Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ewancummins 07-31-07, 12:42 AM	Is it doable? I'm looking at something with Large size, attendant stat adjustments, and nothing much else. Favored class would not be a martial class [this might help with balance].
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-31-07, 12:48 AM	Is it doable? I'm looking at something with Large size, attendant stat adjustments, and nothing much else. Yes, it's doable. However, you have to fudge things a bit. First, you can't have a Large (Tall) creature. The 10' reach is just too powerful of a starting ability. They need to be Large (Long), which is just like Large (Tall) but without the reach and probably with the quadruped ability. Being Large isn't a 100% beneficial ability either, it imposes a -1 penalty to attack and AC (and bonuses across the board to most other things, which is why you have to get rid of the reach to keep it viable as a LA +0 race). Second, no really good ability scores. +2 Strength will probably be the race's only ability score bonus. Third, few powerful racial traits. You cannot give them natural armor or 40' speed. They can get a few skill bonuses, and that's all. Of course, this is all on a case-by-case basis. Different abilities stack, overlap, contradict, and strengthen in very complex ways. You have to actually stat up the race before you can really say anything meaningful about its power level or the power of its individual abilities. Favored class would not be a martial class [this might help with balance]. Not really. Who's not going to play straight fighter or barbarian with this sort of thing?
Rerecros 07-31-07, 12:49 AM	Minus the extra reach, I'd say large creatures are viable for LA+0
ewancummins 07-31-07, 01:05 AM	Hmmm. Large[long] sounds like a good idea. No extra reach. Quadrapedal. Okay, I'll keep that. I see what you mean about favored class not mattering so much. I'll have to develop more on the proposed race before I decide. I'll write a race up, then post it on this thread to be PEACHed. Never written up a race in 3E before, so bear with me...
elonin 07-31-07, 06:35 AM	1/2 giant from one of the psionic books has no LA and is medium size (count as size large for grapple etc). Not sure but I recall that they have movement of 40.
Morka 07-31-07, 07:51 AM	I even suggest a -2 malus to STR. Being Quadrapedal is still powerful by itself, it gives a +4 bonus against being bull-rushed and tripped, and it increases the carrying capacity. Plus, it's a better limitation on martial classes than giving them a non-martial favored class.
Steely_Dan 07-31-07, 08:24 AM	1/2 giant from one of the psionic books has no LA and is medium size (count as size large for grapple etc). I thought the half-giant was LA +1?
Khatoblepas 07-31-07, 09:11 AM	I really don't get why people keep insisting on balancing LARGE HUMANOIDS. They're Humanoids! Ergo are affected by Enlarge Person. Huge size at ECL1? It doesn't take a genius to work that one out. If it's large, it cannot be a Humanoid, it's probably a Giant or Monstrous Humanoid, with everything that entails, just like there can't be Tiny humanoids (they're also Monstrous Humanoids or more likely Fey.) The only thing that would be acceptable would be if they became Large after a certain number of hit die, and had totally useless racial mods. And not being a humanoid helps, too.
ewancummins 07-31-07, 09:49 AM	Several good points raised here. Where can I find the quadraped ability[ I haven't got most of my D&D books here- in shipment:weep: ]? I dislike giving them a strength penalty, and will avoid doing so, if possible. Valid argument against making them Humanoid. I hadn't considered Enlarge Person.
elonin 07-31-07, 12:21 PM	I thought the half-giant was LA +1? Might be, sorry that I didn't actually check the book. Also, remeber that they are not actually size large. There is a feat that gives effective size large without reach.
Kadasbrass 07-31-07, 02:05 PM	As noted above, if you intent to allow a large humanoid without LA, then you should change when enlarge person becomes avialible. I made the half-ogre without LA for my campaign, and knew right away enlarge person would need to be resistricted... thou as a DM I was tempted by enlarged half-ogres with monkey grip just to show players why these things can't all be allowed together... Since there is a deformity feat in Heroes of Horror and few other feats might exist in other books that allow reach, I think its entierly reasonable to allow a racial feat for giving the full reach of 10 feet, thou the req should be at least 6th character level.
Rerecros 07-31-07, 02:23 PM	Might be, sorry that I didn't actually check the book. Also, remeber that they are not actually size large. There is a feat that gives effective size large without reach. No feat, powerful build is a racial ability that give most of the advantages of being large and none of the drawbacks.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-31-07, 03:11 PM	Make a race that's large, but ponderous. Large (Tall) Speed 20' Dex -4 Con +2 Low speed, and a -2 balance stat adjustment, balance out the 10' reach.
