Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lady Maedhros 01-15-06, 06:11 PM	I think there are LA +0 minotaurs in one of the published settings - Krynn maybe? - but i don't have any settings sourcebooks and don't intend to ever buy any, and this is a lot more fun (and campaign-world specific!). Fluff and Crunch are up for criticism. Orcs in Altenmur (campaign world) are more sophisticated - tribal, spiritual and reasonably mercantile - if not particularly more moral than standard Greyhawk orcs. This leaves room open for the "Me Gurt. Gurt SMASH" stereotype to be filled by some other race, and i've always liked minotaurs. Although even a minotaur has to be slightly more complicated than that. :rolleyes: While their large, brutish cousins do still exist in hidden places beneath the earth, most minotaurs found in Altenmur today are of the smaller, more civilized kind. That’s not to say they’re generally anything but brutish; still, the minotaurs of this day and age can at least fit through most doors, and generally restrain themselves from eating anything that used to wear clothing. Personality: Minotaurs are short-tempered, solitary and gruff as a rule. They’re very physical creatures, lovers of food, drink and battle more than art, philosophy or even basic conversation. They’re not easily bored (a byproduct of limited intellect and even more limited imagination), and can carry out a basic task such as standing guard or unloading a ship for hours on end without ever getting uninterested or fed up (or particularly tired). Minotaurs are not exceptionally loyal of disposition, but are difficult to bribe or dissuade due to their single-track nature – when given a task (or having taken one on), a minotaur will usually pursue it until it is completed against all but the strongest motivation to stop. In a sense, they lack the imagination to be distracted. Physical Description: Minotaurs are massive, with males averaging seven feet and five to six hundred pounds, and females only marginally smaller. Their hands are four-fingered and wide, with thick dark nails of the same hard substance that composes their hooves and long, brown or black horns. Females are slightly less broad in the shoulder and generally have shorter, more curved horns than males. Both genders have manes of longer, darker hair on their heads and in tufts at the end of their long, flexible tails. Their bodies are covered in stiff hair that ranges in color from tan or gold to a rich russet, with occasional white or black aberrations. Markings are rare, but possible, generally confined to light patches on the forehead, chest or upper arms. Minotaurs are fond of heavy clothing and often wear ring or chainmail on a day-to-day basis simply for the weight, though they generally avoid bright colors or loose accoutrements like cloaks and ostentatious jewelry. Relations: Minotaurs get along best with orcs, respecting the strength and endurance they see in that race, as well as finding satisfaction in the shared tendency to solve problems with direct, brute force. They also harbor a great respect for sturdy, hardened dwarves; sadly, dwarves themselves have only suspicion and contempt for these descendents of an ancient dwarven foe. Adeshi they usually simply overlook, creatures of such stature being little worth their notice. Haughty and sophisticated elves, inquisitive batfolk and clever humans often frustrate and anger minotaurs, who always feel like they’ve been left out of the joke. Alignment: While few minotaurs are truly cruel, equally few are truly altruistic or even more than mostly self-interested. They lack both the inclination towards organization and the whims of real caprice, and as such are generally neutral. Minotaur Lands: Minotaurs don’t really have specific territory. Their general inability to interact with each other for long periods of time without quite literally butting heads means that they tend to live isolated from each other, and reproduce slowly at best. Most often, they’re found scattered throughout large cities, where they feel comfortable surrounded by stone and can find easy jobs doing brute labor and security. A few, however, live solitary lives in the mountains as hunters and wanderers. Religion: Faith is very much a “who cares?” issue for the average minotaur. However, on occasion, when a minotaur is exposed to a religious person or concept, something takes light inside him; such minotaurs are as fervent and passionate in their faith as the most fanatic of human believers. Kastor is naturally a common choice, but there's no accounting for minotaur faith, and a towering, broad-shouldered cleric of Laeron is just as plausible as a warlike minotaur devout of the violent Twins. Language: Minotaurs speak an extremely bastardized dialect of terran; a minotaur and an earth elemental could only understand each other if both spoke very slowly and avoided any kind of idiom or slang. Of course, the typical minotaur has little occasion to speak any language other than the language of the region where he lives, and if he’s learned to read and write he generally does so in that language. Names: Minotaurs don’t actually give their children names. Their ancestors, lacking any kind of formal society, had no need to refer to