LA for Fast Healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA for Fast Healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JoshuaWilhoyte
05-04-07, 11:05 AM Are there rules for determining what kind of level adjustment certain things are worth. For example, if I wanted to play a human who was "divinely touched" or something, shown by having Fast Healing 1, what kind of level adjustment would that be? Just adding Fast Healing 1 to a normal Race.
Majick
05-04-07, 11:07 AM i would say a +1 LA

to me that is adequate payment, as fast healing is VERY powerful
Part-Human2
05-04-07, 11:47 AM Fast Healing does save a lot of healing post-combat. Fasting Healing 1 isn't worth LA +1 by itself so I'd put a few extras on top of it, like +2 to an ability score, a racial skill bonus, maybe even a minor SLA.
BW0222
05-04-07, 01:32 PM Folks,

In combat, it means that you automatically stablize. That itself is powerful. You also become concious given time. Both are incredibly powerful.

LA is not based solely on combat. Fast healing 1 may not be that useful in typical combats, but it is amazingly powerful outside of combat.

Fast healing 1, means that you would heal 1hp/round, 10hp/minute, or 600hp/hour. It means the cleric doesn't have to heal you outside of combat -- by the time you search the room you are at full hit points. Damaging traps become useless, rock slides are annoyances if they don't kill you, environmental damage is nothing to worry about, etc. You are no longer limited to the normal three to four combats per day -- you could have one every hour without breaking a sweat. You could use hit and run tactics and defeat creatures well beyond what normal groups could.

IMO, LA should be +2. Played intellently you could do things no one else could.
Part-Human2
05-04-07, 04:50 PM Folks,

In combat, it means that you automatically stablize. That itself is powerful. You also become concious given time. Both are incredibly powerful.
...
IMO, LA should be +2. Played intellently you could do things no one else could.

No DM wants a PC to die from bleeding after a fight anyway. Besides official examples don't peg Fast Healing as great a benefit as you do.

See the Lists of Stuff thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=662842) for dozens of ways to achieve fast healing.
Zuractai
05-04-07, 06:25 PM Personaly I think it should be worth about a LA +1 but shouldn't be allowed for anything that doesn't have a LA of at least +3 total, or an equal amount of racial hitdice. There is a reason there are no low LA races that have certain powerful abilites, they would be overpowered. Regeneration 1 as an example might only be worth a LA of + 1.5-2 but if you could just take it for a +2 LA on a base race it would be overpowered. Sure you have 2 fewer hit dice, but you don't realy suffer from the lost HP. SR, full flying, and full alterself at will, are all other examples of things you don't find on a LA +1 race. Are they all worth a full +1 LA? Probaly not, but its only balanced on a higher LA race.
Dnjscott
05-04-07, 06:42 PM It's worth about +1 LA, I think. There are plenty of +2 LAs with other features and I believe at least 1 or 2 +1LAs with it.

BUt, you should probably scan through here and do a search for fast healing and compare it yourself:

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf
NineInchNall
05-04-07, 07:09 PM It's not worth a level adjustment on its own. It makes the character's drain on party resources less, which makes everyone else function better. It does not, however, provide significant benefit during combat, or indeed, during just about any sort of encounter. Fast healing saves your character's bacon at low levels, but by level four its combat utility is minimal. That's why it's fine at LA +0: its benefit at low levels is visible, and beyond that only increases party effectiveness.

Level adjustments come in when the character is outshining the rest of his party, which fast healing will not really let him do.
Holy_Beholder
05-04-07, 07:14 PM It depends on what his fast healing is. Fast healing 1 wouldn't be worth much, fast healing one per level would be. It probably should scale. And personally, I think fast healing 1 is worth a lot at low levels.
Argaud
05-04-07, 07:47 PM It is not worth much, and certainly not a full LA. Healing outside combat is very cheap, a wand of CLW costs 750 gold and has 50 charges. Inside combat 1hp/round is very little, particularly once the character has a few levels.

