Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skio 03-19-07, 08:34 AM	For the past 3 months I've been frequenting this forums, I have witnessed people complaining for various features of the official rules of DnD being 'overpowered,' 'underpowered,' 'broken' or 'unrealistic.' I am not against this; on the contrary, I believe questioning the original rules is a fertile and creative procedure and, of course, since the rules were written by people, it is natural they may contain errors (although an 'error' is sometimes a subjective term). I have noticed a peculiar thing though. Few have ever attempted to question the LA rules, and when someone asks for a LA for a new race he created, most will answer directly and unerringly, without provoking any disputes, as if the LA rules are perceived as perfect and no to be meddle with! I am currently designing a campaign setting that features a lot of homebrew races, so the issue of balance and LA comes up frequently. Working with official rules, I came to the conclusion that most races I created were not worth playing, because the LA made them virtually unplayable as PCs. As for Savage Species, I consider it to be (concerning LA, always) one of the worst books written in terms of rules, since it degrades characters and monsters into simple blocks of stats, and estimates LA only using strict mathematics and disregarding the dynamism of a character IN the game. But you all know that DnD is not merely maths; it's a procedure containing much more that die rolls and stat comparing. Is it just me? Why no one dares to doubt these rules and most consider them sacred and undisputed? Are they SO perfect? Perhaps it is time for players to start questioning these rules and their balance. What's your opinion? (Sorry for ranting)
obrysii 03-19-07, 08:41 AM	People dispute LA's all the time ... it's hard to integrate monstrous races into a system based around "LA +0" races. In Epic, it is resolved a little: many races end up having LA +0, simply due to the sheer power level involved at high level.
runestar 03-19-07, 09:21 AM	My view is that maths is perhaps the only "fair" mechanic with which LA/ECL can be adjudicated. Powerful races offer benefits over and above what normal races can provide. People should not obviously get something for nothing, and thus, if they want more benefits, they must pay the price that is LA. I agree that most of the time, LA is horrendously overpriced (with perhaps exception to a few cases). However, this does not mean that the LA mechanic is flawed, just that it has not been implemented properly. Perhaps breaking down powerful monsters into class-like progressions does take some mysticism out of them, but the point was simply to allow you to play one from lv1 onwards, rather than waiting to its ECL. Considering that no other alternative exists, I must say that it is still better than nothing, however controversial this method may be.:) True, it seems a tad retarded that a few weeks of adventuring should allow an ogre to simulate years of "natural growth". However, given the lv-based progression dnd uses, it is perhaps the best compromise, however illogical it may seem. Draconomicon tackles this issue with modest success though. I have a feeling that the LA tables are slightly overinflated. Perhaps many of the LA+1 options are not actually worth a full LA+1 by themselves (maybe a fraction), but between rounding up or down, it is obvious which is the route taken by the game designers. This implies that a combination of a few lesser special abilities may sum up to LA+1 just nicely, yet they are easily LA+3 or +4 according to SS. You may have to rectify this accordingly. On the other hand, the designers might be operating under the assumption that you will find some way of abusing a certain ability for all it is worth, so perhaps they decided to play it safe by inflating the LA a little just in case?:P LA system is far from perfect, but I find that it solves more problems that it causes, and I suppose we will just have to make do until someone can some up with a superior unifying mechanic. Many have tried, and just as many have failed. I suppose LA is here to stay, for better or worse. I am not quite sure what you mean by dynamism. Can you please elaborate? :)
Seldriss 03-19-07, 09:36 AM	If a Level Adjustment seems exagerated or underrated to you, feel free to change it (or ask your DM to do so), lowering it, or nerfing the race a bit. As said, many LA+1 don't seem to be justified. And by opposition, some LA+0 races call for a LA+1 or +2 (like the warforged). Personally, i allow my players to pay back their LA in XP.
obrysii 03-19-07, 09:37 AM	As said, many LA+1 don't seem to be justified. And by opposition, some LA+0 races call for a LA+1 or +2 (like the warforged). You mean Dwarfs, right? And just mistyped when you wrote "warforged"? Warforged are by no means LA +2! I'd reckon they'd be hard-pressed to be LA +1
DreamerInsane 03-19-07, 09:40 AM	Probably something along the lines of: Elf Wizard vs. say, Drow Beguiler. Which one do you think is better?
Kresalak 03-19-07, 09:49 AM	Level Adjustment is among the worst mechanics introduced to the game. It serves only to, quite literally, make monstrous races unplayable. That is the actual intent of the mechanic, to make sure that monsters are "rare" by making anyone who wants to play one pay first for the monster HD, then for the special abilities, then for the ability modifiers, and then for the SUM of all of those. This ends up making a Succubus, who is CR 7, having a level adjustment of +6, which means you can play one at level 12. This means that you're expected to face things like Glabrezu or Storm Giants.
runestar 03-19-07, 10:01 AM	And a succubus PC is well worth the ECL12 you must pay, IMO.:)
Leo 03-19-07, 10:04 AM	A sucubbus in the hands of a player, with lv 12 money for equipment and a party to back her up. The basics races have little bonus and that's it. Even if you used slow progression, monsters characters would become much stronger than normal races if it wasn't for LA. Monsters have various powerfull abilities. And then they'll still get the class abilities on top of it.. Allowing you to play a monster whitout somekind of heavy penalization is just asking for powergamers to break games. If LA wasn't so high, nowadays we would have threads like: "OMG gnols are the pnwrz" "Taking dwarf as race is like shooting yourself in the foot. Ogre magi is much better" "Help me make humans worth playig" "Gold or Red dragon for my 1st level druid?"
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 10:10 AM	Level adjustment is fine as a concept, it's just that the implementation has been terrible because of the rampant overcosting of most races. (There are a few which actually work out well, but they're the exception.) It isn't helped by the fact that supplements generally aren't allowed to contradict the core, which would have allowed some of these mis-costings to be corrected in books like the "Races of..." series.
runestar 03-19-07, 10:14 AM	It isn't helped by the fact that supplements generally aren't allowed to contradict the core, which would have allowed some of these mis-costings to be corrected in books like the "Races of..." series. Or in the very least, the designers simply couldn't be bothered to...:P
Kresalak 03-19-07, 11:38 AM	And a succubus PC is well worth the ECL12 you must pay, IMO.:) Are you serious? What the hell does a Succubus get that's worth 12 levels of Rogue or Wizard?
Leo 03-19-07, 12:03 PM	Believe me, the op boards would find a way to break LA to hell if they were lower.
enygmatic_me 03-19-07, 12:08 PM	The LA mechanic isn't a problem as much as the interpretations on what exactly a power, ability, or feature is worth is. Everyone differs on the value of what a plus to an ability score is worth. The DMG has guidelines for it, but several people (myself included) don't agree with them. You will find people that say that Powerful build is worth an LA+1 by itself, and others who say that it is a good ability but not quite a +1 alone. It all boils down to interpreting the features and this is, if anywhere, where the LA mechanic has it's flaw.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 12:22 PM	These are some LA +0 races you can find in the Monster Manual. They are better than many of the LA +1 races in that same book. Deep Halfling +2 Dex, -2 Str Small size 20 foot speed +1 bonus on all saving throws +2 bonus on saves vs fear +1 bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings +2 bonus on Listen checks Darkvision 60 feet Stonecunning +2 bonus on Appraise and Craft Forest Gnome +2 Con, -2 Str Small size 20 foot speed Low-light vision Familiarity with gnome hooked hammers +2 bonus on saves vs Illusions +1 DC on illusion spells +1 bonus on attacks vs kobolds, goblinoids, orcs, and monstrous humanoids +4 dodge bonus to AC vs giants +2 bonus on Listen and Craft (Alchemy) Dancing lights, ghost sound, and prestidigitation 1/day Pass Without Trace at will as a free action, self only Can speak a language that allows communication with forest animals +4 bonus on Hide checks +4 bonus on Hide checks in wooded areas
skio 03-19-07, 01:21 PM	I tottaly agree that the LA is not inherently a bad mechanic and it is necessary when adapting powerful races, but the interpretation of an ability may vary from player to player. Let's not forget however, that LA was designed for to convert MONSTERS to PLAYER RACES. When you create a new race (especially if it is considered a 'standard' race in your setting) you cannot simply use the exisisting, 'inflated' (as you called it and I second) LA rules! A new approach into this must be devised to make the race as desirable and playable as a human or elf. As for the dynamism I mentioned, I mean that the power of an ability is more than mere numbers; it has to do with the use within the game. An example: I have give to one of my homebrew races a 20-feet blindsight, which is a great power by itself. The catch here is that the races is BLIND, and the ability intents to make the PC playable (it has no other means to perceive surroundings). Yet many among my rule-experience friends complained that the race was to powerful with this ability and should have LA at least +1! They completely disregarded the handicaps of this race that, IMO, completely balance blindsight so no need for an LA! Let me clarify this, however: my contradiction is not with the rules themselves. WotC created them for a specific reason and I do not blame them for anything. After all THEY are the first to say, as you said yourselves, 'if you cannot work with something, change it to fit your purposes.' My contradiction is to those that insist on calculating LAs for homebrew PLAYER races using the rules, failing to see their defects on the specific task. And to the fact that no one seems to try to find these defects.
EvilVegan 03-19-07, 02:18 PM	I personally create new XP charts for creatures with LA. It works out to an XP penalty for a few levels until they're behind by a certain amount of XP, usually equal to the LA buyoff. I use a percentage based off the LA. For instance my wife is playing a half-giant paladin. It is LA +1. For the first 10 levels she needs +10% per level until she reaches 3000 XP behind everyone else (the LA buy off). This makes it slower for her to gain at low level and then faster at high levels. This makes sense to me because a half-giant should be relying on natural strength to begin with and not learning as quickly, then as she develops into her talent she learns to rely on training and skill. It never made sense that a drow wizard is 2 levels lower than a halfling wizard when they're supposed to be badass casters. Anyway her xp chart was 0 1100 100 behind at 2nd 3300 300 behind at 3rd 6600 600 behind at 4th 11000 1000 behind at 5th 16500 -break point, she's at 1500 above everyone now starts getting easier 24000 2000 33400 2400 43700 2700 54900 2900 67000 3000 My friend got gored by a were-boar and wanted to keep the LA until he gets to a level where he's immune to disease (and effectively cured). He got bitten at 4th level. It is LA +3 for lycanthropy, so that's a 30% per level. It is normally about 9000 XP to buy off 3 LA and it takes a longer time than +1. So he was at 6000 XP and needed 4000 more XP to get to 5th level, so now he magically needs 1200 more XP than before. 11200 - 1200 behind at 5th 17700 - 2700 behind at 6th 25500 - 4500 behind at 7th 34600 - 6600 behind at 8th Immune to lycanthropy now! UH OH! Now he gets to level 30% faster than everyone else until he's caught up. well. . . technically it's just reverse of the above. 40500 - 4500 behind at 9th 47700 - 2700 behind at 10th 56500 - 1500 behind at 11th 67200 - 1200 behind at 12th 78000 - caught up now. Now this just works because I KNOW he's going to lose the LA at some point, if it was different I'd make a completely different chart. Also I adjust LA depending on synergy. If someone is wanting to play a feral bard or ogre wizard or something else equally poor in decision making I'd lower the LA.
