LA +1 race with flight? [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA +1 race with flight? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Necromas
04-11-07, 07:05 PM I want a warmage that can fly and only gives up 1 LA.

Is there any way to get a template that adds flight for only 1 LA, or a race with the ability to fly that only has 1 LA?
Wharin
04-11-07, 07:07 PM Well if you don't mind the wait, Raptorans, an LA 0 race, eventually get the ability to fly. I think they can get airborn by 5th level, and their maneuverability improves by 10th.
Ariath Ska'Vhor
04-11-07, 07:07 PM I can't think of any +1 races. Raptorans, however are LA +0, and slowly gain flight. They only gain the use of their flight at will at 10th level, but from 5th level to 10th they can fly for about 10 minutes a day for as many rounds at a time equal to their con modifier. I like them, personally.

Edit: Curses, simu'd.
Necromas
04-11-07, 07:14 PM Sorry I forgot to say this, but I'm aware of raptorans and dragonwrought kobolds, but I want permanent flight earlier than that, by then I could just get a magic item to fly.

I'm thinking I could do an anthropomorphic race, but those cha penalties hurt, and a lot of them are a little too cheesy.
Wharin
04-11-07, 07:19 PM Sorry, then in that case I believe you are out of luck, as far as official WotC races go.

You might have better luck finding (note: that does not mean getting DM approval for) something you like in a 3rd party published book. Though i can't be certain, I believe the "Tiefling and Aasimar" book by Green Ronin (?) had a planetouched half elf that had like perfect flight (at that was pretty much it, iirc) at +1 LA.
Ariath Ska'Vhor
04-11-07, 09:48 PM This is probably not the best idea, but an aasimar that gets two feats (one that gives a little more SLA's and the second grants wings) you can have a flight speed equal to your base land speed, my aasimar paladin has them.
Barloch
04-11-07, 10:44 PM warforged dragonborn of bahamut. At 6th level (if you choose wings or the wing feat, but don't! take mithril or admantine body or one of those cuz you lose composite plating) you can fly for double your con adjustment then become fatigued.... OH WAIT! You're a living construct, no fatigue. Then you can fly safely for 10 minutes a day, afterward you get fatigued... OH NO thats right living construct again. So basically you get around 8-12 rounds of flight depending on your con then 1 round of non-flight then that many more rounds of flight.
AMGriffin
04-11-07, 11:32 PM IIRC there's a feat Aasimar can take that gives them wings and flight.

Tieflings have one too.
VDOS
04-11-07, 11:49 PM In the planar handbook there are the mephlings. Air has a 10 fly speed (perfect) for +1 LA but they have an int penalty that can hurt your edge a little but the bonuses to cha and dex are real useful for a warmage. They are small which will help with being any caster and if you cast spells with the air descriptor +1 dc. They would make pretty good warmages and if you take the feat air heritage you can get the fly speed up to 20ft.
Wharin
04-11-07, 11:55 PM IIRC there's a feat Aasimar can take that gives them wings and flight.

Tieflings have one too.

Actually, yeah there is. BUT two things

a) its the second feat in a feat chain

b) it requires base saves in all 3 areas to be at least +2 (or was it +3), which rules out all but monks, or otherwise clevery multiclassed, until 6th level
Razorgrin
04-12-07, 05:18 PM Actually, yeah there is. BUT two things

a) its the second feat in a feat chain

b) it requires base saves in all 3 areas to be at least +2 (or was it +3), which rules out all but monks, or otherwise clevery multiclassed, until 6th level

Favored soul has three strong saves. If he's set on Warmage, he can take a single level of Ranger to gain strong Fort and Ref saves and take the second feat at 3rd level, unless the first feat in the chain requires him to be higher than 1st level for some reason.
Poison_Dusk
04-12-07, 06:03 PM Look at the Winged template from Savage Species. +1LA.
DEMONisbest
04-12-07, 06:17 PM Look at the Winged template from Savage Species. +1LA.

nope, its +2
InsanePsychoRabbit
04-12-07, 06:31 PM I made my own, it's in my sig under Birdfolk/Garuda. Is that good?
EternalWizard
04-12-07, 08:23 PM I made my own, it's in my sig under Birdfolk/Garuda. Is that good?

i like the description and what they get, but it seems quite unbalanced, i mean compare the Winged Template or even the Avariels! LA +1 is just TOO low i'm afraid
SpoonyBard
04-12-07, 08:38 PM The best way to get flight at low levels for a Warmage is use the Advanced Learning ability to let him take Alter Self (You can take an Evocation of level X or a non-evocation at one level lower, according to the varient). Then spend your days as an Avariel.
InsanePsychoRabbit
04-13-07, 07:44 PM i like the description and what they get, but it seems quite unbalanced, i mean compare the Winged Template or even the Avariels! LA +1 is just TOO low i'm afraid