Automatic stabilization is nice to have at low level, but considering a 0-level spell can stabilize, it is not that awesome, and at high level most times you go from 50 hp to -50 in one round, so it does not matter.

The fast healing is going to be quite noticeable at levels 1-2, but afterwards it is going to be worth mentioning only rarely during the games.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-04-07, 09:28 PM It's nice, but not worth all that much by itself unless you have the scaling in there (which it doesn't sound like you will). Frankly, it's probably viable as a 1st-level-only feat, assuming that it's just Fast Healing 1. It's useful primarily as a resource mitigation technique; automatic stabilizing isn't much to write home about, since the rest of your party will take care of that anyway unless there's a TPK.
Nadaka
05-04-07, 11:43 PM LA? no. But it would make nice feat if it had 1 or 2 prerequisites.

Over the course if the average battle it will grant between 3 and 6 extra hp, and save on between combat healing. Considering how cheap out of combat healing really is, its not that bad.
G_Mancer
05-04-07, 11:53 PM Folks,

In combat, it means that you automatically stablize. That itself is powerful. You also become concious given time. Both are incredibly powerful.

LA is not based solely on combat. Fast healing 1 may not be that useful in typical combats, but it is amazingly powerful outside of combat.

Fast healing 1, means that you would heal 1hp/round, 10hp/minute, or 600hp/hour. It means the cleric doesn't have to heal you outside of combat -- by the time you search the room you are at full hit points. Damaging traps become useless, rock slides are annoyances if they don't kill you, environmental damage is nothing to worry about, etc. You are no longer limited to the normal three to four combats per day -- you could have one every hour without breaking a sweat. You could use hit and run tactics and defeat creatures well beyond what normal groups could.

IMO, LA should be +2. Played intellently you could do things no one else could.

acually, fast healing doesn't work when natural healing doesn't, as it does not when you are in the negatives. i'd give you the link to my huge post/argument where i was on the flip side, but i cant remember ther link.

*Edited* Heres the link. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=799702

Feral template gives imp-grab, dark vision 60ft, fast healing 2, 2 claws with 1d8(med) all for a +1 template. fast healing may mean your char wil lalmost never need healing outside of combat, but all that other stuff Feral gives you... lets me believe you can have more.

you cld get rid of the -2 dex and - 4int and balance it by getting rid of claws(and the imp grab) leving just fast healing 2 and dark vision 60 ft, +4 str, +2wis for a +1 template

now that i look back, even fast healing 2 is pretty good. i'd say get rid of +4 str too. you' have +2wisdom and fast healing-2 and darkvision 60ft. EASILY credited to a deity, and it's still a perfect +1 LA
Wharin
05-05-07, 12:52 AM For whats its worth, there was a regional feat (that means 1st level only), either in a FR book or a Dragon magazine (I can't remember which, though i am leaning more towards the Dragon Magazine) that humans could take (provided they were from this certain area), and it gave fast healing. The down side was that you gained light sensitivity, but still.. thats not bad.

Also, I am not sure just how powerful Fast Healing 1 *really* is. Unless your entire party has fast healing, that single duder being fresh is hardly going to break the game... It's not as if he can go out by himself and still live to tell the tale. Fast Healing doesnt save your butt from a CdG. All Fast Healing really means is that there are more healing spells from the cleric to go around.

Now something like Fast Healing 10? OK now we are seeing some actual in combat usage that is now very powerful, but Fast Healing 1? Bah.
adgramaine
05-05-07, 01:10 AM IMO, I'd leave Fast Healing at 1 point each round, with the stipulation that the character must have at least one HP in order for the fast healing to take effect. This is the way it is often worded in the more recent books, after all. Older books (pre 3.5) are a bit ambiguous, and I think this was intended to be the 3.5 fix.

Then give the race the bonus feat Improved Toughness, without requiring the pre-reqs. This gives the race +1 hp/HD.