Jaxgaret 03-19-07, 04:07 PM	Are you serious? What the hell does a Succubus get that's worth 12 levels of Rogue or Wizard? Not sure if it's worth it... but that +8 Cha mod can be, if used properly, a huge boon. Not to mention ethereal jaunt/greater teleport at will, multiple abilities that make the Succubus deadly in one-on-one combat, good-to-excellent spell resistance, immunities/resistances/DR, telepathy, decent natural flight, top notch spot/listen bonuses. Also, one thing Succubi can do is summon a Vrock (equivalent of Summon Monster VIII) with a 30% chance of success 1/day. Then that Vrock can attempt to summon another Vrock with a 35% chance of success. There are going to be lots of days where this is useless. But if the Succubus keeps it up, and remembers to use the free summon every day... there's going to be a day where those Vrocks add up. And then it's Greater-Teleport-to-someone-who-needs-a-beating time.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 04:15 PM	Not sure if it's worth it... but that +8 Cha mod can be, if used properly, a huge boon. Not to mention ethereal jaunt/greater teleport at will, multiple abilities that make the Succubus deadly in one-on-one combat, good-to-excellent spell resistance, immunities/resistances/DR, telepathy, decent natural flight, top notch spot/listen bonuses. Deadly in combat? At level 12? You know that a Succubus is CR 7, right? How is a 6 HD creature supposed to fight a Cloud Giant? The SR is 18. It doesn't scale. 18. At level 12. Also, one thing Succubi can do is summon a Vrock (equivalent of Summon Monster VIII) with a 30% chance of success 1/day. Then that Vrock can attempt to summon another Vrock with a 35% chance of success. There are going to be lots of days where this is useless. But if the Succubus keeps it up, and remembers to use the free summon every day... there's going to be a day where those Vrocks add up. And then it's Greater-Teleport-to-someone-who-needs-a-beating time. The duration of Summon is 1 hour, and Summoned creatures can't summon more creatures for 1 hour. Guess what that means?
The_Basilisk 03-19-07, 04:28 PM	Some monsters just don't work well as players (I guess thats the whole purpose of LA) I was thinking an Illithid wizard or sorc would be cool. Hmm, with 8 racial HD and something like a LA +7, I could take my first level of wizard. Ok, so I have a rediculouly high intelligence, but I can cast 1st level spells at ECL 16.....not so good. And at ECL 16, my mind blast save DC is 17....so EVERYTHING will pass. Even the barbarians. I guess I'll have to be really lucky and try to eat the brains of the guy flinging 8th level spells at me.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-19-07, 04:39 PM	Just like with determining anything new in the game, compare it to existing things. Want to know the LA of a new PC race, compare it to other PC races. Don't use monster races, use PC ones. If it is better than a LA +0 look at LA +1, still better than that, move on up. That is what I did for my homebrewed races.
EvilVegan 03-19-07, 04:45 PM	Deadly in combat? At level 12? You know that a Succubus is CR 7, right? How is a 6 HD creature supposed to fight a Cloud Giant?With the rest of her party! But lets see. . . at will charm monster DC 22? Thats a 12 or worse, 55% chance to fail. With flight and DR they'd probably just charm them. Then they'd charm the next one. Then the next one. Then they'd have an army of cloud giants and could take out CR 20 things while being a CR 7. Solo.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 04:59 PM	Oh wow, they can use a 4th level spell. That makes people friendly (not helpful). That's totally something that a Bard couldn't do better at level 7. I mean, it's not like Diplomacy does all that better, but permanent and with no save, right? Oh.
WayneTheGame 03-19-07, 05:02 PM	Didn't the designer of Savage Species basically come out and say "Yeah, we intentionally made it so playing monster races made you suck, so people wouldn't WANT to play them."? That about sums it up. LA/ECL is designed to PUNISH you for wanting to play something that isn't a core race.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 05:08 PM	Didn't the designer of Savage Species basically come out and say "Yeah, we intentionally made it so playing monster races made you suck, so people wouldn't WANT to play them."? That about sums it up. LA/ECL is designed to PUNISH you for wanting to play something that isn't a core race. You're correct, sir! Here's the original quote, in fact. The assumption here is that "Racial HD are a bad thing, as they do not provide class effects, and generally are weaker than equivalent classed HD." As Canamrock has pointed out in his LA Law thread on this board, racial HD buy monster abilities that classes don't have like natural armor, better ability scores, breath weapons, spell-like abilities, and so forth. I know everyone who reads the preceding paragraph will argue that you're paying for something twice - once with racial HD (which do you get you BAB and saving throw bonuses just like character levels) and once with LA. You're right. That's the real challenge: Balancing racial HD vs. LA. You're goal is an acceptable ECL. Which, of course, raises what may be the core issue: What's "acceptable"? For many people on these boards, an acceptable ECL is one that makes the monster PC roughly as viable as the standard race PC. Most people acknowledge some urge to power game, and most people acknowledge that they're willing to err on the low side for ECL because they or their players will play the role to the hilt and the role-playing drawbacks of the race will have a real effect in the campaign. I don't think anyone needs me to tell them to lower ECLs if that works better in their game - come on. We play RPGs. We always house rule things. The design guidance that I had was to make ECLs slightly worse than playing a standard race character. Otherwise all the Wizards of the Coast campaign worlds (it's been almost a year and I still want to say "our") become invalid. Look at them. Dragonlance, FR, and even Greyhawk are populated almost entirely by standard race characters. Not just the RPG products, but the books as well. In order to maintain that racial balance, we provided a mechanical reason for standard race characters to be more common. You can disagree with that. I'm not sure I agree with it anymore. I'm not arguing one way or the other. Nor am I claiming that the job we did on SS was perfect (I've complained enough in the past about errors that crept in at various points after I left the process). I'm just pointing out that if you change that underlying assumption about campaign worlds, there's a ripple effect on ECLs.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 05:14 PM	It's funny that the quote proclaims how badly the official settings would be impacted; Eberron considers many of those monstrous races (certainly the humanoids) to be standard and that they should be equally playable - but oops, they were deliberately munged to make them not.
EvilVegan 03-19-07, 05:20 PM	Oh wow, they can use a 4th level spell. That makes people friendly (not helpful). That's totally something that a Bard couldn't do better at level 7. I mean, it's not like Diplomacy does all that better, but permanent and with no save, right? Oh.I mean, it's not like the challenge is overcome and it was done without skill checks that can't be done once combat has begun? Oh.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 05:22 PM	Except that if that combat has already begun then the succubus is probably a spattered puddle of goo on the ground because her HPs vs the opponent's damage are beyond pathetic.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 05:23 PM	I mean, it's not like the challenge is overcome and it was done without skill checks that can't be done once combat has begun? Oh. Huh? Oh, I get it now-you don't know the rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm)
EvilVegan 03-19-07, 05:40 PM	You're correct, sir! Here's the original quote, in fact. The problem with that quote is that it assumes that all creatures everywhere will gain class levels if not for LA! A monstrous ogre has racial hit die and a level adjustment, but this doesn't have anything to do with the number of ogres in the world, it only affects the number of PC ogres in the world. If WoTC is worried that their campaign worlds will fill up with monsters if not for LA they need to learn how breeding works. There may be some monstrous creatures out there with PC class levels, but just like humans they are the exception to the rule and most monsters will be npc type monsters. Anyway, in most of my games I ignore LA (to a degree). Yes this makes ogres all smashy at fighting things. THEY SHOULD BE! An ogre that spends as much time training as a human should be MUCH BETTER AT FIGHTING than a human to the degree that they trained + the degree that ogres are naturally better. Aside from intelligence concerns there is no reason a motivated ogre couldn't learn as much as a similarly motivated human, except for the knack humans have at feats and skills... But if a player wanted to play an ogre fighter or barbarian I would work out some sort of progression of substitution levels If and only if the other players weren't equally beefy/advanced. If the party is a minotaur monk, an ogre barbarian, a succubus sorcerer, and a nymph cleric more power to them. I'll manage. The RP is where it's at anyway any more.
EvilVegan 03-19-07, 05:41 PM	Huh? Oh, I get it now-you don't know the rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) Huh? Oh, I get it now-you use sarcasm to ignore the completely correct point because you don't have a real rebuttal.
Argaud 03-19-07, 06:00 PM	Are you serious? What the hell does a Succubus get that's worth 12 levels of Rogue or Wizard? 6d8 + con hp All good saves 72 + int bonus*9 skill points for racial skills (Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival and Use Rope +1) with a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. Permanent tongues. Change shape at will (Small or Medium humanoids only). Energy Drain at will (with a grapple) followed by an automatic DC25+ suggestion spell. Spell-like abilities at will: charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). CL12. DCs based in her (uber) charisma. Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft. Natural weapons (2 claws) + 9 natural armor. Winged flight 50' (average) Summon Demon: 1 vrock with a 30% chance of success once a day. Equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. +2 str, +2 dex, +2 con, +6 int, +4 wis, +16 cha Her hp suck, but with an elite array and the gear of a level 12 character they aren't so bad. Charisma is going to be about 34 at level 12, with DCs for the constant barrage of Suggestions and Charm Monsters of 27 and 26, which very few CR12 encounters can handle. She is almost impossible to hurt due to high AC, DR and at will Ethereal Jaunt and Teleport. This "lady" is a dangerous ECL12 party member!
enygmatic_me 03-19-07, 06:19 PM	6d8 + con hp All good saves 72 + int bonus*9 skill points for racial skills (Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival and Use Rope +1) with a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. Permanent tongues. Change shape at will (Small or Medium humanoids only). Energy Drain at will (with a grapple) followed by an automatic DC25+ suggestion spell. Spell-like abilities at will: charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). CL12. DCs based in her (uber) charisma. Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft. Natural weapons (2 claws) + 9 natural armor. Winged flight 50' (average) Summon Demon: 1 vrock with a 30% chance of success once a day. Equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. +2 str, +2 dex, +2 con, +6 int, +4 wis, +16 cha Her hp suck, but with an elite array and the gear of a level 12 character they aren't so bad. Charisma is going to be about 34 at level 12, with DCs for the constant barrage of Suggestions and Charm Monsters of 27 and 26, which very few CR12 encounters can handle. She is almost impossible to hurt due to high AC, DR and at will Ethereal Jaunt and Teleport. This "lady" is a dangerous ECL12 party member! Then, when she gains her next level she starts down either a PrC she qualifies for, or maybe the Beguiler or Warlock base class. With Eldritch Blast (w/Eldritch Spear) and enough open space the Succubus could stay in the air out of reach and just unleash until things are dead. In flight the only thing to fear are spells and ranged weapons and at the range Eldritch Spear gives Eldritch Blast some spells might not reach and most non-bow ranged weapons are taking hefty penalties.
