Kobolds: bringers of 1d4-1 damage. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kobolds: bringers of 1d4-1 damage. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shudragon
03-04-07, 07:40 PM I think kobolds are a cool race, others might not, but I do.That is why I am starting this thread in the first place. So, the big subject is... How about more powerfull kobolds? I know there are kobold wizards and sorcerers out there,but seriosly! I'm thinking:Kobold almighty deathbringer, STR 17, DEX 12, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 17. Equipment= Masterwork falchion, Heavy crossbow w/ masterwork bolts, Metal shield w/ spikes, and banded armor.
Anyone else likin' this? P.E.A.C.H.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-04-07, 07:47 PM Besides taking -4 to hit because he can't fire his crossbow with his shield arm and banded armor not being worth the tin it is stamped out of, ok...

Kobolds offer 30ft movement and +1 natural armor. Good stuff. Not worth the -4 net stat points. Halving the Str penalty (and perhaps dropping the Con penalty- I have been flip-flopping on this) makes them much better. They are also very much improved by any of the Dragonblooded material from Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic, moreso than most of the other races get from their respective books. It is up to you to use that stuff, and how far racial feats improve a species by denying them much of the normal feats.
Naderion
03-05-07, 07:26 AM What's wrong with banded mail? That's basically the best type of armor there is heavier than chain shirt.
runestar
03-05-07, 08:32 AM I'm thinking:Kobold almighty deathbringer, STR 17, DEX 12, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 17
How the heck are you getting those stats?

They can be quite strong with a little twinking. Take the dragonwrought feat and alter self into dragons. Go venerable for the free +3 to all mental stats and the ability to take epic feats from 1st lv.

Banded mail is quite useful early on for its relatively low cost, when you are not yet able to afford half/full plate.
boggler65
03-05-07, 09:08 AM I've never understood quite why the kobold incurs such heavy penalties for so few gains.
The MM1 states on page 162: "Thier nasty haibits and thier distrust of most other beings mean that they have many enemies."
On page 161 the MM1 gives evidence in at least two places that they are clever and mechanically inclined, as well as able to mine with great efficiency. All of this points toward at least some degree of enhanced intelligence.
I have never quite been able to accept the fact that they are so freaking weak. I mean ok, so they aren't supposed to be great at melee, so they're not valorous, and tend to rely on numbers and trickery instead of skills, none of that means that they can suffer so many penalties without some significant gain.
A kobold's favored class is sorcerer right. Well none of thier racial traits benefit this in any way, they do not have bonuses to charisma, nor do they have bonuses to intelligence that would reflect thier pretenatural skill with traps and mining.
In case no one's figured it out I kind of have a soft spot for the wildly yipping little cowards lol.
Bottom line if you think about it logically;
Kobolds suffer a total of -6 to key combat abilites (STR,CON), they do not gain any bonuses to mental abilites which would at least make up for thier horrifying disadvantages I mean come on they're frequently sorcerers, they are clearly intelligent give them some freaking INT or CHA bonus. Oh and they gain +2 to dex. Big deal, so a Kobold (adjusted from the racial stats given in the MM1) wearing studded leather armor and fighting a human has all of 16 ac. He's still only got about 6-8/10 HP and is probably going to get killed in about 2 rounds. Additionally even gnomes and halflings don't suffer such ridiculous ability score penalties.
In my mind the +1 Natural Armor bonus is not even a factor, supposing the poor little bastard survives a single round he's most likely not even capable of scratching his opponent.

For my PC Kobolds I flat out refuse to use the normal MM1 stats. Mine are as follows;
-2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, +2 INT, -2 WIS
They still take -6 worth of penalties to ability scores, but now they gain +4 instead of +2, and in another appropriate area, plus they still have thier +1 NA bonus. It just makes the poor little guys survive longer.

Anyway that's my piece, use it as you see fit =)
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-05-07, 12:19 PM Anyone else likin' this? P.E.A.C.H.
No, I hate it.

Kobolds are meant to be stealthy, hard-to-hit opportunists. Don't treat them as anything else and you'll do fine. If you want a strong lizard, play a lizardfolk or troglodyte.
boggler65
03-05-07, 06:19 PM P.E.A.C.H???
And its not an issue of trying to play a race outside its niche, its an issue of survivability. Since no matter how well you play your Kobold is most likely going to die by level 3.
Leo
03-05-07, 06:42 PM Well, I always tought of kobolds as cannon fodder for low level characters.

