Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 09:00 AM	I would just like to make a statement to everyone who needs to prove to someone that the LA system is and always has been broken. Example: Stats: assume all are 10 for simplicity Half Dragon: a melee template LA +3 A half dragon is supposed to be naturally greatly tougher than most common races so they give them natural armor and a con bonus. HP max with 1 level into barbarian at level 4 will be 13! A level 4 character which is supposed to be thougher than a human only has 13 hit points for a melee template? A character who is a human being 4th level wizard will on average have 11.5 HP; A Rogue 16.5 HP; Monk 21.5; Fighter 26.5 (more than double); Barbarian 31.5. (nearly triple). Does this not ring true to you? Forget Common vs. Cat how about half dragon vs. wizard! There are also any number of additional problems such as saves, skill points, BaB, and calss abilities, but this is just one subject I thought I'd bring up. Yes they may eventually even out and maybe even surpass other classes due to the more HP per level, but how long wold that take really?, but also the key point, it just dosen't make any sense role play wise. PS. My suggestion to future additions as a fix. Let each race with a LA requirement have an actual CLASS with: BaB, Saves, Skills, Skill Points, and racial modifications as special abilities, not this BS monster class system where if the original template didn't get these they wouldn't either. Example Role Pay wise look at it this way Hey I am a Goliath scout, I am the toughest, biggest guy in the party. I have 9 hit points. Hey look I am a 2nd level human scout. I am not as tough as the goliath but I got 12.5 hp. Some one needs to jump through the fire and get burned to release the door. Who is supposed to be better suited to do this role play wise? Example 2 (better) Role Pay wise look at it this way Hey I am a Goliath barbarian, I am the toughest, biggest guy in the party. I have 13 hit points. Hey look I am a 2nd level elf barbarian. I am not as tough as the goliath but I got 16.5 hp. Some one needs to jump through the fire and get burned to release the door. Who is supposed to be better suited to do this role play wise?
Naderion 04-25-07, 09:03 AM	And what, oh most wise, do YOU suggest to make all characters equal in strength? :)
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 09:12 AM	And what, oh most wise, do YOU suggest to make all characters equal in strength? :) Do you not see the hypocrisy of LA in this suggestion? The race is supposed to be naturally tougher, not to mention stronger, then most base races, but due to the huge amount of LA it defeats the very purpose of taking the temple in both game play and role pay wise.
inspectr88 04-25-07, 09:16 AM	As you've made so painfully clear, everyone has their own opinions. Here's mine. LA is used for people who want to play more powerful characters, and add a bit of flavour to the game, because a Succubus travelling with a party of half-orcs is just delicious. Yes, it's harder to play with lower health, but that's so it's more difficult to play, so not just anyone can take all the sweet tasty things that come with a Level Adjustment. Later on, missing out on 3 hd might not be so much of a problem if you have natural armor, massive con bonuses, etc etc. I enjoy the level adjustment concept, why do people always want to change it?
Runepriest 04-25-07, 09:21 AM	How much damage is the half-dragon doing with his breath weapon? How big is it? It's doing 6D8 energy damage and a 30 ft. cone or 60 ft. line. I do admit though that it's not as useful at high levels for spells could do the same. Though one could argue it's the perfect low-level minion killer. And animate breath, for that matter. I say it's fine as is with those stat increases. It completely owns with lots of d4's or d6's for racial hit dice.
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 09:23 AM	As you've made so painfully clear, everyone has their own opinions. Here's mine. LA is used for people who want to play more powerful characters, and add a bit of flavour to the game, because a Succubus travelling with a party of half-orcs is just delicious. Yes, it's harder to play with lower health, but that's so it's more difficult to play, so not just anyone can take all the sweet tasty things that come with a Level Adjustment. Later on, missing out on 3 hd might not be so much of a problem if you have natural armor, massive con bonuses, etc etc. I enjoy the level adjustment concept, why do people always want to change it? Because it defeats the very purpose of taking the race in many cases. Again look at the Half Dragon Template. It is a template for a tougher stronger Melee type character. The template implies that Naturally from the very day they were born, but day one in game you have on average half the HP than a standard fighter IF you put your first level into the class that has the MOST hit points.