The general consensus is that the Avariel's level adjustment is too high - a Winged Sun Elf gets almost all the same stuff for one less LA. I did several tests on the race (including the Acid test) and its Level Adjustment came out as +1. In fact, here's the site I used to balance it. (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html) If you still feel that LA +1 is too low, then you can tweak the race if you want - such as reducing the Dex bonus to +2 and cutting the Jump skill bonus.
Tectorman
04-13-07, 11:23 PM I've got a race in a link in my sig that'll do that. It's in the New Races link and after much scrolling down, you come to the Sylph-Birdfolk race, which may or may not be what you're looking for. Please note: eventually my sig will change as I break that thread up into it's individual races for ease of reading.

{Do not be fooled by the above comment; it was 85% pure advertisement.}
penchant
04-14-07, 03:16 AM two words: Flying Monkeys!
Romtos
04-14-07, 03:34 AM two words: Flying Monkeys!

As in Spirits of the Air from Fiend Folio? :D
Mr_Teapot
04-14-07, 08:28 AM Hengeyokai were LA +1 in 3.0, and according to the Dragon update, Hengeyokai are LA 0 in 3.5 (because they're no longer shapechanger type).

Sparrow and the other bird hengeyokai can fly while in hybrid form (or animal form, but I doubt you could cast spells while a sparrow).
Bladerock
04-14-07, 11:11 AM The reason there are so very few low LA races capable of flight is because Wizards thinks (for some reason) that having the capacity to fly is too unbalancing, even when you consider that they won't be able to do any flying with a load higher than light or on a narrow dungeon, where the PCs will be most of the time.

read all the dm help they have wirtten up among different books, Manny a times it degrades to "never, ever, ever, EVER give your low level PCs a means of flight. Why? because then they can fly over pits an' stuff, we don't care what youy think, we want low level PCs to jump over 'em." (poor wizard that didn't prepare the jump spell.)

I think it is all very strange considering the fly spell exists and doesn't limit your flight in tight spacing. Just make a hombrew human with wings that fly 30ft (average) and take the feat away or leave the feat and take the winged template, then you have LA: +1. That's my solution anyhow.
Ogrebear
04-16-07, 09:06 AM There is the Aarakocra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarakocra) from FR, DarkSun and Kyrnn.

http://ewancient.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/m/w/mwilkens1/aarakocra.jpg

Trying to find an LA I found a discussion on stats here on EnWorld (http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-4711.html)

Half Aarakocra-Half Elf home brew: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-11884.html)

Orginal AD&D 2nd Ed stats: here (http://www.seads.org/TSR/monbk.htm)

Racial Class on the boards, this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=633637) seems to suggest they are 'offically' LA+1

Athas.org have a rule book here (http://www.athas.org/releases/)that has the birdmen in.
YabaTheWhat
04-16-07, 09:37 AM The general consensus is that the Avariel's level adjustment is too high - a Winged Sun Elf gets almost all the same stuff for one less LA. I did several tests on the race (including the Acid test) and its Level Adjustment came out as +1. In fact, here's the site I used to balance it. (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html) If you still feel that LA +1 is too low, then you can tweak the race if you want - such as reducing the Dex bonus to +2 and cutting the Jump skill bonus. Soldarin's ECL calculator thinks an undead creature with CHA +16 (average score 26) with no other bonuses or penalties doesn't require a level adjustment. It's among the worst methods of LA calculation ever devised. Birdfolk Racial Traits:
Medium Humanoid (Avian) [0 FP]
A birdfolk’s base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] It has a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. [40 FP]
+4 Dex, -2 Con: Birdfolk are built for speed, but the hollow bones and gaunt build that grant them this quickness is the cause of their frailty. [+9+3h-3 = 9 FP]
+4 Spot: Like hawks, birdfolk are adapted for hunting and have excellent eyes for detail. [2 FP]
+2 Diplomacy: Good natured and understanding, birdfolk get along well with others. [1 FP]
+2 Intimidate: Birdfolk have the ability to puff up all their feathers to look bigger than they really are. [1 FP]
+4 Jump: A birdfolk can use its wings to assist it during jumps. [2 FP]
Weapon Proficiency: Birdfolk are automatically proficient with the shortbow (including the composite shortbow). Archery is a proud tradition among birdfolk, and all are trained in the art from an early age. [1 FP]
Unusual Body Shape: A birdfolk is considered non-humanoid for the purposes of determining armor cost. Therefore, armor for a birdfolk costs twice as much. [-1 FP]
Natural attacks: 2 talons (1d4). A flying birdfolk may make attacks with these, or it may use the weapons in its hands, but not both. While on the ground, it may only make a talon attack with a particular hand if the hand is free. [1 FP (see below)]
Automatic languages: Auran and Common. Bonus Languages: Celestial, Dwarven, Elven, Gnoll, Orc, and Sylvan. As birdfolk often become diplomats, it is important for them to know the languages of their friends, enemies, and neighbor races.
Favored class: Ranger. Once, when the birdfolk were a reserved and shut-in race, they highly prized their archer-defenders for being able to spot and shoot down enemies at a distance. The tradition of the archer-defenders lives on today in the training of birdfolk rangers, who must still defend against menaces like orcs and gnolls.
Level adjustment: +1 [see below] Total = 56 FP, LA +2 balanced. This assumes that they do not have use of more than two prehensile limbs at any given time, and do not have access to the multiattack or multiweapon fighting feats.
G_Mancer
04-16-07, 10:18 AM Soldarin's ECL calculator thinks an undead creature with CHA +16 (average score 26) with no other bonuses or penalties doesn't require a level adjustment. It's among the worst methods of LA calculation ever devised. Total = 56 FP, LA +2 balanced. This assumes that they do not have use of more than two prehensile limbs at any given time, and do not have access to the multiattack or multiweapon fighting feats.