They are suposed to be weak. Everybody knows low level characters die quite easily with just a little bad luck, if the kobolds hadn't got so bad penalty to strenght, they would be much more dangerous in big numbers.

Like goblins.

Boy do I like goblins.:P

Anyway, the kobolds houldn't get bonus to int. After all, they already get bonus to trapmaking and mining, and you can't really call a race of paranoic lizards that hate everybody and hide inside mountains building traps day and night really smart.
SilverEyes
03-05-07, 09:55 PM Used appropriately, creatures that have a negative CR can be actually good opponents. I remember having some kobold warrior 6s (CR 4) that were a good challenge for a ECL 4-5 party, keep in mind they have 6 HD and 2 attacks per round (BAB +6). Given masterwork weapons, WF, wielding two-handed, plus support from adept 6s (CR 4), they were hitting and doing some damage. While it may not have been as difficult as a more optimized set of creatures, having the party struggle with kobolds was entertaining. (It was a party of 3 level 5s, 2 level 4). Before I hear it; no one (except the cleric) is a full caster, so fireball wasn't an option :P
Fencerboy
03-05-07, 10:27 PM I'm surprised noone has linked to PUNPUN yet!
He's is in my sig, as commanded.

Otherwise, a few of the right class levels and a Kobold is as formidable as anyone else, especially with a bit of poison and some needles, spikes, swinging blades...
:D
cog_n_taz
03-05-07, 10:39 PM I stand by psion/soulknife kobolds with a weasel mount, and quite possibly a hellfire aversion.

...alright, no one got the reference, okay.
Return of the Flumph
03-05-07, 10:58 PM +2 charisma and an extra +2 dexterity (for a total racial dex adjustment of +4) makes them quite the formidable little buggers without touching their strength penalty.

I've used this build to great effect.
Cyanide300
03-05-07, 11:24 PM Eh, I think kobolds are fine the way they are. They're not meant to be fighters. None of the small races are meant to be melee combat machines. The kobold gets a +2 AC, a +1 to attack, a move speed that's 10ft higher than most small races, 60ft darkvision, a +2 on 3 different skills, and a +4 on hide checks. If you play a caster or a rogue, none of their penalties matter much at all. A smart caster won't make very many rolls using his str modifier, and the con penalty is no worse than an elf's. A kobold rogue is a hiding and trap finding machine who's faster than a gnome or halfling, and nobody cares about a -2 penalty to damage when you're rolling an extra 10d6.
runestar
03-06-07, 01:38 AM A kobold warrior4 is cr1. That is about the only good use I can think about for them. Though I have been tempted to give them the dragonwrought kobold feat, and then throw on the dracolich template...:P

Paralysing attacks at 4th lv...:D
Zombayz1
03-06-07, 01:45 AM A kobold warrior4 is cr1. That is about the only good use I can think about for them. Though I have been tempted to give them the dragonwrought kobold feat, and then throw on the dracolich template...:P

Paralysing attacks at 4th lv...:D

That is sadistic.
I'm so stealing this!
*yoink*
Razieliffied
03-06-07, 01:59 AM 1d4-1? Thats what my friends look at and then get the idea that the monsters are weak from.

Personally, I note the int 10 [equal to a human, with a natural afinity for traps and subterfuge] and I go to town. Heavy crossbow's for everyone and reach weapons set against charges, I play kobolds in tunnels with many many many traps and dirty tricks and over the last few months my players have come to understand that there is no such thing as a weak kobold.

I love the kobolds, they have great flavor and the rules for them in the Monster Manual simply give me a challenge. My group gets a great kick out of new players seeing a kobold and deciding to 'run at the thing screaming, it's just a kobold' then having all sorts of nasty things happen to them.

"I base my kobolds upon these kobolds." (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/)

I'm on par or worse. I've had a group of powergaming PC's at level 13 who couldn't suvive a kobold dungeon [we played it as such, I would try to kill them, they would try and get from point A to B]. I never had to break a rule :P
HammerSmashed
03-06-07, 08:18 PM lol, I just hate Kobolds, plus is you wanna be a lizard thing why not be a Poison Dusk?
Raede
03-06-07, 11:37 PM I personally really like my friend's writeup that makes them PC-able and focuses on their capacity as the smart trapsmiths.

