| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Rechan09-16-07, 12:12 AM | Okay, here's the situation. I have someone joining my group that is not very experienced with 3.x. I said I was running a game, they're a good friend of mine, and said "Okay, sure, I'll play a sorcerer." But because of their unfamiliarity with the rules (and professing to being terrible at making characters), the player said "Would you write up the character sheet for me? I trust you." I agreed. It's not a wholly unfair request, and I among other things, I need this person to play. However. When I said "What race?", the first response was "Tiefling or dark elf." This individual is an old planescape fan, and with the lack of experience with 3.x, likely doesn't realize that various races have Level Adjustments. And because this player is playing a Sorcerer, I 1) Don't want to hit them in the spellcasting levels department, and 2) Don't want to hit them in the Charisma department due to being a Sorcerer. So I decided to just make a LA +0 Race and call it a tiefling. Any suggestions on how? I'm thinking of just cutting it down to a +2 Dex/-2 Wis (or +2 Dex/-2 Int/+2 Cha), taking out one or two of the Energy Resistance 5s, and calling it a day. |
| Polaris09-16-07, 12:24 AM | Rechan, Take the standard Tiefling and remove the Int bonus and change the racial type from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid, and you're golden. IMHO, keep the Cha penalty. If we wants to be a Tiefling and a sorcerer, then too damn bad. However, if you MUST drop the Cha penalty, I'd replace it with a Wis penalty....but see above on my thoughts about that! In no case should you give out mental attribute bonuses with an LA+0 race of your own construction nor should you ever give out unbalanced positive attributes (i.e. more +2s than -2s) at LA+0 and especially not with a race of your own design. -Polaris |
| MareltEkiran09-16-07, 12:39 AM | Quite frankly, I never understood why on earth Tieflings have Charisma penalties when they descend from some of the most charismatic creatures in the Multiverse. I don't really see how having a Succubus as Grandma would cause you to be more shy than Joe Average. That being said, I'd personally find Wisdom more appropriate. Fiends are not known for trying to understand those that they consider cattle or a world which they consider ground-to-be-remoulded, which may translate into a lower Wisdom (seeing as Wisdom is described as how much "in tune" you are with the world around you). So go by something like: humanoid (planetouched) +2 DEX, -2 WIS Fire Resistance 5 +2 Bluff, +2 Hide Darkvision ...which I'd say is on par with any of the other races out there. |
| Twocan09-16-07, 01:04 AM | Make her a crazy! she just 'thinks' shes a tiefling! oh the role playing potential. Or, When you get right, right, right down to it, Tieflings have fiendish blood in them right? But that really is kinda like saying 'my favorite flavor of ice cream is ice cream'. Its a far too broad statement to make a whole lot of sense. If you felt up to it, you could make a few variations of the tiefling race, to represent different bloodlines from different outsiders. A bloodline from a succubus will be a lot, lot different then a bloodline from a balor, right down to different racial abilities. In the case of being part succubus, I'd definately give them a bonus to charisma somewhere in there, and Id replace the darkness spell with a 'charm humanoid', (caster level equal to hit dice ). Just a vague thought : ) (edit because I was make grammar bad with my fingers when they make letterwords ;3; ) |
| Kadasbrass09-16-07, 11:36 AM | Quite frankly, I never understood why on earth Tieflings have Charisma penalties when they descend from some of the most charismatic creatures in the Multiverse. I don't really see how having a Succubus as Grandma would cause you to be more shy than Joe Average. That being said, I'd personally find Wisdom more appropriate. Fiends are not known for trying to understand those that they consider cattle or a world which they consider ground-to-be-remoulded, which may translate into a lower Wisdom (seeing as Wisdom is described as how much "in tune" you are with the world around you). So go by something like: humanoid (planetouched) +2 DEX, -2 WIS Fire Resistance 5 +2 Bluff, +2 Hide Darkvision ...which I'd say is on par with any of the other races out there. I agree that the -2 cha with tieflings makes no sense. Just another WotC policy that all evil/deformed races have a charisma penalty... thou fiends, dragons, and mind flayers say otherwise :rolleyes: Personally I believe the -2 wis makes better sense to reflect a bit of dementia/corruption that migth appear in tieflings. |
| Spikes01k09-16-07, 12:05 PM | I am surprised some one didn't bring this up before. There is the lesser tiefling. Which is just like a fiefling except it's type and type effects are diffrent and is a LA +0 race. |
