LA and 1st level [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA and 1st level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Orenmir
08-09-07, 06:21 PM Is there a way to play a level-adjusted race at first level? I know the knee-jerk answer is "no"... If forced to, what kinds of suggestions would you have to make a race with LA +2 play at first level (balanced)?
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-09-07, 06:28 PM By the rules, no there is not.

The only houserule option I've ever seen for playing LA races at level 1 that I actually liked, was that each LA was treated as a negative level that doesn't count toward death, and that can't go away by any means but earning a level of experience toward removing it.
A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

* -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
* -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
* -5 hit points.
* -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
* If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.
So your LA +2 creature would have -2 to all skill checks and ability checks, -2 to all attack rolls and saving throws, be treated as level -1 for level-related checks, be missing 10 max hp, and be missing 2 of his best spells (if applicable).

Harsh, sure, but those are the breaks.
Khedron
08-10-07, 09:28 AM You can always create a monstrous class, so you don't get all the abilities of the race at first level. For your +2 LA race (assuming it has 1 racial HD), you could make a 3 level class over the course of which you get the racial abilities. However, if your race only has 1 racial HD, you won't be dropping it for a class level like you normally would.
strenoth
08-10-07, 09:56 AM or if you wanted to be very simple, set XPto zero, and then the character doesn't get to go up any levels until it has enough XP to cover all its LA
Duelpersonality
08-10-07, 11:23 AM There are listings (I believe in the Player's Guide to Faerun) for playing more powerful races at level 1. If the race you're looking for isn't in there, it might be a good basis to work from to figure out how to get the race you're looking for.
BugHunter
08-10-07, 11:46 AM The Drow of the Underdark book has the Drow racial class showing how to give the drow their abilities over levels. You can use this as sample to make one for the race being played.
1 ton ghost
08-10-07, 12:32 PM just limit the extra abilities i guess.
i guess the neg. level adjustments might seem the most simple means too. nice call, that.
there are "lesser" versions thereof too. someone mentioned Player's Guide to Faerun, covers most of the planetouched/drow/etc., in the back.

easy peesy japanessy
Orenmir
08-10-07, 12:35 PM All great suggestions -- thanks.

The race I have in mind is a half stone giant. I basically took the MM template for a stone giant as a character and cut all the stat adjustments in half (plus a little more reducing to balance out the large size), including LA down to +2.

I like the idea of giving the character the adjustments over time (or levels). He could start as an adolescent approaching maturity. At level 1 - no adjustments whatsoever. At level 2 (as he's finishing growing) he'll gain half the adjustments and LA +1 (but remaining at class level 1 = ECL 2). Then at 3rd level, he'll be mature with all the adjustments, LA +2, remaining at class level 1, and ECL 3.

Does this sound fair and balanced?
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-10-07, 06:31 PM No. Stone giants come with 14 racial hitdice as well, and those are there to mitigate a much higher LA. You can't just drop the hitdice, chop the racial adjustments in half, halve the LA and call it good.
Orenmir
08-10-07, 08:51 PM No. Stone giants come with 14 racial hitdice as well, and those are there to mitigate a much higher LA. You can't just drop the hitdice, chop the racial adjustments in half, halve the LA and call it good.

Is it impossible to take a template and reduce it by half? It's not uncommon to play a half-*any race here*. Just because the half stone giant template doesn't exist doesn't mean I can't create one that's balanced.

So, what would you do to make it work?
Cadaver237
08-10-07, 10:27 PM Wait, you can't have a level one character who has a level adjustment? Then how come the monster manual glossery defines LA with "1st-level drow wizard is the equivalent of a 3rd-level character." Does that not imply that you CAN have a level one, "level adjusted" character? If i am indeed mistaken, excuse me for my ignorace.
BugHunter
08-10-07, 11:16 PM Wait, you can't have a level one character who has a level adjustment? Then how come the monster manual glossery defines LA with "1st-level drow wizard is the equivalent of a 3rd-level character." Does that not imply that you CAN have a level one, "level adjusted" character? If i am indeed mistaken, excuse me for my ignorace.