each other. Among other races, they’re often simply given names by friends, neighbors or employers who need a way to refer to them. In Nordjung, however, it’s a tradition to take a (pronounceable) terran adjective for a name. By far the most common is “Strong.” Terran adjective names: Gorog (strong), Gakon (having horns), Urruk (tall), Moek (heavy), Asolem (very heavy), Lom (loud). Adventurers: Though minotaurs are uncommon, it is not uncommon for a minotaur to adventure. He might work the same job for a decade or more and then one day simply decide he’s going to do something different now and end up on the trail; or he might simply routinely hire himself out as a bodyguard or tomb raider on a regular basis. They might not bore easily, but minotaurs still enjoy a good physical challenge and will seek one if they find such challenge lacking. Minotaur Racial Traits • +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence. Minotaurs are tough and strong, but a little too muscle-bound for delicate movement and not nearly as sturdy of mind as they are of body. • Medium size. Minotaurs have no penalties or benefits from size. • Minotaur base speed is 30’. • Tough Hide: Minotaur hair is coarse and their skin is thick and tough, providing some protection against attack. A minotaur’s skin provides him a +2 armor bonus to AC. This is not natural armor and does not stack with other effects that grant an armor bonus. If a minotaur wears a suit of armor or other protective item over his body, he only applies the better of the two bonuses to his armor class. His tough hide does not inflict any armor check penalties or arcane spell failure chance on him, and it cannot be permanently enhanced by magical means, nor is it subject to improvement from spells or powers that target armor, such as magic vestment and armor enhancement. Because it is organic, however, it does protect against brilliant energy weapons. • Canny: Though minotaurs are not especially intelligent, they possess an incredible sense of direction and spatial relations. A minotaur is immune to maze spells and similar effects, and is always able to retrace his steps so long as he’s been able to observe each step of his journey. • Brute: Although a minotaur is bipedal, his carrying capacity is that of a quadruped of his size and strength. Minotaurs have unusually dense bone structure and very stable weight distribution on their skeletons, allowing them to comfortably heft loads other humanoids would collapse beneath. In addition, a minotaur has a +2 racial bonus on checks and saves to resist nonlethal damage from exertion. • Automatic Languages: Minotaur, regional. Bonus languages: Trade, dwarven, giant, orc. Starting Age: adulthood: 40 years simple class: +2d8 trained class: +2d12 scholarly class: +3d10 middle age: 110 yrs old age: 165 yrs venerable: 220 yrs max: +6d20 height & weight: male: base height 6'10", modifier +3d8 base weight 300 lbs, modifier x2d8 female: base height 5'10", modifier +3d8 base weight 280 lbs, modifier x2d8 GLYPH OF THE MAZEDWELLER [RACIAL] You are never lost. Prerequisite: Minotaur, Wis 15, Con 13. Benefit:As a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you may concentrate on your surroundings to determine exactly where you are. If you are in territory unknown to you on your home plane, you can locate yourself in terms of known territory – eg, “Seven days south-southwest of Ta-Rash village by foot” or “The mouth of a tributary of the Snowmelt River.” You can immediately identify any plane on which you find yourself, and if you have been transported between any two points by nonmagical means, you can retrace your steps, even if you were unconscious or incapacitated for any part of the journey. THICK SKIN [RACIAL] Your hide is tougher and more durable than others of your race. Prerequisite: Minotaur, character level 1st. Benefit: You do not gain your normal racial armor benefit from Tough Hide. Instead, you have +2 natural armor. FURIOUS CHARGE [RACIAL, FIGHTER] You're no stranger to simply dropping your horns and smashing headlong into your foes, and have learned to make the most of your momentum. Prerequisite: Minotaur, BAB +1 Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on the attack roll you make at the end of a charge, rather than the normal +2. Minotaurs who tap into the essence of what it means to be a minotaur can gain minotaur paragon levels. Through training and battle, they push their natural abilities to the limit and even grow in size. Hit Die: d12 Prereqs: Str 13, Con 11, must be a minotaur Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering or nature), Listen, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim Skill points: 4 + Int modifier. (This would be 2, if I believed in giving 2 points per level) Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Natural cunning 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Iron Hide 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Strength bonus 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Scent 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Powerful Build Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A minotaur paragon is proficient in basic weapons, axes, clubs and hammers, and the exotic members of those