get a sudden strike off, poison familiarity to cope with the lack of damage potential, and some horrifying stealth and evasion skills that make the buggers even more maddening to cope with. The mere concept gives me the heebie-jeebies, though. A dungeon full of kobold ninjas=the DM must hate us. If you throw in the fact that they have natural weapons claw/claw/bite, for some potentially nasty sudden strike damage, and you ain't just whistling dixie.
ShakaUVM 08-07-07, 08:57 AM	is it just me or did kobolds kinda get shafted on their stats. I mean they have a total stat adjustment of -4 when most races get 0 and alot of +1 lvl adjusts get +4. And the stuff they have besides that isn't all that great either. Am i missing something or are kobolds supposed to really sucks? Any ideas on making them better? Meh, they're not that bad. The fighter substitution levels give +2 str and +2 con, making them... halflings, I guess. I'm personally trying to figure out how to make a kobold ranger work. Their racial substitution level gives them a dire weasel companion at +3 effective druid levels. I'm looking at natural bond, beastmaster, and wild plains outrider right now.
Kesthol 08-07-07, 07:13 PM	Interesting suggestion, but I would think most Kobold PCs would not be in Kurtulmak's favor. It would be like if Drizzt gained spell-like abilities from being a favored of Lloth. 1) So replace Kurtulmak with Io (or some other draconinc diety). Or give a different name (and imply that it is an inborn/discovered ability in some kobolds). 2) Or realize that, in some campaigns, certain kobolds are sent out by their tribe with the blessing of the tribe--and potentially their god--(for various reasons, including finding a way to get some poor saps, er, adventurers, together to come slay the ____ that has enslaved the tribe). A correct (but not THE ONLY correct) way to add an ability to a creature/race/class: if the new ability works (in this case, makes kobolds balanced, or nearly so), then you can deal with the name and logistics ex post facto.
Kraven_Redcloak 08-07-07, 08:47 PM	If you throw in the fact that they have natural weapons claw/claw/bite, for some potentially nasty sudden strike damage, and you ain't just whistling dixie. Equipping them with Greater Magic Fang makes it even more so, even better if you use Superior Magic Fang then cast Permanency. Just think of it, a Kobold with the Vampiric or Bane property on his natural weapons.
Raptorial 08-07-07, 09:17 PM	So that's how I play the kobolds. They're small, they're yippy, they're fast (like marsupials, a cookie to whoever can guess the reference), and they attack en masse with hit-and-run tactics. Kobolds are very respected by wise delvers in my game. I sort of use them similar, but based upon my dachshund experiences rather than chihuahas. I also toss a bit of mine layer and sniper in there. Oh...and Quicky Koala, IIRC.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-07-07, 09:20 PM	Congratulations, thread. My sig is longer because of you. :nonono:
WorldsLargestDungionFan 08-07-07, 09:40 PM	Depending on the MM Kobolts are CR 1/4, In my reguards Kobolts deserve that CR, After all a level 1 fighter with Cleave can take on 10 kobolts and win, (Yes They can, Hell level 1 fighter type with Cleave can do it) 10 kobolts should be CR 2 1/2 So in many reguards there underpowered, However the trick hear is the fact that its a "Fighter type" Class not a Arcane Class type, inless the Arcane class (Wizard Scor or w/e) [Inless its a Psi I can see them winning] Will lose, Inless that Wizard/Scor or any other arcane class (Again inless its Psi) Is being lame or kinda bending the rules by makeing it more like a 3 on 10 fight (Have buddies or warhorse or something doing it For you) You lose, However we have to give credit that in that example the Arcane class metagamed thinked [Meta Game think reason (Hell Im going to be fighting 10 kobolts today im sopos to be alone, Well considering in game my character dose not know this BUT I DO as the player, I Think I'll hire body guards or do something eles in that reguard) End of metagame reason] So Yes inless all the kobolts become Punpun suddenly (Which btw loses to a higher level Bard becouse of the way how skills work[Note the bard is somewhat specing him self out but hey punpun is the untimate cheat lame character who cares]) They are pretty pointless, Even if you Swarm them like mad, Inless the DM Gets a lot of Nat 20's they miss your fighter type character, Inless the party is made up of mostly Arcane casters (Or lightly armed/HP character but PSI) The party is going to win, Kobolts however are great to make the party spend some reascourses, so that the next battle can be even more powerful Swarm the party with hit and run tastics, Inless you gave them nice class levels (Thus changeing the monster) The party will more then likly win (Again inless one of the above reasons happin)
natzero 08-08-07, 12:17 PM	shaka ranger sounds interesting but how about a kobold scout. with arctic kobold: -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 wis get the quick class trait: -1 health per level :9 but +10 feet movement that plus lvl 4 or 5 scout (cant remember) allows a kobold scout to move 50 ft per round normally. that allows for some serious skirmish fighting ;p
Nidair 08-08-07, 12:43 PM	One kobold may be underpowered but... There is no such thing as "only one kobold".
