LA+0 half-giant? [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA+0 half-giant? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Melayl
04-09-07, 10:33 PM If you remove the Fire Acclimated, Naturally Psionic, and Psi-like ability from the 1/2 giant, would that make it LA+0?
Part-Human2
04-09-07, 10:56 PM According to the Half-Giant Racial class (CPsi) removing Powerful build, +2 STR, psi-like abilities, and naturally psionic would be like +0 LA. They put those as the "2nd" level of the class.
Willie the Duck
04-09-07, 11:35 PM powerful build, in particular, would be tough to get into a La+0 race. While it isn't the most awesome thing ever in increasing your power level, the number of situations where it provides a substantial benefit (grappling, bull rushing, tripping, +2-3.5 damage per attack) shores up alot of weaknesses a martial build might suffer. Making it +0 would push dwarves and humans right out of the warrior business.
The_Shaman
04-10-07, 04:28 AM Basically give half-orcs (possibly without the charisma penalty) psionic talent and the psi-like and you might have a relative fit.
Melayl
04-10-07, 11:56 AM Thanks for all the responses.

According to the Half-Giant Racial class (CPsi) removing Powerful build, +2 STR, psi-like abilities, and naturally psionic would be like +0 LA. They put those as the "2nd" level of the class.

powerful build, in particular, would be tough to get into a La+0 race. While it isn't the most awesome thing ever in increasing your power level, the number of situations where it provides a substantial benefit (grappling, bull rushing, tripping, +2-3.5 damage per attack) shores up alot of weaknesses a martial build might suffer. Making it +0 would push dwarves and humans right out of the warrior business.

What about this:

+2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT
Humanoid instead of Giant classification
Medium size
Base speed 30
Low-light vision
Ability to use weapons of 1 size larger without penalty (basically very reduced Powerful Build)
Preferred class Fighter (or maybe Barbarian)

Would that qualify as LA +0, or do I still need to do some modifying?
The_Shaman
04-10-07, 11:59 AM Just go around with an exotic large version of a typical weapon, i.e. fullblade. 1 feat should be easy enough.
Khatoblepas
04-10-07, 12:24 PM +2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT
No. This makes them the perfect martial race.
Humanoid instead of Giant classification
No. I've said it many times before - Humanoid allows Enlarge Person. You ever see a Large humanoid? Or humanoid with Powerful Build? No. This is what Giant is for.
Ability to use weapons of 1 size larger without penalty (basically very reduced Powerful Build)
This is the main draw of Powerful Build. Coupled with the humanoid type and the stat bonuses, this makes them still far too powerful to be LA+0. At level 1 they could be wielding Huge weapons.

Powerful Build is something that belongs in an LA+1 build. In order to balance it (PB isn't worth LA+1 on it's own), a race is given other goodies to make it playable. Just like more powerful races have more than just their schtick, Powerful Build can never be in a race of less than LA+1. It's just not done.

HOWEVER. You can have an LA+0 race that develops Powerful Build (heck, even an increase of size catagory) over the course of it's HD, just like Raptorans and flying, or the Githyanki and their psi-like abilities. I don't know how to balance that, though.
Part-Human2
04-10-07, 12:31 PM ...
Ability to use weapons of 1 size larger without penalty (basically very reduced Powerful Build)
...
Would that qualify as LA +0, or do I still need to do some modifying?

The Monkey Grip feat (CW) does the same thing but still imposes -2 to the attack with said weapon. I'd be careful because players may attempt to "stack" the 2 abilities.
Melayl
04-10-07, 02:07 PM No. I've said it many times before - Humanoid allows Enlarge Person. You ever see a Large humanoid? Or humanoid with Powerful Build? No. This is what Giant is for.

I had actually intended Humanoid to be a drawback -- Giant type gives immunity to things like Charm Person and Dominate Person. I hadn't thought about things like Enlarge Person. You have a good point. I should probably keep the Giant type then.

This is the main draw of Powerful Build. Coupled with the humanoid type and the stat bonuses, this makes them still far too powerful to be LA+0. At level 1 they could be wielding Huge weapons.
.

I can see how the larger weapon size is the main draw (it's why I wanted it, after all). I don't get the Huge weapons at level 1, though. They're Medium creatures, not Large creatures. I could be missing a step.