groups. He is proficient with light and medium armor, but not shields. (This would be all simple + martial melee for those who don't use weapon groups.) Natural Cunning: In addition to his normal ability to resist maze spells and never get lost, a minotaur paragon is never caught flat-footed. Iron Hide: At second level, the minotaur paragon’s bonus from Tough Hide to AC (or natural armor bonus, if he has the Thick Skin feat) increases to +3. Strength Bonus: The essence of the minotaur is strength. At third level, the paragon gains a +2 bonus to his Strength score. Scent: A fourth level minotaur paragon taps into the primal senses of his savage forebears, and learns to take full advantage of his powerful nose. He gains the Scent special ability. Powerful Build: At fifth level, a minotaur paragon gains the Powerful Build trait, allowing him to treat himself as size Large if it is advantageous to him. So we've kicked around this natural armor thing extensively. I'm reasonably happy with the race as it stands, right now, but i strive ever for perfection, so more comments are always welcome. Okay, I'm happy with the race, and playtesting thus far seems to support it as it stands (Gurt the ranger/barbarian is now level 8 and hasn't broken my game yet). I'm still always glad to hear comments, of course, but my focus is now on the feats (furious charge seems weak to me) and the paragon class (more Monte Cook than Wizards in inspiration, and I may throw in a PrC later that lets minos become Large, a la his giants).
Talen Lee 01-15-06, 06:33 PM	For pure mechanics, I think you're pushing the limits of an LA 0. The race gets (and I apologise for not reading the fluff) +1 natural armour, balanced (IMHO) stat mods, and a bonus feat, and a boosted carrying capacity (which may as well be fluff for my money). It's solid, very solid indeed - and compares favourably to the Catfolk (a decent LA +1), which leads me to suspect it's just a bit over the curve. The thing that does that is the Natural Armour bonus; I'm trying to think of ways to adjust it. Consider the merits of giving them 'thick hide', or somesuch - a natural armour bonus that only covers some areas, and therefore, doesn't stack with armour; say, a +3. This would mean they still have the 'tough skin' angle, but it wouldn't be as good or as versatile as having actual Natural Armour would. In effect, it would be giving them leather armour for free at first level, which, while technically a freebie, is still not about to be broken. You could then expand on that armour with ritualistic tattoos and similar to power up this 'natural' armour. It's just an idea that captures the flavour of natural armour without being the real deal - your thoughts?
Lady Maedhros 01-15-06, 07:40 PM	Hmn. I like that, it's interesting and unique. Something like Thick Hide: A minotaur's skin is thick and leathery, and his coarse fur provides him with some measure of protection to the vital areas of his body. This affords him a +3 natural armor bonus to AC. This does not, however, protect him any better than most forms of conventional armor, and therefore does not stack with any armor bonus provided to him by his clothing or gear. I can see a few problems, though. How does this interact with a brilliant energy weapon, which ignores Armor bonuses but not Natural Armor bonuses? Whips are supposedly deterred by natural armor of +3 or higher. Does that include this "virtual" +3 or not? If a minotaur takes the Improved Natural Armor feat, does he get +1 "real" natural armor, or +4 non-stacking? :thinks: Thick Hide: A minotaur's skin is thick and leathery, and his coarse fur provides him with some measure of protection to the vital areas of his body. This affords him a +3 racial armor bonus to AC. A racial armor bonus does not stack with the armor bonus from mundane or magical equipment, or with natural armor, nor does it provide protection against whips or brilliant energy weapons. It does qualify a creature for the Improved Natural Armor feat (MM1 304), which replaces the racial armor bonus with a natural armor bonus of +1. Can't see why a minotaur would ever want to actually take Improved Natural Armor, but then that would be perfectly consistent with every other creature with natural armor, so i guess that's a good thing. :tongue:
Talen Lee 01-15-06, 07:44 PM	Yeah, it's up to you. I wouldn't even call it a 'Natural Armour' bonus, since, realistically speaking, it's best handled by being an Armour Bonus that happens to be from the Minotaur's body. That solves a lot of issues (Brilliant Energy, stacking with other stuff). It's just linguistically confusing if you don't explicate it. Thick Hide (Ex): Minotaurs' hide is exceptionally strong and rough - and even untouched by craftsmen is easily the rival of cured leather armour. Thanks to this, few minotaurs see the need for artificial armour - many choosing to go without. Minotaurs' thick hide grants them a +3 armour bonus to their armour class. This is part of their body and cannot be removed, nor does it stack with other armour. It can be enhanced or improved as other armour, and provides no armour check penalty nor maximum dexterity bonus. That also lets you have tattooed minotaurs running around with the Spirits of Flame dancing within them.
