LA Advice [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

LA Advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
olshanski_home
03-13-07, 03:01 PM I am creating a race:

+2 Strength
Darkvision out to 120 feet.
Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels.
See in Magical Darkness (Su): see perfectly in magical darkness, even that created by a deeper darkness spell. (The effect is as if there was no magical darkness at all, thus magical darkness underground 200 feet away is not visible, since it falls outside of the 120 foot darkvision)

Does this look like an LA+1 race?
Onikani
03-13-07, 03:18 PM IIRC from YabbatheWhat's feature points:

+2 stat = 4 points
Darkvision 60 = 3 points, so maybe 6 for the added range.

A +1LA should be around 30 points.

i dunno if the SR + superdarkvision will add up to more than 25 points by themselves, but i kinda doubt it.

*shrugs*

Seems within the range.

But a warning, this thing is a killer as a spellcaster, since it can make places all kinds of dark then see fine. Sounds like a this race as a Shadowdancer or Assassin would really peev a dm...
Tread lightly.
sick.
olshanski_home
03-13-07, 03:26 PM Lots of devils already have that superdarkvision, so it is not without precident.
Otherguy
03-13-07, 03:35 PM And either the feral or half-dragon (I don't remember which) actually grants darkvision. The SR seems like it would be really tipping the balance if it stacks with SR from other effects, but I doubt it would, right? Right? At first I thought it would be a bit unbalanced, but if that's it, LA 1 does look like it'd be fine to me.
Vintar
03-13-07, 03:35 PM I'd say lower the SR to 5+ class levels and it is +1 LA. As is it is +2.
Onikani
03-13-07, 05:55 PM depends on the effect.

If the race grants SR 11 and something else grants SR 3 they they likely would not stack (they would say specificially if they do stack).
Morwen
03-13-07, 06:01 PM +1 seems fair. It's basically Drow with only 1 +2 ability score modifier, and without the spell-like abilities and bonus to will saves. Exchanging those and light blindness for 1 point of level adjustment seems just about right.
WinterPsionic
03-13-07, 06:10 PM Looks like an LA +2 class to me, the SR almost guarantee's an LA all on it's own and the ability to see through magical darkness isn't that common a trait and truthfully quite exploitable in many campaigns.

If you dropped the darkvision to the standard 60ft you could probably pull a high end +1.
Onikani
03-13-07, 06:59 PM i serioulsy think that the ability to see in magical darkness is way stronger than DV 120'.

Ironically the SR11 i'm not even as worried about...
Nat_20
03-13-07, 07:12 PM Where doe3s one go about in finding the point system for race creation?

But it looks like a lvl +1 to me..
TheCarrionCrawler
03-13-07, 07:43 PM To give this race both 120ft darkvision AND See in Darkness, it would warrant more than a +1 LA. All the devils I looked at in MM all had Darkvision to 60ft.
Witch
03-13-07, 08:04 PM See in Darkness already brings Darkvision without range.

See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
Hence the darkvision 120ft. is irrelevant.

+1 seems fine.
j_gunder
03-13-07, 08:57 PM It's probably +2 LA. That's where I would put it, anyways.

Compare it to any other +1 LA and it's going to seem overpowered, I think...the 11+ SR is pretty big, probably warrants +1 by itself, and the See in Darkness ability coupled with the +2 strength are enough to tip it over, in my opinion...low +2 LA, but +2 LA nonetheless.

To make it +1 LA, add some mitigating factors. Certainly Light Blindness, I would think. Even then, it still looks an awfully lot like the drow...
Neutronium_Dragon
03-13-07, 09:36 PM +1 LA is fine. SR is nice, yes, but the other traits aren't particularly amazing.

I don't consider the "See In Darkness" trait to be all that significant, really. Okay, this allows you to ignore what, two or three uncommon spells which create one type of fairly readily countered effect? Yes, it's nice, but unless you're fighting Darkness-happy drow all the time, it's rarely going to have much gameplay impact.

If it allowed you to ignore all impediments to vision then I could see getting a bit more excited about it, but it doesn't.
runestar
03-13-07, 09:39 PM It is a bit too weak.
A precedent is the hagspawn in unapproachable east, which at LA+2, grants +2str/con, -2cha, NA+2, sr11+class lvs.

Think you can safely give it another +2 con and still keep it within the LA+2 safe range.:)
olshanski_home
03-14-07, 02:02 PM Note that my version of "see in darkness" includes the qualifier "see in MAGICAL darkness". Not unlimited darvision like devils have. Darkvision extends to 120 feet, and if anywhere within that area is magical darkness, it can be seen as well.

