Post/Author/DateTime	Post
YamiShinobi 12-11-07, 07:10 PM	here is where i'll be lowering core races with undeserved L.A. or weakeneing slightly overpowered races into somethin playable about L.A. there is a way you can make Tieflings and Aasimaars into the L.A.+0 category change thier types to humanoid (planetouched) and remove thier energy resistances Revised Tiefling Humanoid (planetouched) +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha (3 FP) -Darkvision 60 feet (3 FP) -medium size (0FP) -30 foot speed (0FP) +2 to hide and bluff (2 FP) -Darkness 1/day (6 FP) -favored class Rogue (0FP) -Languages:, common, infernal (0FP) -Total 14 FP Revised Aasimaar Humanoid (Planetouched) +2 Wis +2 Cha -2 Con (3 FP) -Darkvision 60 feet (3 FP) -Medium size (0FP) -30 foot speed (0FP) -+2 listen and Spot (2 FP) -Daylight 1/day (6FP) -Favored class, Cleric (0FP) -Languages:, Common Celestial (0FP) -Total 14(FP) for both, change Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched) Strip energy Resistance to balance them i gave the Aasimaar a Con Penalty. why Con? Most Celestial's that i've seen in art were slimmer and frailer. this fixes the L.A. of a planetouched
YamiShinobi 12-11-07, 07:19 PM	Pixies (Revised) — –4 Strength, -2 constitution +4 Dexterity, +2 Charisma. (3FP) —Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters. (2FP) —A pixie’s base land speed is 20 feet. It also has a fly speed of 30 feet (Average). (6 FP), however a pixie can fly for a number of rounds per day equal to twice thier level plus thier constitution modfier, (Levelx2+Con) however this replaces thier running. if taking the run feat, substitute running improvement with stamina improvement (increases to Levelx4+Conx2) (3FP) —Low-light vision. (0FP) —Skills: Pixies have a +2 racial bonus on Listen, and Spot checks. (2FP) —Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling. —Favored Class: Sorcerer. —Level adjustment +0 Total 17FP what i did cut dextirty bonus in half, reduce fly speed, strp spell like abilities, add con penalties, remove int bonus, reduce cha bonus to +2 instead of +6, remove wis bonus.
larry_the_titan 12-11-07, 09:15 PM	Nice work but you might want to drop a skill bonus to get them equal to Elves and Dwarves if I remember there costs was around 12 FP and they are considered high on the scale. Also I am kind of Curious if the Fey Creature type is balanced considering the options like Killoren. Anyone have any clue of the Feature Point cost for a Killoren?
Legdiwena 12-11-07, 09:21 PM	What is this FP?
The Ubbergeek 12-11-07, 09:30 PM	Show me orcs. (They are LA + 1, no?)
Erato 12-11-07, 09:37 PM	Nope, they're LA +0 Orcs possess the following racial traits. +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon. Favored Class: Barbarian. Better than half-orcs (though that's not saying much :)), and one level of orc paragon from UA will rid you of the light sensitivity.
FrostHammer 12-11-07, 09:50 PM	Is FP something official from UA or something?
Erato 12-11-07, 10:19 PM	Is FP something official from UA or something? It stands for Feature Points, a system oiginally made by a poster named YabbaTheWhat, to calculate the LA for different races. As far as I remember, a balanced LA +0 race should have abilities worth 10-14 FP. It's not official, and many people disagree with Yabba's priorities in how many FP a given ability is worth, but it's still the most popular system of it's kind.
FrostHammer 12-11-07, 10:39 PM	Can someone link me to a page that describes said system? I'm trying to develop a half or quarter-succubus.