| zook1shoe66609-16-07, 12:11 PM | I am surprised some one didn't bring this up before. There is the lesser tiefling. Which is just like a fiefling except it's type and type effects are diffrent and is a LA +0 race. they seem to be making a more balanced one. |
| Rustmonster09-16-07, 12:12 PM | I am surprised some one didn't bring this up before. There is the lesser tiefling. Which is just like a fiefling except it's type and type effects are diffrent and is a LA +0 race. Oh, I want's to hear about those. Where are they from and what's the difference between them and vanilla Teifling? |
| zook1shoe66609-16-07, 12:28 PM | Oh, I want's to hear about those. Where are they from and what's the difference between them and vanilla Teifling? Spikes just told you.... they change the type and LA. |
| Elentar09-16-07, 12:35 PM | I think it's from the Players Guide to Faerun. And I agree with the above statements that the Charisma penalty makes no sense. Concerning the Inplay RP thing, it's just the same. Only the Rule change a little bit, still worth it for a Caster I'd say.^^ |
| Stardust09-16-07, 12:37 PM | Not to derail the thread or anything, but after solving this little race issue, you should seriously consider walking the player through the character creation process, having them make decisions with your guidance so that they begin to learn something about the ruleset. Just seems to me like writing them up a sheet isn't going to help them in the slightest and more than likely will give them a character they'll want to keep altering because it's not just how they want. Anyways, I shan't sidetrack the discussion any further. |
| Polaris09-16-07, 01:04 PM | I am surprised some one didn't bring this up before. There is the lesser tiefling. Which is just like a fiefling except it's type and type effects are diffrent and is a LA +0 race. No one has mentioned it because it's completely and ridiculously overpowered for an LA+0 race. Don't use it. -Polaris |
| Karish09-16-07, 01:11 PM | In my games I just take away the resistances for LA+0. |
| Polaris09-16-07, 01:16 PM | In my games I just take away the resistances for LA+0. I don't think that's enough. In fact I don't think that comes close to being enough. The Outsider type alone gives the Tiefling access to all martial weapons AND immunity from many low level "kill" spells like sleep and hold person. That's almost enough for an LA right there. In addition, Tieflings have unbalanced high stats and one of those is a mental stat which is really bad to have at a bonus at LA+0. Honestly the energy resistances are the least of what makes a Tiefling LA+1. -Polaris |
| Kn1ves09-16-07, 01:27 PM | Why not just let them play a standard Tiefling. It's only a +1 adjustment and that's easily fixed with the buy off rules or just making them wait one extra level to get to two and then proceding as normal from there. |
| Rechan09-16-07, 05:35 PM | Why not just let them play a standard Tiefling. It's only a +1 adjustment and that's easily fixed with the buy off rules or just making them wait one extra level to get to two and then proceding as normal from there. Because the party is going to need boom spells, simply put. I think a sorcerer is a terrible choice, but a +1 LA + Sorcerer in a combat heavy campaign with no other mage = murder. |
| Witch09-16-07, 05:44 PM | In no case should you give out mental attribute bonuses with an LA+0 race of your own construction nor should you ever give out unbalanced positive attributes (i.e. more +2s than -2s) at LA+0 and especially not with a race of your own design. -Polaris I've always found this opinion relatively unsupportable. Why not? "It makes spellcasters better than without the bonuses" - well, that's about the idea, isn't it? Halfling rogues are better than troll rogues, too. |
| Skritz_the_Lizardmen09-16-07, 05:51 PM | Quite frankly, I never understood why on earth Tieflings have Charisma penalties when they descend from some of the most charismatic creatures in the Multiverse. I don't really see how having a Succubus as Grandma would cause you to be more shy than Joe Average. That being said, I'd personally find Wisdom more appropriate. Fiends are not known for trying to understand those that they consider cattle or a world which they consider ground-to-be-remoulded, which may translate into a lower Wisdom (seeing as Wisdom is described as how much "in tune" you are with the world around you). So go by something like: humanoid (planetouched) +2 DEX, -2 WIS Fire Resistance 5 +2 Bluff, +2 Hide Darkvision ...which I'd say is on par with any of the other races out there. Most Tiefling descend from Succubus, who happen to be some of the sexiest entity of D&D. I don't get it either. |
| KocaKoala09-16-07, 06:41 PM | Do Tiefling get wings normally, or must they take feats to get wings? What's a good adjustment for a Tiefling starting with wings it can use? Sorry for borrowing this thread ^^ |
| Rechan09-16-07, 07:46 PM | Do Tiefling get wings normally, or must they take feats to get wings? What's a good adjustment for a Tiefling starting with wings it can use? Sorry for borrowing this thread ^^ Tiefs don't get wings; half fiends do. Wings is a +1 LA by itself. |