Lady Maedhros 01-19-06, 06:42 AM	Ah i see, sort of a warforged thing. :cool: Hmn. That's not bad, and could certianly lead in some interesting directions. But in line with the warforged i think i'll keep it at +2. A racial feat that lets them turn it into "real" natural armor (and therefore stack and help against brilliant energy, et cetera) flows pretty smoothly from that, i'd say. Good stuff. So we'll go with: Tough Hide: Minotaur hair is coarse and their skin is thick and tough, providing some protection against attack. A minotaur’s skin provides him a +2 armor bonus to AC. This is not natural armor and does not stack with other effects that grant an armor bonus. If a minotaur wears a suit of armor or other protective item over his body, he only applies the better of the two bonuses to his armor class. His tough hide does not inflict any armor check penalties or arcane spell failure chance on the minotaur, and it cannot be permanently enhanced by magical means. However, it is subject to improvement from spells that target armor, such as magic vestment and armor enhancement. Also, further consideration leads me to feel the Endurance feat isn't quite what i was looking for. I'm thinking maybe Great Fortitude instead, which gives the added bonus of offering someone other than a meleer a reason to play this race. Thanks for your input, Talen. :cheer: As for the rest of you - i know you're reading this. Come on, no thoughts?
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-19-06, 07:26 AM	Hmmm... massive carrying capacity for lugging killing hardware along, free integral armor if I can't afford to have the real stuff, sleep in armor if I can afford the real stuff, never get lost if I'm paying attention, tough like a dwarf, and able to grab Diehard for one feat? Party, bonus. I think this is just slightly too much for LA +0, though it's an interesting idea. The free Endurance feat is what puts it over for me. You've already got Fort saves and stamina increased via the racial Con mod (admitedly not as much as the feat), but the feat seems to be too much, seeing as it can work as a prerequisite, and is a powerful (if subtle) feat on its own. I'd get rid of Endurance and not replace it with any other feat, but if you really want to increase its stamina beyond what the increased Con does, maybe give it something like: Tireless (Ex): Minotauri do not fatigue as easily as other races, and gain a +2 bonus on checks and saves to resist nonlethal damage from exertion. Just out of curiosity, how do these things hybridize with true minotaurs? Do you end up with a half-breed, or one or the other, or no conception? If you do end up with one or the other, what's the percentage chance for each type?
Talen Lee 01-19-06, 07:28 AM	I'm extremely reluctant to claim any race that can even pretend to have a culture can be 'just savages', so I obviously try and look for ways to make them more interesting. While the 'noble savage' angle is a bit tired and dull in real life, it's a bit easier to imagine if the creature can live off chewing tree bark. Endurance is just a bad feat, which is why I felt it fairly ambivalent to hand it out to any race at start because it does little but let them qualify for PrCs. Seriously.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-19-06, 07:30 AM	Endurance a bad feat? What sort of situations do your characters get into to feel that way?
Lady Maedhros 01-19-06, 09:14 AM	Tireless (Ex): Minotauri do not fatigue as easily as other races, and gain a +2 bonus on checks and saves to resist nonlethal damage from exertion. Yeah, that's a lot closer. It's more the forced march and sleeping in armor that i'm after than the resisting starvation/thirst/hot/cold/suffocation. On a sidenote, i guess Endurance really is one of those campaign-dependant feats. Neither myself nor our other DM usually run games where time is much of the essence, and my dice seem to really love my players, because they've been attacked all of twice in the night in twenty-plus levels over two campaigns. The second time they'd already found a Daern's instant fortress. :ahem: .... anyway. In my experience it's not that exceedingly valuble, especially considering the opportunity cost of spending that feat slot once you have as many splat books around as we do. But either way it's not quite the flavor i'm looking for, so i'm thinking i'll scrap it regardless. And you're right, in that it's too much synergy with an already martially strong race.