A 1st level drow wizard would fit in to a party of 3rd level characters because his effective character level is 3rd. But in a party with an effective character level of 1st, the wizard would be more powerful due to his racial abilities. To allow a 1st level drow wizard to be played in a party of 1st level characters three options were done.

1. & 2. In the Players Guide to Faerun on page 190 suggest taking a negative level adjustment for each +1 LA or use lesser versions of races.

3. In Drow of the Underdark & Savage Species (might also be in other books) are Racial Classes this allows the character to slowly gain all of the abilities of his race.

Of course the DM will make the call on what is allowed and what isn't.
The.Vortex
08-11-07, 06:23 AM To allow a 1st level drow wizard to be played in a party of 1st level characters three options were done.

1. & 2. In the Players Guide to Faerun on page 190 suggest taking a negative level for each +1 LA or use lesser versions of races.

OK, a Level 1 Wizard with two negative levels?

Lets do the math:

Max HP at first Level: 4

Max Con for a Drwo: 16, thats +3, for a total of 7 Points..

Substract 2 negative levels and you have: -3 HP.. not REALLY an option :(

But the Drow Racial Progression works fine and can be found online as well :)
Gray Mouser
08-11-07, 10:51 AM The PGtF doesn't actually say to take a negative level for each point of LA, it shows a system that is very similiar to having a negative level but doesn't involve the loss of HP. It's basically -1 on all d20 rolls, -1 on spell DCs, and -1 on all racial AC bonuses. I allowed a player of mine to use this system (he wanted to play a half-ogre) and it worked very well. Once the party became 3rd level, he simply became a 1st level character with no penalties. Of course this system is for races with a LA but no racial HD, which seems to be the OP's problem.
TiwazTyrsfist
08-11-07, 11:52 AM So, a +2 LA is hard to do.

If you took a +1 LA race, Like the Half-Ogre from Savage Species, I'd let you take 1 level of an appropriate NPC class, then switch it out for a PC level when you hit 1000xp.

Take 1 level of commoner, and one permanant Negative level (as discussed above). At 1000xp, remove the negative level. At 3000xp, swap the commoner level for a pc class level. Progress as appropriate from there.
Oh, and on the hit points, even with the -5hp, set your hp no lower than 3. This makes you squishy, but none of this dying by stubbed toe level stuff.
zorgling25
08-11-07, 02:46 PM Is it impossible to take a template and reduce it by half? It's not uncommon to play a half-*any race here*. Just because the half stone giant template doesn't exist doesn't mean I can't create one that's balanced.

Even with that, you're still forgetting about the 14 monstrous humanoid hit dice that a stone giant has. Halving that, you still get 7 racial hit dice.

If you need someone to play a giant-type character, use the Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny. Its much easier to balance into a game.
Board_Rider
08-11-07, 03:12 PM The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting also has a experience table for LA adjusted classes. I believe it shows up to +2 but can be used for higher LA adjusted races with some math.
Orenmir
08-11-07, 05:55 PM Even with that, you're still forgetting about the 14 monstrous humanoid hit dice that a stone giant has. Halving that, you still get 7 racial hit dice.

I think there's something very basic about hit dice that I'm misunderstanding. Aren't hit dice sort of like levels (almost)? So the template is more or less for a 14th level character. To cut it down to 1st level, the only stats that would suffer a reduction would be a 3 ability points (plus eliminate all the feats and skill points).

Let me know what I'm missing.

If one were to start playing a full stone giant as a character at 1st level (ECL 5), does he get HPs, feats, and skill ranks as if he were 14th level? How does that work?