Since the jury is out, I think I am going to allow it as LA+1 yet.
I've found that SR is often more of a hinderance than a help when you have a very cooperative party. I strictly enforce requiring a standard action to drop SR.

It sucks to be you when the party wizard needs to do an emergency dimension door, but your SR leaves you behind as the rest of your party vanishes.

Regarding comparisons to drow:
Is access to DC16 knock-out poison more or less useful than seeing in magical darkness?
Or is the poison use not considered a factor in Drow LA?
Sleepwalker13666
03-14-07, 02:18 PM Regarding comparisons to drow:
Is access to DC16 knock-out poison more or less useful than seeing in magical darkness?
Or is the poison use not considered a factor in Drow LA?

The poison isn't because anyone can buy it, drow do not have an unlimited supply. However you race seems fine as a +1 It's not as powerful as a whisper gnome which somehow skated by without a level adj.
Witch
03-14-07, 02:25 PM Note that my version of "see in darkness" includes the qualifier "see in MAGICAL darkness". Not unlimited darvision like devils have. Darkvision extends to 120 feet, and if anywhere within that area is magical darkness, it can be seen as well.
Then please give it another name - the name you've given it causes confusion.
olshanski_home
03-14-07, 02:36 PM Which:
Thank you for considering the LA of this race.

In my defense, there are plenty of abilities in the core rules in which an identically named ability has different effects:
Madness (Ex): Derro use their Charisma modifier on Will saves instead of their Wisdom modifier, and have immunity to confusion and insanity effects. A derro cannot be restored to sanity by any means short of a miracle or wish spell.
*The racial madness of the derro provides a +6 bonus to their Charisma scores and a –6 penalty to their Wisdom scores. A derro restored to sanity gains 6 points of Wisdom and loses 6 points of Charisma.
Madness (Su): Anyone targeting an allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic ability makes direct contact with its tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage.

Heat (Ex): An efreeti’s red-hot body deals 1d6 points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling.
Heat (Ex): An enraged remorhaz generates heat so intense that anything touching its body takes 8d6 points of fire damage. Creatures striking a remorhaz with natural attacks or unarmed attacks are subject to this damage, but creatures striking with melee weapons do not take damage from the remorhaz’s heat. This heat can melt or char weapons; any weapon that strikes a remorhaz is allowed a DC 18 Fortitude save to avoid destruction. The save DC is Constitution-based. Skills:
Heat (Ex): A salamander generates so much heat that its mere touch deals additional fire damage. Salamanders’ metallic weapons also conduct this heat.

I'll modify the original post to say "See in Magical darkness" so as to avoid confusion in the future.
YabaTheWhat
03-14-07, 03:16 PM I am creating a race:

+2 Strength [4 FP]
Darkvision out to 120 feet. [4 FP]
Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels. [31 FP]
See in Magical Darkness (Su): See perfectly in magical darkness, even that created by a deeper darkness spell, out to the range of its darkvision. (The effect is as if there was no magical darkness at all, thus magical darkness underground 200 feet away is not visible, since it falls outside of the 120 foot darkvision) [4 FP (see below)]

Does this look like an LA+1 race? Total = 43 FP, LA+1 overpowered.

Because the race already has darkvision, the immunity to magical darkness is, in effect, immunity to two or three spells, and is similar in power to (though slightly better than) Elven sleep immunity. Still, with SR that starts at 12 and climbs steadily, plus the strength bonus and darkness vision, it's definitely very potent even at LA+1.
runestar
03-14-07, 10:13 PM It sucks to be you when the party wizard needs to do an emergency dimension door, but your SR leaves you behind as the rest of your party vanishes.
I don't think dimension door allows sr, nor does teleport. :)
olshanski_home
03-15-07, 09:52 AM I don't think dimension door allows sr, nor does teleport. :)

My bad.
How about the old cure critical wounds?
olshanski_home
03-16-07, 05:33 PM Total = 43 FP, LA+1 overpowered.

Because the race already has darkvision, the immunity to magical darkness is, in effect, immunity to two or three spells, and is similar in power to (though slightly better than) Elven sleep immunity. Still, with SR that starts at 12 and climbs steadily, plus the strength bonus and darkness vision, it's definitely very potent even at LA+1.

After consulting the charts, I'll knock down SR 1 or 2 steps. This should put it safely at the 37-40, which seems well within the LA+1 range. Even at 43 it doesn't appear to be much more overpowered than a dwarf at LA+0.