Yuri_Zhivago 08-30-06, 08:51 PM	As much as I may like this (it is much better than the Dragonlance minotaurs of old), I can't help be bothered by the Glyph feat. It defies all explanation. How can a creature with no knowledge of the planes know which plane it is on? Even assuming it knows it (without, say, ranks in Knowledge: the Planes), how can it convey that information? It really can't, in either case. It takes a KN: PL check to identify planar location, I believe, and that signifies years of training. Even if the minotaur can identify the plane it has been transported to, it lacks the vocabulary to express the pertinent information. I apologize that I have no suggestions to recraft the feat; I do wish you luck to that end, however.
ReadError 08-31-06, 01:20 PM	Interesting, one could make a pretty good monk with this race.
Viashino_wizard 08-31-06, 02:06 PM	I think it's a little overpowered. Maybe a penalty in Charisma would balance things out a little? ANyways, I'm kind of a stickler, so there's one things bothering me here: Your 'noun' names are all Adjectives. (Insert uncomfortable silence here)
Lady Maedhros 08-31-06, 06:12 PM	Just out of curiosity, how do these things hybridize with true minotaurs? Do you end up with a half-breed, or one or the other, or no conception? If you do end up with one or the other, what's the percentage chance for each type? For simplicity, I had just figured they'd be infertile. I suppose you could have a mule-like crossbreed, but I haven't worked out the rules for it. How can a creature with no knowledge of the planes know which plane it is on? It's not really a "look, we're in Payratheon, a minor city in Minethys, the third layer of the tarterean depths of Carceri" sort of thing. It works the same as it does on the Material plane - like a "hey, Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore" moment where the minotaur looks around and goes "we are several dimensions away from where we started." I guess I should clarify the wording a bit. It doesn't tell him anything about where he is, like what he needs to survive or who's the big demon in the place or even how to get back. He knows the right direction to "walk" to get home, and approximately how "far" away he his from anywhere he recognizes, but that doesn't give him the ability to get back. If he can plane shift the feat obviously becomes a lot more useful. Otherwise, he can say something like "we're in a different world, we're... we're forty degrees away from home? What? That doesn't make sense," and the cleric can go "OH! We're in Ysgard." Thanks for rezzing my thread, btw. :D Your 'noun' names are all Adjectives. *Laughs like a maniac* I know! I'm like, psycho grammar nazi and I actually not only wrote that, but posted it. I noticed it in the file on my PC about a month ago and fixed it, but it completely didn't even occur to me that I'd copy-pasted that particular brain fart to this thread as well. It's better now. Sorry. As for your mechanical note: I can believe that they're a little too strong. They make very, very good fighters. But a Charisma penalty wouldn't balance anything - it would make them a poor choice for bard or sorcerer, but it wouldn't do anything to hurt the melee minotaur, and if there's a balance problem, it's with him.
Viashino_wizard 09-01-06, 02:12 PM	Hmm... What about a natural -1 competence bonus to AC? Something like Big Target(Ex).
Lady Maedhros 09-04-06, 09:35 PM	An AC penalty is sorta counterintuitive, considering one of their major bonuses is the tough hide; might as well just make it a +1 bonus in that case. But something came to me last night - in line with the flavor (they like cities because they're more comfortable surrounded by stone), how's this for an idea? Agoraphobia: Each week that a minotaur does not get at least one good night's sleep within earthen or stone walls, he must make a Will save against DC 15 or suffer a -1 morale penalty on all attacks, skill checks and saving throws. This penalty is not cumulative and is negated by a subsequent successful save or spending a night in an appropriate shelter. I'm not totally convinced it's neccissary, and depending on the campaign, this could be either total meaningless fluff or utterly crippling. But it does strike me as an interesting start.
Yuri_Zhivago 09-05-06, 11:07 AM	It's not really a "look, we're in Payratheon, a minor city in Minethys, the third layer of the tarterean depths of Carceri" sort of thing. It works the same as it does on the Material plane - like a "hey, Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore" moment where the minotaur looks around and goes "we are several dimensions away from where we started." I guess I should clarify the wording a bit. It doesn't tell him anything about where he is, like what he needs to survive or who's the big demon in the place or even how to get back. He knows the right direction to "walk" to get home, and approximately how "far" away he his from anywhere he recognizes, but that doesn't give him the ability to get back. If he can plane shift the feat obviously becomes a lot more useful. Otherwise, he can say something like "we're in a different world, we're... we're forty degrees away from home? What? That doesn't make sense," and the cleric can go "OH! We're in Ysgard." Ok, this makes alot more sense: you're using the Great Wheel, so the minotaur experiences a directional "pull" towards home. That is a much better image than a clericless party with a 'taur getting bounced to Tarterus, and the 'taur saying "We're on Tarterus," and everyone else going, "What does that mean," and he shrugs. No problem on the res, by the way. I'm always the last on to get to the table on the first night. Yuri
aramilcaelvan 01-21-07, 08:38 PM	Very nice. A pair of these guys will be showing up at my next game, for sure.