Argaud 03-19-07, 06:36 PM	Deadly in combat? At level 12? You know that a Succubus is CR 7, right? How is a 6 HD creature supposed to fight a Cloud Giant? With the gear of a level 12 adventurer the succubus AC is around 28-30. +9 from natural armor. Cloud giant has +22 to hit with his weapon. Needs a ~16. If he hits he does 4d8+8 damage (average 22) to a the succubus, which will have 50-60 hp. Suggestion: "How do you dare to attack me? I am a polymorphed ancient dragon. Surrender now and I will spare your life." Save is DC26. Will save of the giant +10. 75% of possibilities he surrenders right there. The rest of the day he is the succubus bodyguard, utterly convinced through Charm Monster and several suggestions that the very fate of the universe depends on him being a faithful servant for "just a couple days". Poor guy is only CR11, he had no chance.
mythSSK 03-19-07, 07:06 PM	Huh? Oh, I get it now-you don't know the rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm)Huh? Oh, I get it now. *You* don't know the rules. It's a DC 60 Diplomacy check to move a hostile creature from Hostile to Friendly as a full-round action. A 12th level bard has what, a +40 modifier at most? He barely stands a chance compared to the succubus. You lose.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 07:18 PM	Check again. Hostile to Friendly is a DC 45 check, which a L12 bard certainly has the resources to manage if he cares to. Hostile to Helpful is DC 60, but getting them to Friendly is going to be sufficient in almost every circumstance. For that matter, just getting them to Indifferent (DC 35 as a full round action) is probably going to be enough in many cases. Of course, the 12th level wizard could just Dominate Person and not have to worry about convincing someone to do anything (at similar DC), or Mass Suggestion and get the whole blasted regiment of frost giants to surrender all at once. And unlike the succubus, he's not left tearing his hair out if he runs into something that's immune to [mind-affecting] effects.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 07:24 PM	Great way to not even read what I was responding to. He said Diplomacy wouldn't work once combat had started. I linked him to the rules on Diplomacy. You know what else you could be? A Beguiler. Not only do they get to cast Charm Monster (4 levels earlier than the Succubus), but they also get to cast actual level appropriate spells like Dominate Person (2 levels earlier than the Succubus is playable). Oh, and they have more skill points, since they have 6 more hit dice. And they have more hp, and a full spell list that they cast spontaneously from. By the way, Suggestion won't make you a slave and Charm only makes you Friendly. If you want an entourage of giants, you need Dominate-and guess what a Succubus can never cast?
Argaud 03-19-07, 07:35 PM	By the way, Suggestion won't make you a slave and Charm only makes you Friendly. If you want an entourage of giants, you need Dominate-and guess what a Succubus can never cast? Neither can a wizard until level 17. All those level 12 Dominate Persons? Do not work on giants. At all. The Mass Suggestion has a pitiful DC compared with the Succubus normal suggestion DC. The Succubus can cast 14,400 Suggestions or Charm Monsters every day. She does not need sleep, eat or breathe. The wizard can't Greater Teleport until level 13, can't Ethereal Jaunt until 15. He will never do it at will. He will never cast 14,400 spells in a day, not even cantrips. Edit: Diplomacy is a racial skill for Succubus, and her Cha is 13 points higher than the bard's. So even counting the bard has 6 more skill point, the Succubus can twink epic diplomacy skill checks just the same.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 07:45 PM	Except, you know, she lost 6 points from hit dice already, which puts her at a net +2. If you consider that she's also down 12 levels of possible Diplomacy enhancing classes, she won't stand a chance.
Leo 03-19-07, 08:25 PM	What's the part of "teleport at will" you didn't understand? Nobody can catch this lady. Not even the wizard can seduce the entire village to his feet. The bad girl can. Every sigle day. And flies. And energy drains. Go ahead. Try to play it. I have (tried. Stupid Gm who thinks I would make the campaign unbalanced...)
Argaud 03-19-07, 08:29 PM	Consider the roles she can fulfill in the level 12 party. Scouting: She flies at 50', can be ethereal all the day, she can change her shape, she has hide, move silently, disguise, spot and listen as racial skills. She has +8 racial to spot and listen and +4 wisdom. A ranger with 18 wisdom won't be that good! Only druids could regularly beat her skill rolls. And she never sleeps. A perfect sentinel. She has 99 skill points even with average intelligence. Party face: She has 34 charisma, bluff and diplomacy as class skills. She can spam suggestions and charm monsters all day and night. She can read minds at will. Tank: Stupid idea? She has +9 natural armor, that is 9 points of AC above her humanoid teammates, only some specialized builds can get so much protection, and she has DR10/monstersdonthaveit. She is immune or resistant to many threats her humanoid teammates find dangerous. Her only problem are the low hit points. Spellcaster: 14,400 spells/day. Sure, some monsters are immune to mind affecting spells, but if you check the lists of monsters by CR you will find those are only about 20/25% of them. The other spellcasters in the party can leave the bulk of the enchantment and mind magic to the Sucubbus and concentrate in other stuff. A clever party can easily develop a strategy based in just capturing enemies alive and let the Succubus hit them with 100+ Suggestions until they believe anything the party wants. The suggestions last 12 hours, but she never need to stop talking, and she always knows when someone makes the save (plus Detect Thoughts at will). Charm Monster lasts a long time :) Guess what? Not only she is an amazing asset to the party, she is also quite versatile.
TheDarkLord 03-19-07, 08:50 PM	LA sucks. Decent Idea, but absolutly the Worst implementation of a mechanic in the game. Glass Jaw cannons at most, Unplayable at least. Seriously, If you even challenge an LA character in a party with the correct CR, that character, 90% of the Time will Die. I don't know how that succubus got dragged into this but let's use it as an example. 33 HP's, +10 to it's save (Assuming equipment and whatnot), DC 26 for its Abilities at 12th level is pretty weak. Spellcasters will own this thing any day of the weak. God help it should someone actually enter melee with the thing. While a couple of things about it Look good on paper, any kind of challenge to it's abilities with the appropriate CR will completely destroy it. I bend over backwards to help my players create interesting concepts and Ideas, I only ask them to completely Ignore most "Monster's as PC's" type characters, I don't want the headache of trying to balance Glass Canons, and Hardly Playable peons.
Terraneaux 03-19-07, 09:00 PM	Anything the succubus can do another class can do better.
NineInchNall 03-19-07, 09:03 PM	Anything the succubus can do another class can do better. Quoted For Epic Truth. I love this stuff: For a long time, there has been a definite pro-prettiness bias in the rules of D&D. That is, elves (who are pretty) get a much better deal as player characters than do hobgoblins (who are ugly). This dates back to when races had mandatory alignments and people wanted to discourage Evil player characters from coming in and ruining games (which let's face it, a lot of evil PCs do). And while this has had the desired effect of keeping the number of orc player characters down and their impact minimal, it hasn't been good for game balance at all. Some people really want to be a gray skinned dude with shark's teeth, and they'll play whatever game mechanics are given to them. These players will be playing at the same level as other characters, and that means that they should be playing at the same power level! Really, all the unusual races are optional, so there's no purpose served in screwing them over. In the past, many races have simply been given insufficient goodies to be worth playing (Half-Orcs), or were given good enough abilities but then over-charged in levels for them so horribly as to make the character unplayable (Hobgoblins). We don't hold with that at all. If you don't want someone to play an ogre or goblin in your game, just don't let them play one. It's seriously not even a deal. Furthermore, for some reason there has been a massive fear of giving straight statistic enhancements to characters without a level adjustment. I don't even understand that, because Halflings already get all that and more. Really, a character who gets +2 to two attributes and a total of +4 to skills and darkvision isn't even impressive compared to a Deep Halfling, so the ginormous fear that people have of letting Hobgoblins and Aasimar into games is perplexing. ... Level adjustments don't work at all. Characters end up with skill rank maximums that prevent them from taking prestige classes appropriate to their level and they have hit dice that are low enough that they end up getting caught by spells like cloudkill that are designed to keep the henchmen out of a climactic battle, and so on and so forth. Furthermore, while the concept is busted, the implementation is even worse. Characters end up getting LAs assigned to them based on the sum total of their abilities (disregarding hit dice) and then having them added on to the hit dice (disregarding abilities). Monstrous creatures end up paying for rather minor abilities more than once and the end result is that characters who really aren't good at anything end up being counted as being higher level than "normal" characters who can outperform them in every way. That has to stop. In general, a monster that is built like a PC is about 1 CR better than one right out of the Monster Manual. CR really is supposed to equal Level, so we're going to be running with the races which are playable under that rubric: Powerful Monsters As PCs, or “Beholder Mages That Don’t Make Us Cry.” Monsters need to be able to be easy blends of character levels and monster stats. We know that its completely awesome to fight evil mastermind wizards that might just be beholders or giants or some other big monster, and its equally neat to play a cursed vampire warriors who’s trying to redeem his soul. Designers up to this point have attempted to stop players from doing both by making these options unplayable or “the suck”, so its time to right this wrong. To start, let us be perfectly honest about two things: We want to play monsters. We know that the current ECL (Effective Character Level), LA (Level Adjustment), monster PrCs, and monster progression systems don’t work… like, at all. Ok, now that we’ve cleared that up, we can begin. [I could get into elaborate explanations of why these separate systems don’t work, but lets just say that the flaws are self-evident if you put a PC frost giant with only Wizard levels up against an NPC frost giant with only Wizard levels and CRed at the PC’s level, or you try to play a Vampire with its +8 level adjustment and minimum character level of 5. We don’t even have to talk about the Beholder Mage, an atrocity against the DnD community in both its incarnations.] Monsters tend to be build along four kinds of design philosophies. Characters: This is the “as a character” philosophy, which makes monsters at a certain CR where they are perfectly suited to fight parties of characters at that level, but might overpower a weaker party or single character or be a total pushover to more powerful individuals or parties. Giants, gnolls, yuanti, goblinoids and other monsters who are expect to use PC-level tactics and equipment fall into this category. Glass Jaws and Sucker Punches AKA Suckers: These monsters, which we’ll just call “Suckers” for their ability to suck and sucker punch. Usually they have an extremely powerful attack that can sucker punch a party, but they have some glaring weakness that means that they will go down extremely quickly if you exploit this weakness. Sprites, with their fabulously low HPs and powerful magic are a fine example of this monster. “Closet trolls” like trolls and Pouncing dire animals fall into this category because they are extremely dangerous in enclosed spaces (better than any three fighting characters of their CR), but they die easily if you can attack them at range and stay at a distance. Puzzle Monsters: These monsters are in fact more puzzle than monster. They usually are unbeatable unless you know their one weakness, meaning that players who don’t know the right Monster Manual by heart usually die to these things. Classic examples from old editions of DnD like the Windwalkers would only die to a single spell from the spell list which you may or may not know or have on hand, but 3.x has from eased away from this level of arbitrariness. Now we have monsters like Swarms and incorporeal monsters who may be immune to all your normal weapon attacks (a killer for a party without a damage-capable spellcaster) and several kind of plants or oozes that seem to have random and crazy defenses when you attack them (like splitting into more monsters). Awesome Because Its Awesome AKA Player Killers (PKs): Some Monsters are just built to make players cry. Dragons are the classic example, as they are traditionally CRed about two to four lower than they should be, and some other monsters have also been unofficially given the [awesome] subtype, meaning that players will always remember these monsters for being Party Killers. Angels, beholders, monsters with PC spellcasting, and drow typically fall into this category. Can you see the problem with making these creatures into playable and balanced characters? Character monsters and PKs can be easily modified into playable characters by modifying raw stats, but Suckers and Puzzle Monsters need massive rewrites before they can be playable characters.