This isn't absolutley ridiculous like the whisper gnome.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
olshanski_home 03-13-07, 03:01 PM	I am creating a race: +2 Strength Darkvision out to 120 feet. Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels. See in Magical Darkness (Su): see perfectly in magical darkness, even that created by a deeper darkness spell. (The effect is as if there was no magical darkness at all, thus magical darkness underground 200 feet away is not visible, since it falls outside of the 120 foot darkvision) Does this look like an LA+1 race?
Onikani 03-13-07, 03:18 PM	IIRC from YabbatheWhat's feature points: +2 stat = 4 points Darkvision 60 = 3 points, so maybe 6 for the added range. A +1LA should be around 30 points. i dunno if the SR + superdarkvision will add up to more than 25 points by themselves, but i kinda doubt it. shrugs Seems within the range. But a warning, this thing is a killer as a spellcaster, since it can make places all kinds of dark then see fine. Sounds like a this race as a Shadowdancer or Assassin would really peev a dm... Tread lightly. sick.
olshanski_home 03-13-07, 03:26 PM	Lots of devils already have that superdarkvision, so it is not without precident.
Otherguy 03-13-07, 03:35 PM	And either the feral or half-dragon (I don't remember which) actually grants darkvision. The SR seems like it would be really tipping the balance if it stacks with SR from other effects, but I doubt it would, right? Right? At first I thought it would be a bit unbalanced, but if that's it, LA 1 does look like it'd be fine to me.
Vintar 03-13-07, 03:35 PM	I'd say lower the SR to 5+ class levels and it is +1 LA. As is it is +2.
Onikani 03-13-07, 05:55 PM	depends on the effect. If the race grants SR 11 and something else grants SR 3 they they likely would not stack (they would say specificially if they do stack).
Morwen 03-13-07, 06:01 PM	+1 seems fair. It's basically Drow with only 1 +2 ability score modifier, and without the spell-like abilities and bonus to will saves. Exchanging those and light blindness for 1 point of level adjustment seems just about right.
WinterPsionic 03-13-07, 06:10 PM	Looks like an LA +2 class to me, the SR almost guarantee's an LA all on it's own and the ability to see through magical darkness isn't that common a trait and truthfully quite exploitable in many campaigns. If you dropped the darkvision to the standard 60ft you could probably pull a high end +1.
Onikani 03-13-07, 06:59 PM	i serioulsy think that the ability to see in magical darkness is way stronger than DV 120'. Ironically the SR11 i'm not even as worried about...
Nat_20 03-13-07, 07:12 PM	Where doe3s one go about in finding the point system for race creation? But it looks like a lvl +1 to me..
TheCarrionCrawler 03-13-07, 07:43 PM	To give this race both 120ft darkvision AND See in Darkness, it would warrant more than a +1 LA. All the devils I looked at in MM all had Darkvision to 60ft.
Witch 03-13-07, 08:04 PM	See in Darkness already brings Darkvision without range. See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell. Hence the darkvision 120ft. is irrelevant. +1 seems fine.
j_gunder 03-13-07, 08:57 PM	It's probably +2 LA. That's where I would put it, anyways. Compare it to any other +1 LA and it's going to seem overpowered, I think...the 11+ SR is pretty big, probably warrants +1 by itself, and the See in Darkness ability coupled with the +2 strength are enough to tip it over, in my opinion...low +2 LA, but +2 LA nonetheless. To make it +1 LA, add some mitigating factors. Certainly Light Blindness, I would think. Even then, it still looks an awfully lot like the drow...
Neutronium_Dragon 03-13-07, 09:36 PM	+1 LA is fine. SR is nice, yes, but the other traits aren't particularly amazing. I don't consider the "See In Darkness" trait to be all that significant, really. Okay, this allows you to ignore what, two or three uncommon spells which create one type of fairly readily countered effect? Yes, it's nice, but unless you're fighting Darkness-happy drow all the time, it's rarely going to have much gameplay impact. If it allowed you to ignore all impediments to vision then I could see getting a bit more excited about it, but it doesn't.
runestar 03-13-07, 09:39 PM	It is a bit too weak. A precedent is the hagspawn in unapproachable east, which at LA+2, grants +2str/con, -2cha, NA+2, sr11+class lvs. Think you can safely give it another +2 con and still keep it within the LA+2 safe range.:)