YamiShinobi 12-12-07, 01:07 AM	Hobgoblins do not need to be adjusted, soemopne said they have 14 FP already Without alteration, Hobgoblins are +0 (they don't have enough stuff for +1) HOBGOBLIN CHARACTERS Hobgoblin characters possess the following racial traits. — +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. (10FP) —A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. (0FP) —Darkvision out to 60 feet. (2FP) — +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. (2FP) —Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. —Favored Class: Fighter. —Level adjustment +0 total 14FP no changes needed
Erato 12-12-07, 09:00 PM	Can someone link me to a page that describes said system? I'm trying to develop a half or quarter-succubus. Here: http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf Examples of use: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=667683&highlight=feature+points Not that I like it much myself, but it's a place to start :)
AtsuiShoto 12-13-07, 07:22 AM	Pixies (Revised) ... I hate to sound like I'm just towing the party line here, but unrestricted flight shouldn't be a +0 LA ability. There have been some recent threads discussing this issue. Also, -4 Strength does not really balance out +4 Dexterity, especially in a flying race with a charisma bonus, who will likely want to avoid all melee combat anyway and favor charisma-based spellcasting. It simply encourages just that: restricting the race to one or two viable options for basic mechanical character concept.
Phae 12-13-07, 08:19 AM	Could someone help knock down the abilities for drow? I want to play one in a friend's campaign, but he's unsure.
larry_the_titan 12-13-07, 08:32 AM	@AtsuiShoto, You are right about the flight but that is easily fixed. Copying the Raptoran's flight progression would be more then fair. The stats on the other hand put the creature more at risk. So unbalanced as you see them depending on charisma based casting can really limit the character.
YamiShinobi 12-13-07, 04:17 PM	Could someone help knock down the abilities for drow? I want to play one in a friend's campaign, but he's unsure. Drow Traits (Ex) — +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. +2 Intelligence -2 strength +2Charisma (7FP) —Darkvision out to 60 feet. This trait replaces the high elf ’s low-light vision. (3FP) —Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the shortbow, the rapier, and the short sword. This trait replaces the high elf ’s weapon proficiency. (1.5FP) — +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, unlike elves, a drow cannot notice secret doors (3FP) —Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. This trait replaces the high elf ’s automatic and bonus languages. (0FP) —Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. (-2 FP) —Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). This trait replaces the high elf ’s favored class. (0FP) —Level adjustment +0 (11.5 FP) what i did remove spell like abilities (Bad for+0), remove spell resistance (Bad for+0), removed sleep immunity (not needed for a fallen elf race), removed the notice of secret doors (there are no doors underground), lowered darkvision range. (too far) removed save bonuses (again, it's a fallen/forsaken elf race)
DeathDragon 12-17-07, 09:46 PM	How about the PsuedoDragon. I want to be the sensory part of the party (like the rogue), so it will be a bit harder to get surrounded or trapped by enemies in an area, and to scout around would be great (and as a distraction) All I can think of right now is: Dropping Con + Wis bonuses (+2 each) Dropping Sleep/Para Immunity or reducing it to just a +Resist Alter BlindSense to take some FullRoundActions to utilize it (sensing others) Flight - only mode of movement really DarkVision/LowLight - dunno about this Size - Tiny NatArmor - +4 (reduce it and allow wearing of regular armor, custom made at 2-5x cost) Str Penalty of -4 Dex Bonus of +4 Bite Attack (1 damage) Sting Attack (1d3 damage) Sleep Poison I want to make it more usable from level 1 without a penalty, or some 20-level winded progression I have worked up.
Muglock 12-17-07, 10:44 PM	Knock down the abilities for Drow? Just play a Half-Drow. Also, whats the point of this thread, and shouldn't it be renamed "Making monsters weaker so its easier for DM's to accept them as playable" What you guys are doing here is just taking everything that makes the monster/race powerful and unique, and stripping it down and ruining what it stands for and you're crushing its independant power. With as weak as these monsters are you're reducing, its a wonder they even exist at all with humans and half-orcs and things around dominating the planet.
AtsuiShoto 12-18-07, 09:58 AM	With as weak as these monsters are you're reducing, its a wonder they even exist at all with humans and half-orcs and things around dominating the planet.The trick is to find a niche. Squirrels and birds certainly aren't suffering in suburbia, despite the utter, total dominance of humans there. Other than global and oceanic environmental changes, penguins are unaffected by humans. You just need a niche.
The Ubbergeek 12-18-07, 12:51 PM	Knock down the abilities for Drow? Just play a Half-Drow. Also, whats the point of this thread, and shouldn't it be renamed "Making monsters weaker so its easier for DM's to accept them as playable" What you guys are doing here is just taking everything that makes the monster/race powerful and unique, and stripping it down and ruining what it stands for and you're crushing its independant power. With as weak as these monsters are you're reducing, its a wonder they even exist at all with humans and half-orcs and things around dominating the planet. There is a LA 0 Drow offered in the Player's Guide to faerun, its equilibred. (Or so it seemed to me...)