-2 Con, +2 Int
Small Size: +1 AC, +1 on attack rolls, +4 on Sneak checks, -4 penalty on Grapple checks, Lifting and Carrying limit is ž that of a medium character.
Base Speed 30
Darkvision 60 Feet
+2 Racial bonus to Disable Device, Spellcraft, and Search
+1 Natural Armor Bonus

Taking the penalty to strength and getting a bonus to dex may be more appropriate for a more traditional D&D campaign. These ones are a little more magic trap focused.
sythspawn
03-07-07, 12:54 PM "I base my kobolds upon these kobolds." (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/)

I love that essay! I'll have to remember that if I ever run a game. :D
hiryuu
03-07-07, 01:10 PM Kobold Swordsage. With a baseline +3 to AC before the day even starts, it goes from bad to worse once you put 'em in just a measly +2 mithril chain shirt, you can get a nice AC of 26 before you start giving him defending weapons, an amulet, a ring, and Dex and Wis boosting magic items. Give him Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, and watch the little ninja go.
RobbyPants
03-07-07, 01:25 PM If you perscribe to YabaTheWhat's Feature Points (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683), kobolds are actually a pretty decent race. This is largely due to the +1 natural AC bonus, and the small size with a 30 ft speed. This helps account for their -4 total stat penalty.

Of course, in order for them to be successful at anything, you have to play to a kobold's strengths, while trying to mask their weaknesses. Without some serious re-statting, kobolds make terrible front-line melee fighters. Between their abysmally wretched Str mod and their small size weapons, they will do pathetic damage, and that Con penalty does not help things. The way to overcome this is to get size-independant damage. Sneak attack (and other precision-based damage) is a great way to do this if you want to use weapons with your kobold. A kobold rogue will be much more competant than a kobold fighter. This is about the only way I can see a kobold "fighter type" succeeding.
DeathDragon
03-07-07, 02:19 PM I have been thinking of using Kobolds as a PC of mine for a while. Aside from 'sneak' attacking (which my DM seems to hate), I can see being a Kobold Fighter specced with Weapon Spec/Focus (Longbow/Composite) feats among others, being very dangerous with the Elite Array.

Nothing like seeing a 2-3 foot creature that is hard to hit, as well as being able to move as fast as you, if not faster, and keep up a hail of arrows...