olshanski_home 03-14-07, 02:02 PM	Note that my version of "see in darkness" includes the qualifier "see in MAGICAL darkness". Not unlimited darvision like devils have. Darkvision extends to 120 feet, and if anywhere within that area is magical darkness, it can be seen as well. Since the jury is out, I think I am going to allow it as LA+1 yet. I've found that SR is often more of a hinderance than a help when you have a very cooperative party. I strictly enforce requiring a standard action to drop SR. It sucks to be you when the party wizard needs to do an emergency dimension door, but your SR leaves you behind as the rest of your party vanishes. Regarding comparisons to drow: Is access to DC16 knock-out poison more or less useful than seeing in magical darkness? Or is the poison use not considered a factor in Drow LA?
Sleepwalker13666 03-14-07, 02:18 PM	Regarding comparisons to drow: Is access to DC16 knock-out poison more or less useful than seeing in magical darkness? Or is the poison use not considered a factor in Drow LA? The poison isn't because anyone can buy it, drow do not have an unlimited supply. However you race seems fine as a +1 It's not as powerful as a whisper gnome which somehow skated by without a level adj.
Witch 03-14-07, 02:25 PM	Note that my version of "see in darkness" includes the qualifier "see in MAGICAL darkness". Not unlimited darvision like devils have. Darkvision extends to 120 feet, and if anywhere within that area is magical darkness, it can be seen as well. Then please give it another name - the name you've given it causes confusion.
olshanski_home 03-14-07, 02:36 PM	Which: Thank you for considering the LA of this race. In my defense, there are plenty of abilities in the core rules in which an identically named ability has different effects: Madness (Ex): Derro use their Charisma modifier on Will saves instead of their Wisdom modifier, and have immunity to confusion and insanity effects. A derro cannot be restored to sanity by any means short of a miracle or wish spell. *The racial madness of the derro provides a +6 bonus to their Charisma scores and a –6 penalty to their Wisdom scores. A derro restored to sanity gains 6 points of Wisdom and loses 6 points of Charisma. Madness (Su): Anyone targeting an allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic ability makes direct contact with its tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage. Heat (Ex): An efreeti’s red-hot body deals 1d6 points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling. Heat (Ex): An enraged remorhaz generates heat so intense that anything touching its body takes 8d6 points of fire damage. Creatures striking a remorhaz with natural attacks or unarmed attacks are subject to this damage, but creatures striking with melee weapons do not take damage from the remorhaz’s heat. This heat can melt or char weapons; any weapon that strikes a remorhaz is allowed a DC 18 Fortitude save to avoid destruction. The save DC is Constitution-based. Skills: Heat (Ex): A salamander generates so much heat that its mere touch deals additional fire damage. Salamanders’ metallic weapons also conduct this heat. I'll modify the original post to say "See in Magical darkness" so as to avoid confusion in the future.
YabaTheWhat 03-14-07, 03:16 PM	I am creating a race: +2 Strength [4 FP] Darkvision out to 120 feet. [4 FP] Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels. [31 FP] See in Magical Darkness (Su): See perfectly in magical darkness, even that created by a deeper darkness spell, out to the range of its darkvision. (The effect is as if there was no magical darkness at all, thus magical darkness underground 200 feet away is not visible, since it falls outside of the 120 foot darkvision) [4 FP (see below)] Does this look like an LA+1 race? Total = 43 FP, LA+1 overpowered. Because the race already has darkvision, the immunity to magical darkness is, in effect, immunity to two or three spells, and is similar in power to (though slightly better than) Elven sleep immunity. Still, with SR that starts at 12 and climbs steadily, plus the strength bonus and darkness vision, it's definitely very potent even at LA+1.
runestar 03-14-07, 10:13 PM	It sucks to be you when the party wizard needs to do an emergency dimension door, but your SR leaves you behind as the rest of your party vanishes. I don't think dimension door allows sr, nor does teleport. :)
olshanski_home 03-15-07, 09:52 AM	I don't think dimension door allows sr, nor does teleport. :) My bad. How about the old cure critical wounds?
olshanski_home 03-16-07, 05:33 PM	Total = 43 FP, LA+1 overpowered. Because the race already has darkvision, the immunity to magical darkness is, in effect, immunity to two or three spells, and is similar in power to (though slightly better than) Elven sleep immunity. Still, with SR that starts at 12 and climbs steadily, plus the strength bonus and darkness vision, it's definitely very potent even at LA+1. After consulting the charts, I'll knock down SR 1 or 2 steps. This should put it safely at the 37-40, which seems well within the LA+1 range. Even at 43 it doesn't appear to be much more overpowered than a dwarf at LA+0. This isn't absolutley ridiculous like the whisper gnome.