a good point. are the talons jsut weapons, or can they hold stuff., raptorians, for ex., can hold whats called a foot bow in their talons.

i cant see them having a +2 Diplomacy. they're so awkwardly different, if i had written the race they woujld have gotten a -2 to cha. jump bonus is base for anything with wings, so it's not negotiable, it has to be kept.
its a bit over powered, i suiggest giving it -2 cha, and slowing the fly speed to 30 to match land. it usualyl happens where the flight speed it 2x the land speed, but an owl isn't as fast as a hawk for darn sure.
Castegyre
04-16-07, 10:36 AM I have a side question: What and where are the feats that can give Aasimar and Teiflings flight? I glanced through a couple of books and couldn't find them.
Foxhengeyokai
04-16-07, 10:53 AM Look at the Sparrow and the Crane Hengeyokai in the Oriental Adventures book. If you're willing to accept a -2 to wisdom, some cracks about furries (I've heard them all, believe me,)
and a rather unpleasant land speed hit, you gain flight at 30 feet, at will while in hybrid form. In addition, you'll have a +2 to dex.

Hengeyokai ^_^
sipmalice
04-16-07, 10:56 AM I have a side question: What and where are the feats that can give Aasimar and Teiflings flight? I glanced through a couple of books and couldn't find them.

Races of Faerun.
YabaTheWhat
04-16-07, 11:00 AM a good point. are the talons jsut weapons, or can they hold stuff., raptorians, for ex., can hold whats called a foot bow in their talons. Actually, the natural weapons would be worth more if they are useable in addition to held weapons. Unlike extra prehensile limbs, the difference wouldn't be enough to push them up a full LA. An additional 2d4 damage from natural weapons (on top of using held weapons) is worth 8 FP. The talons are listed at only 1 FP because they sound like they replace existing held weapon slots, and the damage is no better than a dagger (so that their only advantage is never being caught unarmed).
Castegyre
04-16-07, 11:03 AM Races of Faerun.

Thanks
Disciple_of_Juiblex
04-16-07, 05:23 PM anthro bat: 20 fly speed, LA +0. problem -2 cha. still playable :P

Anthro raven: 30 fly speed, la +0. Problem -4 cha, may not be as good as an option

List of LA+ 0 races
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=697653

hope that helps :D
Phalo
04-17-07, 01:18 AM why not use human then take the feats from lords of madness. its like Abberant blood , any abberant feat , Then star spawn. Flight by the first free feat.
Squirrelloid
04-17-07, 11:35 AM Play a halfling. Get a familiar - choose Hawk (You might have to choose the feat that gives you one). Cast reduce person. (Or have someone cast it for you). Ride your familiar.

Combat Flight from level 1, LA +0.
shades of eternity
04-17-07, 02:28 PM I like it, but shouldn't it be an eagle (size small as opposed to size tiny)?
InsanePsychoRabbit
04-17-07, 04:04 PM Actually, the natural weapons would be worth more if they are useable in addition to held weapons. Unlike extra prehensile limbs, the difference wouldn't be enough to push them up a full LA. An additional 2d4 damage from natural weapons (on top of using held weapons) is worth 8 FP. The talons are listed at only 1 FP because they sound like they replace existing held weapon slots, and the damage is no better than a dagger (so that their only advantage is never being caught unarmed).