If the concept is "toughness" and the increased hp/HD doesn't fit your liking, then give them a +1 natural armor bonus (or sacred, or profane... whichever fits the race/alignment in question).
Zuractai
05-05-07, 05:44 PM The LA of feral creature is... I guess I would like to say wrong. I am pretty sure there is no template that has a LA less then the +CR of its template, and feral ranges from +1CR to +4 CR at higher HD. As for it being a feat, there are a couple feats that increase natural healing/day by a small amount, so unless it was a feat with quite a few prereqs, that would seem like an extreamly powerful feat.

Look at the healing granted by the Ring of Regeneration, a 90,000 gp ring. It lets you heal 1hp/level ever hour, or 1 nonlethal damager/level every 5 minutes. And before anyone says it, no the ring does not say this is regeneration, so it doesn't convert normal damage into nonlethal, and it doesn't bring you back from the dead. Sure it will regenerate lost limbs/organs but the only mechanism in the game that involves cutting off limbs is Vorpal, and losing your head is still death when you have the ring on. Unless someone is torturing you, you are not going to be losing limbs and if they are... well they will steal your ring.

Oh, and unless it says it doesn't work unless you have 1hp or more, it does. The only creatures that have fast healing and say that as far as I remember are undead/constructs that die/are destroyed (vampires go into mist, but still sorta destroyed body wise) at 0hp.

All in all I would say if the DM says it is alright Fast healing 1 + some minor bonus would probaly be worth a +1la. Maybe +2 to one maybe 2 stats, but I still think it should only apear on templates/races that have a higher LA.
Part-Human2
05-05-07, 06:18 PM To put it into other terms, the Sithilar Blood Graft (LoM) is fast healing, non-removable, doesn't occupy a body slot, fast healing 2 for 200,000 gp.

Muls (Dragon Magazine 319, 3.5 update of the Dark Sun race) are +1 LA but gains +2 STR, +4 CON, psionic power points, and gain fast healing 1 by level 10 (fast healing 3 by 15).

Of course, Dragon Magazine had the Greyhawk regional feat that provided Regeneration 1! Regeneration for a feat!

The Evolved Undead template (LM) is +1 LA gives +2 STR, +2 CHA, +1 natural armor, fast healing 3 and a random SLA.

The Feral (SS) template is also +1 LA and provides a number of benefits besides just fast healing.

The Combat Vigor feat (PHBII) requires 1 other feat, WIS 13 and provides fast healing while in combat focus (lasting at least 1 min after first successful attack).
DarkRhystar
05-05-07, 06:44 PM The LA of feral creature is... I guess I would like to say wrong. I am pretty sure there is no template that has a LA less then the +CR of its template, and feral ranges from +1CR to +4 CR at higher HD.

Feral is too powerful for its LA.

As for it being a feat, there are a couple feats that increase natural healing/day by a small amount, so unless it was a feat with quite a few prereqs, that would seem like an extreamly powerful feat.

And I'd wager a majority of players don't take those feats as it is. It's one thing to balance one feat against another, but it's wiser to balance one feat against another... that is actually used.

Look at the healing granted by the Ring of Regeneration, a 90,000 gp ring.

