LA of the drow... [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA of the drow... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gemstone
03-20-07, 06:56 PM Me and a buddy were discussing the LA of the drow yesterday and he made some damn fine points that the LA was incorrect and horrible screwed the drow over. Among his arguments were:

At an equal level, an SR of 11+character level gives you 40% chance of being unaffected, against lower saves and lower hp
you miss out spell levels, BAB, feats and skill points
you gain some minor ability advantages

Okay, I want you to make me like the LA of drow again, or just prove that he was right. Is the LA balanced?
Kazeofwinds
03-20-07, 08:02 PM Depends how often magic comes up, if you have spells hurled at your face all the time, the SR is probably worth it, if all the casters in the game make the SR check on a 2, or you fight maybe one caster every 5 sessions, then the SR becomes more of a niusance that an asset, since it takes a standard action to drop it.

Drow As-Is are probably a good LA+1 in any campaign that doesnt involve hordes of spellcasters with a CL like 4 levels lower than you.

Honestly though, It'd probably be better to give drow a couple more ablities over reducing the LA, something along the lines of another +2 dex and one of those feats from races of faerun that gives them racial SLAs is about right.
AMGriffin
03-20-07, 08:08 PM If you want 'em LA+1 just ice the SR and turn it into a save against magic spells.
Voldar_Mecorthio
03-20-07, 08:20 PM AMGriffin, that's a great idea!

You could use the "lesser drow" with LA +0 in the end of Players Guide to Faerun.
AMGriffin
03-20-07, 08:27 PM Yeah, or that. But I think making Drow distinct from the other elves does more for their flavor I suppose.
Gemstone
03-21-07, 02:55 AM If you want 'em LA+1 just ice the SR and turn it into a save against magic spells.
Actually, Im not as much out to lower or increase their LA, as much as discussing if they are worth the +2 LA.

I've always figured that since the CR is +1 for a drow, then the LA should be +1 too
Polaris
03-21-07, 03:14 AM Gemstone,

Your buddy is right. Drow are almost pathetically weak for LA+2. However, if you look at what they get, they are almost forced to be LA+2.

1. LA <> CR. They are completely different things. In combat, the only big thing going for the Drow is it's SR. The unbalanced mental stats and rest aren't that big a deal for a monster since you will only see it for one or two encounters. That's why you can't equate CR adjustments and LA adjustments.

2. Drow get:

120' of Darkvision
Lightblindness
+2 Saves vs Magic
SR of 11+char-levels
Elf-Abilities (with different weapons)
+2 Dex, Int, Cha for -2 Con

The problem with all these abilities (save the Elf-abilities, Darkvision, and Lightblindness) is that they all scale with level and they don't add to the raw fighting strength of the race (unlike bonuses to natural armor, strength, con, ect).

Any race that has 50/50 SR or better for casters of it's level absolutely needs an LA. That's because especially at low levels, SR is just so useful to have. Eventually it becomes less useful, but the point of LA is to balance out increased survivability at low levels.

In addition to that, any race that has unbalanced stats, especially mental stats also needs an LA in order to discourage earth-breaking spellcasters.

Thus the Drow needs at least an LA of 2....and yet....the Drow gets hit twice in the hit point department....first from having two less levels, and then having -1hp/level for the levels they DO get!

Result: Drow are underpowered with jaws of glass and frankly a poor choice mechanically for a PC.

Possible solution: I would strongly recommend dropping the SR entirely and simply keep the +2 saves vs all magic (or make the +2 universal). What is left is in line with an average to average-minus LA+1 race....and as a PC you won't miss the SR (after 9th level, the entire party can get it anyway via spell).

-Polaris
MikeN
03-21-07, 07:15 PM Unless you're building to a specific concept, SR is really not that special. For instance, the Foe Hunter from the old Masters of the Wild put together with the Stalker of Kharash from BoED to give you great SR vs your favored enemies (anything evil :D )

Otherwise, especially with the LA hit, you're screwed if you play one of those races.

If you can use buyoff, it becomes more manageable of course.
Treymordin
03-22-07, 01:01 AM I think that Drow should be able to be played right away without the penalty.
Polaris
03-22-07, 01:10 AM I think that Drow should be able to be played right away without the penalty.

I certainly don't!!

Drow have SR which while not as good as it once was, is still pretty awesome at low levels especially at the level a Drow PC gets it (11+Char level). In addition, Drow get +4 (net) stats including two +2s in spellcasting stats along with innate spells (not much granted) and the +2 saves vs all magic AND Elf abilities.