TheDragonmaster 07-31-07, 03:29 PM	Take a Human, use it's bonus feat to take Jotunbrud (Races of Faerûn, if I remember correctly) and stick to that... that's effectively large without reach... To get the reach as well, get Aberrant Blood and Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness), or Vile Deformity and Deformity (Tall) (Heroes of Horror), but that is hopefully too far from the flavor you want...
baby_kamikaize_kobold 07-31-07, 03:44 PM	Why does a large creature need to have a low speed I mean unless you plan on giving them movement like dwarves have I mean the idea of a giant that anything could outrundoes seem to worth the large size.
Wrong 07-31-07, 04:18 PM	Size Large (tall) Str +8 Con +4 Dex -8 Wis -4 Natural armor +2 Speed 30 Slow reactions : -4 to on Initiative checks and you are always considered flat-footed against opponents smaller than you. If you gain uncanny dodge as a class feature, you are no more considered flat-footed against opponents smaller than you instead of gaining the normal benefit from uncanny dodge. If you later gain the improved uncanny dodge class feature, you gain the normal benefit of uncanny dodge instead. Or Size Large (tall) Str +4 Dex -2 Wis -2 Slight Build: The physical stature of [Name of the race] lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a [Name of the race] is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the [Name of the race] is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A [Name of the race] is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A [Name of the race] can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a [Name of the race] remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
elonin 07-31-07, 06:03 PM	Size Large (tall) Str +8 Con +4 Dex -8 Wis -4 Natural armor +2 Speed 30 Slow reactions : -4 to on Initiative checks and you are always considered flat-footed against opponents smaller than you. If you gain uncanny dodge as a class feature, you are no more considered flat-footed against opponents smaller than you instead of gaining the normal benefit from uncanny dodge. If you later gain the improved uncanny dodge class feature, you gain the normal benefit of uncanny dodge instead. Or Size Large (tall) Str +4 Dex -2 Wis -2 Slight Build: The physical stature of [Name of the race] lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a [Name of the race] is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the [Name of the race] is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A [Name of the race] is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A [Name of the race] can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a [Name of the race] remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. Anyone who uses the first option is asking to be pwned by medium or smaller size rogues. My rogue would love to fight someone who is always considered flat footed. Also, am I missing something here or is the main benefit of being large (that people want) is the increased reach?
TiwazTyrsfist 07-31-07, 11:40 PM	Well, and the ability to use larger weapons, which means larger damage dice. Note: I went with the slow idea (my suggestion above) because I felt it was a blancing effect.
Nathreet 08-01-07, 12:01 AM	Good ideas posted already, time to put them together: Type: giant. Not affected by spells that affect humanoids. Hmm... this might introduce as many problems as it solves. Ability Scores: Str +2, Dex -2 Size: Large (w/ standard bonuses/penalties to grapple, hide, etc.) Reach: 5' Other: Quadraped. +4 vs. trip, etc. That's not overpowered, IMO, b/c a dwarf essential gets the same thing. Maybe it should be similar to a centuar, without the extra HD. Maybe tack on darkvision (if the concept is monstrous enough) and 1-2 minor skill bonuses. Favored Class: Again depends on the race's concept. If it's monstrous enough, I'd say barbarian.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-01-07, 12:06 AM	Several good points raised here. Where can I find the quadraped ability[ I haven't got most of my D&D books here- in shipment:weep: ]? I dislike giving them a strength penalty, and will avoid doing so, if possible. Valid argument against making them Humanoid. I hadn't considered Enlarge Person. They're never really specifically spelled out. You get a small bonus to carrying capacity, and a +4 bonus to checks to resist being tripped or bull rushed. You also are a nonhumanoid, which means that armor costs twice as much (in this case, four times as much because you're Large).