Thanks a bunch.
Seldriss
08-11-07, 06:25 PM I understand you want to play a half giant, Orenmir, but the level adjustment and the Hit Dice of the giant are too much for a 1st level character, even cut in half.
The fact is that high LA characters are ok to bring in a campaign at mid or high level, where their LA and Hit Dice can "replace" levels.

As an option, you can take the Giant bloodline, from Unearthed Arcana.
Whatever your class is, you could alternate class levels with bloodline levels, uncovering your giant heritage step by step.

As an other option, you can check the Stone Giant racial levels in Savage Species, so you can start him form 1st level, without any trouble with LA or hit dice.

Anyway, before doing anything, talk with your DM. He is the one who will have the final word on your character, so work with him. Propose him your concept, and not only a rigid build, propose him alternatives. He will pick whatever seems appropriate to his campaign and his game style.
Tectorman
08-11-07, 06:50 PM All I've got is for a race with an LA of +1.

1st Method: (Example: Catfolk) Treat them as a sample character of that race with one of their racial HD (you know, the one that goes away when they gain their first level in a character class).

2nd Method: (Example: Catfolk (eventual class: Rogue)) Give them one level of an NPC class of equivalent purpose (in this case, Expert). When they level up, leave the HD (and hp) as is, add however many skill points are remaining, the BAB and saves stay the same (I'm assuming that Experts only have good Reflex saves here, this is off the top of my head), and add the class features.
NPC Classes are intended to be weaker than full-fledged PC classes, so playing a Catfolk Expert 1 at 1st level and a Catfolk Rogue 1 at 2nd level shouldn't be game-breaking.
Chris_Moore
08-12-07, 09:27 AM 15 point standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10): +3 LA race
15 point non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8): +2 LA race
25 point elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8): +1 LA race
28 point buy: +0 LA race
Gray Mouser
08-12-07, 12:31 PM Orenmir I think maybe that you need to understand the purpose of racial HD. They exist because among such powerful races (such as giants) adults are so powerful that they are not even remotely close to being as weak as a 1st level PC. The straight up NPC/monster stone giant you see in the Monster Manual is basically, as far as CLASS goes, a 0 level character. Everything they have, their stats, hit points, base attack, special attacks/abilities, is simply a result of heredity and their upbringing, and is something every stone giant who comes of age has. You can't just substitute class levels. Do you see how odd it would be to have a fully grown adult stone giant who has less than 20 HP, simply because he is a low-level PC? It flies in the face of the giant's sheer physical mass, which is not something it learned. Hope this helps a little.
Maybe you should figure out a way for the PC to start as a child? He/she could be Medium and the equivalent of a 5 or 6 year old human, and then "grow into" him/herself as the party gains levels? I'm not sure that the player would enjoy not actually having a CLASS until everyone else is 15th level or so, but it sure would be fun to roleplay a little kid giant...
Orenmir
08-12-07, 01:08 PM Orenmir I think maybe that you need to understand the purpose of racial HD. They exist because among such powerful races (such as giants) adults are so powerful that they are not even remotely close to being as weak as a 1st level PC. The straight up NPC/monster stone giant you see in the Monster Manual is basically, as far as CLASS goes, a 0 level character. Everything they have, their stats, hit points, base attack, special attacks/abilities, is simply a result of heredity and their upbringing, and is something every stone giant who comes of age has. You can't just substitute class levels. Do you see how odd it would be to have a fully grown adult stone giant who has less than 20 HP, simply because he is a low-level PC? It flies in the face of the giant's sheer physical mass, which is not something it learned. Hope this helps a little.
Maybe you should figure out a way for the PC to start as a child? He/she could be Medium and the equivalent of a 5 or 6 year old human, and then "grow into" him/herself as the party gains levels? I'm not sure that the player would enjoy not actually having a CLASS until everyone else is 15th level or so, but it sure would be fun to roleplay a little kid giant...

Thank you so much. That actually helps a lot.

One last clarification, please. From what you explained, how can one even use the existing "stone giant as a character" template in the MM? From how I read the MM, one could play a stone giant at first level (ECL 5).