Without an LA, Drow would be hands down far more potent than any other elf and that's not a good thing. The problem with drow is that the LA is a sledgehammer when a scaple is needed.

-Polaris
Treymordin
03-22-07, 01:14 AM But the drow are more poweful than regular elves, They always have been.
Finfreeze
03-22-07, 01:15 AM Unfortunately, buyoff encourages people to take the Phrenic Creature template, which gives you equally-good spell/power resistance, far better bonuses to ability scores (net +8 and no penalties!), and scaling psi-like abilities. We're talking fission, teleport 3/day, defensive precognition 3/day, and other goodies fully augmented to your level.

And even without buyoff, a phrenic human is leagues beyond a drow.
Polaris
03-22-07, 01:26 AM But the drow are more poweful than regular elves, They always have been.

Of course, and as such they merit an LA, QED.

-Polaris
Kadasbrass
03-22-07, 03:33 AM I never understood why drow needed to be more powerful then regular elves... Its a cool race but doesn't need the stuff that makes it a LA race.
Gemstone
03-22-07, 04:37 AM I never understood why drow needed to be more powerful then regular elves... Its a cool race but doesn't need the stuff that makes it a LA race.
The largest problem with the drow is that they have abilities that merits LA. The ability to use their Spell-like abilities and their SR (while low indeed), merits LA. They've tacked on the ability score adjustments mostly to merit the increase of LA
Kadasbrass
03-22-07, 06:05 AM The largest problem with the drow is that they have abilities that merits LA. The ability to use their Spell-like abilities and their SR (while low indeed), merits LA. They've tacked on the ability score adjustments mostly to merit the increase of LA

Yeah but why do they need SR, Spell-likes, and unbalanced ability scores?
Gemstone
03-22-07, 07:30 AM Yeah but why do they need SR, Spell-likes, and unbalanced ability scores?
Ever read a book that incorporates drow? They have spell-like abilities, SR and other stuff that are readily worked into the game :)
Necromas
03-22-07, 07:36 AM They are worth the 2 LA simply because the spell resistance can be a dramatic advantage.

Now, if in your campaign all the casters can easily beat the SR, or enemies who are casters are rare, then just house-rule it. But when they make a race they have to tailor it to different possible campaigns, and with that in mind they couldn't give it 1 LA because then they'd be overpowered in games where the average encounter has a magic user in it.
Treymordin
03-22-07, 09:00 AM Unfortunately, buyoff encourages people to take the Phrenic Creature template, which gives you equally-good spell/power resistance, far better bonuses to ability scores (net +8 and no penalties!), and scaling psi-like abilities. We're talking fission, teleport 3/day, defensive precognition 3/day, and other goodies fully augmented to your level.

And even without buyoff, a phrenic human is leagues beyond a drow.

What is this template of which you speak?
Finfreeze
03-22-07, 10:36 AM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm

That has info on the template.
Gemstone
03-22-07, 10:46 AM Would increasing their SR to 13+character level affect gameplay to much?
Kadasbrass
03-22-07, 02:45 PM Ever read a book that incorporates drow? They have spell-like abilities, SR and other stuff that are readily worked into the game :)

More to the point, why does a cursed elven race need to be magically stronger then regular elves? My point isn't on them having an LA but on why do they have the abilities to make them LA in the first place.
Rogue Shadows
03-22-07, 03:40 PM Because it's cool.

In-game, it's because thy bred them into existance, or else they were a gift from their divinities.

For example, the +2 Int and +2 Cha is because drow have bred for intelligence and force of personality.

Eugenics.
Kadasbrass
03-22-07, 03:54 PM Because it's cool.

In-game, it's because thy bred them into existance, or else they were a gift from their divinities.

For example, the +2 Int and +2 Cha is because drow have bred for intelligence and force of personality.

Eugenics.

Yet regular elves require not the same abilities?
Polaris
03-22-07, 04:35 PM More to the point, why does a cursed elven race need to be magically stronger then regular elves? My point isn't on them having an LA but on why do they have the abilities to make them LA in the first place.

Because it's a Sacred Cow at this point. You aren't going to get a better answer than that.

The abilities that give the Drow an LA these days have been included in one form or another ever since the Drow were first introduced as monsters way back in early first edition. Moreover, these abilities have been replicated and included in so many versions of player-character drow (of both first and second edition) that the abilities have come to be an expected part of what defines a Dark Elf as a Dark Elf in DnD.