ewancummins 08-01-07, 12:26 AM	I find myself drawn to the quadrapedal concept. I have a notion of the race I want to build. I am thinking they were once enslaved by humanoids and used as brute labor/beasts of burden. They rebelled and escaped to freedom. Not much more than that. More later. Anyone else with suggestions , please post them. If you help me develop these guys, I'll give you credit when I post the final version.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-01-07, 12:48 AM	I find myself drawn to the quadrapedal concept. I have a notion of the race I want to build. I am thinking they were once enslaved by humanoids and used as brute labor/beasts of burden. They rebelled and escaped to freedom. Not much more than that. More later. Anyone else with suggestions , please post them. If you help me develop these guys, I'll give you credit when I post the final version. Oh, one more thing. Most of the time, Large (Long) creatures are tauric (i.e., shaped like a centaur). This allows them to use their hands without any problems. However, tauric creatures are usually partially animal, and as such they are Monstrous Humanoids. The Monstrous Humanoid type in and of itself isn't a very powerful trait, so this isn't a problem you should worry about for balancing the race. It's more of a technical issue you may want to pay attention to. So, when are you going to show us what it looks like? The racial description can be sketchy, all you really need help with right now is the stats, right?
ewancummins 08-01-07, 12:58 AM	I'll probably post a rough draft tomorrow night. Must sleep and work in between now and then. I'll probably go with tauric and quadrapedal, but maybe some kind of 'partial biped' would make sense? What I mean is that they would normally move on all fours, but could stand up to use their hands[ combat, manipulating tools, etc]. It might be complicated to work out, but I think it could help balance them [as well as just being different]. They'd only gain full move and stability bonus when four footed, only have full use of their forelimbs and hands for manipulation when upright and stationary[or moving at half speed]. They might have crude hands, givinga small epnatly to actions requiring manual dexterity[-2 to applicable skill checks, maybe?]. Think of a black bear, and you'll have some idea what I mean.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-01-07, 01:06 AM	I'll probably post a rough draft tomorrow night. Must sleep and work in between now and then. I'll probably go with tauric and quadrapedal, but maybe some kind of 'partial biped' would make sense? What I mean is that they would normally move on all fours, but could stand up to use their hands[ combat, manipulating tools, etc]. It might be complicated to work out, but I think it could help balance them [as well as just being different]. They'd only gain full move and stability bonus when four footed, only have full use of their forelimbs and hands for manipulation when upright and stationary[or moving at half speed]. They might have crude hands, givinga small epnatly to actions requiring manual dexterity[-2 to applicable skill checks, maybe?]. Think of a black bear, and you'll have some idea what I mean. Yep, like a bear sounds fine. It's just kind of complicated. You need to determine what happens to held items and shields when the character moves. I think it's fine to say they knuckle-walk and can hold things just fine or lope along with three limbs when they need to, so you don't really need to impose any special penalties to keep them quadrupeds.
Callix 08-01-07, 03:47 AM	First, one good reason to get Large size is to build a Monk. Increased unarmed damage and +4 to grapples makes you lethal. Secondly, if you're going tauric/bearish, try Handle Animal and Survival as racial skill bonuses (+2 each). Make 'em animalistic and the monk concept is so outlandish it'll make any twinking blatantly obvious. Personally, I think +Con rather than +Str, and maybe, much as I hate it, -Int or -Cha. Note to Wizards: Shifters would have been balanced with either one. Both was cruel. Ditto half-orcs.
Wrong 08-01-07, 08:06 AM	The normal benefits for being large instead of medium are : +8 to Strength score +4 to Constitution score - 2 to Dexterity score Natural armor +2 10 feet reach if tall. (and the usual +/- to attack, AC, Hide and grapple checks that balance themselves.) It's based on the table for size increase modifiers p°291 of the Monster Manual. If you make a Large (long) race, you only lessen the reach to 5 feet, but it's not enough to balance ability scores modifiers. If you grant a Str and Con modifier lower than +8 and +4 and a natural armor lower than 2, my point of view is that you have to justify how a Large creature can be weaker than other creatures of its size. That's why I gave the slight build trait to an example in a previous post, to justify no natural armor and classic -2/+2 modifiers to ability scores. Of course there is a strange exception I can remember : the half ogre with only +6 to Str and +2 to Con. And there's no justification to this weakness. Just to say that a Large race is hard to balance without a LA if you keep the normal Large creatures traits.
Spikes01k 08-01-07, 09:05 AM	Race: Othly These poor creatures have been a slave race for moving things and mining. They are a large race, which allows them to move things much easier; however they have been, through breeding, kept week. Racial Traits Size: Large -2 Dex -2 Int They only receive a +2 bonus to grapple checks ________________________________ How did I do? It doesn't look pretty but I think it just about gets the job done. Maybe a -2 to Int would be in order as well if it is still too powerful.
ewancummins 08-01-07, 08:56 PM	Well, I like the Othly. I'll either use them[with your permission, of course] or else come up with my own race soon.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-01-07, 10:08 PM	Race: Othly These poor creatures have been a slave race for moving things and mining. They are a large race, which allows them to move things much easier; however they have been, through breeding, kept week. Racial Traits Size: Large -2 Dex ________________________________ How did I do? It doesn't look pretty but I think it just about gets the job done. Maybe a -2 to Int would be in order as well if it is still too powerful. Overpowered. This race gets all of the benefits (and penalties) of Large size, and only suffers a small penalty to ranged attacks and AC (neither of which someone making a barbarian of this race will care about). This is a weak LA +1.