Yaba got it right in this instance. A Garuda wielding, say, a sword in its left hand couldn't use its left hand to make a talon attack. A Garuda attacking with its foot talons in air combat couldn't use the weapons in its hands at the same time, and vice versa.

The reason they have +2 Diplomacy and no Charisma penalty is because they're stately and have a powerful presence. Garuda are eagle-like, and ithe spell is called Eagle's Splendor for a reason.

I myself was on the fence for a while about the level adjustment. I managed to play one at LA +1 in a game with no problem, but it was a dungeon-based campaign where flight was useless.
Squirrelloid
04-17-07, 06:54 PM I like it, but shouldn't it be an eagle (size small as opposed to size tiny)?

You can ride a mount the same size as you or larger. Ie, humans (and dwarves) can ride ponies (which are medium sized).
InsanePsychoRabbit
04-18-07, 07:42 AM You can ride a mount the same size as you or larger. Ie, humans (and dwarves) can ride ponies (which are medium sized).

In this rules edition you can only ride a creature one size or more larger than you.
Squirrelloid
04-18-07, 02:54 PM In this rules edition you can only ride a creature one size or more larger than you.

sigh...

Would you care to quote the rules on the matter? Because I'm seeing no prohibition against it - so long as your mount has sufficient carrying capacity they can lift you. If they occupy at least the same space, its at least physically plausible. Therefore, you can use them as a mount.

Any rules system which tells me Gimli can't ride a pony is just wrong. Or heck, that a person can't ride a pony is wrong. People race ponies in real life. http://www.pcuk.org/output/disciplines/page_1889.html

But the rules don't tell you that. They never prohibit anything as a mount. Now, if it can't move carrying you, it just doesn't work as a mount. But barring that, rules-wise it seems fine.
celestialkin
04-19-07, 07:29 AM IIRC there's a feat Aasimar can take that gives them wings and flight.

Tieflings have one too.

Can you please tell me where I can find this feat for a Tiefling? I'm in the middle of making a Lesser Tiefling character, and this could be very useful for him.
Skeeve
04-19-07, 08:53 AM Can you please tell me where I can find this feat for a Tiefling? I'm in the middle of making a Lesser Tiefling character, and this could be very useful for him.

They're found in the feats section of Races of Faerun.
Argaud
04-19-07, 09:54 AM sigh...

Would you care to quote the rules on the matter? Because I'm seeing no prohibition against it - so long as your mount has sufficient carrying capacity they can lift you. If they occupy at least the same space, its at least physically plausible. Therefore, you can use them as a mount.

Any rules system which tells me Gimli can't ride a pony is just wrong. Or heck, that a person can't ride a pony is wrong. People race ponies in real life. http://www.pcuk.org/output/disciplines/page_1889.html

But the rules don't tell you that. They never prohibit anything as a mount. Now, if it can't move carrying you, it just doesn't work as a mount. But barring that, rules-wise it seems fine.
DMG page 204. A section that, strangely, is titled "Mounts".

Although they leave some room for the DM to make exceptions. I would make one for ponies. Not so sure about birds.
Squirrelloid
04-19-07, 03:01 PM DMG page 204. A section that, strangely, is titled "Mounts".

Although they leave some room for the DM to make exceptions. I would make one for ponies. Not so sure about birds.

This really is a question of: (1) Can it lift you? (2) Can you fit on its back. If you can answer "yes" to both of those question, you can use it as a mount.