This isn't true for other RPGs, but in DND if you took these abilities away, the race would no longer be accepted as drow by the DnD community as a whole. I think one might get away with removing SR (since prior editions had that decay once coming to the surface), but that's about it.

-Polaris
AMGriffin
03-22-07, 06:18 PM Drow are not worth the LA+2. The very fact they have a constitution penalty and NOTHING that really serves to defend them (say for spell resistance) is a major cripple to Drow. They'll be pretty good if you're just fighting spell happy enemies (And I'm giving drow the benefit of the doubt here), but try having a drow fight against an ogre or an orc, or some big brute who relies on their muscles over magic.

Mr. Ogre doesn't care much for magic, he just likes to make smash. He smash drow real easy.

To make matters worse, spellcasters generally aren't wise to have LA, and drow in general have only +2 bonuses to intelligence and Charisma. I'm really seeing something similar to the problem of the monk, even though they've got tons of abilities, they're generally ill-suited to do most tasks.

Like I said, just removing the SR and will save bonus and replacing it with a +4 on saves against Magic spells in general would make drow quite balanced at LA+1
Polaris
03-22-07, 10:57 PM AMGriffin,

While I generally agree with you (as I stated earlier), the problem with Drow is that they must have an LA+2. The very presence of SR (especially 11+char level SR) mandates at least an LA of +1 right there, and the fact that Drow get unbalanced (high) stats demands at least another one.

The problem as you note is that a scalpel is needed to properly balance out the Drow for PC use, and LA is more of a sledgehammer.

-Polaris
Treymordin
03-22-07, 11:56 PM If I remember they got the SR from their exposure to the radiation in the Underdark and lost if they stayed away too long.
Polaris
03-23-07, 12:06 AM If I remember they got the SR from their exposure to the radiation in the Underdark and lost if they stayed away too long.

That used to be the case in first and second edition. Drow keep their SR in 3E now no matter what. It's a racial blessing of Lloth IIRC. In the same way Drow gear no longer deteriorates in sunlight.

-Polaris
Spikes01k
03-23-07, 12:08 AM Gemstone,

Your buddy is right. Drow are almost pathetically weak for LA+2. However, if you look at what they get, they are almost forced to be LA+2.

1. LA <> CR. They are completely different things. In combat, the only big thing going for the Drow is it's SR. The unbalanced mental stats and rest aren't that big a deal for a monster since you will only see it for one or two encounters. That's why you can't equate CR adjustments and LA adjustments.

2. Drow get:

120' of Darkvision
Lightblindness
+2 Saves vs Magic
SR of 11+char-levels
Elf-Abilities (with different weapons)
+2 Dex, Int, Cha for -2 Con

The problem with all these abilities (save the Elf-abilities, Darkvision, and Lightblindness) is that they all scale with level and they don't add to the raw fighting strength of the race (unlike bonuses to natural armor, strength, con, ect).

Any race that has 50/50 SR or better for casters of it's level absolutely needs an LA. That's because especially at low levels, SR is just so useful to have. Eventually it becomes less useful, but the point of LA is to balance out increased survivability at low levels.

In addition to that, any race that has unbalanced stats, especially mental stats also needs an LA in order to discourage earth-breaking spellcasters.

Thus the Drow needs at least an LA of 2....and yet....the Drow gets hit twice in the hit point department....first from having two less levels, and then having -1hp/level for the levels they DO get!

Result: Drow are underpowered with jaws of glass and frankly a poor choice mechanically for a PC.

Possible solution: I would strongly recommend dropping the SR entirely and simply keep the +2 saves vs all magic (or make the +2 universal). What is left is in line with an average to average-minus LA+1 race....and as a PC you won't miss the SR (after 9th level, the entire party can get it anyway via spell).

-Polaris

Thats funny that almost sounds as powerful as a goliath. hmmm. Just think about it.
Polaris
03-23-07, 12:18 AM Thats funny that almost sounds as powerful as a goliath. hmmm. Just think about it.

Obviously you haven't thought about it with sufficient rigour then.

Any race that have +4 stats net including two bonus spell casting stats is obviously unsuitable for LA+0. That should be obvious to anyone.

LA+1 right there.

In addition, SR by itself is worth another LA because it protects against most spells especially at lower levels radically increasing character survivability.

That's another LA.

1+1==2

Simple as that.

-Polaris
Argaud
03-23-07, 03:23 AM Obviously you haven't thought about it with sufficient rigour then.

Any race that have +4 stats net including two bonus spell casting stats is obviously unsuitable for LA+0. That should be obvious to anyone.