Muglock 12-18-07, 06:23 PM	The trick is to find a niche. Squirrels and birds certainly aren't suffering in suburbia, despite the utter, total dominance of humans there. Other than global and oceanic environmental changes, penguins are unaffected by humans. You just need a niche. Dropping a Drow's abilities are not possible. They live in the Underdark for god's sake, the most extreme environment... One of the most extreme. They are a powerful race just from where they are for survival purposes. Making them weaker would just be killing them from the natural predators and what they must do in the Underdark to survive. As for pixies and this other stuff, maybe they have a niche, but the niche is because they are powerful as it is for being small pieces of faerie dust... Take away the powers, and they are gone.
Greco 12-18-07, 06:51 PM	Revised Tiefling Humanoid (planetouched) +2 Dex +2 Int (8 FP) -medium size (0FP) -30 foot speed (0FP) +2 to hide and bluff (2 FP) -favored class Rogue (0FP) -Languages:, common, infernal (0FP) -Total 10 FP Revised Aasimaar Humanoid (Planetouched) +2 Wis +2 Cha (8 FP) -Medium size (0FP) -30 foot speed (0FP) -+2 listen and Spot (2 FP) -Favored class, Cleric (0FP) -Languages:, Common Celestial (0FP) -Total 10(FP)
YamiShinobi 12-18-07, 07:27 PM	Revised Tiefling Humanoid (planetouched) +2 Dex +2 Int (6 FP) -medium size (0FP) -30 foot speed (0FP) +2 to hide and bluff (2 FP) -Darkness 1/day (6 FP) -favored class Rogue (0FP) -Languages:, common, infernal (0FP) -Total 14 FP Revised Aasimaar Humanoid (Planetouched) +2 Wis +2 Cha (6 FP) -Medium size (0FP) -30 foot speed (0FP) -+2 listen and Spot (2 FP) -Daylight 1/day (6FP) -Favored class, Cleric (0FP) -Languages:, Common Celestial (0FP) -Total 14(FP) Would this be close to the same FP or am I off? it works
Greco 12-18-07, 07:41 PM	Zenythri +2 DEX, STR and WIS, -2 CHA (9 FP) +2 Balance, Tumble, EA and Survival (4 FP) -medium size (0FP) -30 foot speed (0FP) - Favor: Monk (0 FP) Total 13 FP Chaond +4 DEX +2 CON, -2 CHA (9 FP) +2 Tumble, EA & Balance (2 FP) -medium size (0FP) -30 foot speed (0FP) - Favor: Any (0.5 FP) Total 12.5 FP
runestar 12-18-07, 07:43 PM	IMO, the pixie's stat modifiers are still too extreme to be considered base LA+0. Even with the con penalty, they appear to make excellent warlocks or even sorcerers.
Greco 12-18-07, 07:55 PM	Hobgoblin Dark Vision 60ft (3 FP) +2 DEX and CON (8 FP) +4 Move Silent (2 FP) -medium size (0FP) -30 foot speed (0FP) - Favor: Rogue (0 FP) Total 13 FP no LA +1 Cat Folk Low light vision (0 FP) BaseLS 40ft. (6 FP) +2 DEX and +2 CHA, -2 STR (5 FP) +2 MS, Spot and Listen (3 FP) -medium size (0FP) - Favor: Rogue (0 FP) Total 14
Kelmourne 12-18-07, 08:14 PM	Dropping a Drow's abilities are not possible. They live in the Underdark for god's sake, the most extreme environment... One of the most extreme. They are a powerful race just from where they are for survival purposes. Making them weaker would just be killing them from the natural predators and what they must do in the Underdark to survive. As for pixies and this other stuff, maybe they have a niche, but the niche is because they are powerful as it is for being small pieces of faerie dust... Take away the powers, and they are gone. Actually, by making them level adj. +0, you are making them as powerful as a human or an orc, thereby giving them as much of a chance as they do. Goblins thrive in the underdark so why wouldn't +0 lvl adj. drow?
runestar 12-18-07, 08:44 PM	It is also worth noting that PGTF has a LA+0 drow variant. They have the same racial stat modifiers as elves, have a small bonus on saves vs spells in place of sr, ability to cast a small number of cantrips and light blindness.:)
Muglock 12-18-07, 09:55 PM	Goblins don't have horrifying caste systems, nor do they survive in the massive kingdom of Lloth or battle to increase in houses... Drow of the underdark, a relatively new release all about Drow, really makes sure you know just how nuts their society is... To make them +0 is to make them dead, slaves, or worse in Drow society. A weak Drow is a dead drow.