Rustmonster 08-08-07, 06:19 PM	Depending on the MM Kobolts are CR 1/4, In my reguards Kobolts deserve that CR, After all a level 1 fighter with Cleave can take on 10 kobolts and win, (Yes They can, Hell level 1 fighter type with Cleave can do it) 10 kobolts should be CR 2 1/2 So in many reguards there underpowered, However the trick hear is the fact that its a "Fighter type" Class not a Arcane Class type, inless the Arcane class (Wizard Scor or w/e) [Inless its a Psi I can see them winning] Will lose, Inless that Wizard/Scor or any other arcane class (Again inless its Psi) Is being lame or kinda bending the rules by makeing it more like a 3 on 10 fight (Have buddies or warhorse or something doing it For you) You lose, However we have to give credit that in that example the Arcane class metagamed thinked [Meta Game think reason (Hell Im going to be fighting 10 kobolts today im sopos to be alone, Well considering in game my character dose not know this BUT I DO as the player, I Think I'll hire body guards or do something eles in that reguard) End of metagame reason] So Yes inless all the kobolts become Punpun suddenly (Which btw loses to a higher level Bard becouse of the way how skills work[Note the bard is somewhat specing him self out but hey punpun is the untimate cheat lame character who cares]) They are pretty pointless, Even if you Swarm them like mad, Inless the DM Gets a lot of Nat 20's they miss your fighter type character, Inless the party is made up of mostly Arcane casters (Or lightly armed/HP character but PSI) The party is going to win, Kobolts however are great to make the party spend some reascourses, so that the next battle can be even more powerful Swarm the party with hit and run tastics, Inless you gave them nice class levels (Thus changeing the monster) The party will more then likly win (Again inless one of the above reasons happin) This makes absolutly no sense. I was kinda picking things up here and there, but it doesn't matter because there is no grammer or spelling at all. Whatever point you were trying to make was lost in this flow of trash. People will understand you if you use proper grammer and spelling.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-09-07, 12:50 PM	Depending on the MM Kobolts are CR 1/4, In my reguards Kobolts deserve that CR, After all a level 1 fighter with Cleave can take on 10 kobolts and win, (Yes They can, Hell level 1 fighter type with Cleave can do it) 10 kobolts should be CR 2 1/2 So in many reguards there underpowered, However the trick hear is the fact that its a "Fighter type" Class not a Arcane Class type, inless the Arcane class (Wizard Scor or w/e) [Inless its a Psi I can see them winning] Will lose, Inless that Wizard/Scor or any other arcane class (Again inless its Psi) Is being lame or kinda bending the rules by makeing it more like a 3 on 10 fight (Have buddies or warhorse or something doing it For you) You lose, However we have to give credit that in that example the Arcane class metagamed thinked [Meta Game think reason (Hell Im going to be fighting 10 kobolts today im sopos to be alone, Well considering in game my character dose not know this BUT I DO as the player, I Think I'll hire body guards or do something eles in that reguard) End of metagame reason] So Yes inless all the kobolts become Punpun suddenly (Which btw loses to a higher level Bard becouse of the way how skills work[Note the bard is somewhat specing him self out but hey punpun is the untimate cheat lame character who cares]) They are pretty pointless, Even if you Swarm them like mad, Inless the DM Gets a lot of Nat 20's they miss your fighter type character, Inless the party is made up of mostly Arcane casters (Or lightly armed/HP character but PSI) The party is going to win, Kobolts however are great to make the party spend some reascourses, so that the next battle can be even more powerful Swarm the party with hit and run tastics, Inless you gave them nice class levels (Thus changeing the monster) The party will more then likly win (Again inless one of the above reasons happin)This makes absolutly no sense. I was kinda picking things up here and there, but it doesn't matter because there is no grammer or spelling at all. Whatever point you were trying to make was lost in this flow of trash. People will understand you if you use proper grammer and spelling. I read that as "I read the CO boards but know nothing of tactics to understand it. I know Pun-Pun is a broken build and Diplomacy is a broken skill, but not why. I know fighters are tough and mages are squishy and I have never heard of save-or-lose spells, or fighting dirty within the rules. Kobolds are good for throwing in big groups at parties to slightly drain their hp and other resources so the next monsters can beat the party up real good. Players can get around this but they must be cheating to do so." A lone goblin wizard with Colour Spray and a light crossbow would eat this guy alive.
Ecalsneerg 08-09-07, 01:29 PM	A lone goblin wizard with Colour Spray and a light crossbow would eat this guy alive. Y'mean... I'm abnormal! DAMN YOU GOBLIN WIZARD!
Darklight 08-09-07, 04:34 PM	This makes absolutely no sense. I was kind of picking things up here and there, but it doesn't matter because there was no grammar or spelling at all. Whatever point you were trying to make was lost in this flow of trash. People will understand you if you use proper grammar and spelling. Fixed.