LA+1 right there.

In addition, SR by itself is worth another LA because it protects against most spells especially at lower levels radically increasing character survivability.

That's another LA.

1+1==2

Simple as that.

-Polaris
Yes, that is how it is calculated. But see, I have seen drow in play in a party and they are very weak for their level.

The problem, I think, comes from scaling. LA+2 is far more than LA+1 and the abilities gained to go from +1 to +2 need to be worth quite a bit. Most folks viewing the drow follow the path you have taken. Fist they see the ability, saves and other bonus, and say LA+1, and they are right. Then they see the level +11 SR and say "just that is worth LA+1" and they are right too.

But in the LA system 1+1 is not 2. If we take a normal elf and give him SR=level+11 we have a LA+1 creature. If on top of that we add some minor ability bonus, some random daily slas of low level, mostly harmless spells and some minor other stuff... the LA of the creature does not grow to +2, the bonuses are just not worth enough to raise that +1 to +2.

I am not against the LA system, but many of the LA calculations aren't working.
Gemstone
03-23-07, 06:18 AM I am not against the LA system, but many of the LA calculations aren't working.
That's mainly because the LA system is worked out be as general as possible. A drow should be LA+2 in all cases according to the LA system, but that especially screws over casters. Im almost thinking of remaking the LA system so that each race has an LA for casters and one for non-casters.

I mean, a drow is hardly a +2 LA race for a wizard, who will miss out 2d4+2 hp, an entire spell level while only gaining a +1 DC to their spells.
Treymordin
03-23-07, 07:37 AM How do drow get a +1 Dc to their spells?
Argaud
03-23-07, 07:40 AM How do drow get a +1 Dc to their spells?
The +2 racial to int, I guess.
Rump_Wrangler
03-23-07, 10:40 AM A buddy of mine is playing a Drow Psion 9 (ECL 11) in a party of 11th level characters (LA +0 races/ECL 11) and it's going swimmingly.

Another dude in the party is a Half-Celestial Human Psychic Rogue 7 (ECL 11) and that also is presenting no problems.

There seems to be a lot of talk on the boards lately (often heated) about how LA's are horrendous/unbalanced/"suck ass" etc. They seem to be working out just fine in our group.
Spikes01k
03-23-07, 06:21 PM Obviously you haven't thought about it with sufficient rigour then.

Any race that have +4 stats net including two bonus spell casting stats is obviously unsuitable for LA+0. That should be obvious to anyone.

LA+1 right there.

In addition, SR by itself is worth another LA because it protects against most spells especially at lower levels radically increasing character survivability.

That's another LA.

1+1==2

Simple as that.

-Polaris

WTF are you talkig about. Goliaths are a LA 1 not 0.
WinterPsionic
03-23-07, 06:42 PM I've found that best way to balance them out just slightly is 2 incorporate 2 of the feats in Underdark into their racial abilities, these would be Highborn Drow, and Improved Levitation. I've heard a good deal against this however regardless relatively speaking neither feat is all that powerful, and while the Racial abilities due indeed merit the framework of an LA +2 race, it's a beanpole of a frame compared to several other's that are more of an Umberhulk style build.
AMGriffin
03-23-07, 07:35 PM AMGriffin,

While I generally agree with you (as I stated earlier), the problem with Drow is that they must have an LA+2. The very presence of SR (especially 11+char level SR) mandates at least an LA of +1 right there, and the fact that Drow get unbalanced (high) stats demands at least another one.

The problem as you note is that a scalpel is needed to properly balance out the Drow for PC use, and LA is more of a sledgehammer.

-Polaris

Yeah, but I omitted SR. Their SR is what got them LA+2 however. If you want drow to be worth LA+2...I'd say give 'em some gnarlier SLAS, and remove their consitution penalty OR give them another bonus to dexterity, and then add a wisdom bonus or bump up the INT or charisma bonus to +4.

Even then I don't know if that'll really fix 'em. I think the best bet is to just simply do away with the SR and replace it with A good save against magic spells in general, and you have a pretty decent LA+1 drow.

On another note, what about implementing some kinda Racial HD or taking something from the drow racial paragon class?
WinterPsionic
03-23-07, 09:47 PM what about implementing some kinda Racial HD or taking something from the drow racial paragon class?

I can honestly say the idea of creating racial levels for a LA+2 race is a tad...extreme. While i suppose there's nothing wrong with it doing it in this way touchs on the idea that they aren't really drow.