Bahumut 12-18-07, 10:43 PM	Goblins don't have horrifying caste systems, nor do they survive in the massive kingdom of Lloth or battle to increase in houses... Drow of the underdark, a relatively new release all about Drow, really makes sure you know just how nuts their society is... To make them +0 is to make them dead, slaves, or worse in Drow society. A weak Drow is a dead drow. ...or maybe it could be the stats for the Eilistrae worshipping drow. stop being so narrow minded, and try thinking of alternate possibilites instead of immediately saying something is crap because it doesn't conform to YOUR view of the Drow. on a different note, mechanically, the drow are a VERY weak race for their +2 LA. just about any level 3 human could whomp a drow in 2.8 seconds.
RobbyPants 12-19-07, 09:34 AM	Looking at the feature points, I can see where hobgoblins would be LA +0, abliet a bit on the powerful side. In the game I'm running currently, that's how I have them statted. Still, some people feel that the stat adjustments are worth more than what YabaTheWhat's feature point system credits them. In another thread a few months back, I created a variant LA +0 hobgoblin based on some suggestions by ReturnOfTheFlumph. Now, if you feel the MM hobgoblin is perfectly fine as-is, then there's no reason to use this version. I figured I'd post it in the spirit of the thread for all who are interested. Hobgoblins Hobgoblin characters possess the following racial traits. +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. Hobgoblins are agile but arrogant. A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Toughness as a bonus feat. Hobgoblins are burly and tough. +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. Hobgoblins are naturally stealthy, like all goblinoids. +2 racial bonus on Knowledge(History) checks. Hobgoblin culture stresses the study of the history of warfare. +2 racial bonus on Profession(Siege Engeineering) checks. Hobgoblins are trained in the use of siege engines. +1 racial bonus to hit against elves. Hobgoblins are skilled at fighting their hated enemy. Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. Favored Class: Fighter. Level adjustment +0 Anyway, that's what I came up with, with a small amount of fluff mixed in with the rules. What I was aiming for was a total stat modifier of +0, and a few minor abilities sprinkled in like all the other races get.
Muglock 12-19-07, 04:51 PM	...or maybe it could be the stats for the Eilistrae worshipping drow. stop being so narrow minded, and try thinking of alternate possibilites instead of immediately saying something is crap because it doesn't conform to YOUR view of the Drow. on a different note, mechanically, the drow are a VERY weak race for their +2 LA. just about any level 3 human could whomp a drow in 2.8 seconds. My view of a drow? I appologize that you don't like the fact MY view of the Drow is what Wizards has created them as since 3.0 came out. Since you seem to think that view is some sort of ludicrous idea, perhaps you should know something. If I create a level 1 Drow Rogue, cast darkness around a level 3 human when he doesnt notice me, I can destroy your level 3 human. ESPECIALLY if he has to take a move action to run out of the darkness, or he tries to fight me off in the darkness at -10. I don't know WHAT drow you're speaking of, but you came off as sour and quite rude to me, I don't know what I did to deserve it other than saying Drow aren't pansies, and they certainly arent meant to be weak. Also, friend, why would the stats for the Elistrae worshipping drow be so much -weaker-? What, do the Elistrae worshipping Drow suddenly become a piece of crap? I don't know about those Drow, but if my deity made me a piece of crap in comparison to the rest of my race, I'd stop believing in him fast. And, to mock you, "ON A DIFFERENT NOTE" 2.8 seconds isn't even a single round of Dungeons and Dragons combat, jackass. Therefore, NO ONES DROPPING anything in that amount of time. On top of that, I guess you think Drow aren't that powerful, but I definitley consider the view of it taking a level three human fighter just to defeat one level one Drow as pretty good for a black skinned elf.