1st level charatcter, LA +4, ECL 5, slap on all the adjustments and abilities... How do the racial hit dice play out?

I guess I'm trying to figure out how that template works.
Silvercrys
08-12-07, 02:00 PM You add all of the Racial Hit Dice to the ECL. That's the total ECL. It's not really a template, it's a race, like Human or Elf.

Your 1st level Stone Giant character has an ECL of 19. 14 Racial HD + LA 4 + 1 level. He gets HP, Feats, Skills as defined in the "Stone Giants as Characters" entry in the Monster Manual.

There may be a Stone Giant class progression, kind of like Gray Mouser was saying, in Savage Species (3.0, I know, but still).
Nifft
08-12-07, 02:37 PM ECL ("effective character level") = LA + HD.

HD = Racial HD (often 0) + class HD.

You must account for your racial HD and LA before you gain any class levels.

Cheers, -- N
Orenmir
08-13-07, 10:55 AM 15 point standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10): +3 LA race
15 point non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8): +2 LA race
25 point elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8): +1 LA race
28 point buy: +0 LA race

Somebody please point me towards the book that will explain this gibberish. -thanks

You add all of the Racial Hit Dice to the ECL. That's the total ECL.

ECL ("effective character level") = LA + HD.

HD = Racial HD (often 0) + class HD.

You must account for your racial HD and LA before you gain any class levels.

Cheers, -- N

This completely explains what I was misunderstanding. Thank you. It sounds like I need to use a proper template/primer like Half-Ogre or Goliath to create my half stone giant. Maybe I'll work on that and post a seperate thread.