| Omega_Grey09-16-07, 07:58 PM | There is a feat called outsider wings that you can take as a Tiefling to gain a pair of wings. I know for a fact that it is in the Races of Faerun, but it is probably reprinted in another book as well. |
| Archangel_Tyrael09-16-07, 08:48 PM | There is already an official Wizards response to this Go here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) Or, if you're lazy... Non-level adjusted Tieflings lose: Int +2 darkness Resistances |
| Rustmonster09-16-07, 08:52 PM | There is already an official Wizards response to this Go here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) Ya, these are good, but they forgot to mention if you get HD. Or maybe you are supposed to just go on the HP you get from Con?:P |
| Rustmonster09-16-07, 08:55 PM | Or, if you're lazy... Non-level adjusted Tieflings lose: Int +2 darkness Resistances Oh, I see what you are getting at now. Actually, they have the resistances, but they are only 2 for each. And they have "Lesser Darkness". How lame. |
| Archangel_Tyrael09-16-07, 08:56 PM | Oh, I see what you are getting at now. Actually, they have the resistances, but they are only 2 for each. And they have "Lesser Darkness". How lame. Pretty much. It really depends what you want out of the race. Some people like the flavor, some people like the bonuses (and some people hate level adjustment :D) |
| Arkeas09-16-07, 11:20 PM | Back to the -2 charisma. I think it is mostly because of the "Oh, look, the part demon is trying to talk to/pursuade/be diplomatic with us. Let's ignore/distrust/kill her." I am pretty sure it is just because it is assumed that tieflings are mostly going to be in human environments while succubuses are mostly going to be in demon environments. Go natural social biases! |
| Polaris09-16-07, 11:21 PM | I've always found this opinion relatively unsupportable. Why not? "It makes spellcasters better than without the bonuses" - well, that's about the idea, isn't it? Halfling rogues are better than troll rogues, too. Actually that isn't the entire issue. The big issue is this: Tieflings get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha which is absolutely verboten for a LA+0 race because you have more racial stat bonuses than minuses. Also about spellcasters what you (and others) refuse to see is that an Int based (or any mental attribute based) primary caster only depends on that stat and gets far more out of a +2 to that stat, then other classes get from +2 to other stats. That's why. -Polaris |
| MareltEkiran09-17-07, 01:49 AM | Back to the -2 charisma. I think it is mostly because of the "Oh, look, the part demon is trying to talk to/pursuade/be diplomatic with us. Let's ignore/distrust/kill her." I am pretty sure it is just because it is assumed that tieflings are mostly going to be in human environments while succubuses are mostly going to be in demon environments. Go natural social biases! The problem is that this would be reflected in circumstance bonusses/penalties on the appropriate checks. Charisma is a measure of the creature itself. If it weren't, then the racial bonus of the Aasimar would suddenly change to +2 WIS, -2 CHA, the moment she sets foot in an evil-aligned nation. |
| zeratulcraft09-17-07, 02:10 AM | If it were a social thing, it'd be a penalty against creatures that have an issue with the creature type, which is better considered to be a circumstance penalty anyway. |
| zook1shoe66609-17-07, 09:56 AM | The problem is that this would be reflected in circumstance bonusses/penalties on the appropriate checks. Charisma is a measure of the creature itself. If it weren't, then the racial bonus of the Aasimar would suddenly change to +2 WIS, -2 CHA, the moment she sets foot in an evil-aligned nation. agreed |
| YabaTheWhat09-17-07, 11:19 AM | I agree with a lot of what has been said so far. Lesser planetouched are poorly conceived and consistently overpowered. For a balanced LA+0 tiefling, try this: Tiefling Racial Traits ¤ Medium Humanoid (planetouched) ¤ Abilities: Dex +2, Wis -2 ¤ Medium size, 30 ft move ¤ Darkvision ¤ Resistances: Fire 5, Cold 3, Electricity 3 ¤ Skills: Bluff +2, Hide +2, Disguise -4 ¤ Favored Class: Rogue They may spend their first-level feat to gain any one of the following: ¤ Darkness 1/day as a spell-like ability ¤ Minor Wings: feather fall & glide (30/avg, drop 5/15); useable while able to take free/swift actions ¤ Prehensile Tail: strength 1, cannot wield weapons or shields ¤ Ram Horns: 1d4 damage, 1d8 damage on a charge attack And definitely sit down with her to make the character. Not only will she learn the process, she'll get to tell you what sort of character she has in mind. Find out the character's personality, so you can help her prepare skills & spells. The last thing you want is a pacifist with all blasting spells. |