HOWEVER. You can have an LA+0 race that develops Powerful Build (heck, even an increase of size catagory) over the course of it's HD, just like Raptorans and flying, or the Githyanki and their psi-like abilities.

How about making PB available to them as a feat choice, rather than an automatic racial ability?

As for the stats, How about: +2 STR, -3 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT for balance?
Spikes01k
04-10-07, 02:27 PM I built a Powerful Build LA +0 race. They are called Hill Orcs (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=811764). Which are pretty balanced, you can use them and apply your own story.

*+2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Wis
*Movement 30ft
*Medium Size
*Humanoid
*Dark Vision 60ft
* Optimal Build: The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category, but not with the feat monkey grip and other feats that allow using larger weapons.The physical stature of hill orc lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger; but like powerful build they are only treated as one size large when dealing with large weapons, when they are becoming immune to special abilities, and eventually with opposed rolls where size is a matter.
At 1 hit die a hill orc can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. A hill orc is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him.
After obtaining 3 hit die whenever a hill orc is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the hill orc is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. Optimal build should be treated as powerful build from here on and be treated as monkey grip when meeting the prerequisites for feats and prestige classes.
At 21 hit die a hill orc does not need to meet the requirements for strength for the "Weild Oversized Weapon" epic feat; although the ability to use large weapons does not stack with optimaled build they do gain the other bonuses.
*+2 racial bonus to Spot and Listen; hill orcs may not be the wises of beings but they are no less observant than anyone else.
Spikes01k
04-10-07, 02:39 PM Thanks for all the responses.

What about this:

+2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT
Humanoid instead of Giant classification
Medium size
Base speed 30
Low-light vision
Ability to use weapons of 1 size larger without penalty (basically very reduced Powerful Build)
Preferred class Fighter (or maybe Barbarian)

Would that qualify as LA +0, or do I still need to do some modifying?

Seems about balanced, but why wouldn't they have dark vision; although dark vision could cause problem.
Khatoblepas
04-10-07, 02:41 PM I can see how the larger weapon size is the main draw (it's why I wanted it, after all). I don't get the Huge weapons at level 1, though. They're Medium creatures, not Large creatures. I could be missing a step.

Humanoid Type + PB + Enlarge Person = WHEE! HUGE GREATSWORDS! It's why Half-Giants are Giant type, and Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoid. Besides which, they're half-giants, and making them humanoid just wouldn't fit flavor-wise.

How about making PB available to them as a feat choice, rather than an automatic racial ability?

Excellent idea, it would syncronise well with other racial feats like Catfolk Pounce. I'd give it a BAB/HD requirement, though. BAB +6?

As for the stats, How about: +2 STR, -3 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT for balance?

Odd racial bonuses and penalties are disallowed in 3.5. I'd say +2 Str -2 Dex, and -2 Int if you're going to add in some more stuff for them (psi-like abilities etc). No Con bonus as well as Str bonus for LA+0s, it's another thing that's not done.
AMGriffin
04-10-07, 03:12 PM ...+2 Strength, +2 Constitution at the cost of -2 Dexterity and -2 Intelligence is not unbalanced.
Spikes01k
04-10-07, 03:17 PM ...+2 Strength, +2 Constitution at the cost of -2 Dexterity and -2 Intelligence is not unbalanced.

You are correct. It is not unbalanced but rather distasteful to some. I personally see no problem with it, especially applying it to the DMG rules for new races. God look at the orc.
Melayl
04-10-07, 04:04 PM Ok, after reading responses, I think I'll go with this:

+2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT
Giant-type
Medium size
Base speed 30
Low-light vision
Preferred class: Fighter or Barbarian

May take Oversized Build as a racial feat (see below)

Oversized Build [Half-Giant]
Prereq: Half-giant, BAB +2

A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial feat stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
demroth
04-10-07, 04:20 PM I recommend you look at the Goliaths from The Races of Stone. Many have considered that race to be one of the best powerful build races out there with better stats and racial abilities than the half-giant. It may be worthwhile to try and see what you can take off that race to make it at LA +0 and then compare it to the LA +0 half-giant you want to create.
primemover003
04-10-07, 06:01 PM The FRCS has a feat called Jotunbrud which basically gives everything Powerful Build gives except the weapon size upgrade. It's pretty much the prototype for Powerful build. It's a Regional 1st level only feat, but it could work well for your half giant concept by playing a human.