Thanks again.
MarkHall
08-13-07, 06:58 PM One thing I do with LA +1 races is to allow them to take a single level of an NPC class, if we're starting at 1st level. So, you can play an Aasimar Aristocrat, or a Gray Orc Adept. I don't have NPC classes stack with PC classes for spellcasting levels, nor do they count for multiclassing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 08-09-07, 06:21 PM	Is there a way to play a level-adjusted race at first level? I know the knee-jerk answer is "no"... If forced to, what kinds of suggestions would you have to make a race with LA +2 play at first level (balanced)?
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-09-07, 06:28 PM	By the rules, no there is not. The only houserule option I've ever seen for playing LA races at level 1 that I actually liked, was that each LA was treated as a negative level that doesn't count toward death, and that can't go away by any means but earning a level of experience toward removing it. A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained: * -1 on all skill checks and ability checks. * -1 on attack rolls and saving throws. * -5 hit points. * -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level). * If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level. So your LA +2 creature would have -2 to all skill checks and ability checks, -2 to all attack rolls and saving throws, be treated as level -1 for level-related checks, be missing 10 max hp, and be missing 2 of his best spells (if applicable). Harsh, sure, but those are the breaks.
Khedron 08-10-07, 09:28 AM	You can always create a monstrous class, so you don't get all the abilities of the race at first level. For your +2 LA race (assuming it has 1 racial HD), you could make a 3 level class over the course of which you get the racial abilities. However, if your race only has 1 racial HD, you won't be dropping it for a class level like you normally would.
strenoth 08-10-07, 09:56 AM	or if you wanted to be very simple, set XPto zero, and then the character doesn't get to go up any levels until it has enough XP to cover all its LA
Duelpersonality 08-10-07, 11:23 AM	There are listings (I believe in the Player's Guide to Faerun) for playing more powerful races at level 1. If the race you're looking for isn't in there, it might be a good basis to work from to figure out how to get the race you're looking for.
BugHunter 08-10-07, 11:46 AM	The Drow of the Underdark book has the Drow racial class showing how to give the drow their abilities over levels. You can use this as sample to make one for the race being played.
1 ton ghost 08-10-07, 12:32 PM	just limit the extra abilities i guess. i guess the neg. level adjustments might seem the most simple means too. nice call, that. there are "lesser" versions thereof too. someone mentioned Player's Guide to Faerun, covers most of the planetouched/drow/etc., in the back. easy peesy japanessy
Orenmir 08-10-07, 12:35 PM	All great suggestions -- thanks. The race I have in mind is a half stone giant. I basically took the MM template for a stone giant as a character and cut all the stat adjustments in half (plus a little more reducing to balance out the large size), including LA down to +2. I like the idea of giving the character the adjustments over time (or levels). He could start as an adolescent approaching maturity. At level 1 - no adjustments whatsoever. At level 2 (as he's finishing growing) he'll gain half the adjustments and LA +1 (but remaining at class level 1 = ECL 2). Then at 3rd level, he'll be mature with all the adjustments, LA +2, remaining at class level 1, and ECL 3. Does this sound fair and balanced?
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-10-07, 06:31 PM	No. Stone giants come with 14 racial hitdice as well, and those are there to mitigate a much higher LA. You can't just drop the hitdice, chop the racial adjustments in half, halve the LA and call it good.
Orenmir 08-10-07, 08:51 PM	No. Stone giants come with 14 racial hitdice as well, and those are there to mitigate a much higher LA. You can't just drop the hitdice, chop the racial adjustments in half, halve the LA and call it good. Is it impossible to take a template and reduce it by half? It's not uncommon to play a half-any race here. Just because the half stone giant template doesn't exist doesn't mean I can't create one that's balanced. So, what would you do to make it work?
Cadaver237 08-10-07, 10:27 PM	Wait, you can't have a level one character who has a level adjustment? Then how come the monster manual glossery defines LA with "1st-level drow wizard is the equivalent of a 3rd-level character." Does that not imply that you CAN have a level one, "level adjusted" character? If i am indeed mistaken, excuse me for my ignorace.
BugHunter 08-10-07, 11:16 PM	Wait, you can't have a level one character who has a level adjustment? Then how come the monster manual glossery defines LA with "1st-level drow wizard is the equivalent of a 3rd-level character." Does that not imply that you CAN have a level one, "level adjusted" character? If i am indeed mistaken, excuse me for my ignorace. A 1st level drow wizard would fit in to a party of 3rd level characters because his effective character level is 3rd. But in a party with an effective character level of 1st, the wizard would be more powerful due to his racial abilities. To allow a 1st level drow wizard to be played in a party of 1st level characters three options were done. 1. & 2. In the Players Guide to Faerun on page 190 suggest taking a negative level adjustment for each +1 LA or use lesser versions of races. 3. In Drow of the Underdark & Savage Species (might also be in other books) are Racial Classes this allows the character to slowly gain all of the abilities of his race. Of course the DM will make the call on what is allowed and what isn't.