Now, given that each size class includes a range of sizes (a pony is clearly larger than a human, even if they are both medium), the rational thing to do is look at actual size. A short halfling should easily be able to ride on the back of a tiny bird or bat if he casts reduce person.
YabaTheWhat
04-19-07, 03:56 PM This really is a question of: (1) Can it lift you? (2) Can you fit on its back. If you can answer "yes" to both of those question, you can use it as a mount. Actually it's a bit more complicated than that, though you've captured the general idea.
{1} Can it lift both you and your gear, and still move at a reasonable pace for an extended duration? For flying (winged) mounts, this means that rider and gear combined cannot exceed a light load. For land-based mounts, rider and gear must not exceed a heavy load, and should not exceed a light load for extended or hurried trips. Land-based quadrupeds have an advantage of 50% greater carrying capacity (in each encumberance category).
{2} Can you fit and remain stable on its back (or other applicable riding location) without imbalancing it or impeding its movement? If the mount and rider are nearly the same size, the rider may need to sit in an awkward position to avoid impeding the mount's limb movement. This is particularly problematic with flying mounts, whose wings (on both sides), head, and tail are all required to maneuver.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necromas 04-11-07, 07:05 PM	I want a warmage that can fly and only gives up 1 LA. Is there any way to get a template that adds flight for only 1 LA, or a race with the ability to fly that only has 1 LA?
Wharin 04-11-07, 07:07 PM	Well if you don't mind the wait, Raptorans, an LA 0 race, eventually get the ability to fly. I think they can get airborn by 5th level, and their maneuverability improves by 10th.
Ariath Ska'Vhor 04-11-07, 07:07 PM	I can't think of any +1 races. Raptorans, however are LA +0, and slowly gain flight. They only gain the use of their flight at will at 10th level, but from 5th level to 10th they can fly for about 10 minutes a day for as many rounds at a time equal to their con modifier. I like them, personally. Edit: Curses, simu'd.
Necromas 04-11-07, 07:14 PM	Sorry I forgot to say this, but I'm aware of raptorans and dragonwrought kobolds, but I want permanent flight earlier than that, by then I could just get a magic item to fly. I'm thinking I could do an anthropomorphic race, but those cha penalties hurt, and a lot of them are a little too cheesy.
Wharin 04-11-07, 07:19 PM	Sorry, then in that case I believe you are out of luck, as far as official WotC races go. You might have better luck finding (note: that does not mean getting DM approval for) something you like in a 3rd party published book. Though i can't be certain, I believe the "Tiefling and Aasimar" book by Green Ronin (?) had a planetouched half elf that had like perfect flight (at that was pretty much it, iirc) at +1 LA.
Ariath Ska'Vhor 04-11-07, 09:48 PM	This is probably not the best idea, but an aasimar that gets two feats (one that gives a little more SLA's and the second grants wings) you can have a flight speed equal to your base land speed, my aasimar paladin has them.
Barloch 04-11-07, 10:44 PM	warforged dragonborn of bahamut. At 6th level (if you choose wings or the wing feat, but don't! take mithril or admantine body or one of those cuz you lose composite plating) you can fly for double your con adjustment then become fatigued.... OH WAIT! You're a living construct, no fatigue. Then you can fly safely for 10 minutes a day, afterward you get fatigued... OH NO thats right living construct again. So basically you get around 8-12 rounds of flight depending on your con then 1 round of non-flight then that many more rounds of flight.
AMGriffin 04-11-07, 11:32 PM	IIRC there's a feat Aasimar can take that gives them wings and flight. Tieflings have one too.
VDOS 04-11-07, 11:49 PM	In the planar handbook there are the mephlings. Air has a 10 fly speed (perfect) for +1 LA but they have an int penalty that can hurt your edge a little but the bonuses to cha and dex are real useful for a warmage. They are small which will help with being any caster and if you cast spells with the air descriptor +1 dc. They would make pretty good warmages and if you take the feat air heritage you can get the fly speed up to 20ft.
Wharin 04-11-07, 11:55 PM	IIRC there's a feat Aasimar can take that gives them wings and flight. Tieflings have one too. Actually, yeah there is. BUT two things a) its the second feat in a feat chain b) it requires base saves in all 3 areas to be at least +2 (or was it +3), which rules out all but monks, or otherwise clevery multiclassed, until 6th level
Razorgrin 04-12-07, 05:18 PM	Actually, yeah there is. BUT two things a) its the second feat in a feat chain b) it requires base saves in all 3 areas to be at least +2 (or was it +3), which rules out all but monks, or otherwise clevery multiclassed, until 6th level Favored soul has three strong saves. If he's set on Warmage, he can take a single level of Ranger to gain strong Fort and Ref saves and take the second feat at 3rd level, unless the first feat in the chain requires him to be higher than 1st level for some reason.
Poison_Dusk 04-12-07, 06:03 PM	Look at the Winged template from Savage Species. +1LA.