An LA 0 race I've developed with powerful build is a Small sized Dwarf (takes up the niche filled by dwarves and gnomes in my homebrew).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melayl 04-09-07, 10:33 PM	If you remove the Fire Acclimated, Naturally Psionic, and Psi-like ability from the 1/2 giant, would that make it LA+0?
Part-Human2 04-09-07, 10:56 PM	According to the Half-Giant Racial class (CPsi) removing Powerful build, +2 STR, psi-like abilities, and naturally psionic would be like +0 LA. They put those as the "2nd" level of the class.
Willie the Duck 04-09-07, 11:35 PM	powerful build, in particular, would be tough to get into a La+0 race. While it isn't the most awesome thing ever in increasing your power level, the number of situations where it provides a substantial benefit (grappling, bull rushing, tripping, +2-3.5 damage per attack) shores up alot of weaknesses a martial build might suffer. Making it +0 would push dwarves and humans right out of the warrior business.
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 04:28 AM	Basically give half-orcs (possibly without the charisma penalty) psionic talent and the psi-like and you might have a relative fit.
Melayl 04-10-07, 11:56 AM	Thanks for all the responses. According to the Half-Giant Racial class (CPsi) removing Powerful build, +2 STR, psi-like abilities, and naturally psionic would be like +0 LA. They put those as the "2nd" level of the class. powerful build, in particular, would be tough to get into a La+0 race. While it isn't the most awesome thing ever in increasing your power level, the number of situations where it provides a substantial benefit (grappling, bull rushing, tripping, +2-3.5 damage per attack) shores up alot of weaknesses a martial build might suffer. Making it +0 would push dwarves and humans right out of the warrior business. What about this: +2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT Humanoid instead of Giant classification Medium size Base speed 30 Low-light vision Ability to use weapons of 1 size larger without penalty (basically very reduced Powerful Build) Preferred class Fighter (or maybe Barbarian) Would that qualify as LA +0, or do I still need to do some modifying?
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 11:59 AM	Just go around with an exotic large version of a typical weapon, i.e. fullblade. 1 feat should be easy enough.
Khatoblepas 04-10-07, 12:24 PM	+2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT No. This makes them the perfect martial race. Humanoid instead of Giant classification No. I've said it many times before - Humanoid allows Enlarge Person. You ever see a Large humanoid? Or humanoid with Powerful Build? No. This is what Giant is for. Ability to use weapons of 1 size larger without penalty (basically very reduced Powerful Build) This is the main draw of Powerful Build. Coupled with the humanoid type and the stat bonuses, this makes them still far too powerful to be LA+0. At level 1 they could be wielding Huge weapons. Powerful Build is something that belongs in an LA+1 build. In order to balance it (PB isn't worth LA+1 on it's own), a race is given other goodies to make it playable. Just like more powerful races have more than just their schtick, Powerful Build can never be in a race of less than LA+1. It's just not done. HOWEVER. You can have an LA+0 race that develops Powerful Build (heck, even an increase of size catagory) over the course of it's HD, just like Raptorans and flying, or the Githyanki and their psi-like abilities. I don't know how to balance that, though.
Part-Human2 04-10-07, 12:31 PM	... Ability to use weapons of 1 size larger without penalty (basically very reduced Powerful Build) ... Would that qualify as LA +0, or do I still need to do some modifying? The Monkey Grip feat (CW) does the same thing but still imposes -2 to the attack with said weapon. I'd be careful because players may attempt to "stack" the 2 abilities.
Melayl 04-10-07, 02:07 PM	No. I've said it many times before - Humanoid allows Enlarge Person. You ever see a Large humanoid? Or humanoid with Powerful Build? No. This is what Giant is for. I had actually intended Humanoid to be a drawback -- Giant type gives immunity to things like Charm Person and Dominate Person. I hadn't thought about things like Enlarge Person. You have a good point. I should probably keep the Giant type then. This is the main draw of Powerful Build. Coupled with the humanoid type and the stat bonuses, this makes them still far too powerful to be LA+0. At level 1 they could be wielding Huge weapons. . I can see how the larger weapon size is the main draw (it's why I wanted it, after all). I don't get the Huge weapons at level 1, though. They're Medium creatures, not Large creatures. I could be missing a step. HOWEVER. You can have an LA+0 race that develops Powerful Build (heck, even an increase of size catagory) over the course of it's HD, just like Raptorans and flying, or the Githyanki and their psi-like abilities. How about making PB available to them as a feat choice, rather than an automatic racial ability? As for the stats, How about: +2 STR, -3 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT for balance?