YabaTheWhat 04-25-07, 09:24 AM	I would just like to make a statement to everyone who needs to prove to someone that the LA system is and always has been broken. Example: Stats: assume all are 10 for simplicity Half Dragon: a melee template LA +3 A half dragon is supposed to be naturally greatly tougher than most common races so they give them natural armor and a con bonus. HP max with 1 level into barbarian at level 4 will be 13! A level 4 character which is supposed to be thougher than a human only has 13 hit points for a melee template? A character who is a human being 4th level wizard will on average have 11.5 HP; A Rogue 16.5 HP; Fighter 26.5 (more than double); Barbarian 31.5. (nearly triple). Does this not ring true to you? Forget Common vs. Cat how about half dragon vs. wizard! There are also any number of additional problems such as saves, skill points, BaB, and calss abilities, but this is just one subject I thought I'd bring up. Yes they may eventually even out and maybe even surpass other classes due to the more HP per level, but how long wold that take really?, but also the key point, it just dosen't make any sense role play wise. PS. My suggestion to future additions as a fix. Let each race with a LA requirement have an actual CLASS with: BaB, Saves, Skills, Skill Points, and racial modifications as special abilities, not this BS monster class system where if the original template didn't get these they wouldn't either. "An orange is more orange than a steak, therefore the steak is useless as food." Seriously, the half dragon may lack on hitpoints, but it gets some pretty potent offensive and tactical advantages. If used right, it is definitely worth its level adjustment. If used poorly, well, the person shouldn't have been playing one if they had no idea how to do so. Granted the ECL system isn't perfect. I should know. But it's a whole lot better than nothing.
Naderion 04-25-07, 09:25 AM	I think the Idea is, that all characters SHOULD have the same posibilities. It just won't work when one player plays a human, one plays a dwarf and one plays a half-dragon frost giant, and they all start with the same amount of levels. I agree that much, that the LA values are often poorly assigned and sometimes to high, but in principle, the idea is good. When I take a look at a creature and think, this would be equal to a human of 6th level as a player character, then the players are allowed to start this race as a 6th level character with no class levels. It starts with the XP ammount of a 6th level character and ist always threated as being Humanoid6/Fighter4 or whatever. It's a different approach than LA takes, but I think the outcome is the same.
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 09:25 AM	How much damage is the half-dragon doing with his breath weapon? How big is it? It's doing 6D8 energy damage and a 30 ft. cone or 60 ft. line. I do admit though that it's not as useful at high levels for spells could do the same. Though one could argue it's the perfect low-level minion killer. And animate breath, for that matter. I say it's fine as is with those stat increases. It completely owns with lots of d4's or d6's for racial hit dice. That is not the issue here, we are talking about the RP and game play fallacy of loss class HP with LA.
Fallenangel359 04-25-07, 09:27 AM	LA based characters weren't designed to be played at first hit die. Lets look at that half dragon barbarian vs commoner at ECL 5. +8 str, so the attack roll of the half dragon is actually higher than the commoner, +x to con, and a larger hit die. Hum... That barbarian just fricken pwned that commoner. Thats just 1 ecl higher than what you said. Lets make a nice comparison. Ecl 10. Pixie 4la 6 fighter. Character has weapon specialization crossbow, and crossbow sniper as a feat. Oh snap, this character is invisible, and sniping people for decent amount of damage with 3 attacks per round (1d6+5 with a base dex of 14, and no magical enhancements at all, when the character should 50k at ecl 10, which is enough to buy bracers of archer, and a +3 enhancement on the xbow. ) So thats 22 dex, bracers of archery boosting attack roll by 2, and damage roll by 1, and a 1d6+7 xbow having the wounding enhancement. weapon focus 1, dex 6, size 1, enhancement 1, compentence 2, base attack 6 17 attack roll at ecl 10, okay take 2 off for rapidshot (15) Oh wait, thats a pretty high attack roll. With the wounding property, so long as you don't fight undead or constructs, you are decimating them. Every other hit (3 tries per round), drops their con mod. If you want to push where its okay even further, add 6 more levels of fighter, grab deadeye shot, get your 4th attack, and add more dex. 1.5x dex to damage within 60 feet anybody from a small invisible flying archer with spell like abilities.
epifreak 04-25-07, 09:28 AM	Sure they're gimpy at the lowest level; however, what about a level 7 half dragon versus a level 10 ________? Suddenly things are much more balanced.
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 09:29 AM	"An orange is more orange than a steak, therefore the steak is useless as food." Seriously, the half dragon may lack on hitpoints, but it gets some pretty potent offensive and tactical advantages. If used right, it is definitely worth its level adjustment. If used poorly, well, the person shouldn't have been playing one if they had no idea how to do so. Granted the ECL system isn't perfect. I should know. But it's a whole lot better than nothing. Refer please to my last post.
inspectr88 04-25-07, 09:29 AM	Would you prefer someone gets the good things about a level adjustment, but doesn't take any of the downsides? ps. Yaba, nice job with the oranges thing. That's kinda deep. In a way.