Disciple_of_Juiblex 01-21-07, 10:26 PM	They seem like a good race as it it currently without the Agoraphobia. My concern is they they make fairly good clerics and sorcerers which seems almost counterintuitive (sp) to me. Also they dont have a favored class yet, but im thinking its probaly fighter or barbarian :P
RoCkEtInToXiCaTe 01-21-07, 10:30 PM	I got away with a Minotaur +0 race, too. But I'm afraid if I bring it back up again they'll make me add an LA.
Lady Maedhros 01-22-07, 02:54 AM	Whoa! Threadmancy! AGAIN! :eek: Very nice. A pair of these guys will be showing up at my next game, for sure. Awesome! I'm glad to be a part of your game, however small. :cool: My concern is they they make fairly good clerics and sorcerers which seems almost counterintuitive (sp) to me. Huh. I hadn't thought about that with the sorcs really, but actually I'm happy you said so because that means I've managed to do a decent job balancing them. A truly balanced race should have some benefit for almost any class, rather than a bunch of benefits for one class (this is why the half-orc is made of sad and fail). And I like that image - some towering, black-furred 'taur with shimmering silver runes branded into his hide, and purple and green arcane energies swirling from his fingertips... :dancin: Wow, that's my next named NPC. Err, anyway. He does have some nice perks for a sorcerer, but since mage armor and tough hide don't stack, and the -2 Dex hurts a sorc more than the +2 Str helps, I don't think it's any better than, say, dwarf is for wizard, in the long run, and you only see the occasional dwarf wizard even with that. The cleric is more of an issue - in fact, you're absolutely right, this race is golden for clerics, to kind of a silly degree once you add Glyph. Also they dont have a favored class yet Oh yeah. I don't use favored classes, they're a hassle and disproportionately harmful to martial characters (and gishes), and I prefer not to shove any character in a particular direction beyond what his modifiers already incline him to. If they had one, though, it'd be barb. Inside every 'taur is a tiny voice reminding him that every now and then it might be cool to flip out and eat some people. :tongue: I got away with a Minotaur +0 race, too. But I'm afraid if I bring it back up again they'll make me add an LA. Hee. They'd probably feature point it. (This'll probably get feature pointed too, now that it's up. Wonder how it pans out?)
Draxo 01-22-07, 04:45 AM	I recall seeing the LA+0 Krynn Minotaur published on the wotc site. If i recall correctly they had: STR+4 Dex-2 INT-2 CHA-2 NA+2 A horn charge and a +2 to profession: Sailor and Intimidate. They were also eligible to take the scent feat.
Thief_of_Hope 02-05-07, 11:21 PM	I love this race. It's a fantastic blend of balance and flavor. I can tell that you put a lot of thought into it. I really like how well they reflect a minotaur while at the same time staying at a +0 LA, which I really appreciate since I'm rarely involved in games that would allow a character as high level as the MM minotaur. I think it's great work and plan to use this minotaur race in the future. Very nice.
Thief_of_Hope 02-15-07, 09:37 PM	Have you considered making Paragon levels for this race? That would be hardcore.
Lady Maedhros 05-23-07, 03:14 AM	Hey, wow, thanks, Thief of Hope! Sorry for not responding for... um, three months. :embarrass I've been away. But I'm glad you like my work and can get some use out of it! I have, in fact, been working on a paragon class, which grants, among other things, the Powerful Build trait. I'll try and post what I've got so far later this week, if you're still around and interested (or even if you're not, probably :D ).
Ogrebear 05-23-07, 09:06 AM	This is a very interesting race. The fluff you have written really does give a good flavour to them. They are more rounded than even the Krynn Minotaur (just based off the Dragonlance campaign book not the expansions). I think the stats as posted are fine, but the changed Thick Hide works well too. The Agoraphobia thing could make for some intersting role playing, esp if the character is barbarian.... won't want a 8' mass of muscle him to miss his beauty sleep now would we.... I am very interested in your Orcs- could you post what you have done to them please.