Yeah, but the Ring of Regeneration is grossly overpriced for what it does.
Holy_Beholder
05-05-07, 08:48 PM You could just have regeneration 1, fast healing 1, regeneration is beat by(insert damage type here) That would be worth +1 LA
Zuractai
05-05-07, 09:27 PM I will agree that certain things are just blatantly never used, and shouldn't be used to fully judge other things. Ring of regeneration is way over priced, but is a good example of how much such healing powers are generaly valued. Most of the healing feats are sorta bad, but if you had a feat that healed you 1hp/min that you concentrated, it would be realy good. What I could see as a good lower LA fast healing ability would be one that lets you use fast healing 1 for, I don't know 10 rounds/level. Good, but makes taking small amounts of damage eventuly matter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JoshuaWilhoyte 05-04-07, 11:05 AM	Are there rules for determining what kind of level adjustment certain things are worth. For example, if I wanted to play a human who was "divinely touched" or something, shown by having Fast Healing 1, what kind of level adjustment would that be? Just adding Fast Healing 1 to a normal Race.
Majick 05-04-07, 11:07 AM	i would say a +1 LA to me that is adequate payment, as fast healing is VERY powerful
Part-Human2 05-04-07, 11:47 AM	Fast Healing does save a lot of healing post-combat. Fasting Healing 1 isn't worth LA +1 by itself so I'd put a few extras on top of it, like +2 to an ability score, a racial skill bonus, maybe even a minor SLA.
BW0222 05-04-07, 01:32 PM	Folks, In combat, it means that you automatically stablize. That itself is powerful. You also become concious given time. Both are incredibly powerful. LA is not based solely on combat. Fast healing 1 may not be that useful in typical combats, but it is amazingly powerful outside of combat. Fast healing 1, means that you would heal 1hp/round, 10hp/minute, or 600hp/hour. It means the cleric doesn't have to heal you outside of combat -- by the time you search the room you are at full hit points. Damaging traps become useless, rock slides are annoyances if they don't kill you, environmental damage is nothing to worry about, etc. You are no longer limited to the normal three to four combats per day -- you could have one every hour without breaking a sweat. You could use hit and run tactics and defeat creatures well beyond what normal groups could. IMO, LA should be +2. Played intellently you could do things no one else could.
Part-Human2 05-04-07, 04:50 PM	Folks, In combat, it means that you automatically stablize. That itself is powerful. You also become concious given time. Both are incredibly powerful. ... IMO, LA should be +2. Played intellently you could do things no one else could. No DM wants a PC to die from bleeding after a fight anyway. Besides official examples don't peg Fast Healing as great a benefit as you do. See the Lists of Stuff thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=662842) for dozens of ways to achieve fast healing.
Zuractai 05-04-07, 06:25 PM	Personaly I think it should be worth about a LA +1 but shouldn't be allowed for anything that doesn't have a LA of at least +3 total, or an equal amount of racial hitdice. There is a reason there are no low LA races that have certain powerful abilites, they would be overpowered. Regeneration 1 as an example might only be worth a LA of + 1.5-2 but if you could just take it for a +2 LA on a base race it would be overpowered. Sure you have 2 fewer hit dice, but you don't realy suffer from the lost HP. SR, full flying, and full alterself at will, are all other examples of things you don't find on a LA +1 race. Are they all worth a full +1 LA? Probaly not, but its only balanced on a higher LA race.
Dnjscott 05-04-07, 06:42 PM	It's worth about +1 LA, I think. There are plenty of +2 LAs with other features and I believe at least 1 or 2 +1LAs with it. BUt, you should probably scan through here and do a search for fast healing and compare it yourself: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf
NineInchNall 05-04-07, 07:09 PM	It's not worth a level adjustment on its own. It makes the character's drain on party resources less, which makes everyone else function better. It does not, however, provide significant benefit during combat, or indeed, during just about any sort of encounter. Fast healing saves your character's bacon at low levels, but by level four its combat utility is minimal. That's why it's fine at LA +0: its benefit at low levels is visible, and beyond that only increases party effectiveness. Level adjustments come in when the character is outshining the rest of his party, which fast healing will not really let him do.