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 09:29 AM	Sure they're gimpy at the lowest level; however, what about a level 7 half dragon versus a level 10 ________? Suddenly things are much more balanced. Refer to my last post please.
Knivestgn 04-25-07, 09:30 AM	But the halfdragon is a lvl 1 cclass while everyone else is lvl 4. Think of it this way. Yeah you are naturally tougher, so tough that at the very beginning of your adventuring career you are capable of hanging with fairly seasoned adventurers. Later on the lvl adjustment at hit point loss wont really mean much, at effective level twelve as a fighter you have lost what like 13 HP? but gained a con boost capable of more than making up for it?
Krusk 04-25-07, 09:31 AM	We use a system involving Racial class levels for any race going to be played that has a LA. we usually dont allow more than LA 4, and we allow the first racial class level to be taken within the first 5 levels of the characters career. basically you have to take the level befor you hit 5, or you get 1/2 xp until you take it. you have until level 10 to take your second one, 15 to take your 3rd and so one. thats why we dont do LA over 4, to keep it simple. But it really helps out characters that would normally have a huge LA in a level 1 game. They get one racial class level per LA. If a race does not currently have a racial class progression, the dm and player wanting to play work one out together, and then it is saved for future use.
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 09:34 AM	Would you prefer someone gets the good things about a level adjustment, but doesn't take any of the downsides? ps. Yaba, nice job with the oranges thing. That's kinda deep. In a way. I think that instead of giving them such a huge handy cap in which they are gimped at their lowest level hit point wise, which is contrary to their very concept, give them a full class were they gain their racial abilities as special abilities. Yeah it may take longer, but it would be more correct and balanced. One such example would be a version of the dragon disciple with out the wings and extra spells, but probably with less levels to complete.
Naderion 04-25-07, 09:43 AM	But the halfdragon is a lvl 1 cclass while everyone else is lvl 4. Think of it this way. Yeah you are naturally tougher, so tough that at the very beginning of your adventuring career you are capable of hanging with fairly seasoned adventurers. Later on the lvl adjustment at hit point loss wont really mean much, at effective level twelve as a fighter you have lost what like 13 HP? but gained a con boost capable of more than making up for it? Here's the system I prefer. When you create a character of a powerfull race, you first have to pay of an XP-debt that is determined by your level adjustment, before you can advance in class levels. A half dragon has LA +3, so to reach your first level, you have to gather enough XP to level up to level 4 and gain your first level in a class. To keep things easy, you may just reduce your XP by 6.000, once they exceed the amount, and from tat point on, you are threated as a complitly normal character with no level adjustment at all. One would have to reconsider the value of each races level adjustment, but as they are, you would be well adviced to do so anyway.
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 09:44 AM	But the halfdragon is a lvl 1 cclass while everyone else is lvl 4. Think of it this way. Yeah you are naturally tougher, so tough that at the very beginning of your adventuring career you are capable of hanging with fairly seasoned adventurers. Later on the lvl adjustment at hit point loss wont really mean much, at effective level twelve as a fighter you have lost what like 13 HP? but gained a con boost capable of more than making up for it? What I am saying is that sounds sort of backwards. A half dragon should be naturally tougher than a fighter at level 4 role play wise but less of an issue later in the levels. Take the goliath, they are huge hulking beings, but due to their LA they lose HP for one howl level so then at level 2, when they are supposed to be tougher role play wise than a fight that is level two they need to complicate this by putting levels into barbarian. Example Role Pay wise look at it this way Hey I am a Goliath scout, I am the toughest, biggest guy in the party. I have 9 hit points. Hey look I am a 2nd level human scout. I am not as tough as the goliath but I got 12.5 hp. Some one needs to jump through the fire and get burned to release the door. Who is supposed to be better suited to do this role play wise. Example (better) Role Pay wise look at it this way Hey I am a Goliath barbarian, I am the toughest, biggest guy in the party. I have 13 hit points. Hey look I am a 2nd level elf barbarian. I am not as tough as the goliath but I got 16.5 hp. Some one needs to jump through the fire and get burned to release the door. Who is supposed to be better suited to do this role play wise?