| Witch09-17-07, 11:49 AM | Actually that isn't the entire issue. The big issue is this: Tieflings get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha which is absolutely verboten for a LA+0 race because you have more racial stat bonuses than minuses. Why is that a problem? Also about spellcasters what you (and others) refuse to see is that an Int based (or any mental attribute based) primary caster only depends on that stat and gets far more out of a +2 to that stat, then other classes get from +2 to other stats. That's why. I'm sure the Rogue doesn't get just as much from his Dex bonus than the Archivist gets from an Int bonus. Or a Sorcerer from a Charisma bonus. Right. That is absolutely incorrect. A Rogue gets roughly the same amount of bonuses from a +2 to Dex than these. But ofcourse, I also contest that it is bad that some class gets more out of a racial bonus than another. A +2 to Dex helps a rogue more than it helps a fighter in full plate. A +2 to Strength helps a barbarian more than a wizard. That's not a bad thing. A +2 to Strength helping a barbarian less than a +2 to Int helping a wizard is not a problem. Racial balancing does not solely depend on the total ability score changes equalling zero. A race that has +2 Cha/+2 Dex could be perfectly viable as a LA +0, provided the other racial abilities are very minor. |
| Kadasbrass09-17-07, 12:28 PM | Why is that a problem? I'm sure the Rogue doesn't get just as much from his Dex bonus than the Archivist gets from an Int bonus. Or a Sorcerer from a Charisma bonus. Right. That is absolutely incorrect. A Rogue gets roughly the same amount of bonuses from a +2 to Dex than these. But ofcourse, I also contest that it is bad that some class gets more out of a racial bonus than another. A +2 to Dex helps a rogue more than it helps a fighter in full plate. A +2 to Strength helps a barbarian more than a wizard. That's not a bad thing. A +2 to Strength helping a barbarian less than a +2 to Int helping a wizard is not a problem. Racial balancing does not solely depend on the total ability score changes equalling zero. A race that has +2 Cha/+2 Dex could be perfectly viable as a LA +0, provided the other racial abilities are very minor. The reason it is unbalanced is because for the most races out there have lousy racial traits and that the only thing worth considering is their ability score bonus. A decent racial trait is just icing on the cake. That is how most players look at it. Wizards don't play elf for their bonus weapons and ability to find secret doors. They play Gray Elf for the +2 int bonus. Fighters don't play dwarfs for their +4 ac against giants, they play dwarfs for the +2 con which is counter weight by a -2 cha that they will never use. Also mental score bonus in the long run give an greater bonus at the higher levels in terms of what the player can get from it. At level one, a +2 int may give a player a 2nd bonus lvl-1 spell, but later on that +2 int will be providing a bonus lvl-5 or higher spell. In which case you have to compare that ability score bonus to what a player could get from that extra spell. That could be an extra Dominate Person, Cone of Cold, Stoneskin, and so forth. That and a +1 dc bonus to spells, which is equal to a 8 spell focus feats in a way. The problem isn't that the ability scores are unbalanced by themselves, but because relative to how other races are designed that their unbalanced. Most races have a bonus, a penalty, and a bunch of useless racial traits. But two bonus for ability scores is far from useless and their racial traits for planetouched aren't that bad either (energy based damage reduction). |
| Spikes01k09-17-07, 05:15 PM | they seem to be making a more balanced one. Then I suggest creating a racial progression similar to the dragonborn abilities. Grant a +1 int and +1 resistance and one of their abilities/day at 3 hit die, and the remaining at 6 hit die. But do use the lesser tiefling. Lesser Tieflings As Characters Tiefling characters possess the following racial traits. * +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma. * Medium size. * A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 30 feet. * Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks. * Racial Feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels. * Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc. * Favored Class: Rogue. At 3 hit die a tiefling is granted a number of its abilities. They recive and increase of +1 Intelligence, Darkvision out to 60 feet, and energy resistance of +2 to cold, electricity, and fire. At 6 hit die a tiefling is granted +1 Intelligence, for a total of +2, Darkness 1/day (caster level equal to class levels), and energy resistance of +5 to cold, electricity, and fire. |