Another problem with this idea is that they don't have racial HD. I just can't see a race this "lowly"(and I mean that in the most positive way as I love drow) really using/benefiting from racial class levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gemstone 03-20-07, 06:56 PM	Me and a buddy were discussing the LA of the drow yesterday and he made some damn fine points that the LA was incorrect and horrible screwed the drow over. Among his arguments were: At an equal level, an SR of 11+character level gives you 40% chance of being unaffected, against lower saves and lower hp you miss out spell levels, BAB, feats and skill points you gain some minor ability advantages Okay, I want you to make me like the LA of drow again, or just prove that he was right. Is the LA balanced?
Kazeofwinds 03-20-07, 08:02 PM	Depends how often magic comes up, if you have spells hurled at your face all the time, the SR is probably worth it, if all the casters in the game make the SR check on a 2, or you fight maybe one caster every 5 sessions, then the SR becomes more of a niusance that an asset, since it takes a standard action to drop it. Drow As-Is are probably a good LA+1 in any campaign that doesnt involve hordes of spellcasters with a CL like 4 levels lower than you. Honestly though, It'd probably be better to give drow a couple more ablities over reducing the LA, something along the lines of another +2 dex and one of those feats from races of faerun that gives them racial SLAs is about right.
AMGriffin 03-20-07, 08:08 PM	If you want 'em LA+1 just ice the SR and turn it into a save against magic spells.
Voldar_Mecorthio 03-20-07, 08:20 PM	AMGriffin, that's a great idea! You could use the "lesser drow" with LA +0 in the end of Players Guide to Faerun.
AMGriffin 03-20-07, 08:27 PM	Yeah, or that. But I think making Drow distinct from the other elves does more for their flavor I suppose.
Gemstone 03-21-07, 02:55 AM	If you want 'em LA+1 just ice the SR and turn it into a save against magic spells. Actually, Im not as much out to lower or increase their LA, as much as discussing if they are worth the +2 LA. I've always figured that since the CR is +1 for a drow, then the LA should be +1 too
Polaris 03-21-07, 03:14 AM	Gemstone, Your buddy is right. Drow are almost pathetically weak for LA+2. However, if you look at what they get, they are almost forced to be LA+2. 1. LA <> CR. They are completely different things. In combat, the only big thing going for the Drow is it's SR. The unbalanced mental stats and rest aren't that big a deal for a monster since you will only see it for one or two encounters. That's why you can't equate CR adjustments and LA adjustments. 2. Drow get: 120' of Darkvision Lightblindness +2 Saves vs Magic SR of 11+char-levels Elf-Abilities (with different weapons) +2 Dex, Int, Cha for -2 Con The problem with all these abilities (save the Elf-abilities, Darkvision, and Lightblindness) is that they all scale with level and they don't add to the raw fighting strength of the race (unlike bonuses to natural armor, strength, con, ect). Any race that has 50/50 SR or better for casters of it's level absolutely needs an LA. That's because especially at low levels, SR is just so useful to have. Eventually it becomes less useful, but the point of LA is to balance out increased survivability at low levels. In addition to that, any race that has unbalanced stats, especially mental stats also needs an LA in order to discourage earth-breaking spellcasters. Thus the Drow needs at least an LA of 2....and yet....the Drow gets hit twice in the hit point department....first from having two less levels, and then having -1hp/level for the levels they DO get! Result: Drow are underpowered with jaws of glass and frankly a poor choice mechanically for a PC. Possible solution: I would strongly recommend dropping the SR entirely and simply keep the +2 saves vs all magic (or make the +2 universal). What is left is in line with an average to average-minus LA+1 race....and as a PC you won't miss the SR (after 9th level, the entire party can get it anyway via spell). -Polaris
MikeN 03-21-07, 07:15 PM	Unless you're building to a specific concept, SR is really not that special. For instance, the Foe Hunter from the old Masters of the Wild put together with the Stalker of Kharash from BoED to give you great SR vs your favored enemies (anything evil :D ) Otherwise, especially with the LA hit, you're screwed if you play one of those races. If you can use buyoff, it becomes more manageable of course.
Treymordin 03-22-07, 01:01 AM	I think that Drow should be able to be played right away without the penalty.
Polaris 03-22-07, 01:10 AM	I think that Drow should be able to be played right away without the penalty. I certainly don't!! Drow have SR which while not as good as it once was, is still pretty awesome at low levels especially at the level a Drow PC gets it (11+Char level). In addition, Drow get +4 (net) stats including two +2s in spellcasting stats along with innate spells (not much granted) and the +2 saves vs all magic AND Elf abilities. Without an LA, Drow would be hands down far more potent than any other elf and that's not a good thing. The problem with drow is that the LA is a sledgehammer when a scaple is needed. -Polaris