Karzach 04-25-07, 09:49 AM	Sooo, in other words, a shorter version of the Red Dragon Disciple. The extra abilities are (supposedly) balanced against the loss of hitpoints and skill points. So replacing the LA with a racial class would probably increase the spread of non-class levels, probably to around 5 in the case of the half-dragon. Regardless, I always figured the natural armor boost was a pretty good representation of the half-dragon being tougher. Fighter: "YAAAAR!" *swing-TINK!* "Uh...my sword just bounced off his skin...." But that's just me.
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 09:55 AM	Sooo, in other words, a shorter version of the Red Dragon Disciple. The extra abilities are (supposedly) balanced against the loss of hitpoints and skill points. So replacing the LA with a racial class would probably increase the spread of non-class levels, probably to around 5 in the case of the half-dragon. Regardless, I always figured the natural armor boost was a pretty good representation of the half-dragon being tougher. Fighter: "YAAAAR!" *swing-TINK!* "Uh...my sword just bounced off his skin...." But that's just me. Take a look at my examples.
inspectr88 04-25-07, 09:56 AM	I think you're making a huge deal out of a completely reasonable setback for lower levels. Example- I'm a 13th level Goliath Barbarian. I have enough hitpoints that I'd let underprivileged children stab me with a dagger for the hell of it. There's a fire, and I need to dive through it to unlock a door. I decide to "chill", no pun intended, in the center of it for a few seconds, wait until I catch on fire, then wait for the fire to die out, and still manage to unlock the door. My human counterpart is looking at me with confusion, as he has only 23 more hitpoints (most of which were gained through good dice rolls on his part, and bad rolls on my part)
runestar 04-25-07, 10:03 AM	Is it just me, or is the OP failing to see the very contradiction of his own statement?:confused: A half dragon fighter 1 will be stronger and tougher than a human fighter 1, not not a human fighter 4. That is the very whole point behind LA. You are more powerful than others with the same amount of training as you, which is why you must be treated as the equivalent of a higher lv character for purposes of accumulating xp. His improved stats supposedly makes him the equivalent of a 4th lv fighter. This is not analogous to saying that he is as strong or as tough as a 4th lv fighter. It merely means that he will be as useful in combat as a 4th lv character. But usefulness can come in a variety of ways, not just by seeing who has the most hp. Besides, hp alone does not always tell the whole tale. While I would never play a half dragon fighter 1 as a 4th lv character, I do not mind slapping one on a mid-lv fighter. Templates are better gained mid-game, when your base character's foundation is more or less set in stone, and you have ample hp, bab and saves and need not worry about about being a glass cannon. Example Role Pay wise look at it this way Hey I am a Goliath scout, I am the toughest, biggest guy in the party. I have 9 hit points. Hey look I am a 2nd level human scout. I am not as tough as the goliath but I got 12.5 hp. Some one needs to jump through the fire and get burned to release the door. Who is supposed to be better suited to do this role play wise? Whatever gave you such a weird idea? LA/ECL is an abstract term which is hard to quantify in rp terms. It is there only as a game-balance mechanic, to allow people to play monsters as PCs without necessarily unbalancing the game. The goliath would be the toughest and biggest guy in the party if he was being compared with other 1st lv class builds. Besides, if you compare a lv19 goliath barb with a lv20 human barb, the goliath barb will definitely have more hp. At lower lvs, racial con bonuses are usually outstripped by class HD, but will eventually catch up. In RP terms, this means that your goliath scout1 is not as learned or experienced as the human scout2. He has some natural talents/endowments which may help him excel in his career, but that is balanced out by the fact that he is way out of his league. To try and put it in layman terms, imagine a human with an exceptional int score, say 20. He is only 10 years old and has been asked to skip a few levels, and enter tertiary education straight, rather than completing primary school first(say 4 ranks in knowledge). Compare him with an average human with 10 int but in tertiary education(say 9 ranks in knowledge). The 10 year old kid would be smarter than any other kid in primary school, but hard pressed to compete with older students who may not be as mentally gifted as him, because the latter has had the benefit of better education. LA is far from dead. Its concept is quite sound, just that implementation has been a hit or miss scenario. :)
Argaud 04-25-07, 10:06 AM	Since when are hit points the only way to measure a character's power? What about, I don't know... everything else?