Warforged Goblin 05-23-07, 09:45 AM	I also am intiruged and impressed with this race. I'm running an Eberron campaign soon and I was going to have a half-minotaur as the quartermaster, but I think I'll use one of these instead.
AMGriffin 05-23-07, 10:00 AM	Not a bad LA+0 Minotaur write up. It's eerily similar to my homebrew orc...
Phantom Lord 05-24-07, 12:33 AM	The current write-up seems to be pretty good.
Thief_of_Hope 05-24-07, 02:55 PM	Hey, wow, thanks, Thief of Hope! Sorry for not responding for... um, three months. :embarrass I've been away. But I'm glad you like my work and can get some use out of it! I have, in fact, been working on a paragon class, which grants, among other things, the Powerful Build trait. I'll try and post what I've got so far later this week, if you're still around and interested (or even if you're not, probably :D ). I'm very much still around and interested. I look forward to seeing more of your work.
ranger_of_renwood 05-24-07, 11:14 PM	I don't see anything about natural weapons or horns under their physical description. Are these hornless minotaurs? -Ranger
vegetalss4 05-25-07, 04:42 PM	i hae a question do you trule mean that thick hide do not stack with anything that grants natural armor? if yes why do it deactivate a magical ring?
Lady Maedhros 05-25-07, 06:51 PM	i hae a question do you trule mean that thick hide do not stack with anything that grants natural armor? Thick hide is armor, not natural armor. If a minotaur put on a chain shirt, that AC wouldn't stack with his Thick Hide AC; if he put on an amulet of natural armor +2, that would stack with his Thick Hide AC. if yes why do it deactivate a magical ring? What? I don't see anything about natural weapons or horns under their physical description. Are these hornless minotaurs? Physical Description: Minotauri are massive, males averaging seven feet and five to six hundred pounds, females only marginally smaller. Their hands are four-fingered and wide, with thick dark nails of the same hard substance that composes their hooves. Females are slightly less broad in the shoulder and lack the long, brown to black horns of the males. Both genders have manes of longer, darker hair on their heads and in tufts at the end of their long, flexible tails. Their bodies are covered in light, stiff hair that ranges in color from tan or gold to a rich russet, with occasional white or black aberrations. Markings are rare, but possible, generally confined to light patches on the forehead or upper arms. Minotauri are fond of heavy clothing and often wear ring or chainmail on a day-to-day basis simply for the weight, though they generally avoid bright colors or loose accoutrements like cloaks and ostentatious jewelry. Males have horns. Females do not. Although actually I've since changed that. I really should go update that top post. Guess I'll do it when I put the paragon class up.
jollythehappyminotaur 05-25-07, 11:45 PM	eh its pertty good for what it is.... but i like the one in the dragon lance campign setting minotaur better. its a nice step away from the sterotypical minotaur. they are a sea bearing race...... but they are also barbaric and strong. kind of viking like if you ask me. it would suck to have your town raided by minotaur vikings. however i have played a few minotaurs in my time (they are one of my fav races) and every time i have used a different minotaur. once i used the one from the MM and went barbarine, another i used the dragon lance minotaur, and one other time i had my DM make one with no L.A very simmilar to yours. nice job!! :D
Lady Maedhros 05-28-07, 06:47 PM	Okay. I did some cosmetic editing on the original post to bring everything up to speed, and added in the paragon class as promised (okay, a few days late). I also threw the age and height/weight tables up in the Crunch section, because the usefulness of those cannot be overstated (although I should mention that the Altenmur year is 244 days, so the ages those tables generate are 1.5x what they'd be in an Oerth setting). Ogerbear, I just discovered I haven't actually done a fluff write-up of my orcs, just a mechanical one. I'll try and get that finished and maybe PM it to you (the boards don't seem to have much love for racial re-writes).