Treymordin 03-22-07, 01:14 AM	But the drow are more poweful than regular elves, They always have been.
Finfreeze 03-22-07, 01:15 AM	Unfortunately, buyoff encourages people to take the Phrenic Creature template, which gives you equally-good spell/power resistance, far better bonuses to ability scores (net +8 and no penalties!), and scaling psi-like abilities. We're talking fission, teleport 3/day, defensive precognition 3/day, and other goodies fully augmented to your level. And even without buyoff, a phrenic human is leagues beyond a drow.
Polaris 03-22-07, 01:26 AM	But the drow are more poweful than regular elves, They always have been. Of course, and as such they merit an LA, QED. -Polaris
Kadasbrass 03-22-07, 03:33 AM	I never understood why drow needed to be more powerful then regular elves... Its a cool race but doesn't need the stuff that makes it a LA race.
Gemstone 03-22-07, 04:37 AM	I never understood why drow needed to be more powerful then regular elves... Its a cool race but doesn't need the stuff that makes it a LA race. The largest problem with the drow is that they have abilities that merits LA. The ability to use their Spell-like abilities and their SR (while low indeed), merits LA. They've tacked on the ability score adjustments mostly to merit the increase of LA
Kadasbrass 03-22-07, 06:05 AM	The largest problem with the drow is that they have abilities that merits LA. The ability to use their Spell-like abilities and their SR (while low indeed), merits LA. They've tacked on the ability score adjustments mostly to merit the increase of LA Yeah but why do they need SR, Spell-likes, and unbalanced ability scores?
Gemstone 03-22-07, 07:30 AM	Yeah but why do they need SR, Spell-likes, and unbalanced ability scores? Ever read a book that incorporates drow? They have spell-like abilities, SR and other stuff that are readily worked into the game :)
Necromas 03-22-07, 07:36 AM	They are worth the 2 LA simply because the spell resistance can be a dramatic advantage. Now, if in your campaign all the casters can easily beat the SR, or enemies who are casters are rare, then just house-rule it. But when they make a race they have to tailor it to different possible campaigns, and with that in mind they couldn't give it 1 LA because then they'd be overpowered in games where the average encounter has a magic user in it.
Treymordin 03-22-07, 09:00 AM	Unfortunately, buyoff encourages people to take the Phrenic Creature template, which gives you equally-good spell/power resistance, far better bonuses to ability scores (net +8 and no penalties!), and scaling psi-like abilities. We're talking fission, teleport 3/day, defensive precognition 3/day, and other goodies fully augmented to your level. And even without buyoff, a phrenic human is leagues beyond a drow. What is this template of which you speak?
Finfreeze 03-22-07, 10:36 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm That has info on the template.
Gemstone 03-22-07, 10:46 AM	Would increasing their SR to 13+character level affect gameplay to much?
Kadasbrass 03-22-07, 02:45 PM	Ever read a book that incorporates drow? They have spell-like abilities, SR and other stuff that are readily worked into the game :) More to the point, why does a cursed elven race need to be magically stronger then regular elves? My point isn't on them having an LA but on why do they have the abilities to make them LA in the first place.
Rogue Shadows 03-22-07, 03:40 PM	Because it's cool. In-game, it's because thy bred them into existance, or else they were a gift from their divinities. For example, the +2 Int and +2 Cha is because drow have bred for intelligence and force of personality. Eugenics.
Kadasbrass 03-22-07, 03:54 PM	Because it's cool. In-game, it's because thy bred them into existance, or else they were a gift from their divinities. For example, the +2 Int and +2 Cha is because drow have bred for intelligence and force of personality. Eugenics. Yet regular elves require not the same abilities?
Polaris 03-22-07, 04:35 PM	More to the point, why does a cursed elven race need to be magically stronger then regular elves? My point isn't on them having an LA but on why do they have the abilities to make them LA in the first place. Because it's a Sacred Cow at this point. You aren't going to get a better answer than that. The abilities that give the Drow an LA these days have been included in one form or another ever since the Drow were first introduced as monsters way back in early first edition. Moreover, these abilities have been replicated and included in so many versions of player-character drow (of both first and second edition) that the abilities have come to be an expected part of what defines a Dark Elf as a Dark Elf in DnD. This isn't true for other RPGs, but in DND if you took these abilities away, the race would no longer be accepted as drow by the DnD community as a whole. I think one might get away with removing SR (since prior editions had that decay once coming to the surface), but that's about it. -Polaris