I am only deciding between Fighter and Ranger for my guy. I really like the fact of being small and quick, even though damage may not be huge, survivability is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shudragon 03-04-07, 07:40 PM	I think kobolds are a cool race, others might not, but I do.That is why I am starting this thread in the first place. So, the big subject is... How about more powerfull kobolds? I know there are kobold wizards and sorcerers out there,but seriosly! I'm thinking:Kobold almighty deathbringer, STR 17, DEX 12, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 17. Equipment= Masterwork falchion, Heavy crossbow w/ masterwork bolts, Metal shield w/ spikes, and banded armor. Anyone else likin' this? P.E.A.C.H.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-04-07, 07:47 PM	Besides taking -4 to hit because he can't fire his crossbow with his shield arm and banded armor not being worth the tin it is stamped out of, ok... Kobolds offer 30ft movement and +1 natural armor. Good stuff. Not worth the -4 net stat points. Halving the Str penalty (and perhaps dropping the Con penalty- I have been flip-flopping on this) makes them much better. They are also very much improved by any of the Dragonblooded material from Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic, moreso than most of the other races get from their respective books. It is up to you to use that stuff, and how far racial feats improve a species by denying them much of the normal feats.
Naderion 03-05-07, 07:26 AM	What's wrong with banded mail? That's basically the best type of armor there is heavier than chain shirt.
runestar 03-05-07, 08:32 AM	I'm thinking:Kobold almighty deathbringer, STR 17, DEX 12, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 17 How the heck are you getting those stats? They can be quite strong with a little twinking. Take the dragonwrought feat and alter self into dragons. Go venerable for the free +3 to all mental stats and the ability to take epic feats from 1st lv. Banded mail is quite useful early on for its relatively low cost, when you are not yet able to afford half/full plate.
boggler65 03-05-07, 09:08 AM	I've never understood quite why the kobold incurs such heavy penalties for so few gains. The MM1 states on page 162: "Thier nasty haibits and thier distrust of most other beings mean that they have many enemies." On page 161 the MM1 gives evidence in at least two places that they are clever and mechanically inclined, as well as able to mine with great efficiency. All of this points toward at least some degree of enhanced intelligence. I have never quite been able to accept the fact that they are so freaking weak. I mean ok, so they aren't supposed to be great at melee, so they're not valorous, and tend to rely on numbers and trickery instead of skills, none of that means that they can suffer so many penalties without some significant gain. A kobold's favored class is sorcerer right. Well none of thier racial traits benefit this in any way, they do not have bonuses to charisma, nor do they have bonuses to intelligence that would reflect thier pretenatural skill with traps and mining. In case no one's figured it out I kind of have a soft spot for the wildly yipping little cowards lol. Bottom line if you think about it logically; Kobolds suffer a total of -6 to key combat abilites (STR,CON), they do not gain any bonuses to mental abilites which would at least make up for thier horrifying disadvantages I mean come on they're frequently sorcerers, they are clearly intelligent give them some freaking INT or CHA bonus. Oh and they gain +2 to dex. Big deal, so a Kobold (adjusted from the racial stats given in the MM1) wearing studded leather armor and fighting a human has all of 16 ac. He's still only got about 6-8/10 HP and is probably going to get killed in about 2 rounds. Additionally even gnomes and halflings don't suffer such ridiculous ability score penalties. In my mind the +1 Natural Armor bonus is not even a factor, supposing the poor little bastard survives a single round he's most likely not even capable of scratching his opponent. For my PC Kobolds I flat out refuse to use the normal MM1 stats. Mine are as follows; -2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, +2 INT, -2 WIS They still take -6 worth of penalties to ability scores, but now they gain +4 instead of +2, and in another appropriate area, plus they still have thier +1 NA bonus. It just makes the poor little guys survive longer. Anyway that's my piece, use it as you see fit =)
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-05-07, 12:19 PM	Anyone else likin' this? P.E.A.C.H. No, I hate it. Kobolds are meant to be stealthy, hard-to-hit opportunists. Don't treat them as anything else and you'll do fine. If you want a strong lizard, play a lizardfolk or troglodyte.
boggler65 03-05-07, 06:19 PM	P.E.A.C.H??? And its not an issue of trying to play a race outside its niche, its an issue of survivability. Since no matter how well you play your Kobold is most likely going to die by level 3.
Leo 03-05-07, 06:42 PM	Well, I always tought of kobolds as cannon fodder for low level characters. They are suposed to be weak. Everybody knows low level characters die quite easily with just a little bad luck, if the kobolds hadn't got so bad penalty to strenght, they would be much more dangerous in big numbers. Like goblins. Boy do I like goblins.:P Anyway, the kobolds houldn't get bonus to int. After all, they already get bonus to trapmaking and mining, and you can't really call a race of paranoic lizards that hate everybody and hide inside mountains building traps day and night really smart.
SilverEyes 03-05-07, 09:55 PM	Used appropriately, creatures that have a negative CR can be actually good opponents. I remember having some kobold warrior 6s (CR 4) that were a good challenge for a ECL 4-5 party, keep in mind they have 6 HD and 2 attacks per round (BAB +6). Given masterwork weapons, WF, wielding two-handed, plus support from adept 6s (CR 4), they were hitting and doing some damage. While it may not have been as difficult as a more optimized set of creatures, having the party struggle with kobolds was entertaining. (It was a party of 3 level 5s, 2 level 4). Before I hear it; no one (except the cleric) is a full caster, so fireball wasn't an option :P