Fake Healer 05-29-07, 04:15 PM	I like what you've done with trying to do a LA +0 minotaur race. I did an LA +1 minotaur race and came up with this. Bovan Minotaurs Medium Monstrous Humanoid +4 strength, -2 wisdom Speed-30ft., cannot run more than 3x their movement rate a round. Medium (6’-7’tall, 250-350 lbs.) Powerful Build- The physical stature of a Bovan Minotaur lets her function in many ways as if she were one size category larger. Whenever a Bovan Minotaur is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Bovan Minotaur is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to her. A Bovan Minotaur is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Bovan Minotaur can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, her space and reach remain those of a creature of her actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. +2 racial modifier to skill checks involving stone. Bovan are extremely well-versed in stone working. +2 racial modifier to craft checks involving wood. Bovan are expert wood workers and have an affinity for making, and appraising items made of wood. Instinctual charge- Bovan do not suffer an armor class penalty, due to charging, from the target of the charge. They do however incur the typical armor class penalties from other opponents. Weapon proficiency- Great axe, Battle axe and Hand axe. All Bovan are trained, from a calf, in the use of certain axes. Secondary natural weapon- Gore (1d6+ .5 strength bonus) at -5 attack modifier. Bovan minotaurs find it distasteful to use their horns in such a manner. Automatic languages- Common, Giant. Bonus languages- Dwarven, Gnomish, Terran, Elvish, and Draconic. Favored class- Fighter Level Adjustment- +1 I thought they should stay bigger than medium creatures but wanted them to be playable as a race. Just giving a different take on the subject, maybe you can use some ideas. FH
RobbyPants 05-29-07, 04:33 PM	This is actually pretty nice. I was afraid I was going to find some (supposedly) LA +0 race that's large with reach, and a whole slew of "balancing" penalties. What a nice surprise! :P I like that the AC bonus is armor and not natural. That prevents a lot of abuse. The natural AC feat is actually quite clever. It's a nice way to "buy-off" about half a level adjustment. Also, in the prereqs, does it have to be taken at 1st level? The charging feat is nice too. Good for flavor and crunch. I was surprised to find a 5-level paragon. I was thinking it should be 3 levels, but it seems you've put a good amount of minotaur-appropriate stuff in there. All-in-all, I really like this race. Nice balance and fluff. :D
Thief_of_Hope 05-29-07, 08:17 PM	I really like the paragon class. It's really cool, and everything really fits with the race. Very nice work. Oh, and Fake Healer, I like your minotaur write-up as well. There's just one thing I had a question about: Speed-30ft., cannot run more than 3x their movement rate a round. I see that this is 3x instead of 4x like the run action or whatever would normally allow, but would this work better if you could increase it to 4x with the Run feat? As it is worded now, I might take the Run feat for a prerequisite or something, and gain 100% no benefit from it. Just thought that it might still retain the flavor but be just that little bit better if they simply had 3x be their base run speed instead of 4x, without saying that they can never increase that speed in any way. But I really like your minotaur! Augh! So many cool minotuars!
Lady Maedhros 05-30-07, 01:33 PM	This is actually pretty nice. I was afraid I was going to find some (supposedly) LA +0 race that's large with reach, and a whole slew of "balancing" penalties. What a nice surprise! :P[quote] Thanks! Heh. I've seen first-hand the unplayability of half-dragons and how massive imbalance can hurt the party, so I strive ever for true balance. :tongue: [quote]I like that the AC bonus is armor and not natural. That prevents a lot of abuse. The natural AC feat is actually quite clever. It's a nice way to "buy-off" about half a level adjustment. Also, in the prereqs, does it have to be taken at 1st level? Thank you, although really Talen deserves most of the credit for that. The feat is indeed a 1st-level only thing; I should probably clarify that ("Special: This feat can only be taken at 1st level" rather than as a prereq is how it's usually done, I think?). The charging feat is nice too. Good for flavor and crunch. I'm glad you think so. Fake Healer's penalty-less charge interests me as well, perhaps I shall find a way to work that into my game. :plotting: I was surprised to find a 5-level paragon. I was thinking it should be 3 levels, but it seems you've put a good amount of minotaur-appropriate stuff in there. Yeah, I think of paragon classes as more an opportunity to do a playable savage progression than as normal classes. For humanoids with only one hit die, a three-level class makes sense, but there's enough going on with the wild minotaur that I wanted to get to that it seemed appropriate to stretch the class out. I really like the paragon class. It's really cool, and everything really fits with the race. Very nice work. Thanks! I'm glad you like it. :king:
FriendlyBiscuit 07-15-07, 03:08 PM	:bump :awesome