Terraneaux 03-19-07, 09:13 PM	In my campaigns, I literally ignore LA, just going by hit dice. Sure, it means that, for example, a half-fiend is going to be uber next to your regular joe human. But barring templating, the skill points and especially feat make a human stand head and shoulders above a lot of other races (planetouched, hobgoblin). And it's not exactly balanced, but DnD as a whole is not in the current ruleset, and has not really been at any point in its history. If someone wants to play something wacky and weird, go right ahead. The game is supposed to be about having fun and escaping from reality, not sitting around a table letting a DM tell you 'thou shalt not!'
enygmatic_me 03-19-07, 09:16 PM	Anything the succubus can do another class can do better. Examples please.
TheDarkLord 03-19-07, 09:44 PM	Examples please. Just going by the Core MM Succubusf compared to a 12th level character? 1. Go Nova all full spellcaster Like. 2. Deal Damage with exponential numbers. 3. Deal massive Sneak attack damage 4. Better at stealth 5. Heal 6. Withstand more than 33 HP's worth of damage? 7. Summon bigger and better baddies 8. Dominate instead of charm 9. Shapechange into bigger and better things. 10. I'm going to stop here.
NineInchNall 03-19-07, 09:58 PM	A lot of times we have the gut reaction to at-will abilities that they are super-mega-awesome-cool, forgetting that having an ability at will rather than x/day does not change the character's impact on a given encounter significantly. Having more powerful abilities, however, does.
Terraneaux 03-19-07, 10:03 PM	Interestingly, the succubus's ability to teleport at will would synergize much better with more powerful abilities only useable a limited number of times per day, due to her ability to remove herself from harm very easily.
Leress 03-19-07, 10:30 PM	With the gear of a level 12 adventurer the succubus AC is around 28-30. +9 from natural armor. Cloud giant has +22 to hit with his weapon. Needs a ~16. If he hits he does 4d8+8 damage (average 22) to a the succubus, which will have 50-60 hp. Suggestion: "How do you dare to attack me? I am a polymorphed ancient dragon. Surrender now and I will spare your life." Save is DC26. Will save of the giant +10. 75% of possibilities he surrenders right there. The rest of the day he is the succubus bodyguard, utterly convinced through Charm Monster and several suggestions that the very fate of the universe depends on him being a faithful servant for "just a couple days". Poor guy is only CR11, he had no chance. Wait a minute I thought LA doesn't count towards wealth per level. So wouldn't the succubus have gear of a 6th level character. Energy drain isn't that great since she would have to grapple and her base grapple isn't that good. How did you get the number of spell per day at 14,400
Kresalak 03-19-07, 10:47 PM	14,400 is the number of rounds in 24 hours.
Terraneaux 03-19-07, 10:56 PM	No, the succubus would have wealth as per a 12th level character.
MingT 03-19-07, 10:57 PM	Some people are saying "its not LA its the implementation!". To those people I say you are wrong. (I couldn't be bothered even TRYING to talk to the people saying that the current system is perfect and that of all potential examples the totallly busted succubus actualy totally rocks) LA, and monster hit die suck. Sure you can create (a massively underpowered) Succubus character. But you CAN'T be a succubus Fighter, or Wizard, or Cleric, or Psionic or anything. You stick class levels on that shuddering wreck of a character and what was ALREADY a tradgedy at level 12 just keeps getting worse. I mean Yikes! 12 ECL of succubus and 1 level of warlock as someone suggested, throwing level one warlock abilities at level 13 opponents? Because everyone knows level one warlocks take down CR 13 challenges all the damn time. See, you can be an all elf PARTY because elves can functionally take different character classes. You start missing out on levels (LA) and enforcing players take levels of non synergistic often NPC powered classes (monster hit die) and things go pear shaped, dire pear shaped. An all succubus PARTY fails because every party member is forced into taking 12 levels of pure suck and trying to multi class on top of that. Everyones characters look the same, none of them function, when they start looking different the ways they look different are in the new multi class functions at which they all totally, uniformly suck. And succubi are the perfect example of this situation. A Minotaur MIGHT stack with some warrior type levels not too badly, the succubus won't, a mind flayer might stack with some caster type levels, the succubus won't. Something with really low LA or monster hit die won't be so obvious in being behind the curve but succubus LA and hit die WILL be noticed, a lot. Savage species was probably the first WOTC book that genuinely did nothing but insult us players and harm the game. Any defense of it is reprehensible and any use of it is counterproductive. WOTC should issue an apology, produce a book intended for actual use and issue chumps like me who bought a copy of Screwed Species with a refund. No really, its THAT bad.
Nat_20 03-19-07, 11:10 PM	OK, Im going to blow all your heads off with this idea, and it has been proven in my game's to be the best way of doing it for lvl adjustments players... instead of just killing a number of levels for the level adjustment, i instead have the character take NPC-Commoner level... WHAAAAA OMG!!! UBER!!! It is a good way of equalizing characters who want something weird, but let them choose the class skills, or keep the racial skill the same... Anyone got an opinion on this method cuz i just know someone will criticize it somehow...
MingT 03-19-07, 11:31 PM	Anyone got an opinion on this method cuz i just know someone will criticize it somehow... Its actually better than the current system. But being basically a cosmetic variant on the current system is not significantly better. There is a simple test for whether a monsterous PC race system works. It goes like this... Can you play monster race X from level 1 to 20 as a wizard, bard, barbarian, rogue, etc... or whatever and have a viable fun character that interacts well with others? Enforced monster hit die plus enforced commoner levels equal to LA plugs into that test and shells out a big loud NO! But at least you fractionally improved the "Viable" part of it over the current system. Fractionally. For a more indepth criticism... Commoner levels are going to do only a little for keeping you up to the curve with numbers for your level and future multiclass. Take skill ranks, you do realise that class skills from your monster class AREN'T automatically class skills for your commoner levels, you probably won't be able to spend the few you get on keeping your ranks up to par because you'll already be over the cross class limit for improving skill ranks. Its similar with saves, BAB, hit points etc... but at least you get the feats and ability score upgrades you were missing out on from LA. But ultimately if you take 6 hit die of minotaur, 2 levels of commoner LA then stick on 1 level of wizard, you get a really sucky wizard who only just learnt first level spells at level 9 makes for a failed system for viable PC monsters.
mythSSK 03-19-07, 11:37 PM	Wait a minute I thought LA doesn't count towards wealth per level. So wouldn't the succubus have gear of a 6th level character.LA does count towards wealth by level. Why would an ECL 12 succubus in a party of other ECL 12's have 80% less gear?
Leress 03-19-07, 11:42 PM	LA does count towards wealth by level. Why would an ECL 12 succubus in a party of other ECL 12's have 80% less gear? Sorry my mistake just went back and read the srd
Judging Eagle 03-19-07, 11:55 PM	Believe me, the op boards would find a way to break LA to hell if they were lower. You are freagging hilarious. Nearly every single abusive build relies on one thing. Class levels. Meaning any time you trade monster dice for useful, character dice, you're losing an other level of rogue damage-meter(-ness), wizard-abusiveness, druid-everythingness, ranger-awesomness or cleric-abusivness. So, yeah, broken. So broken, that a CR 7 creature, like say a level 7 fighter, is an ECL 13 challenge. Yeah, the LA system pretty much says that. If a CR 7 fighter is a ECL 7 encounter for a party, and a Succubus is a CR 7 encounter for a party; then the CR's for both, since they're both 7 are equal. That's a safe assumption to make, right? So, since they're both good to throw at PCs, they're both good to fill a role in the party. I'd have her play the role of Party Tank. Which is hilarous, but works well. She's got DR 10/Cold Iron, has full BaB, and she's got an "out of combat" shtcik in that you can assume that she's either got a local hansom humanoid as an ally or that while adventuring she can easily have a powerful monster to guard the party while she charges the enemies. With 33 HP for a 6th lvl tank, she'll still need healing and protection from energy and magical damage, but she can weather any number of low damage attacks. Making a Succubus into a 12th lvl character, without, you know, not adding 7 hit dice to bring her total to 12 hit dice; is fragging dumb. How can saves of F +6 R +6 and W + 7 survive against 21 DC's? How can +6 BaB in what is either a Charm or Combat form gonna cut any mustard at even a casual game? Seriously, how can you make up the loss of two feats? In all honesty, we all know that Savage Species was meant to punch people who want to play a Troll or a sprite in the crotch. Also: If LA wasn't so high, nowadays we would have threads like: To which I will add, the actual answers that will arise to all of these nub posts. "OMG gnols are the pnwrz" At what? Being Hyena dudez? Hellz yeah! But they're not good at much else. What? Barbarian? Oh, whoopdee-*******-do? Barbarian is not a PC class at level 10 as it stands. Taking 10 levels of Barbarian is in short, unspeakabely stupid. Humanoid HD are even worse than that. So, imagine losing 2 "amazing" barbarian HD for two ****** 3/4 BaB humanoid HD. Yeah, I'm seeing it now. Utter garbage. Non-class HD blow and are completely for people who want flavour over power. "Taking dwarf as race is like shooting yourself in the foot. Ogre magi is much better" That's complete ********; even as a CR 8 character (8 HD ogre MAgi to bring it's HD inline with it's CR), it's a crappy PC. The Dwarf Cleric PC would utterly destroy a stock ogre mage with PC gear. Again, since monster HD, blow and are completely for people who want flavour over power. "Help me make humans worth playig" Play a Cleric, Archivist (in a permissive game), Druid, Rogue, Ranger, Psion. You are the only not-sucky character in your group now? "Gold or Red dragon for my 1st level druid?" Neither you noob. Roll a Jermalaine. They have almsot no CR and get to ride their rat companions into battlez. Yays, ppl who stand for reason: Deadly in combat? At level 12? You know that a Succubus is CR 7, right? How is a 6 HD creature supposed to fight a Cloud Giant? The duration of Summon is 1 hour, and Summoned creatures can't summon more creatures for 1 hour. Guess what that means? The answer is:"Someone is wee todd it" Aka, read the monster entry. As in, actually read what you think is so abusive, before posting it. It doesn't make you look stupid that way. MingT, solid material. You're a big gorilla ripping apart the old basket that is faulty reason. Then again I agree with you, so I'm a bit biased?