Spikes01k 08-01-07, 11:04 PM	Overpowered. This race gets all of the benefits (and penalties) of Large size, and only suffers a small penalty to ranged attacks and AC (neither of which someone making a barbarian of this race will care about). This is a weak LA +1. Ok so -2 Dex & -2 Int Do not apple size modifier to attack roles. If you could do me a small favor and add in the bonuses to being large that I miss. Large creature: Wield larger weapon
HalfMunchkin 08-01-07, 11:23 PM	HALF-GIANTS • +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Dexterity: Half-giants are tough and strong, but not too nimble. • Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person. • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-giant base land speed is 30 feet. • Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. • Fire Acclimated: Half-giants have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are accustomed to enduring high temperatures. • Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. • Naturally Psionic: Half-giants gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. • Psi-Like Ability: 1/day—stomp. Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DC is Charisma-based. • Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Ignan. • Favored Class: Psychic warrior. • Level Adjustment: +1. Start with the Half-Giant and make some adjustments.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-01-07, 11:39 PM	If you could do me a small favor and add in the bonuses to being large that I miss. Large creatures get more powerful weapons, more powerful natural weapons and unarmed strikes, better carrying capacity, a +4 bonus to grapple checks, and 10' reach. The reach is the most powerful ability.
ewancummins 08-01-07, 11:46 PM	The reach can be dealt with by making them Large[Long]. What if the forelimbs are smaller than the legs, so that the race cannot wield Large weapons, but uses Medium ones instead? Another possibility is crude hands that give penalties to attacks made with weapons or skills requing much manual dexterity.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-01-07, 11:55 PM	The reach can be dealt with by making them Large[Long]. What if the forelimbs are smaller than the legs, so that the race cannot wield Large weapons, but uses Medium ones instead? Another possibility is crude hands that give penalties to attacks made with weapons or skills requing much manual dexterity. Well, gee. If you're going to do that, there's no point in making them Large at all. It's just a penalty, due to the worse attack rolls and AC. Yeah, taking away beneficial abilities makes them weaker, and allows you to put more abilities in. However, the point is to have a Large character that's LA +0, and there are few reasons to play a character like that if you take away most of the benefits of being Large.
Spikes01k 08-02-07, 09:48 AM	Large creatures get more powerful weapons, more powerful natural weapons and unarmed strikes, better carrying capacity, a +4 bonus to grapple checks, and 10' reach. The reach is the most powerful ability. Ok how about this. I think this is pretty balanced considering that they get a -2 to two stats, one being physical, and that they have no racial feats or abilities other wise. Race: Othly These poor creatures have been a slave race for moving things and mining. They are a large race, which allows them to move things much easier; however they have been, through breeding, kept week. Racial Traits Size: Large -2 Dex -2 Int They only receive a +2 bonus to grapple checks Favorite Class: None; They are not normally classed so they unfortunately have no class that makes for easy multi classing.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-02-07, 09:23 PM	Ok how about this. I think this is pretty balanced considering that they get a -2 to two stats, one being physical, and that they have no racial feats or abilities other wise. Race: Othly These poor creatures have been a slave race for moving things and mining. They are a large race, which allows them to move things much easier; however they have been, through breeding, kept week. Racial Traits Size: Large -2 Dex -2 Int They only receive a +2 bonus to grapple checks Favorite Class: None; They are not normally classed so they unfortunately have no class that makes for easy multi classing. 10' reach, man! REACH! Even without Combat Reflexes, it's a powerful ability. You can trip with attacks of opportunity, which means an optimized Large character can pretty much negate a charge, and get up in a mage's face and smash his Intelligent head in!