inspectr88 04-25-07, 10:07 AM	To try and put it in layman terms, imagine a human with an exceptional int score, say 20. But he is only 10 years old and only had basic schooling(say 4 ranks in knowledge). Compare him with an average human with 10 int but tertiary education(say 9 ranks in knowledge). The 10 year old kid would be smarter than any other kid in primary school, but hard pressed to compete with older students who may not be as gifted as him. Oh, snap! Outstanding work, my friend. But to Spikes01k, I see where you could be coming from with this, but it just seems that you're wanting to change a perfectly good system. I know it's just your personal statement, but when you make it public, then we're allowed to shoot it down. Much love, bro.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-25-07, 10:16 AM	Example 2 (better) Role Pay wise look at it this way Hey I am a Goliath barbarian, I am the toughest, biggest guy in the party. I have 13 hit points. Hey look I am a 2nd level elf barbarian. I am not as tough as the goliath but I got 16.5 hp. Some one needs to jump through the fire and get burned to release the door. Who is supposed to be better suited to do this role play wise? "It's bigger" doesn't always equate to "it's tougher". A 20th level halfling wizard likely has more hit points than a dire bear. Welcome to D&D, the game where high level characters are really tough.
Eolen 04-25-07, 10:22 AM	I was DMing in a group where one of my PCs was a Centaur. I personally don't think a centaur should wield large weapons. Their human torso wields weapons which would logically mean that they would wield human weapons. Some things though, are more for balance than real life. Because real life is unfair, and nobody is really equal. Stuff like LA is an attempt to even the field.
Spikes01k 04-25-07, 10:22 AM	In RP terms, this means that your goliath scout1 is not as learned or experienced as the human scout2. He has some natural talents/endowments which may help him excel in his career, but that is balanced out by the fact that he is way out of his league. I do understand this to a degree, I just don't like the logic I guess.
runestar 04-25-07, 10:38 AM	It is all about maintaining game balance(or at least the perception thereof). Imagine Superman adventuring alongside the Green Arrow. The imbalance would be so great it isn't even funny. But in a dnd game, Superman would probably be a paragon human fighter1 or something(okay, bad example, but for lack of a better analogy) while the green arrow would be a human fighter16 or ranger16. Okay, another really bad example, but you get my gist...:P :embarrass
Nakat 04-25-07, 10:44 AM	Take the goliath, they are huge hulking beings, but due to their LA they lose HP for one howl level so then at level 2, when they are supposed to be tougher role play wise than a fight that is level two they need to complicate this by putting levels into barbarian. Alright, but let's just step back and look at what the Goliath is actually trading here. Using He Loses: 6.5hp, +1 base attack bonus, +1 Fort save, and Uncanny Dodge. He Gains: +4 STR (More damage, skill checks) +2 CON (more HP - they are actually only losing 5.5 cause of that) -2 DEX (lower AC, but what barbarian quibbles about AC anyway), Powerful Build (Better Weapon Damage, +4 to Grapple, +4 vs. Trip, Bull Rush, etc.), Is acclimated to high altitude (may not come up much but damn useful when it does.), +2 Racial to Sense Motive Checks (hey, a bonus is a bonus), and the ability to always jump as if running (I don't know about you but that saves my butt all over the place.) I think that's actually a pretty fair Loss to Gain ratio there. I understand what you are saying, but all your arguments are centered around HP, and yeah that's a little lower, but when they are swinging a Greatsword for 3d6+6 (assuming an easily achieved 18 STR) before power attack, you are gonna drop everything at level two in one or two hits anyway, so just fight smart, and those hp won't matter as much anyway. Not to mention, a Goliath Barbarian takes racial substitution levels and now grows large when he rages, meaning he is swinging like that 10ft away. This all seems really really even to me.
Kresalak 04-25-07, 10:58 AM	The Golaith trades his class level for racial features, but he also trades racial features for that. Remember, the Human Barbarian gets extra skills points and an extra feat as well as an extra class level.
Nakat 04-25-07, 11:02 AM	Fair enough, but the only reason I'm not so much considering that is that all of the races do that. Human is no more a default barbarian than a half orc. If you want to take some of the racial traits out fine. I use them as a point because power level wise they are way, way over the core races. I actually think Goliath is one of the better LA +1 races there is for what you get.
runestar 04-25-07, 01:32 PM	The only problem I can think of with LA is that of properly weighting abilities and assigning a "fair LA" to it, since that also depends on when you acquire said ability. For example, innate flight is quite useful at lower lvs when no one else has the ability, but less so at higher lvs, when fly spells and magic items are all too prevalent. This suggests that a lower lv character may have to be penalized more heavily than a higher lv character, but apart from the rather clunky LA buyoff variant rule, I know of no other way of retroactively removing LA.:( This is one aspect I feel could be revised. It is quite easy to say "assign a fair price for said ability", but actually quite tricky to decide on a single value.
Kresalak 04-25-07, 01:35 PM	How about you make the ability scale so that it's level appropriate at both low and high levels?