The.Vortex 08-11-07, 06:23 AM	To allow a 1st level drow wizard to be played in a party of 1st level characters three options were done. 1. & 2. In the Players Guide to Faerun on page 190 suggest taking a negative level for each +1 LA or use lesser versions of races. OK, a Level 1 Wizard with two negative levels? Lets do the math: Max HP at first Level: 4 Max Con for a Drwo: 16, thats +3, for a total of 7 Points.. Substract 2 negative levels and you have: -3 HP.. not REALLY an option :( But the Drow Racial Progression works fine and can be found online as well :)
Gray Mouser 08-11-07, 10:51 AM	The PGtF doesn't actually say to take a negative level for each point of LA, it shows a system that is very similiar to having a negative level but doesn't involve the loss of HP. It's basically -1 on all d20 rolls, -1 on spell DCs, and -1 on all racial AC bonuses. I allowed a player of mine to use this system (he wanted to play a half-ogre) and it worked very well. Once the party became 3rd level, he simply became a 1st level character with no penalties. Of course this system is for races with a LA but no racial HD, which seems to be the OP's problem.
TiwazTyrsfist 08-11-07, 11:52 AM	So, a +2 LA is hard to do. If you took a +1 LA race, Like the Half-Ogre from Savage Species, I'd let you take 1 level of an appropriate NPC class, then switch it out for a PC level when you hit 1000xp. Take 1 level of commoner, and one permanant Negative level (as discussed above). At 1000xp, remove the negative level. At 3000xp, swap the commoner level for a pc class level. Progress as appropriate from there. Oh, and on the hit points, even with the -5hp, set your hp no lower than 3. This makes you squishy, but none of this dying by stubbed toe level stuff.
zorgling25 08-11-07, 02:46 PM	Is it impossible to take a template and reduce it by half? It's not uncommon to play a half-any race here. Just because the half stone giant template doesn't exist doesn't mean I can't create one that's balanced. Even with that, you're still forgetting about the 14 monstrous humanoid hit dice that a stone giant has. Halving that, you still get 7 racial hit dice. If you need someone to play a giant-type character, use the Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny. Its much easier to balance into a game.
Board_Rider 08-11-07, 03:12 PM	The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting also has a experience table for LA adjusted classes. I believe it shows up to +2 but can be used for higher LA adjusted races with some math.
Orenmir 08-11-07, 05:55 PM	Even with that, you're still forgetting about the 14 monstrous humanoid hit dice that a stone giant has. Halving that, you still get 7 racial hit dice. I think there's something very basic about hit dice that I'm misunderstanding. Aren't hit dice sort of like levels (almost)? So the template is more or less for a 14th level character. To cut it down to 1st level, the only stats that would suffer a reduction would be a 3 ability points (plus eliminate all the feats and skill points). Let me know what I'm missing. If one were to start playing a full stone giant as a character at 1st level (ECL 5), does he get HPs, feats, and skill ranks as if he were 14th level? How does that work? Thanks a bunch.
Seldriss 08-11-07, 06:25 PM	I understand you want to play a half giant, Orenmir, but the level adjustment and the Hit Dice of the giant are too much for a 1st level character, even cut in half. The fact is that high LA characters are ok to bring in a campaign at mid or high level, where their LA and Hit Dice can "replace" levels. As an option, you can take the Giant bloodline, from Unearthed Arcana. Whatever your class is, you could alternate class levels with bloodline levels, uncovering your giant heritage step by step. As an other option, you can check the Stone Giant racial levels in Savage Species, so you can start him form 1st level, without any trouble with LA or hit dice. Anyway, before doing anything, talk with your DM. He is the one who will have the final word on your character, so work with him. Propose him your concept, and not only a rigid build, propose him alternatives. He will pick whatever seems appropriate to his campaign and his game style.
Tectorman 08-11-07, 06:50 PM	All I've got is for a race with an LA of +1. 1st Method: (Example: Catfolk) Treat them as a sample character of that race with one of their racial HD (you know, the one that goes away when they gain their first level in a character class). 2nd Method: (Example: Catfolk (eventual class: Rogue)) Give them one level of an NPC class of equivalent purpose (in this case, Expert). When they level up, leave the HD (and hp) as is, add however many skill points are remaining, the BAB and saves stay the same (I'm assuming that Experts only have good Reflex saves here, this is off the top of my head), and add the class features. NPC Classes are intended to be weaker than full-fledged PC classes, so playing a Catfolk Expert 1 at 1st level and a Catfolk Rogue 1 at 2nd level shouldn't be game-breaking.