DEMONisbest 04-12-07, 06:17 PM	Look at the Winged template from Savage Species. +1LA. nope, its +2
InsanePsychoRabbit 04-12-07, 06:31 PM	I made my own, it's in my sig under Birdfolk/Garuda. Is that good?
EternalWizard 04-12-07, 08:23 PM	I made my own, it's in my sig under Birdfolk/Garuda. Is that good? i like the description and what they get, but it seems quite unbalanced, i mean compare the Winged Template or even the Avariels! LA +1 is just TOO low i'm afraid
SpoonyBard 04-12-07, 08:38 PM	The best way to get flight at low levels for a Warmage is use the Advanced Learning ability to let him take Alter Self (You can take an Evocation of level X or a non-evocation at one level lower, according to the varient). Then spend your days as an Avariel.
InsanePsychoRabbit 04-13-07, 07:44 PM	i like the description and what they get, but it seems quite unbalanced, i mean compare the Winged Template or even the Avariels! LA +1 is just TOO low i'm afraid The general consensus is that the Avariel's level adjustment is too high - a Winged Sun Elf gets almost all the same stuff for one less LA. I did several tests on the race (including the Acid test) and its Level Adjustment came out as +1. In fact, here's the site I used to balance it. (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html) If you still feel that LA +1 is too low, then you can tweak the race if you want - such as reducing the Dex bonus to +2 and cutting the Jump skill bonus.
Tectorman 04-13-07, 11:23 PM	I've got a race in a link in my sig that'll do that. It's in the New Races link and after much scrolling down, you come to the Sylph-Birdfolk race, which may or may not be what you're looking for. Please note: eventually my sig will change as I break that thread up into it's individual races for ease of reading. {Do not be fooled by the above comment; it was 85% pure advertisement.}
penchant 04-14-07, 03:16 AM	two words: Flying Monkeys!
Romtos 04-14-07, 03:34 AM	two words: Flying Monkeys! As in Spirits of the Air from Fiend Folio? :D
Mr_Teapot 04-14-07, 08:28 AM	Hengeyokai were LA +1 in 3.0, and according to the Dragon update, Hengeyokai are LA 0 in 3.5 (because they're no longer shapechanger type). Sparrow and the other bird hengeyokai can fly while in hybrid form (or animal form, but I doubt you could cast spells while a sparrow).
Bladerock 04-14-07, 11:11 AM	The reason there are so very few low LA races capable of flight is because Wizards thinks (for some reason) that having the capacity to fly is too unbalancing, even when you consider that they won't be able to do any flying with a load higher than light or on a narrow dungeon, where the PCs will be most of the time. read all the dm help they have wirtten up among different books, Manny a times it degrades to "never, ever, ever, EVER give your low level PCs a means of flight. Why? because then they can fly over pits an' stuff, we don't care what youy think, we want low level PCs to jump over 'em." (poor wizard that didn't prepare the jump spell.) I think it is all very strange considering the fly spell exists and doesn't limit your flight in tight spacing. Just make a hombrew human with wings that fly 30ft (average) and take the feat away or leave the feat and take the winged template, then you have LA: +1. That's my solution anyhow.
Ogrebear 04-16-07, 09:06 AM	There is the Aarakocra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarakocra) from FR, DarkSun and Kyrnn. http://ewancient.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/m/w/mwilkens1/aarakocra.jpg Trying to find an LA I found a discussion on stats here on EnWorld (http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-4711.html) Half Aarakocra-Half Elf home brew: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-11884.html) Orginal AD&D 2nd Ed stats: here (http://www.seads.org/TSR/monbk.htm) Racial Class on the boards, this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=633637) seems to suggest they are 'offically' LA+1 Athas.org have a rule book here (http://www.athas.org/releases/)that has the birdmen in.
YabaTheWhat 04-16-07, 09:37 AM	The general consensus is that the Avariel's level adjustment is too high - a Winged Sun Elf gets almost all the same stuff for one less LA. I did several tests on the race (including the Acid test) and its Level Adjustment came out as +1. In fact, here's the site I used to balance it. (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html) If you still feel that LA +1 is too low, then you can tweak the race if you want - such as reducing the Dex bonus to +2 and cutting the Jump skill bonus. Soldarin's ECL calculator thinks an undead creature with CHA +16 (average score 26) with no other bonuses or penalties doesn't require a level adjustment. It's among the worst methods of LA calculation ever devised. Birdfolk Racial Traits: Medium Humanoid (Avian) [0 FP] A birdfolk’s base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] It has a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. [40 FP] +4 Dex, -2 Con: Birdfolk are built for speed, but the hollow bones and gaunt build that grant them this quickness is the cause of their frailty. [+9+3h-3 = 9 FP] +4 Spot: Like hawks, birdfolk are adapted for hunting and have excellent eyes for detail. [2 FP] +2 Diplomacy: Good natured and understanding, birdfolk get