| Rustmonster09-17-07, 05:47 PM | I agree with a lot of what has been said so far. Lesser planetouched are poorly conceived and consistently overpowered. For a balanced LA+0 tiefling, try this: Tiefling Racial Traits ¤ Medium Humanoid (planetouched) ¤ Abilities: Dex +2, Wis -2 ¤ Medium size, 30 ft move ¤ Darkvision ¤ Resistances: Fire 5, Cold 3, Electricity 3 ¤ Skills: Bluff +2, Hide +2, Disguise -4 ¤ Favored Class: Rogue They may spend their first-level feat to gain any one of the following: ¤ Darkness 1/day as a spell-like ability ¤ Minor Wings: feather fall & glide (30/avg, drop 5/15); useable while able to take free/swift actions ¤ Prehensile Tail: strength 1, cannot wield weapons or shields ¤ Ram Horns: 1d4 damage, 1d8 damage on a charge attack And definitely sit down with her to make the character. Not only will she learn the process, she'll get to tell you what sort of character she has in mind. Find out the character's personality, so you can help her prepare skills & spells. The last thing you want is a pacifist with all blasting spells. I kinda like this, although I still like the idea put forth by Archangel on the last page more. It gives you a free awful version of darkness! Also, why are the resistances uneven? They should probably all be the same number, like maybe all 3. |
| YabaTheWhat09-18-07, 08:17 AM | I kinda like this, although I still like the idea put forth by Archangel on the last page more. It gives you a free awful version of darkness! Also, why are the resistances uneven? They should probably all be the same number, like maybe all 3.Darkness in a 5 ft square still grants total concealment. It also causes all the problems of blindness that the full version of Darkness causes. While this may or may not be balanced, it makes more sense just to remove the ability, as it isn't needed for the flavor of the race. Regarding the fire resistance being higher than the other two, I did it mainly because fire has more of a demonic association than the other elements. It might be better to set all three of the resistances to 1/2 HD (minimum 1), as this would start them off weak but keep them worthwhile at higher levels. Making this change would leave them a bit weak on their basic racial traits, but they should still be worthwhile thanks to the first-level feat options. |
| Rechan09-19-07, 08:43 PM | There is already an official Wizards response to this Go here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) Or, if you're lazy... Non-level adjusted Tieflings lose: Int +2 darkness Resistances I don't find either of those options acceptable. I am trying to not gimp this player for wanting to play a tiefling sorcerer because they know jack about LA and we need a boom caster. I'm just going to go with a straight +2 Dex -2 Wis +2 Cha, Type: Humanoid, Fire Resistance 5, Darkness. Clean and simple. |
| Archangel_Tyrael09-19-07, 08:48 PM | I don't find either of those options acceptable. I am trying to not gimp this player for wanting to play a tiefling sorcerer because they know jack about LA and we need a boom caster. I'm just going to go with a straight +2 Dex -2 Wis +2 Cha, Type: Humanoid, Fire Resistance 5, Darkness. Clean and simple. You don't "lose" them... I typed a bit too rashly. They get downgraded in order to be balanced. If you go to the link, they explain a bunch of LA races there. |
| Sunblast09-19-07, 08:58 PM | The Tiefling A tiefling is a fun choice for players who want a humanlike character with a touch of evil or a mysterious background. This racial class offers a set of base racial abilities plus one racial level. Tiefling Base Racial Features All of the following are base racial abilities for the tiefling. Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma. Outsider Type: Tieflings are native outsiders, so they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, a tiefling would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids. Size: Tieflings are Medium size. Speed: Tiefling base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision (Ex): A tiefling has darkvision to a 60-foot range. Lesser Darkness (Sp): Once per day, the tiefling may use an effect similar to darkness (caster level equals tiefling's character level), except that the radius is 5 feet. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. Skill Bonuses: A tiefling has a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks. Resistances (Ex): A tiefling starts play with resistance 2 to cold, electricity, and fire. Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc. Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass tiefling's rogue class does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies. I got it from here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a |
| Rustmonster09-19-07, 09:02 PM | I don't find either of those options acceptable. I am trying to not gimp this player for wanting to play a tiefling sorcerer because they know jack about LA and we need a boom caster. I'm just going to go with a straight +2 Dex -2 Wis +2 Cha, Type: Humanoid, Fire Resistance 5, Darkness. Clean and simple. The LA 0 Teifling in the article has: Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma. Outsider Type: Tieflings are native outsiders, so they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, a tiefling would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids. Size: Tieflings are Medium size. Speed: Tiefling base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision (Ex): A tiefling has darkvision to a 60-foot range. Lesser Darkness (Sp): Once per day, the tiefling may use an effect similar to darkness (caster level equals tiefling's character level), except that the radius is 5 feet. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. Skill Bonuses: A tiefling has a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks. Resistances (Ex): A tiefling starts play with resistance 2 to cold, electricity, and fire. Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc. Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass tiefling's rogue class does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies. These, IMHO, are actually really great. It's perfect for LA 0. It's not "gimping" them. Those are great abilites. It seems alot of people like giving them extra fire resistance, but that really makes no sense, as their patrons are immune to cold, electricity AND fire. Fire isn't more important than the others. |
| Rechan09-19-07, 09:10 PM | I see the discrepancy. Even so, looking at here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), the Aasmir as a 0 LA race still gets a +2 to Charisma, a casting stat. I'd rather give the Tief that than the -2 to Charisma, for the whole "Born of a manipulative demon which seduces mortals". I finally went with just +2 dex -2 Wis. |
| Polaris09-20-07, 01:14 AM | I don't find either of those options acceptable. I am trying to not gimp this player for wanting to play a tiefling sorcerer because they know jack about LA and we need a boom caster. I'm just going to go with a straight +2 Dex -2 Wis +2 Cha, Type: Humanoid, Fire Resistance 5, Darkness. Clean and simple. ...and it's grossly overpowered. You are rewarding a player for whining. It's your campaign, but you are giving a LA+1 race at an LA+0 cost. If I were a fellow player, I'd be seriously annoyed with you doing that as the GM. I see the discrepancy. Even so, looking at here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), the Aasmir as a 0 LA race still gets a +2 to Charisma, a casting stat. I'd rather give the Tief that than the -2 to Charisma, for the whole "Born of a manipulative demon which seduces mortals". I finally went with just +2 dex -2 Wis. WOTC can't find their posterior with two hands with a roadmap when it comes to making balanced racial progression levels. The LA+0 Aasimar is grossly overpowered. -Polaris |
| Kadasbrass09-20-07, 10:20 AM | WOTC can't find their posterior with two hands with a roadmap when it comes to making balanced racial progression levels. The LA+0 Aasimar is grossly overpowered. -Polaris They need to be able to find the roadmap first :D |
| Ogg09-20-07, 11:09 AM | Yeah, we trying out a couple of the Races of Faerun "lesser" races. My wifes trying out a Lesser Tiefling Dragonborn of Bahamut (+2 WIS +2 CHA -2 DEX +2 CON but she losses all her resistances & light abilities, etc in place of Dragonborn ones) & I'm playing a Lesser Tiefling. Trying to see how the +2Int, +2 dex -2 cha + all your Tiefling perks plays out against for instance playing a gray elf (+2 int +2 dex -2 str -2 con with all the elf grooviness) I mean 5 resistance is dandy & great at low levels but honestly once you get higher levels it's not so much (Ok you get hit by a 36 point fireball, bounce 5). Don't get me wrong, a lesser tiefling verses a half-orc or half-elf. Yeah the tiefling way outdoes it but compared to an elf? Not so much. Plus at higher levels you're vulnerable to everything that affects a humanoid plus everything that affects on outsider. So yeah hold person works on you & so do bane Outsider arrows. Not stuff that will likely affect you every game but a smart villian could have lots of fun with you. My wife has the joy of also being vulnerable to everything that affects dragons too. Weee! Is it all balanced, probably not. Is it fun. Sure! Sometimes you play a lesser tiefling, sometimes you play a halfling. I've had just as much fun with either :P |
| Wih09-27-07, 12:24 AM | The reason the lesser planetouched are balanced (theoretically) is because they're Humanoids with the Planetouched subtype. This means they dont get the bonuses from the Outsider type, but they're still weak to everything that an Outsider is weak to - holy water, ranger favoured enemy of Outsider of your alignment etc. |
| Kurama Youko09-27-07, 09:44 AM | I don't think that's enough. In fact I don't think that comes close to being enough. The Outsider type alone gives the Tiefling access to all martial weapons LA+1. -Polaris misconception number 108 a tiefling nor a aasirmar gain all weapon proficieny from just having the outsider type. A outsider needs to have atleast 2 racial hit dice before it gains that extra benefit, this was covered in a old FAQ or some such. It was however explained away as you traded away your outsider proficienes at first level when you took your first class level. Just like you don't gain the outsider hit points, skill calculation or saves when you take your first lv in a class when you play a race who doesn't have any more than one racial hit dice. |