Chris_Moore 08-12-07, 09:27 AM	15 point standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10): +3 LA race 15 point non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8): +2 LA race 25 point elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8): +1 LA race 28 point buy: +0 LA race
Gray Mouser 08-12-07, 12:31 PM	Orenmir I think maybe that you need to understand the purpose of racial HD. They exist because among such powerful races (such as giants) adults are so powerful that they are not even remotely close to being as weak as a 1st level PC. The straight up NPC/monster stone giant you see in the Monster Manual is basically, as far as CLASS goes, a 0 level character. Everything they have, their stats, hit points, base attack, special attacks/abilities, is simply a result of heredity and their upbringing, and is something every stone giant who comes of age has. You can't just substitute class levels. Do you see how odd it would be to have a fully grown adult stone giant who has less than 20 HP, simply because he is a low-level PC? It flies in the face of the giant's sheer physical mass, which is not something it learned. Hope this helps a little. Maybe you should figure out a way for the PC to start as a child? He/she could be Medium and the equivalent of a 5 or 6 year old human, and then "grow into" him/herself as the party gains levels? I'm not sure that the player would enjoy not actually having a CLASS until everyone else is 15th level or so, but it sure would be fun to roleplay a little kid giant...
Orenmir 08-12-07, 01:08 PM	Orenmir I think maybe that you need to understand the purpose of racial HD. They exist because among such powerful races (such as giants) adults are so powerful that they are not even remotely close to being as weak as a 1st level PC. The straight up NPC/monster stone giant you see in the Monster Manual is basically, as far as CLASS goes, a 0 level character. Everything they have, their stats, hit points, base attack, special attacks/abilities, is simply a result of heredity and their upbringing, and is something every stone giant who comes of age has. You can't just substitute class levels. Do you see how odd it would be to have a fully grown adult stone giant who has less than 20 HP, simply because he is a low-level PC? It flies in the face of the giant's sheer physical mass, which is not something it learned. Hope this helps a little. Maybe you should figure out a way for the PC to start as a child? He/she could be Medium and the equivalent of a 5 or 6 year old human, and then "grow into" him/herself as the party gains levels? I'm not sure that the player would enjoy not actually having a CLASS until everyone else is 15th level or so, but it sure would be fun to roleplay a little kid giant... Thank you so much. That actually helps a lot. One last clarification, please. From what you explained, how can one even use the existing "stone giant as a character" template in the MM? From how I read the MM, one could play a stone giant at first level (ECL 5). 1st level charatcter, LA +4, ECL 5, slap on all the adjustments and abilities... How do the racial hit dice play out? I guess I'm trying to figure out how that template works.
Silvercrys 08-12-07, 02:00 PM	You add all of the Racial Hit Dice to the ECL. That's the total ECL. It's not really a template, it's a race, like Human or Elf. Your 1st level Stone Giant character has an ECL of 19. 14 Racial HD + LA 4 + 1 level. He gets HP, Feats, Skills as defined in the "Stone Giants as Characters" entry in the Monster Manual. There may be a Stone Giant class progression, kind of like Gray Mouser was saying, in Savage Species (3.0, I know, but still).
Nifft 08-12-07, 02:37 PM	ECL ("effective character level") = LA + HD. HD = Racial HD (often 0) + class HD. You must account for your racial HD and LA before you gain any class levels. Cheers, -- N
Orenmir 08-13-07, 10:55 AM	15 point standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10): +3 LA race 15 point non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8): +2 LA race 25 point elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8): +1 LA race 28 point buy: +0 LA race Somebody please point me towards the book that will explain this gibberish. -thanks You add all of the Racial Hit Dice to the ECL. That's the total ECL. ECL ("effective character level") = LA + HD. HD = Racial HD (often 0) + class HD. You must account for your racial HD and LA before you gain any class levels. Cheers, -- N This completely explains what I was misunderstanding. Thank you. It sounds like I need to use a proper template/primer like Half-Ogre or Goliath to create my half stone giant. Maybe I'll work on that and post a seperate thread. Thanks again.
MarkHall 08-13-07, 06:58 PM	One thing I do with LA +1 races is to allow them to take a single level of an NPC class, if we're starting at 1st level. So, you can play an Aasimar Aristocrat, or a Gray Orc Adept. I don't have NPC classes stack with PC classes for spellcasting levels, nor do they count for multiclassing.