catharz 03-20-07, 12:13 AM	I was linked to this thread for lulz, and I must admit that it's delivered. Anyway, to address the OP, here is the best method I've seen yet for making playable characters out of monsters. It isn't as balanced as some others (i.e. completely retooling the monster's stats to fit the player and campaign), and it can throw up some bad results now and then, but it's still IMO the best yet (I refer to the second method listed below): Converting Monsters Into Characters: Method 1: The Easy Way Assume that a monster is a character of its CR+1(modified if it i a monster with the [Awesome] tag), and that its stat modifiers are derived from the assumption that the base monster was built using the Elite Array (highest monster stat – highest elite stat, then repeat for next lowest, etc). For level-dependant effects like skill point maxes, feat prereqs, etc, use the monster’s CR+1. Round ability stat mods down to nearest multiple of 2(negative mods up to multiple of 2), and CRs down to nearest whole number. The nice part of this method is that it is easy, fast, and you can get to playing a monster immediately without as lot of DM intervention or paperwork. The downside is that you might get an underpowered or overpowered monster character if you are not careful (like you forgot that Dragons are actually CRed two less than they should be, or that Sprites are unplayable). Here’s two examples: Minotaur. Its Base CR is 4, and add +1 for being a PC. Its stat mods are (monster-elite array) Str 19-15=+4, Con 15-14=+0(rounded down) Dex 10-13=-2 (rounded) Wis 10-12= -2 Int 10, Cha 8-10= -2 Int 8-7=+0, for a total of +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2, Cha -2 Wis, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s a level 5 PC with skill rank maxes of 8 and 6 monster HD. Frankly, it's a warrior class with a little bit of punch from natural armor, small stat mods from its size, and some fun but not good noncombat abilities. It's nothing to write home about as a 5th level character, and that's much more reasonable than the ECL 8 the MM would have you play it at. Succubus: CR 7, +1 for being a PC. Stat mods equal Cha 26-15=+10(rounded), Int 16-14=+2, Wis 14-13=+0(rounded), Str 13- 12=+2, Con 12- 10= +2, Dex 12-8=+4 for a +10 Cha, +2 Int, +2 Str, +2 Con, +4 Dex. It’s an 8th level character who is almost as good as a Warlock of its level. Generally, it’s a far better 8th level character than the than the ECL 14 the MM would have you pay. The fact that its abilities will never grow in power is offset by the fact that it has a high Cha, and so good DCs on its spell-likes. Method 2: This method is the same as Method 1, but it goes a bit further by converting HD to actually appropriate HD by giving the monster the HD that equals its CR and BAB. This corrects problems just as excess HD from giants and undead. Basically, look that the monster’s HD and BAB. What kind of HD would it need to keep about the same BAB and HPs, but would give it the appropriate number of HD to fit its CR/level (which also fixes Saves to reasonably levels). Assign it that HD, and move on with your life. Here’s an example: Fire Giant. Ok, the Fire Giant is a CR 11 as a PC, and notice that it has a BAB of 11, Great! Normally, it has 15 HD which leads to some craziness if he ever gets a Con boost and it has saves that are a little too big, so lets convert it. Lets give it 11 Barbarian HD(d12s, +1 BAB, good Fort save). We see that he keeps his BAB of 11, his HPs change from 142 to 133, and its base saves are Fort +7, Will/Ref +3 like an actual 11th level character instead of Fort +9, Will/Ref +5. Method 3: This Method is being saved for our upcoming Tome of Tiamat. Lets just say that is the version of monster progression classes that you actually wanted to be written. Here are some relatively simple character conversions: Gnoll (Minimum Level 2) Lazy Hyena men filled with awesome? Where do I sign!? Medium Size 30' movement Humanoid Type (Gnoll subtype) Darkvision 60' +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Simple & Martial Weapons, and the Flindbar. +1 level in the first Divine Spellcasting class a Gnoll takes. Scent. +1 Natural Armor. Favored Classes: Ranger and Druid Automatic Languages: Gnoll, Common Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Blink Dog, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Loxo, Orc, Sphinx, Sylvan, Worg. 2 Starting Hit Dice (2d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 5 skill points; +3 Fort Save; +1 BAB) Bugbear (Minimum Level 3) Medium Size 30' movement Humanoid Type (Goblinoid subtype) Darkvision 60' +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Shuriken, and all Rogue Weapons. +2 levels in the first Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike class a Bugbear takes. +3 Natural Armor. +4 Racial bonus on Move Silently checks. Favored Classes: Rogue and Ninja Automatic Languages: Goblin, Common Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Draconic, Elvish, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon. 3 Starting Hit Dice (3d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 6 skill points; +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will; +2 BAB) Ogre (Minimum Level 4) Giants, even the lowly Ogre, are very specialized creatures. They dominate melee at their level, and really suck at everything else. As monsters, that makes them dangerous. While their glass jaws often leave them in situations that they cannot survive or even put up a decent showing, their laser-like focus can allow them to brutalize characters higher level than themselves if the lighting is just right. As characters, though, this makes them somewhat underwhelming. The ability to win super hard in one encounter only to die horribly in the next is worth less than nothing in a campaign game. An Ogre is a vulnerable and weak character for his level, but he does shine brightly if he can sucker opponents into melee. As such, Ogres really only do well in large, highly varied parties. As long as the remaining characters have potential bases covered extremely well, the fact that a single Ogre can't always pull his weight won't matter as much. For this reason, an Ogre often makes a better cohort than he does a primary character. Large Size 40' movement Giant Type (Cold subtype) Low-light vision and Darkvision (60') +6 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -4 Charisma. +5 Natural Armor Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Martial Weapons, and Simple Weapons. Favored Classes: Barbarian and Ranger Automatic Languages: Giant, Common Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarvish, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, Terran. 4 Starting Hit Dice (4d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 7 skill points; +4 Fort, +1 Reflex, +1 Will; +4 BAB) Frost Giant (Minimum Level 10) Right out of the box, the Frost Giant is a bad dude capable of rescuing the head of state from ninjas. Based largely on Norse mythology, these bad boys are big and bad. In fact, at 15 feet tall, they are about as big as you can get and still count as a large creature. That makes it pretty hard for them to find mounts, or fit into small buildings, and do all kinds of other crap that adventurers want to do. But it's not impossible. A Frost Giant isn't a Cloud Giant, he doesn't need people to make new doors to accommodate him, he just needs special doors to get through without it being really inconvenient. A frost giant gets by in human society mostly because most people wouldn't dare mess with him. And that makes for a decent enough 10th level character. Large Size 40' movement Giant Type (Cold subtype) Low-light vision +12 Strength, +8 Constitution, +2 Wisdom +9 Natural Armor Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons, and Martial Weapons. Rock Throwing and Catching (a Frost Giant's rocks have a range increment of 120 feet). Favored Classes: Fighter and Barbarian Cold Immunity and Fire Vulnerability Automatic Languages: Giant, Common Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Dwarvish, Gnoll, Orc. 10 Starting Hit Dice (10d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 13 skill points; +7 Fort, +3 Reflex, +3 Will; +10 BAB)
Argaud 03-20-07, 01:09 AM	Just going by the Core MM Succubusf compared to a 12th level character? 1. Go Nova all full spellcaster Like. That she has infinite use of her slas is not a weakness. 2. Deal Damage with exponential numbers. Explain this one, how is "dealing damage with exponential numbers" better than what account as an infinite number of save-or-die spells? 3. Deal massive Sneak attack damage Only rogues can do this, all other classes suck? 4. Better at stealth I find difficult to see any character better at stealth than someone able to be ethereal and shapechange into any medium or small humanoid at will. 5. Heal Most classes can't heal either. 6. Withstand more than 33 HP's worth of damage? Ridiculous. That is like saying a level 12 wizard will always have 30 hit points (12d4). The Sucubbus has PC abilities and level 12 gear. She has max hp at level 1, she will have high Con and she will have hp enhancers. 7. Summon bigger and better baddies She can call a Vrock for a hour. A wizard needs to be level 17 to call a Vrock for 17 rounds. This is simply false. 8. Dominate instead of charm A wizard needs to be level 17 to try to dominate a monster. Dominate Person is only for humanoids. Again, only wizards get dominate spells. 9. Shapechange into bigger and better things. Like what? She is already better than any form the wizard or the druid can take at level 12. A caster needs to be level 17 to shapeshift into something better than a Succubus. And even then they don't get infinite use of slas. 10. I'm going to stop here. What were you trying to show us. Which is the class that at level 12 can "go nova", "Deal Damage with exponential numbers" (whatever that means), deal massive sneak attack damage, is better at stealth, heals, summons monsters more powerful than... what?, can use dominate spells at will, and can shapechange into creatures more powerful than a Succubus? None. Actually some of those things can't be done by -any- level 12 PC, much less by just one.
Archangel62 03-20-07, 01:17 AM	The problem with level adjustment is that frankly it's difficult to impliment correctly. Some races by themselves aren't a level adjustment problem, it's the hitdice that come with them. Most of the low LA races work ok, Half Giants and Goliaths are a good example. However there are also examples of poorly designed monster races. Part of it is this, I think they want to avoid a plethora of monstrous characters because of the issues that can start creeping in with some games. In a game one might want all players to be good, mature, and honest, but one must account for munchkins, cheaters, and spoilers when designing the rules to make sure that the bad people don't destroy the system for the good ones.
runestar 03-20-07, 01:46 AM	Man, I go to sleep for the night and 3 pages of discussions pop up...:P I will tackle the one regarding the succubus vs giant first. First off - the designers assigned LAs based on the assumption that you will find a way of maximizing your abilities. The succubus is geared towards a diplomacy-based campaign, as that is where she excels. In such a intrigue-filled game, spy-like characters such as the doppelganger and succubus are easily well worth their ECLs. They may fare somewhat poorer in a melee campaign, as that does not cater to their strengths. In a worst-case scenario, imagine a succubus in a game filled with undead and constructs...:weep: However, my point still stands - it is assumed the monstrous race you choose will be custom-tailored to the game you are playing. As such, you are assumed to play a monster whose strengths will be maximized in the setting you are playing. For example, it is assumed that you will play an ogre only in a melee-slugfest, and not a game revolving around political and court intrigue. The inverse is true for the succubus. A succubus was set at ECL12 as she is deemed to be the equivalent of a 12th lv bard or rogue when it comes to diplomacy-oriented situations. And in such a setting, she certainly excels at it, perhaps even moreso than any other class. On the flip side, imagine the absurdity of someone claiming that an ogre should be ECL2 because he sucks at conversing with the king.;) Likewise, the ghaele has a LA of +10 because of its glut of SLAs useable at will. If you are playing a marathon game with few chances of resting, CLW and aid at will are invaluable to keeping your party at 101% strength, and they merely represent the tip of the iceberg concerning a ghaele's true prowess. However, if your dm allows you to rest after every battle you face, then clearly it is not one of the better choices.