The Ubbergeek 12-19-07, 05:17 PM	You DO realise that on a strict mechanical view, the HIGHER the LA of a race, the worse you are gimped, especially for a spellcaster and higher levels? you start up stronger... but you lag behind. Really, LA is not all. I'd argue this is at least a stronger Drow than at LA +2. And they are not, black, but dark, minor difference.
Kelmourne 12-19-07, 06:14 PM	Goblins don't have horrifying caste systems, nor do they survive in the massive kingdom of Lloth or battle to increase in houses... Drow of the underdark, a relatively new release all about Drow, really makes sure you know just how nuts their society is... To make them +0 is to make them dead, slaves, or worse in Drow society. A weak Drow is a dead drow. I know all about how horrid drow society is. In their society, if they were all weakened to lvl. adj. +0 it wouldn't be a prob. I admitt if ONE of them were to be +0 and the rest +2 it would be unfair and the +0 would die but if all the drow were +0 nothing much would change. Maybe be a little more reluctant about traveling outside of their cities. Also all noble drow would maintain a certain level of skill because they are trained from the age of 12 I think? Or was it 14?
Legdiwena 12-19-07, 06:27 PM	I know all about how horrid drow society is. In their society, if they were all weakened to lvl. adj. +0 it wouldn't be a prob. I admitt if ONE of them were to be +0 and the rest +2 it would be unfair and the +0 would die but if all the drow were +0 nothing much would change. Maybe be a little more reluctant about traveling outside of their cities. Also all noble drow would maintain a certain level of skill because they are trained from the age of 12 I think? Or was it 14? I thought they were trained from about 1-2 years old.
HernetheHunter 12-19-07, 06:35 PM	Muglock dude... Your view, his view, all views pale before my view. I am the DM and my drow are different from all other drow. My drow are currently the Nazi's of my campaign, but I have also stripped thier SLAs and other nifty-ness down to bonus feats attainable at different levels. Otherwise they are just a dark skinned race of elves. They also live on the surface but keep thier penalties to light. Your view and WoTC view will differ as well. Currently the Drow are represented in multiple settings and each setting's drow are different from the others. Enjoy the game and revel in other peoples opinions and perceptions.
Muglock 12-19-07, 07:16 PM	I just know that they were, at least at one time, feared for their power as a race of powerful elves.
Kelmourne 12-19-07, 07:35 PM	People feared the nazis as well and they didn't have a +2 to cha.
The Ubbergeek 12-19-07, 10:35 PM	It is also the 'boggeyman' factor... the dark, violent and frightening tales, brought by the elves and the ones who know them.... Even in FR, they are rare - very rare. Few know how is the Underdark, and how they are. (it's also good for duergar, svirfneblin, etc...) And raw power is not all. Even at LA, 0, they can be very dangerous... they have their brains, their knowledges....
Kelmourne 12-19-07, 11:01 PM	I thought they were trained from about 1-2 years old. In Homeland by R.A. Salvatore, drizzt learns to manifest his inate powers from age 1-12 and he also learns the basics of drow culture. Thats pretty much it. When he is 12 or 14, he is entered into his fathers training hall and starts learning to become a warrior. Due to the long life-spans of elves, they have a long time to pick up some levels here and there, they get really skilled.
Tyonisius 12-20-07, 02:31 AM	I've been looking at the links provided to the system you are using as well as the examples given in both the link and this thread and I'm having some troubles figuring out exactly how to use this tool. My numbers are usually a few off from the ones that you are providing. Are we using different charts maybe? Or is there something that I am doing wrong? Any help you can provide me in figuring this out will be greatly appreciated as I am trying to create some custom races for a campaign I am going to be running in the new year.
Legdiwena 12-20-07, 01:16 PM	In Homeland by R.A. Salvatore, drizzt learns to manifest his inate powers from age 1-12 and he also learns the basics of drow culture. Thats pretty much it. When he is 12 or 14, he is entered into his fathers training hall and starts learning to become a warrior. Due to the long life-spans of elves, they have a long time to pick up some levels here and there, they get really skilled. I thought you were talking about nobles being trained in their innate abilities, not just class training.