Holy_Beholder 05-04-07, 07:14 PM	It depends on what his fast healing is. Fast healing 1 wouldn't be worth much, fast healing one per level would be. It probably should scale. And personally, I think fast healing 1 is worth a lot at low levels.
Argaud 05-04-07, 07:47 PM	It is not worth much, and certainly not a full LA. Healing outside combat is very cheap, a wand of CLW costs 750 gold and has 50 charges. Inside combat 1hp/round is very little, particularly once the character has a few levels. Automatic stabilization is nice to have at low level, but considering a 0-level spell can stabilize, it is not that awesome, and at high level most times you go from 50 hp to -50 in one round, so it does not matter. The fast healing is going to be quite noticeable at levels 1-2, but afterwards it is going to be worth mentioning only rarely during the games.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-04-07, 09:28 PM	It's nice, but not worth all that much by itself unless you have the scaling in there (which it doesn't sound like you will). Frankly, it's probably viable as a 1st-level-only feat, assuming that it's just Fast Healing 1. It's useful primarily as a resource mitigation technique; automatic stabilizing isn't much to write home about, since the rest of your party will take care of that anyway unless there's a TPK.
Nadaka 05-04-07, 11:43 PM	LA? no. But it would make nice feat if it had 1 or 2 prerequisites. Over the course if the average battle it will grant between 3 and 6 extra hp, and save on between combat healing. Considering how cheap out of combat healing really is, its not that bad.
G_Mancer 05-04-07, 11:53 PM	Folks, In combat, it means that you automatically stablize. That itself is powerful. You also become concious given time. Both are incredibly powerful. LA is not based solely on combat. Fast healing 1 may not be that useful in typical combats, but it is amazingly powerful outside of combat. Fast healing 1, means that you would heal 1hp/round, 10hp/minute, or 600hp/hour. It means the cleric doesn't have to heal you outside of combat -- by the time you search the room you are at full hit points. Damaging traps become useless, rock slides are annoyances if they don't kill you, environmental damage is nothing to worry about, etc. You are no longer limited to the normal three to four combats per day -- you could have one every hour without breaking a sweat. You could use hit and run tactics and defeat creatures well beyond what normal groups could. IMO, LA should be +2. Played intellently you could do things no one else could. acually, fast healing doesn't work when natural healing doesn't, as it does not when you are in the negatives. i'd give you the link to my huge post/argument where i was on the flip side, but i cant remember ther link. Edited Heres the link. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=799702 Feral template gives imp-grab, dark vision 60ft, fast healing 2, 2 claws with 1d8(med) all for a +1 template. fast healing may mean your char wil lalmost never need healing outside of combat, but all that other stuff Feral gives you... lets me believe you can have more. you cld get rid of the -2 dex and - 4int and balance it by getting rid of claws(and the imp grab) leving just fast healing 2 and dark vision 60 ft, +4 str, +2wis for a +1 template now that i look back, even fast healing 2 is pretty good. i'd say get rid of +4 str too. you' have +2wisdom and fast healing-2 and darkvision 60ft. EASILY credited to a deity, and it's still a perfect +1 LA
Wharin 05-05-07, 12:52 AM	For whats its worth, there was a regional feat (that means 1st level only), either in a FR book or a Dragon magazine (I can't remember which, though i am leaning more towards the Dragon Magazine) that humans could take (provided they were from this certain area), and it gave fast healing. The down side was that you gained light sensitivity, but still.. thats not bad. Also, I am not sure just how powerful Fast Healing 1 really is. Unless your entire party has fast healing, that single duder being fresh is hardly going to break the game... It's not as if he can go out by himself and still live to tell the tale. Fast Healing doesnt save your butt from a CdG. All Fast Healing really means is that there are more healing spells from the cleric to go around. Now something like Fast Healing 10? OK now we are seeing some actual in combat usage that is now very powerful, but Fast Healing 1? Bah.