along well with others. [1 FP] +2 Intimidate: Birdfolk have the ability to puff up all their feathers to look bigger than they really are. [1 FP] +4 Jump: A birdfolk can use its wings to assist it during jumps. [2 FP] Weapon Proficiency: Birdfolk are automatically proficient with the shortbow (including the composite shortbow). Archery is a proud tradition among birdfolk, and all are trained in the art from an early age. [1 FP] Unusual Body Shape: A birdfolk is considered non-humanoid for the purposes of determining armor cost. Therefore, armor for a birdfolk costs twice as much. [-1 FP] Natural attacks: 2 talons (1d4). A flying birdfolk may make attacks with these, or it may use the weapons in its hands, but not both. While on the ground, it may only make a talon attack with a particular hand if the hand is free. [1 FP (see below)] Automatic languages: Auran and Common. Bonus Languages: Celestial, Dwarven, Elven, Gnoll, Orc, and Sylvan. As birdfolk often become diplomats, it is important for them to know the languages of their friends, enemies, and neighbor races. Favored class: Ranger. Once, when the birdfolk were a reserved and shut-in race, they highly prized their archer-defenders for being able to spot and shoot down enemies at a distance. The tradition of the archer-defenders lives on today in the training of birdfolk rangers, who must still defend against menaces like orcs and gnolls. Level adjustment: +1 [see below] Total = 56 FP, LA +2 balanced. This assumes that they do not have use of more than two prehensile limbs at any given time, and do not have access to the multiattack or multiweapon fighting feats.
G_Mancer 04-16-07, 10:18 AM	Soldarin's ECL calculator thinks an undead creature with CHA +16 (average score 26) with no other bonuses or penalties doesn't require a level adjustment. It's among the worst methods of LA calculation ever devised. Total = 56 FP, LA +2 balanced. This assumes that they do not have use of more than two prehensile limbs at any given time, and do not have access to the multiattack or multiweapon fighting feats. a good point. are the talons jsut weapons, or can they hold stuff., raptorians, for ex., can hold whats called a foot bow in their talons. i cant see them having a +2 Diplomacy. they're so awkwardly different, if i had written the race they woujld have gotten a -2 to cha. jump bonus is base for anything with wings, so it's not negotiable, it has to be kept. its a bit over powered, i suiggest giving it -2 cha, and slowing the fly speed to 30 to match land. it usualyl happens where the flight speed it 2x the land speed, but an owl isn't as fast as a hawk for darn sure.
Castegyre 04-16-07, 10:36 AM	I have a side question: What and where are the feats that can give Aasimar and Teiflings flight? I glanced through a couple of books and couldn't find them.
Foxhengeyokai 04-16-07, 10:53 AM	Look at the Sparrow and the Crane Hengeyokai in the Oriental Adventures book. If you're willing to accept a -2 to wisdom, some cracks about furries (I've heard them all, believe me,) and a rather unpleasant land speed hit, you gain flight at 30 feet, at will while in hybrid form. In addition, you'll have a +2 to dex. Hengeyokai ^_^
sipmalice 04-16-07, 10:56 AM	I have a side question: What and where are the feats that can give Aasimar and Teiflings flight? I glanced through a couple of books and couldn't find them. Races of Faerun.
YabaTheWhat 04-16-07, 11:00 AM	a good point. are the talons jsut weapons, or can they hold stuff., raptorians, for ex., can hold whats called a foot bow in their talons. Actually, the natural weapons would be worth more if they are useable in addition to held weapons. Unlike extra prehensile limbs, the difference wouldn't be enough to push them up a full LA. An additional 2d4 damage from natural weapons (on top of using held weapons) is worth 8 FP. The talons are listed at only 1 FP because they sound like they replace existing held weapon slots, and the damage is no better than a dagger (so that their only advantage is never being caught unarmed).
Castegyre 04-16-07, 11:03 AM	Races of Faerun. Thanks
Disciple_of_Juiblex 04-16-07, 05:23 PM	anthro bat: 20 fly speed, LA +0. problem -2 cha. still playable :P Anthro raven: 30 fly speed, la +0. Problem -4 cha, may not be as good as an option List of LA+ 0 races http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=697653 hope that helps :D
Phalo 04-17-07, 01:18 AM	why not use human then take the feats from lords of madness. its like Abberant blood , any abberant feat , Then star spawn. Flight by the first free feat.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 11:35 AM	Play a halfling. Get a familiar - choose Hawk (You might have to choose the feat that gives you one). Cast reduce person. (Or have someone cast it for you). Ride your familiar. Combat Flight from level 1, LA +0.
shades of eternity 04-17-07, 02:28 PM	I like it, but shouldn't it be an eagle (size small as opposed to size tiny)?