Argaud 03-20-07, 02:36 AM	The problem with level adjustment is that frankly it's difficult to impliment correctly. Some races by themselves aren't a level adjustment problem, it's the hitdice that come with them. Most of the low LA races work ok, Half Giants and Goliaths are a good example. However there are also examples of poorly designed monster races. Part of it is this, I think they want to avoid a plethora of monstrous characters because of the issues that can start creeping in with some games. In a game one might want all players to be good, mature, and honest, but one must account for munchkins, cheaters, and spoilers when designing the rules to make sure that the bad people don't destroy the system for the good ones. This time I agree with you 100% The Succubus is one of the creatures that might be worth the massive LA adjustment. There are many others, like Goliaths. But others really suck (like most giants) and then there are some templates or creatures with LAs that are just too low (mineral creature anyone? Or feral template? A glance to the CO boards easily reveals them! :)). LA adjustments are quite bad for full casters, too. And since some players think only full casters are good for anything at mid-high levels, they conclude all LA races are useless. :rolleyes:
MingT 03-20-07, 02:45 AM	First off - the designers assigned LAs based on the assumption that you will find a way of maximizing your abilities. As already quoted by someone else on this thread that is a blatant mistruth. The designers assigned LAs based on discouraging you from using monster characters at all. Period. Look the rest of your post then rolls on to use the word assumption about a BAJILLION times (didn't count, just made the assumption). And thats what your post is, assumption. You assume that the designers based LAs off "maximized" abilities, whatever the heck that means. You assume that forcing every player who uses a succubus to be the exact same diplomacy devil is somehow a functional method of bringing a new race into the game, or that thats what prospective succubus players even want. You assume, and it was a BIG assumption that succubi are actually GOOD at diplomacy and junk. And frankly THEY AREN'T. Others have outlined well enough the limitations of the succubus at character level 12, and frankly there are plenty of characters that can out diplomacy, bluff and enchant her NO PROBLEM. You even assume that your point still stands then justify that with the same assumptions again! With all those assumptions I'm not sure if its clear anymore what your point was. You also assume that its unreasonable for someone to want to see an ogre be lower ECL because he sucks at anything other than melee (which is another assumption since 4 hit die and 2 LA on ogre are a REALLY BAD DEAL even for a melee specialist). Well he should be lower ECL because of that, since he is totally screwing up every ogre bard or druid ever imagined. Not to mention that your assumption there is SO VAST that even the monster haters at WOTC don't make it, go look up non associated class levels in monster advancement. Of course thats for NPCs, you can't go giving a tiny break to monster PCs, oh no. The Ghaele assumption is the funniest one. I for one am amazed you would suggest that a +10 LA is at all playable regardless of what you get, this guy only becomes officially playable at 20th level! He literally NEVER gets a class level! He is running around with HALF the hit points, his saves are so low a tenth level caster can drop him with ease, his DCs are so low people are basically auto saving against him. The cohorts of your enemies cohorts will kill you if you play that character. He couldn't survive in a game with resting but a MARATHON is going to kill him even worse since he has a whole lot more stuff to fail to effect while making lots more saves and taking lots more damage. In a game one might want all players to be good, mature, and honest, but one must account for munchkins, cheaters, and spoilers when designing the rules to make sure that the bad people don't destroy the system for the good ones. I've heard this before when people talk about Savage Species. And there are only two ways to interpret what you just said and NIETHER are nice. 1) You just called everyone who wants to play these races munchkins, cheaters and spoilers, and used that as justification for vandalizing any attempt to cater for them in THEIR games, not yours. 2) You think if you provide non broken rules for monster races someone-somewhere-oneday-might use them to break the game. Better to prevent that by providing only broken rules. And then Arguad, unsurprisingly agreed 100% with one or both of those arguments.
Argaud 03-20-07, 03:08 AM	You assume, and it was a BIG assumption that succubi are actually GOOD at diplomacy and junk. And frankly THEY AREN'T. Others have outlined well enough the limitations of the succubus at character level 12, and frankly there are plenty of characters that can out diplomacy, bluff and enchant her NO PROBLEM. Although I have seen the half-elf Marshal/Bard builds that are geared to have +40 to diplomacy at level 6 (for games where DMs allow epic diplomacy rolls at low level... which is never) the idea that wizards or anyone can easily match the DCs of the Succubus slas is completely false. Level 12 wizard, starting with int 18, +3 levels, +6 item. 27 Int gives +8 to DCs. Level 6 spells means DC 24. Focus can raise that in 2 for two feats. Most CR 12 monsters will fail the saves. Succubus starting with cha 16, +16 racial, +6 item. Cha is 38 for a +14 to DC. DC for Charm Monster is 29, 28 for suggestion. If the player wants to twink it out even more the feat Ability Focus can raise one or both of them in 2. Most CR 12 monsters can't dream make those saves. Period.
DarkRhystar 03-20-07, 03:09 AM	Take skill ranks, you do realise that class skills from your monster class AREN'T automatically class skills for your commoner levels, you probably won't be able to spend the few you get on keeping your ranks up to par because you'll already be over the cross class limit for improving skill ranks. Rules nitpick: If a class skill is such for any class you have levels in, the maximum ranks in that skill for any class you would take levels in is Character level + 3. Skill is a class skill of the class you are taking a level in. Cost: 1 rank per point Max Ranks: 3 + Character level Skill is a class skill of one of your classes, but not of the one you are taking a level in. Cost: 1/2 rank per point Max Ranks: 3 + Character level Skill is not a class skill for any of your classes. Cost: 1/2 rank per point Max Ranks: (3 + Character level) / 2
runestar 03-20-07, 03:20 AM	It is funny now that you mention it - you are making just as many assumptions as I am. Or in the very least, I do not see any evidence to back up your claims.:P The Ghaele assumption is the funniest one. I for one am amazed you would suggest that a +10 LA is at all playable regardless of what you get, this guy only becomes officially playable at 20th level! He literally NEVER gets a class level! He is running around with HALF the hit points, his saves are so low a tenth level caster can drop him with ease, his DCs are so low people are basically auto saving against him. A ghaele is actually a very strong SS progression to play, though many people shy away from it the moment they see its LA of +10(completely understandable). However, this does not mean that it is unplayable. You just have to be careful, since it does not have a lot of hp, but its sheer load of SLAs more than makes up for it. I can safely say that its ECL may still be underpriced, even at a LA of +10, since it is hard to put a value to all those abilities it gets.:) It is fragile, but powerful if played properly. He does not need class lvs, his special abilities more than suffice. He can support with cleric14 spellcasting, 2 very useful aura, a potent light ray attack(take INA and rapid shot for even more fun) and a myriad of SLAs at will. Sure, he has low hp, but gets an above-average AC (due to his NA bonus), as well as dr(which few enemies are actually properly equipped to overcome) and decent resistances/immunities. His 10 outsider HD gives him +7 to all saves at ECL20. Compare this to a lv20 fighter's saves of +12, +6, +6. He still loses out on 1 save, though his racial con and wis bonuses help make up for these. So the disparity is not as bad as you make it out to be. I don't buy that whole "wotc does not want people playing monster PCs" crap. If that was the case, they wouldn't have bothered assigning LAs at all, or actually assigned LAs to all monsters in the MM, rather than just a select few. It sounds more like a case of sour grapes to me. You assume that forcing every player who uses a succubus to be the exact same diplomacy devil is somehow a functional method of bringing a new race into the game, or that thats what prospective succubus players even want. In the very least, it would be a more reasonable assumption than thinking that a player would bring in a succubus as a frenzied berserker, and calculate her LA based on how powerful she would be as a fighter. People are not stupid, they are going to want to get maximum bang for their buck. People are going to be playing ogres and centaurs as fighter-type characters. If they want to be bards, well then, why should I reward poor character building?:confused: You also assume that its unreasonable for someone to want to see an ogre be lower ECL because he sucks at anything other than melee (which is another assumption since 4 hit die and 2 LA on ogre are a REALLY BAD DEAL even for a melee specialist). Perhaps an ogre might pale in comparison with a ECL6 orc barb initially. However, throw on a few class lvs, and those physical stat bonuses an ogre gets will more than make up for its lack of HD. You have to think long term as well. You might suffer a bit in the beginning, but it all pays off in the end. You argue that ECL screws over roleplaying. Perhaps it does. But if LA is lowered to accomodate this, then rollplayers (not meant in a derogatory term) benefit. Obviously, one party will always lose out in this case. Which would you rather have? The cohorts of your enemies cohorts will kill you if you play that character. Really? I would like to see this happen.:) I apologize if my blatant use of the term "assumption" has grated on your nerves, since I have a tendency to use it indiscriminately (bad habit). Regardless, I still stand by my original argument.:)
Archangel62 03-20-07, 04:13 AM	I've heard this before when people talk about Savage Species. And there are only two ways to interpret what you just said and NIETHER are nice. 1) You just called everyone who wants to play these races munchkins, cheaters and spoilers, and used that as justification for vandalizing any attempt to cater for them in THEIR games, not yours. 2) You think if you provide non broken rules for monster races someone-somewhere-oneday-might use them to break the game. Better to prevent that by providing only broken rules. And then Arguad, unsurprisingly agreed 100% with one or both of those arguments. Or, there's the way that I meant that it's easier to soften a harsh game than to toughen a slack one. People like powerups and generally hate nerfs. My point is more that some people are going to try to break the game in half no matter what is available. I have played monstrous characters before and welcome them into games, but I also know that they can dominate games or make them grotesquely difficult for others because of the nature of the game or simply because of some monstrous abilities. I also am saying that it's hard to balance some monstrous character abilities properly because their abilities can become gamebreaking in the hands of a player or gamewrecking (there is a difference) One example was the guy who did a trog, he has a barbarian, the nausea factor weakened enemies but it hit his own team too and after a few near wipes he dropped the character because it was making things too difficult for the other players. Some monstrous races just don't play well with others, and there is also the problem that it is difficult to make balanced monster characters in the context of the system so it is generally better to err on the side of caution.