Spikes01k 04-10-07, 02:27 PM	I built a Powerful Build LA +0 race. They are called Hill Orcs (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=811764). Which are pretty balanced, you can use them and apply your own story. +2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Wis Movement 30ft Medium Size Humanoid Dark Vision 60ft Optimal Build: The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category, but not with the feat monkey grip and other feats that allow using larger weapons.The physical stature of hill orc lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger; but like powerful build they are only treated as one size large when dealing with large weapons, when they are becoming immune to special abilities, and eventually with opposed rolls where size is a matter. At 1 hit die a hill orc can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. A hill orc is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. After obtaining 3 hit die whenever a hill orc is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the hill orc is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. Optimal build should be treated as powerful build from here on and be treated as monkey grip when meeting the prerequisites for feats and prestige classes. At 21 hit die a hill orc does not need to meet the requirements for strength for the "Weild Oversized Weapon" epic feat; although the ability to use large weapons does not stack with optimaled build they do gain the other bonuses. *+2 racial bonus to Spot and Listen; hill orcs may not be the wises of beings but they are no less observant than anyone else.
Spikes01k 04-10-07, 02:39 PM	Thanks for all the responses. What about this: +2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT Humanoid instead of Giant classification Medium size Base speed 30 Low-light vision Ability to use weapons of 1 size larger without penalty (basically very reduced Powerful Build) Preferred class Fighter (or maybe Barbarian) Would that qualify as LA +0, or do I still need to do some modifying? Seems about balanced, but why wouldn't they have dark vision; although dark vision could cause problem.
Khatoblepas 04-10-07, 02:41 PM	I can see how the larger weapon size is the main draw (it's why I wanted it, after all). I don't get the Huge weapons at level 1, though. They're Medium creatures, not Large creatures. I could be missing a step. Humanoid Type + PB + Enlarge Person = WHEE! HUGE GREATSWORDS! It's why Half-Giants are Giant type, and Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoid. Besides which, they're half-giants, and making them humanoid just wouldn't fit flavor-wise. How about making PB available to them as a feat choice, rather than an automatic racial ability? Excellent idea, it would syncronise well with other racial feats like Catfolk Pounce. I'd give it a BAB/HD requirement, though. BAB +6? As for the stats, How about: +2 STR, -3 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT for balance? Odd racial bonuses and penalties are disallowed in 3.5. I'd say +2 Str -2 Dex, and -2 Int if you're going to add in some more stuff for them (psi-like abilities etc). No Con bonus as well as Str bonus for LA+0s, it's another thing that's not done.
AMGriffin 04-10-07, 03:12 PM	...+2 Strength, +2 Constitution at the cost of -2 Dexterity and -2 Intelligence is not unbalanced.
Spikes01k 04-10-07, 03:17 PM	...+2 Strength, +2 Constitution at the cost of -2 Dexterity and -2 Intelligence is not unbalanced. You are correct. It is not unbalanced but rather distasteful to some. I personally see no problem with it, especially applying it to the DMG rules for new races. God look at the orc.
Melayl 04-10-07, 04:04 PM	Ok, after reading responses, I think I'll go with this: +2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT Giant-type Medium size Base speed 30 Low-light vision Preferred class: Fighter or Barbarian May take Oversized Build as a racial feat (see below) Oversized Build [Half-Giant] Prereq: Half-giant, BAB +2 A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial feat stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
demroth 04-10-07, 04:20 PM	I recommend you look at the Goliaths from The Races of Stone. Many have considered that race to be one of the best powerful build races out there with better stats and racial abilities than the half-giant. It may be worthwhile to try and see what you can take off that race to make it at LA +0 and then compare it to the LA +0 half-giant you want to create.
primemover003 04-10-07, 06:01 PM	The FRCS has a feat called Jotunbrud which basically gives everything Powerful Build gives except the weapon size upgrade. It's pretty much the prototype for Powerful build. It's a Regional 1st level only feat, but it could work well for your half giant concept by playing a human. An LA 0 race I've developed with powerful build is a Small sized Dwarf (takes up the niche filled by dwarves and gnomes in my homebrew).