AMGriffin 03-22-07, 06:18 PM	Drow are not worth the LA+2. The very fact they have a constitution penalty and NOTHING that really serves to defend them (say for spell resistance) is a major cripple to Drow. They'll be pretty good if you're just fighting spell happy enemies (And I'm giving drow the benefit of the doubt here), but try having a drow fight against an ogre or an orc, or some big brute who relies on their muscles over magic. Mr. Ogre doesn't care much for magic, he just likes to make smash. He smash drow real easy. To make matters worse, spellcasters generally aren't wise to have LA, and drow in general have only +2 bonuses to intelligence and Charisma. I'm really seeing something similar to the problem of the monk, even though they've got tons of abilities, they're generally ill-suited to do most tasks. Like I said, just removing the SR and will save bonus and replacing it with a +4 on saves against Magic spells in general would make drow quite balanced at LA+1
Polaris 03-22-07, 10:57 PM	AMGriffin, While I generally agree with you (as I stated earlier), the problem with Drow is that they must have an LA+2. The very presence of SR (especially 11+char level SR) mandates at least an LA of +1 right there, and the fact that Drow get unbalanced (high) stats demands at least another one. The problem as you note is that a scalpel is needed to properly balance out the Drow for PC use, and LA is more of a sledgehammer. -Polaris
Treymordin 03-22-07, 11:56 PM	If I remember they got the SR from their exposure to the radiation in the Underdark and lost if they stayed away too long.
Polaris 03-23-07, 12:06 AM	If I remember they got the SR from their exposure to the radiation in the Underdark and lost if they stayed away too long. That used to be the case in first and second edition. Drow keep their SR in 3E now no matter what. It's a racial blessing of Lloth IIRC. In the same way Drow gear no longer deteriorates in sunlight. -Polaris
Spikes01k 03-23-07, 12:08 AM	Gemstone, Your buddy is right. Drow are almost pathetically weak for LA+2. However, if you look at what they get, they are almost forced to be LA+2. 1. LA <> CR. They are completely different things. In combat, the only big thing going for the Drow is it's SR. The unbalanced mental stats and rest aren't that big a deal for a monster since you will only see it for one or two encounters. That's why you can't equate CR adjustments and LA adjustments. 2. Drow get: 120' of Darkvision Lightblindness +2 Saves vs Magic SR of 11+char-levels Elf-Abilities (with different weapons) +2 Dex, Int, Cha for -2 Con The problem with all these abilities (save the Elf-abilities, Darkvision, and Lightblindness) is that they all scale with level and they don't add to the raw fighting strength of the race (unlike bonuses to natural armor, strength, con, ect). Any race that has 50/50 SR or better for casters of it's level absolutely needs an LA. That's because especially at low levels, SR is just so useful to have. Eventually it becomes less useful, but the point of LA is to balance out increased survivability at low levels. In addition to that, any race that has unbalanced stats, especially mental stats also needs an LA in order to discourage earth-breaking spellcasters. Thus the Drow needs at least an LA of 2....and yet....the Drow gets hit twice in the hit point department....first from having two less levels, and then having -1hp/level for the levels they DO get! Result: Drow are underpowered with jaws of glass and frankly a poor choice mechanically for a PC. Possible solution: I would strongly recommend dropping the SR entirely and simply keep the +2 saves vs all magic (or make the +2 universal). What is left is in line with an average to average-minus LA+1 race....and as a PC you won't miss the SR (after 9th level, the entire party can get it anyway via spell). -Polaris Thats funny that almost sounds as powerful as a goliath. hmmm. Just think about it.
Polaris 03-23-07, 12:18 AM	Thats funny that almost sounds as powerful as a goliath. hmmm. Just think about it. Obviously you haven't thought about it with sufficient rigour then. Any race that have +4 stats net including two bonus spell casting stats is obviously unsuitable for LA+0. That should be obvious to anyone. LA+1 right there. In addition, SR by itself is worth another LA because it protects against most spells especially at lower levels radically increasing character survivability. That's another LA. 1+1==2 Simple as that. -Polaris