| Kurama Youko09-27-07, 09:48 AM | the simplist solution to me is to take the LA and change it into a racial hit dice. if you and spread out the benefits of the tiefling over those two levels. If you wish to rule that since he now has 2 racial hit dice he gains all weapon prof (like normal outsiders do.) then thats cool. He's still two levels behind in being a sorcerer. If you wanna bump up the normal ruling that outsiders need to have 2 racial hit dice or more to 3 racial hit dice or more before they gain that extra benefit then thats cool to. Personally. changing LA's to extra racial hit dice seems like the easiest thing to do, because you don't get stuck with the (im striping away what makes the race in and of itself itself.) |
| Polaris09-27-07, 12:14 PM | misconception number 108 a tiefling nor a aasirmar gain all weapon proficieny from just having the outsider type. A outsider needs to have atleast 2 racial hit dice before it gains that extra benefit, this was covered in a old FAQ or some such. It was however explained away as you traded away your outsider proficienes at first level when you took your first class level. Just like you don't gain the outsider hit points, skill calculation or saves when you take your first lv in a class when you play a race who doesn't have any more than one racial hit dice. You are absolutely, positively, wrong. 1. The Old FAQ no longer applies to 3.5. 2. This question has already been asked and answered by WOTC and the current Sage. Yes, both Aasimar and Tieflings do get the weapon proficiency for being an outsider. 3. All characters gain the basic abilities for their type and subtype as listed in the monster manual unless their specific racial write-up states otherwise. This is why the Elan has to be specifically denied Darkvision because otherwise they would have automatically got it as an Abberation type. 4. On page 313 of the Monster Manual, it explicitly states that ALL outsiders get the simple and martial weapon proficiency in addition to listed weapons as a type feature (not as a function of outsider hit-dice) and the native subtype does not take this away. Ergo, Aasimar and Tieflings get martial weapons for free. 5. All the above has been confirmed through WOTC. Read and check the rules before you correct what I said next time. -Polaris |
| Kurama Youko09-27-07, 03:53 PM | and im telling you it wasn't in the 3.0 and since i know i saw the ruling that Aasimar and specific Tiefling don't gain weapon proficeny's i'll ask you to provide a official sage ruling to back up your claim.. how can I back up mine? Just at any entry that has aasimar and tiefling as a race, both the monster manual and the planar handbook, notice under outsider traits neither of those mention anything about said races gaining weapon proficenys yet mention every other outsider trait that is usually accustome to outsiders are mentioned.. so again, im telling you you don't get them.. now you can let it die or back it up. |
| Kurama Youko09-27-07, 04:02 PM | another little thing i'd like to point out.. Take a look at the uneartned arcana specifically Tiefling Paragon, pay special attention to Weapon and Armor Proficiency.. See where they are specifically giving you simple weapon and light armor proficiency. If what you said were true and basing simply on what is under the Elf Paragon listing you'd expect that Tieflings would have simple and martial weapon proficiencys, alas thats not the case, they only have simple listed. Looking at the Elves the mention simple as well as the weapons elves are normally proficient with and light armor. |
| Kurama Youko09-27-07, 04:24 PM | and to furthere this issue. Look at any other racial class progression found in the Planar Handbook such as the hound archon or chain devil.. You will see that they specifically mention that these types of outsiders automatically gain all simple and martial weapon proficenys... I know all to well what the outsider type says, and I know exactly what they are applying it to when they say it but planetouched creatures are not the ones that are talking about when they mention it. Baby Tieflings do not come out wielding or knowing how to wield greatswords and long spears. A Hound Archon is created by his deity or the forces of good with knowledge of what it needs to know. |
| Polaris09-27-07, 04:40 PM | I'm telling you flat out that you are wrong. Since you ask, I will get an official WOTC reply that confirms it. 1. The 3.0 FAQ does NOT apply to 3.5. That has been the case for some time now. 2. Just because the listings specify that these types of Outsiders get simple and martial weapons only makes that information redundant. 3. All Outsiders are in fact born with the knowledge of how to use martial weapons. It's part of the type (just like all Outsiders are born with Darkvision). -Polaris |