adgramaine 05-05-07, 01:10 AM	IMO, I'd leave Fast Healing at 1 point each round, with the stipulation that the character must have at least one HP in order for the fast healing to take effect. This is the way it is often worded in the more recent books, after all. Older books (pre 3.5) are a bit ambiguous, and I think this was intended to be the 3.5 fix. Then give the race the bonus feat Improved Toughness, without requiring the pre-reqs. This gives the race +1 hp/HD. If the concept is "toughness" and the increased hp/HD doesn't fit your liking, then give them a +1 natural armor bonus (or sacred, or profane... whichever fits the race/alignment in question).
Zuractai 05-05-07, 05:44 PM	The LA of feral creature is... I guess I would like to say wrong. I am pretty sure there is no template that has a LA less then the +CR of its template, and feral ranges from +1CR to +4 CR at higher HD. As for it being a feat, there are a couple feats that increase natural healing/day by a small amount, so unless it was a feat with quite a few prereqs, that would seem like an extreamly powerful feat. Look at the healing granted by the Ring of Regeneration, a 90,000 gp ring. It lets you heal 1hp/level ever hour, or 1 nonlethal damager/level every 5 minutes. And before anyone says it, no the ring does not say this is regeneration, so it doesn't convert normal damage into nonlethal, and it doesn't bring you back from the dead. Sure it will regenerate lost limbs/organs but the only mechanism in the game that involves cutting off limbs is Vorpal, and losing your head is still death when you have the ring on. Unless someone is torturing you, you are not going to be losing limbs and if they are... well they will steal your ring. Oh, and unless it says it doesn't work unless you have 1hp or more, it does. The only creatures that have fast healing and say that as far as I remember are undead/constructs that die/are destroyed (vampires go into mist, but still sorta destroyed body wise) at 0hp. All in all I would say if the DM says it is alright Fast healing 1 + some minor bonus would probaly be worth a +1la. Maybe +2 to one maybe 2 stats, but I still think it should only apear on templates/races that have a higher LA.
Part-Human2 05-05-07, 06:18 PM	To put it into other terms, the Sithilar Blood Graft (LoM) is fast healing, non-removable, doesn't occupy a body slot, fast healing 2 for 200,000 gp. Muls (Dragon Magazine 319, 3.5 update of the Dark Sun race) are +1 LA but gains +2 STR, +4 CON, psionic power points, and gain fast healing 1 by level 10 (fast healing 3 by 15). Of course, Dragon Magazine had the Greyhawk regional feat that provided Regeneration 1! Regeneration for a feat! The Evolved Undead template (LM) is +1 LA gives +2 STR, +2 CHA, +1 natural armor, fast healing 3 and a random SLA. The Feral (SS) template is also +1 LA and provides a number of benefits besides just fast healing. The Combat Vigor feat (PHBII) requires 1 other feat, WIS 13 and provides fast healing while in combat focus (lasting at least 1 min after first successful attack).
DarkRhystar 05-05-07, 06:44 PM	The LA of feral creature is... I guess I would like to say wrong. I am pretty sure there is no template that has a LA less then the +CR of its template, and feral ranges from +1CR to +4 CR at higher HD. Feral is too powerful for its LA. As for it being a feat, there are a couple feats that increase natural healing/day by a small amount, so unless it was a feat with quite a few prereqs, that would seem like an extreamly powerful feat. And I'd wager a majority of players don't take those feats as it is. It's one thing to balance one feat against another, but it's wiser to balance one feat against another... that is actually used. Look at the healing granted by the Ring of Regeneration, a 90,000 gp ring. Yeah, but the Ring of Regeneration is grossly overpriced for what it does.
Holy_Beholder 05-05-07, 08:48 PM	You could just have regeneration 1, fast healing 1, regeneration is beat by(insert damage type here) That would be worth +1 LA
Zuractai 05-05-07, 09:27 PM	I will agree that certain things are just blatantly never used, and shouldn't be used to fully judge other things. Ring of regeneration is way over priced, but is a good example of how much such healing powers are generaly valued. Most of the healing feats are sorta bad, but if you had a feat that healed you 1hp/min that you concentrated, it would be realy good. What I could see as a good lower LA fast healing ability would be one that lets you use fast healing 1 for, I don't know 10 rounds/level. Good, but makes taking small amounts of damage eventuly matter.