Argaud 03-23-07, 03:23 AM	Obviously you haven't thought about it with sufficient rigour then. Any race that have +4 stats net including two bonus spell casting stats is obviously unsuitable for LA+0. That should be obvious to anyone. LA+1 right there. In addition, SR by itself is worth another LA because it protects against most spells especially at lower levels radically increasing character survivability. That's another LA. 1+1==2 Simple as that. -Polaris Yes, that is how it is calculated. But see, I have seen drow in play in a party and they are very weak for their level. The problem, I think, comes from scaling. LA+2 is far more than LA+1 and the abilities gained to go from +1 to +2 need to be worth quite a bit. Most folks viewing the drow follow the path you have taken. Fist they see the ability, saves and other bonus, and say LA+1, and they are right. Then they see the level +11 SR and say "just that is worth LA+1" and they are right too. But in the LA system 1+1 is not 2. If we take a normal elf and give him SR=level+11 we have a LA+1 creature. If on top of that we add some minor ability bonus, some random daily slas of low level, mostly harmless spells and some minor other stuff... the LA of the creature does not grow to +2, the bonuses are just not worth enough to raise that +1 to +2. I am not against the LA system, but many of the LA calculations aren't working.
Gemstone 03-23-07, 06:18 AM	I am not against the LA system, but many of the LA calculations aren't working. That's mainly because the LA system is worked out be as general as possible. A drow should be LA+2 in all cases according to the LA system, but that especially screws over casters. Im almost thinking of remaking the LA system so that each race has an LA for casters and one for non-casters. I mean, a drow is hardly a +2 LA race for a wizard, who will miss out 2d4+2 hp, an entire spell level while only gaining a +1 DC to their spells.
Treymordin 03-23-07, 07:37 AM	How do drow get a +1 Dc to their spells?
Argaud 03-23-07, 07:40 AM	How do drow get a +1 Dc to their spells? The +2 racial to int, I guess.
Rump_Wrangler 03-23-07, 10:40 AM	A buddy of mine is playing a Drow Psion 9 (ECL 11) in a party of 11th level characters (LA +0 races/ECL 11) and it's going swimmingly. Another dude in the party is a Half-Celestial Human Psychic Rogue 7 (ECL 11) and that also is presenting no problems. There seems to be a lot of talk on the boards lately (often heated) about how LA's are horrendous/unbalanced/"suck ass" etc. They seem to be working out just fine in our group.
Spikes01k 03-23-07, 06:21 PM	Obviously you haven't thought about it with sufficient rigour then. Any race that have +4 stats net including two bonus spell casting stats is obviously unsuitable for LA+0. That should be obvious to anyone. LA+1 right there. In addition, SR by itself is worth another LA because it protects against most spells especially at lower levels radically increasing character survivability. That's another LA. 1+1==2 Simple as that. -Polaris WTF are you talkig about. Goliaths are a LA 1 not 0.
WinterPsionic 03-23-07, 06:42 PM	I've found that best way to balance them out just slightly is 2 incorporate 2 of the feats in Underdark into their racial abilities, these would be Highborn Drow, and Improved Levitation. I've heard a good deal against this however regardless relatively speaking neither feat is all that powerful, and while the Racial abilities due indeed merit the framework of an LA +2 race, it's a beanpole of a frame compared to several other's that are more of an Umberhulk style build.
AMGriffin 03-23-07, 07:35 PM	AMGriffin, While I generally agree with you (as I stated earlier), the problem with Drow is that they must have an LA+2. The very presence of SR (especially 11+char level SR) mandates at least an LA of +1 right there, and the fact that Drow get unbalanced (high) stats demands at least another one. The problem as you note is that a scalpel is needed to properly balance out the Drow for PC use, and LA is more of a sledgehammer. -Polaris Yeah, but I omitted SR. Their SR is what got them LA+2 however. If you want drow to be worth LA+2...I'd say give 'em some gnarlier SLAS, and remove their consitution penalty OR give them another bonus to dexterity, and then add a wisdom bonus or bump up the INT or charisma bonus to +4. Even then I don't know if that'll really fix 'em. I think the best bet is to just simply do away with the SR and replace it with A good save against magic spells in general, and you have a pretty decent LA+1 drow. On another note, what about implementing some kinda Racial HD or taking something from the drow racial paragon class?
WinterPsionic 03-23-07, 09:47 PM	what about implementing some kinda Racial HD or taking something from the drow racial paragon class? I can honestly say the idea of creating racial levels for a LA+2 race is a tad...extreme. While i suppose there's nothing wrong with it doing it in this way touchs on the idea that they aren't really drow. Another problem with this idea is that they don't have racial HD. I just can't see a race this "lowly"(and I mean that in the most positive way as I love drow) really using/benefiting from racial class levels.