MingT 03-20-07, 06:46 AM	blah blah blah... and there is also the problem that it is difficult to make balanced monster characters in the context of the system so it is generally better to err on the side of caution. Again, your large paragraph of posturing amounts to... Monstrous characters are broken, therefore, we better not fix them because it might encourage people to play them. You do realise that is a fundamentally flawed argument right? See, and I really hate having to explain this... no really. If monstrous characters weren't broken, then we might be able to actually let people play them. No no, calm down, I know I'm blowing your mind here... It would be a big project, and once you committed to making a monstrous character system that didn't deliberately screw everyone you'd need like oh, A WHOLE BOOK, you could call it Monstrous Species or Savage Characters, or maybe some combination of those two names... And people like you, who clearly are so terrified of a character concept like a little miniature lady with butterfly wings breaking their game can just you know, not buy the book instead of arranging for it to be utterly discombobulated so that you don't have to fear some sort of domino reds under the bed theoretical invasion of fairies in your games. If your opinion of monstrous character rules is that they don't work and that they SHOULDN'T work then frankly you don't really belong discussing them on this or ANY thread do you? I mean what's your motivation here, do you just hate Fairies and Centaurs that much?
runestar 03-20-07, 07:21 AM	Very strawman argument by MingT there, and ironic too, especially when you consider that under the existing SS rules, centaurs and pixies are actually 2 of the more playable races which have not been neutered by the LAs which have been assigned to them...;) Yes, a pixie is very much playable, despite its LA of +4, and makes for a very strong character. Centaurs are a steal at ECL6, and make superb fighters.:) Monstrous characters are broken, therefore, we better not fix them because it might encourage people to play them. I don't think that is exactly what he is saying. What he could mean is that monstrous characters can be potentially game-breaking if handled poorly, such as by assigning too-low LAs, which would allow them to be played at all too low a level. It might also be hard to accurately gauge the prowess of certain special abilities without extensive testing(since they were never meant for PC use), which also makes it difficult to assign a suitable LA to it, which best reflects the potential impact it can have on the game in the long run. To prevent this from happening, it is better to err on the side of caution and inflate the LA a little, just in case. Better to have a weaker PC and preserve game balance, than have an overly strong one which might upset the game. I have mentioned that on a whole, I am quite satisfied with the entire LA/ECL concept, despite its tendency to skew over spellcasters. It is simple and intuitive enough to grasp, without being buried under a quagmire of secondary rules. However, this does not mean that I find all the assigned LAs reasonable. There are many which I feel are artificially high, and definitely warrant revision. However, this is not indicative of any inherent shortcomings in the LA system, merely a sign that it has not been implemented effectively as a whole.:) An analogy would be a legal system(the LA concept) and its law enforcers(the wotc designers). Thus, there is nothing wrong with the legal system, just that the police suck at enforcing it properly.
MingT 03-20-07, 07:34 AM	Pixies are playable? Anything with an LA +4 is playable? LA is simple? Intuitive? Its all fine if only they would just adjust a few of the little numbers to match your preference, which you've already stated is caster screwing over "erring on the side of caution" for fear of... something?
runestar 03-20-07, 08:29 AM	Pixies are playable? Anything with an LA +4 is playable? LA is simple? Intuitive? Yes, they are very much playable, and actually considered to be well worth the LA. You get excellent stat modifiers, permanent improved invis, dodge and weapon finesse as bonus feats, dr and decent sr. All in all, a sterling example of what a LA+4 race should constitute. The reason why I find LA intuitive is because the method of execution is quite straightforward(in theory at least). Simply assign a weight to its special abilities, and discount it appropriately depending on how many racial HD the creature in question has. Some misc factors may tie in from time to time. The end result is a monster whose ECL makes it roughly equivalent in power with other PCs. I say roughly because it is sometimes hard to accurately gauge the impact of their abilities, and while hindsight is 20/20, we want to avoid this before it has actually happened.:) Its all fine if only they would just adjust a few of the little numbers to match your preference, which you've already stated is caster screwing over "erring on the side of caution" for fear of... something? It is not so much erring on the side of caution as it is an unfortunate victim caught in the crossfire. In dnd, anything can be had. The catch is simply that you must be prepared to pay a fair price for it. In short, you cannot have something for nothing. Unfortunately, this clashes head on with the "Thou shall not give up caster lvs" mantra regarding spellcasters. However, it would not be fair to allow spellcasters to play powerful races for free, since this would mean that they are essentially getting an unfair subsidy on the special abilities which would otherwise be accrued to them. People would be rushing to play raksasha and coautl sorcerers or eldritch knights were they given ECLs = spellcaster lv. As of the moment, monstrous PCs tend to cater more towards melee classes, or at most, gish archetypes (since full spellcasting is all but an impossibility, save for the sylph). In this aspect, I do deem it unfortunate, but necessary.
WayneTheGame 03-20-07, 09:53 AM	Let me add that while I brought up the reference to the designer saying his guidelines were to make monster races unattractive, I personally feel that the system is flawed for one reason: You get shafted twice (once with LA, once with any Racial Hit Dice) for wanting to play a creature. IMO there should only be a LA; Racial Hit Dice should not apply to PCs because they represent a stereotypical member of that race (essentially what amounts to Paragon Levels). The easy solution to handle this would be to use this methodology and just not include LAs for the really high-end monsters (Demons, Ghaele, Mind Flayers, and the like) with all the SLA abilities at will. You don't screw over the person who wants to play a Centaur (for example) in a woodland-themed game, but you don't allow the person who wants some sort of uber-creature from doing so and breaking the game. Easy fix.
Skeetweasel 03-20-07, 10:15 AM	This argument can be summed up as follows: 1. The people who know who to play a specific monster can deal with the LA. They play to the strengths of the character, and fill a needed role in the party. They realize that they can be excellent at what they do. 2. The people who want their character to be great at everything, want an ogre as their bard or simply just don't know how to do anything but hp damage can't deal with LA's. They think even though they get huge bonuses to certain scores and at will abilities, there should be no penalty for that. These people can't see that lots of hit points, huge ability boosts, crazy at will abilities, class features, tons of skill points and all good saves is about right for their character. Just a quick question for those of you who fall into number 2, have you ever DM'ed for any of these characters with competent players? I have. I can tell you that either a succubus or pixie is not only playable but powerful if you know how to play them. And for the poster who has done away with LA's, I have this half-fiend awakened paragon cat I've been dying to play at 1st level. I know the ECL is ridiculous for 1st level but is should be fun.
runestar 03-20-07, 10:15 AM	You get shafted twice (once with LA, once with any Racial Hit Dice) for wanting to play a creature. IMO there should only be a LA; Racial Hit Dice should not apply to PCs because they represent a stereotypical member of that race (essentially what amounts to Paragon Levels). Wouldn't it ultimately amount to the same thing? LAs are what they are as racial HD has already been taken into account. If you want to discount racial HD, then the designers will obviously increase the LA to factor in these "missing" HD. For example, centaurs are typically LA+2, for an ECL of 6 when you count in its 4 monstrous humanoid HD. If you want to assign only a LA sans the racial HD, then the designers will peg the LA at around +4 instead of just +2. In such a scenario, you are clearly no better off, since racial HD does serve to mitigate what would in fact be a higher LA.:) And Skeetweasel left out a 3rd option - monsters who have been assigned such an erronous and crippling LA which all but makes them unplayable as they now come across as too weak, such as the ogre mage. Clearly, these LAs should be revised. You can do away with racial HD, but bear in mind the likely consequences which will follow(higher LA).
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-07, 10:43 AM	> Wouldn't it ultimately amount to the same thing? LAs are what they are as > racial HD has already been taken into account. Except that they often haven't. A gnoll would be fine with the hit dice dropped at LA +1. It would also balance out at LA +0 with the hit dice remaining. But it gets saddled with both the hit dice and the LA +1 because The Formula Sayeth So and thus makes a flat-out bad character. > 1. The people who know who to play a specific monster can deal with the > LA. They play to the strengths of the character, and fill a needed role in > the party. They realize that they can be excellent at what they do. Except, of course, that the LAs have been (even according to SS's own author) generally overinflated to ensure that even when you play to the strengths of the character you'll still be ineffective compared to a normal race, *and* you're now totally useless in all of the peripheral capacities that a normal race would be reasonable at. The presence of a few which do actually work out doesn't change the fact that 99% of the LAs are overcosted beyond reason (and apparently with deliberate intent, thereby sabotaging the entire point of the LA system).
Mr.Waesel 03-20-07, 12:23 PM	1. The people who know who to play a specific monster can deal with the LA. They play to the strengths of the character, and fill a needed role in the party. They realize that they can be excellent at what they do. Sucking? Seriously, how can you be excellent at anything when you're six levels in the hole and get nothing for it in return? How can you sit there and claim that a CR 7 creature makes an excellent party member in a level 12 party? What is it about crossing the imaginary line between npc and pc that's worth burning three dice of sneak attack, six skill ranks, three spell levels or an attack per round for? 2. The people who want their character to be great at everything, want an ogre as their bard or simply just don't know how to do anything but hp damage can't deal with LA's. They think even though they get huge bonuses to certain scores and at will abilities, there should be no penalty for that. These people can't see that lots of hit points, huge ability boosts, crazy at will abilities, class features, tons of skill points and all good saves is about right for their character. Wait, what? People who play monsters are either min/maxers or retarded? Did you just go there? I can tell you that either a succubus or pixie is not only playable but powerful if you know how to play them. http://www.phys.uu.nl/~0312312/headexplode.gif
runestar 03-20-07, 12:43 PM	Except that they often haven't. A gnoll would be fine with the hit dice dropped at LA +1. It would also balance out at LA +0 with the hit dice remaining. But it gets saddled with both the hit dice and the LA +1 because The Formula Sayeth So and thus makes a flat-out bad character. That I agree. And as proof, wotc released the goliath in races of faerun, which is statistically the equivalent of the gnoll, sans the racial HD. However, I am not sure if this is because they did not take its racial HD into consideration when discounting its LA, or they somehow arrived at a higher LA and had already lowered it as they deemed fit. Regardless, I am not saying that all the LAs assigned are accurate. What I am saying is that the LA system is conceived is okay as is, just that the way it was implemented leaves much to be desired. Sucking? Seriously, how can you be excellent at anything when you're six levels in the hole and get nothing for it in return? How can you sit there and claim that a CR 7 creature makes an excellent party member in a level 12 party? What is it about crossing the imaginary line between npc and pc that's worth burning three dice of sneak attack, six skill ranks, three spell levels or an attack per round for? Because cr and ECL are 2 completely different things. They gauge 2 entirely different standards and should never be used side-by-side for comparison. I am a tad tired of repeating this so many times, so I will ask you to refer to the FAQ for clarification.:) Though I agree that a succubus and pixie do make for strong NPCs in the right setting/
Zumarai 03-20-07, 12:49 PM	The designers assigned LAs based on discouraging you from using monster characters at all. Period. Really, where did they state that?