Fencerboy 03-05-07, 10:27 PM	I'm surprised noone has linked to PUNPUN yet! He's is in my sig, as commanded. Otherwise, a few of the right class levels and a Kobold is as formidable as anyone else, especially with a bit of poison and some needles, spikes, swinging blades... :D
cog_n_taz 03-05-07, 10:39 PM	I stand by psion/soulknife kobolds with a weasel mount, and quite possibly a hellfire aversion. ...alright, no one got the reference, okay.
Return of the Flumph 03-05-07, 10:58 PM	+2 charisma and an extra +2 dexterity (for a total racial dex adjustment of +4) makes them quite the formidable little buggers without touching their strength penalty. I've used this build to great effect.
Cyanide300 03-05-07, 11:24 PM	Eh, I think kobolds are fine the way they are. They're not meant to be fighters. None of the small races are meant to be melee combat machines. The kobold gets a +2 AC, a +1 to attack, a move speed that's 10ft higher than most small races, 60ft darkvision, a +2 on 3 different skills, and a +4 on hide checks. If you play a caster or a rogue, none of their penalties matter much at all. A smart caster won't make very many rolls using his str modifier, and the con penalty is no worse than an elf's. A kobold rogue is a hiding and trap finding machine who's faster than a gnome or halfling, and nobody cares about a -2 penalty to damage when you're rolling an extra 10d6.
runestar 03-06-07, 01:38 AM	A kobold warrior4 is cr1. That is about the only good use I can think about for them. Though I have been tempted to give them the dragonwrought kobold feat, and then throw on the dracolich template...:P Paralysing attacks at 4th lv...:D
Zombayz1 03-06-07, 01:45 AM	A kobold warrior4 is cr1. That is about the only good use I can think about for them. Though I have been tempted to give them the dragonwrought kobold feat, and then throw on the dracolich template...:P Paralysing attacks at 4th lv...:D That is sadistic. I'm so stealing this! yoink
Razieliffied 03-06-07, 01:59 AM	1d4-1? Thats what my friends look at and then get the idea that the monsters are weak from. Personally, I note the int 10 [equal to a human, with a natural afinity for traps and subterfuge] and I go to town. Heavy crossbow's for everyone and reach weapons set against charges, I play kobolds in tunnels with many many many traps and dirty tricks and over the last few months my players have come to understand that there is no such thing as a weak kobold. I love the kobolds, they have great flavor and the rules for them in the Monster Manual simply give me a challenge. My group gets a great kick out of new players seeing a kobold and deciding to 'run at the thing screaming, it's just a kobold' then having all sorts of nasty things happen to them. "I base my kobolds upon these kobolds." (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) I'm on par or worse. I've had a group of powergaming PC's at level 13 who couldn't suvive a kobold dungeon [we played it as such, I would try to kill them, they would try and get from point A to B]. I never had to break a rule :P
HammerSmashed 03-06-07, 08:18 PM	lol, I just hate Kobolds, plus is you wanna be a lizard thing why not be a Poison Dusk?
Raede 03-06-07, 11:37 PM	I personally really like my friend's writeup that makes them PC-able and focuses on their capacity as the smart trapsmiths. -2 Con, +2 Int Small Size: +1 AC, +1 on attack rolls, +4 on Sneak checks, -4 penalty on Grapple checks, Lifting and Carrying limit is ž that of a medium character. Base Speed 30 Darkvision 60 Feet +2 Racial bonus to Disable Device, Spellcraft, and Search +1 Natural Armor Bonus Taking the penalty to strength and getting a bonus to dex may be more appropriate for a more traditional D&D campaign. These ones are a little more magic trap focused.
sythspawn 03-07-07, 12:54 PM	"I base my kobolds upon these kobolds." (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) I love that essay! I'll have to remember that if I ever run a game. :D
hiryuu 03-07-07, 01:10 PM	Kobold Swordsage. With a baseline +3 to AC before the day even starts, it goes from bad to worse once you put 'em in just a measly +2 mithril chain shirt, you can get a nice AC of 26 before you start giving him defending weapons, an amulet, a ring, and Dex and Wis boosting magic items. Give him Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, and watch the little ninja go.
RobbyPants 03-07-07, 01:25 PM	If you perscribe to YabaTheWhat's Feature Points (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683), kobolds are actually a pretty decent race. This is largely due to the +1 natural AC bonus, and the small size with a 30 ft speed. This helps account for their -4 total stat penalty. Of course, in order for them to be successful at anything, you have to play to a kobold's strengths, while trying to mask their weaknesses. Without some serious re-statting, kobolds make terrible front-line melee fighters. Between their abysmally wretched Str mod and their small size weapons, they will do pathetic damage, and that Con penalty does not help things. The way to overcome this is to get size-independant damage. Sneak attack (and other precision-based damage) is a great way to do this if you want to use weapons with your kobold. A kobold rogue will be much more competant than a kobold fighter. This is about the only way I can see a kobold "fighter type" succeeding.
DeathDragon 03-07-07, 02:19 PM	I have been thinking of using Kobolds as a PC of mine for a while. Aside from 'sneak' attacking (which my DM seems to hate), I can see being a Kobold Fighter specced with Weapon Spec/Focus (Longbow/Composite) feats among others, being very dangerous with the Elite Array. Nothing like seeing a 2-3 foot creature that is hard to hit, as well as being able to move as fast as you, if not faster, and keep up a hail of arrows... I am only deciding between Fighter and Ranger for my guy. I really like the fact of being small and quick, even though damage may not be huge, survivability is.