| Polaris09-28-07, 02:09 AM | Kurama, Since you asked, here is WOTC's official position in black-and-white. Hopefully this will end the issue. Native Outsiders and Martial Weapons Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 09/27/2007 04:11 PM [Personal Info Deleted], Thank you for writing. The subtype entry on page 313 states that Outsiders are granted these weapon proficiencies. If the race you choose has the native outsider subtype, they will gain these proficiencies. Please let me know if you need anymore help! Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. [Link Deleted] To login to your account, or update your question please [Personal Info Deleted]. Rob Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer ([personal info deleted]) 09/27/2007 01:51 PM Dear WOTC, It is my understanding that Tieflings and Aasimar automatically gain the martial weapon proficiency by virtue of being native outsiders. That is because on page 303 under the "Outsider" type in the Monster Manual, all outsiders are explicitly given this ability, and nothing in either the native sub-type entry nor the specific monster entries say that they do not. Others vehemently disagree. Who's right, rules as written, and why. Sincerely, [personal info deleted] ******************** Page Number: 313 Book Name: Monster Manual Pretty cut-and-dried. You are wrong. -Polaris |
| Kadasbrass09-28-07, 09:50 AM | Kurama, Since you asked, here is WOTC's official position in black-and-white. Hopefully this will end the issue. Pretty cut-and-dried. You are wrong. -Polaris Its not. Some of the Designers disagree with Customer Support. I hate to contradict an answer you got from our Customer Service folks, but I'm with Eytan on this one. If you're an aasimar or tiefling, your class choice dictates your weapon proficiency. It's just like being a human--even though you have the humanoid type, your class overrides the default humanoid proficiencies. I know the outsider type description doesn't say that explicitly (unlike the humanoid type description), but that is certainly the intent. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9996856&postcount=2168 |
| RobbyPants09-28-07, 10:07 AM | Quite frankly, I never understood why on earth Tieflings have Charisma penalties when they descend from some of the most charismatic creatures in the Multiverse. I don't really see how having a Succubus as Grandma would cause you to be more shy than Joe Average. I agree that the -2 cha with tieflings makes no sense. Just another WotC policy that all evil/deformed races have a charisma penalty... thou fiends, dragons, and mind flayers say otherwise :rolleyes: In my current game, I've modified some of the races to either "balance" them, or reflavor them for my world. One of the changes I made was to flat out remove the -2 Cha entirely, and leave the rest as-is. I supposed I could see some explanation that their Cha is penalized because they're odd and abbarant, but they lack the power and awe of full-blooded fiends, but still, that arguement never sat well with me. That logic makes it seem like your overall power level is more important than your Cha for determining "awe" anyway. I'd be more intimidated by a 20th level character with a low Cha and no ranks in Intimidate than a 1st level mook with maxed Cha, Intimidate, and Skill Focus (Intimidate). I just don't see how WotC arbitrairly assigns Cha bonuses and penalites to races. |
| Polaris09-28-07, 12:12 PM | Its not. Some of the Designers disagree with Customer Support. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9996856&postcount=2168 Yes it is. I am well aware that Chris Baker disagrees with WOTC on this one, but just because he is a game designer does not give his opinion official weight. This ruling was determined by Andy Collins who is the sage and thus whose opinion DOES carry official weight. This question has been raised, asked, and answered. Native Outsiders get Martial Weapon proficiencies. Period. End-of-discussion. Why? Because you get all abilities listed in a type template (that has always been the rule) unless specifically told otherwise. You aren't in this case. It really is a very clear case of simply reading the rules and not reading what you think the rules should be. -Polaris EDIT PS: I note that the link only states what Chris Baker's opinion and intent were, which as we all know can often have only a passing aquaintance to what the actual rules say. Furthermore, look at the timestamp. Chris Baker has had a year to convince his fellow designers (including the Sage) to see it his way and to modify what Custserv says accordingly. Clearly this hasn't happened, so the answer I got back should be treated as official. |
| zook1shoe66609-28-07, 12:20 PM | Yes it is. I am well aware that Chris Baker disagrees with WOTC on this one, but just because he is a game designer does not give his opinion official weight. This ruling was determined by Andy Collins who is the sage and thus whose opinion DOES carry official weight. This question has been raised, asked, and answered. Native Outsiders get Martial Weapon proficiencies. Period. End-of-discussion. Why? Because you get all abilities listed in a type template (that has always been the rule) unless specifically told otherwise. You aren't in this case. It really is a very clear case of simply reading the rules and not reading what you think the rules should be. -Polaris completely agreed |