Spikes01k 08-02-07, 11:43 PM	10' reach, man! REACH! Even without Combat Reflexes, it's a powerful ability. You can trip with attacks of opportunity, which means an optimized Large character can pretty much negate a charge, and get up in a mage's face and smash his Intelligent head in! Well then we will just have to test it. I think my write up is nicely balanced.
pres_man 08-03-07, 12:08 AM	See how this fits on ya. Lillend, Lesser (also known as a naga) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG168.jpg Racial Traits: *Type Monstrous Humanoid (not effected by spells that effect humanoids) *-2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom *Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. *Space/Reach: 10 feet/5 feet. *A lesser lillend’s base land speed is 20 feet and a swim speed of 20 feet. *Darkvision out to 60 feet. *As a feat a lesser lillend may get a constriction attack. With the feat, on a successful grapple check a lesser lillend does 2d4 + STR modifier. *Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Orc, Goblin, Gnome, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal. *Favored Class: Bard. *Level adjustment +0 *Note: lesser lillend's are immune to trip attacks while on the ground.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-03-07, 08:52 PM	Racial Traits: *Type Monstrous Humanoid (not effected by spells that effect humanoids) *-2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom *Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. *Space/Reach: 10 feet/5 feet. *A lesser lillend’s base land speed is 20 feet and a swim speed of 20 feet. *Darkvision out to 60 feet. *As a feat a lesser lillend may get a constriction attack. With the feat, on a successful grapple check a lesser lillend does 2d4 + STR modifier. *Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Orc, Goblin, Gnome, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal. *Favored Class: Bard. *Level adjustment +0 *Note: lesser lillend's are immune to trip attacks while on the ground. It has mental ability score bonuses. That's generally considered to be automatic LA. Otherwise, it looks good, but I'd tone down the constrict damage (1d6 sounds good, as it still gives a Monk character of this race an edge).
Spikes01k 08-03-07, 10:10 PM	It has mental ability score bonuses. That's generally considered to be automatic LA. Otherwise, it looks good, but I'd tone down the constrict damage (1d6 sounds good, as it still gives a Monk character of this race an edge). What sort of crack are you smoking??? J/K :P Grey Elves have a +2 to Int.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-04-07, 02:13 AM	What sort of crack are you smoking??? J/K :P Grey Elves have a +2 to Int. In practice, grey elf (and any other elvish subrace for that matter) wizards are more powerful in most respects compared to human wizards. This defeats the purpose of having multiple races to give players more options, as there remains no option besides the optimal one that has few significant tradeoffs. In other words, grey elves are broken. They're min-maxxed, and were never playtested adequately.
Spikes01k 08-07-07, 12:34 PM	In practice, grey elf (and any other elvish subrace for that matter) wizards are more powerful in most respects compared to human wizards. This defeats the purpose of having multiple races to give players more options, as there remains no option besides the optimal one that has few significant tradeoffs. In other words, grey elves are broken. They're min-maxxed, and were never playtested adequately. You ignored the fact that I proved you wrong. Also if you use their own system technically to be balanced should look like this: -2 str +4 int so on a diffrent note the gray elves are MORE than balanced. Esspecally sense it would take a -4 to int to get a +2 bonus to str.
LeuktheSavior 08-07-07, 12:37 PM	just use the human, take away its bonus feat, and give it large size. easy.
Spikes01k 08-07-07, 12:42 PM	just use the human, take away its bonus feat, and give it large size. easy. Personally I don't think that would really cover the bonus reach.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-07-07, 08:56 PM	You ignored the fact that I proved you wrong. Also if you use their own system technically to be balanced should look like this: -2 str +4 int so on a diffrent note the gray elves are MORE than balanced. Esspecally sense it would take a -4 to int to get a +2 bonus to str. I beg your pardon? Could you explain exactly how I said that a race with a net bonus to ability scores would be better?
Lawlicron 08-07-07, 09:12 PM	I made a large size LA+0 race a while back. Its worked for me, its a little powerful to me at early levels for my tastes but my players have enjoyed it. They seem to slip back behind the mages in power like normal though, but the large sized weapons help out later too. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=860779 But I agree, you can't give them much without a lot of drawbacks. Also, making a large race giant type is LA+1 right there, because the giant type can't be affected by a lot of spells that are supposed to hit humanoids only at early levels like hold person. Its better to let enlarge person hit them and make them larger, it'll be ok if the large fighter can be a little bigger and not suck. I think my race's ineffective reach really helps balance all the big problems of large but doesn't castrate them too much.
Wrong 08-08-07, 12:45 PM	Just make a Large race with short arms and hands, a little like Tyrannosaurus ( http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG61.jpg ). You now have a Large Race with 5 ft. reach :embarrass