InsanePsychoRabbit 04-17-07, 04:04 PM	Actually, the natural weapons would be worth more if they are useable in addition to held weapons. Unlike extra prehensile limbs, the difference wouldn't be enough to push them up a full LA. An additional 2d4 damage from natural weapons (on top of using held weapons) is worth 8 FP. The talons are listed at only 1 FP because they sound like they replace existing held weapon slots, and the damage is no better than a dagger (so that their only advantage is never being caught unarmed). Yaba got it right in this instance. A Garuda wielding, say, a sword in its left hand couldn't use its left hand to make a talon attack. A Garuda attacking with its foot talons in air combat couldn't use the weapons in its hands at the same time, and vice versa. The reason they have +2 Diplomacy and no Charisma penalty is because they're stately and have a powerful presence. Garuda are eagle-like, and ithe spell is called Eagle's Splendor for a reason. I myself was on the fence for a while about the level adjustment. I managed to play one at LA +1 in a game with no problem, but it was a dungeon-based campaign where flight was useless.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 06:54 PM	I like it, but shouldn't it be an eagle (size small as opposed to size tiny)? You can ride a mount the same size as you or larger. Ie, humans (and dwarves) can ride ponies (which are medium sized).
InsanePsychoRabbit 04-18-07, 07:42 AM	You can ride a mount the same size as you or larger. Ie, humans (and dwarves) can ride ponies (which are medium sized). In this rules edition you can only ride a creature one size or more larger than you.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 02:54 PM	In this rules edition you can only ride a creature one size or more larger than you. sigh... Would you care to quote the rules on the matter? Because I'm seeing no prohibition against it - so long as your mount has sufficient carrying capacity they can lift you. If they occupy at least the same space, its at least physically plausible. Therefore, you can use them as a mount. Any rules system which tells me Gimli can't ride a pony is just wrong. Or heck, that a person can't ride a pony is wrong. People race ponies in real life. http://www.pcuk.org/output/disciplines/page_1889.html But the rules don't tell you that. They never prohibit anything as a mount. Now, if it can't move carrying you, it just doesn't work as a mount. But barring that, rules-wise it seems fine.
celestialkin 04-19-07, 07:29 AM	IIRC there's a feat Aasimar can take that gives them wings and flight. Tieflings have one too. Can you please tell me where I can find this feat for a Tiefling? I'm in the middle of making a Lesser Tiefling character, and this could be very useful for him.
Skeeve 04-19-07, 08:53 AM	Can you please tell me where I can find this feat for a Tiefling? I'm in the middle of making a Lesser Tiefling character, and this could be very useful for him. They're found in the feats section of Races of Faerun.
Argaud 04-19-07, 09:54 AM	sigh... Would you care to quote the rules on the matter? Because I'm seeing no prohibition against it - so long as your mount has sufficient carrying capacity they can lift you. If they occupy at least the same space, its at least physically plausible. Therefore, you can use them as a mount. Any rules system which tells me Gimli can't ride a pony is just wrong. Or heck, that a person can't ride a pony is wrong. People race ponies in real life. http://www.pcuk.org/output/disciplines/page_1889.html But the rules don't tell you that. They never prohibit anything as a mount. Now, if it can't move carrying you, it just doesn't work as a mount. But barring that, rules-wise it seems fine. DMG page 204. A section that, strangely, is titled "Mounts". Although they leave some room for the DM to make exceptions. I would make one for ponies. Not so sure about birds.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 03:01 PM	DMG page 204. A section that, strangely, is titled "Mounts". Although they leave some room for the DM to make exceptions. I would make one for ponies. Not so sure about birds. This really is a question of: (1) Can it lift you? (2) Can you fit on its back. If you can answer "yes" to both of those question, you can use it as a mount. Now, given that each size class includes a range of sizes (a pony is clearly larger than a human, even if they are both medium), the rational thing to do is look at actual size. A short halfling should easily be able to ride on the back of a tiny bird or bat if he casts reduce person.
YabaTheWhat 04-19-07, 03:56 PM	This really is a question of: (1) Can it lift you? (2) Can you fit on its back. If you can answer "yes" to both of those question, you can use it as a mount. Actually it's a bit more complicated than that, though you've captured the general idea. {1} Can it lift both you and your gear, and still move at a reasonable pace for an extended duration? For flying (winged) mounts, this means that rider and gear combined cannot exceed a light load. For land-based mounts, rider and gear must not exceed a heavy load, and should not exceed a light load for extended or hurried trips. Land-based quadrupeds have an advantage of 50% greater carrying capacity (in each encumberance category). {2} Can you fit and remain stable on its back (or other applicable riding location) without imbalancing it or impeding its movement? If the mount and rider are nearly the same size, the rider may need to sit in an awkward position to avoid impeding the mount's limb movement. This is particularly problematic with flying mounts, whose wings (on both sides), head, and tail are all required to maneuver.