Zumarai 03-20-07, 12:52 PM	[QUOTE=Mr.Waesel;11833095]Seriously, how can you be excellent at anything when you're six levels in the hole and get nothing for it in return? [QUOTE] So getting +20 etc worth of ability score adjustments and a crap load of special abilities (DR, SR, spell-like etc) is nothing?
Kresalak 03-20-07, 01:11 PM	Really, where did they state that? Check the quote I posted earlier.
TheDarkLord 03-20-07, 01:55 PM	Anything the succubus can do another class can do better. Ok, Argaud, that was the original Question, then Exampels were asked for. As stated, Directly from the MM, the Succubus is not a 12th level character. That she has infinite use of her slas is not a weakness. Yeah, her SLA's really, really suck. Spell-Like Abilities At will—charm monster (DC 22), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 20), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 21), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Charm Monser? At 12th alot of things begin having immunity to this. Ethereal Jaunt? Yeah, that helps alot if you need to escape, otherwise not very good for the party. Greater Teleport herself only? Yeah, that works out well for the party as well. Summon Demon (Sp) Once per day a succubus can attempt to summon 1 vrock with a 30% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. She can call a Vrock for a hour. A wizard needs to be level 17 to call a Vrock for 17 rounds. This is simply false. Where does it say she can summon it for an hour? Looks to me like this is the equivilatn of a third level spell with a caster level of 12, so about 12 rounds. Once again, not good enough because of the lack of versatility. While she may summon a Vrock, any other class can summon multiple creatures who's abilities fit more with the ever changing landscape most PC's are used to seeing. Change Shape (Su) An succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. You are telling me that this is better than a Druid of her level? Tongues (Su) A succubus has a permanent tongues ability (as the spell, caster level 12th). Succubi usually use verbal communication with mortals. And this is supposed to be broken as well? Explain this one, how is "dealing damage with exponential numbers" better than what account as an infinite number of save-or-die spells? What save or die spells? Charm person? Detect thoughts? Energy Drain may be her best ability, yet she has to Charm or grapple an opponent to do so, this is not a very good option inside of fast paced combat or dealing with Higher level BBEG's.. I find difficult to see any character better at stealth than someone able to be ethereal and shapechange into any medium or small humanoid at will. Clerics can just plane shift to the Ethereal and bring those High Listen and spot check characters with them, she would still have to Hide on the ethereal. Most classes can't heal either. Neither can the succubus. Ridiculous. That is like saying a level 12 wizard will always have 30 hit points (12d4). The Sucubbus has PC abilities and level 12 gear. She has max hp at level 1, she will have high Con and she will have hp enhancers. Why would she have a High con? Seem's to me she would focus on her ability with CHA and take classes that focus on that. But anyway, at most, with full HP's at 12th level, she is going to have 48+con, so she might have 60. Which isn't that big of a deal. She can't melee worth a damn with +6 to hit, her SLA's arent anything spectacular to look at. And god forbid she try's to grapple anything. A wizard needs to be level 17 to try to dominate a monster. Dominate Person is only for humanoids. Again, only wizards get dominate spells. True, though I can charm monster, and Dominate a person at this level. And Bards get the Dominate line as well. Some cleric domains grant it also I believe. Like what? She is already better than any form the wizard or the druid can take at level 12. A caster needs to be level 17 to shapeshift into something better than a Succubus. And even then they don't get infinite use of slas. Well, at 12th level I can polymorph into anything with 15 HD, which is, oh, 9 more HD than the succubus? I'd say you can find something with 15 HD that is better than the succubus (Hydra, Dire Bear, Etc). What were you trying to show us. Which is the class that at level 12 can "go nova", "Deal Damage with exponential numbers" (whatever that means), deal massive sneak attack damage, is better at stealth, heals, summons monsters more powerful than... what?, can use dominate spells at will, and can shapechange into creatures more powerful than a Succubus? None. Actually some of those things can't be done by -any- level 12 PC, much less by just one. Any 12th level character, using an LA 0 race is better than a Succubus at 12th level. Bard, Fighter, Barbarian. All of them are better. Any build you can take with the succubus I can do a similar build in 12 levels and make it better and more versatile. And dealing damage in Exponential numbers using builds such as the hulking hurler, and the shrink Item cheese when the damage comes out to like 10000^10d6 per hit.
NineInchNall 03-20-07, 06:32 PM	Charm Monster on your Hulking Hurler. Now the Succubus' slave is doing 10000^10d6 damage. Try again :rolleyes: Wow, a level 12 character can use charm monster? Totally awesome and 73h r0xx0rz! Seriously, the Wizard was using charm monster at level 7. It's an ability appropriate for a level 7 character.
NineInchNall 03-20-07, 06:59 PM	But I will twink out a Succubus, Druid, Scout/Ranger, Wizard, and hands down, on paper show you how vastly the Succubus is at 12th level. Personally, I'm fond of Greensinger Initiate + owl's insight on Druids. They end up pretty much the best charmers out there. Owl's insight lasts an hour and brings the character's Wisdom up to match the succubus's Charisma. Also remember that a human Druid 12 has a three feat advantage over the succubus. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Greensinger Initiate give you your charm spells and make up for the succubus's Ability Focus.
Gwenfloor 03-20-07, 07:05 PM	But T3h Succubus Can Use It 14400 Times Per Day!!!11!!!!111!!11!!!!! But the Paladin can use Detect Evil just as many times per day! Paladin Overpowered1111!!!!111111!!! Seriously, some spell-like abilities usable at will are balanced. Others, such as the Cure spells, can be a problem.
bitnine 03-20-07, 07:24 PM	But T3h Succubus Can Use It 14400 Times Per Day!!!11!!!!111!!11!!!!! NOOOOOOZ!!! For I am the handicapped at DMing and will show scenarios on how unlimited charming can BREAK THE WHOLE WORLD! Then you'll probably point out some lower level sorcerer that can already do it more times than anyone really cares and I will go to bed crying. Are you happy now?
Kresalak 03-20-07, 07:40 PM	Oh, hey, I just remembered something. According to the Wizard spell list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) a Succubus is something you can get at level 9. As usual, Clerics do it better. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm)
Lotus Crane 03-20-07, 07:48 PM	First of all, I think the OP meant to say "sacred cow," not "sacred text." While the current LA system is somewhat imperfect, it (or some comparable limitation) must exist to maintain game balance between between PC's of "normal" races and PC's of more powerful races (or those with useful templates). Generally speaking, most moderate to high-LA races are overpriced, and the most common reason they're overpriced is because their racial abilities don't scale well enough (if at all) to continue to make them competitive with the high level class abilities (ie 9th level spells) that such characters will never acquire. The two most prominent examples of good scaling are the half-celestial and half-fiend templates (Monster Manual I), and the raptoran race (Races of the Wild). The half-celestial and half-fiend, while a pricy LA +4 (they could probably stand to be cut down to LA +3), are great because they grant stronger and stronger spell-like abilities based on the number of HD a character has. While again, these SLA's are a few levels behind the curve, at least they're something which effectively lets the template "level up" with the rest of the character. The raptoran is an even bolder development, because it uses scaling to make a fair LA 0 flying race. For those of you unfamiliar with the raptoran, it makes flight possible at LA 0 by restricting it until ECL 5. That's right, it's a race that can't actually use its primary powerful racial ability until a character has at least 5 class levels. The ability to fly without magical aid is probably broken at ECL 1, but by delaying it until ECL 5 (when a party normally has access to the fly spell anyway), natural flying becomes merely a useful convenience, and thus is fair even at LA 0. A while back I started (but never really finished) a project to replace LA altogether with an improved version of racial HD that provided benefits that were more powerful, and scaled better with character level, which you can still find here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=596634).
Nathreet 03-20-07, 07:55 PM	Most people in these thread seem to be focusing on only the drawbacks or only the benefits of a particular race. Anyway I keep a list of useful MM races: orc lizardfolk pixie (under "sprite") grimlock I haven't looked very carefully at higher LA races, but the centuar (warrior), aranea (sorc or battlefield control), satyr (scout), treant (str), succubus (cha) and astral deva angel (monk's belt => massive AC) all look promising. I haven't looked too much at variants on the base races either. But deep dwarves look good. The forest gnome gets extras almost for free, so he seems like an obvious choice over the standard gnome. The advantage is slight, though.
Archangel62 03-20-07, 08:40 PM	Again, your large paragraph of posturing amounts to... Monstrous characters are broken, therefore, we better not fix them because it might encourage people to play them. You do realise that is a fundamentally flawed argument right? See, and I really hate having to explain this... no really. If monstrous characters weren't broken, then we might be able to actually let people play them. No no, calm down, I know I'm blowing your mind here... It would be a big project, and once you committed to making a monstrous character system that didn't deliberately screw everyone you'd need like oh, A WHOLE BOOK, you could call it Monstrous Species or Savage Characters, or maybe some combination of those two names... And people like you, who clearly are so terrified of a character concept like a little miniature lady with butterfly wings breaking their game can just you know, not buy the book instead of arranging for it to be utterly discombobulated so that you don't have to fear some sort of domino reds under the bed theoretical invasion of fairies in your games. If your opinion of monstrous character rules is that they don't work and that they SHOULDN'T work then frankly you don't really belong discussing them on this or ANY thread do you? I mean what's your motivation here, do you just hate Fairies and Centaurs that much? Wow, you really aren't reading what I'm writing are you. My point about hard to balance is that some monstrous races can be very effective at one area but useless at another. Do we lower the LA of a monster that is only good as a caster because it sucks at martial traits, how do we set the LA of a monster that is decent at several class styles, how do we set the LA of a monster only good at martial classes? You apparently like putting words in other peoples mouths. The difficulty is balancing a monstrous race can come from differing factors, size, amount of reach, natural attacks, special abilities, vulnerabilities, and uses thereof in game. It's why some monsters that have a moderate CR can have an obscene LA because their abilities can completely ignore entire encounter types by virtue of existing. It's hard to make the monsters fit properly because some races might only have a few areas that they will work well in, an ogre isn't likely to be a bard but it can be done, do we lower the LA for that because it's not the most optimal use of the ogres racial traits? Also, some monstrous races qualify for feats out of reach of a standard PC race and these feats can do a lot to alter the balance of a game. I would rather we had a more sensible level adjustment system as well, but the problem is that becauase of combat styles, feats, and stacking abilities it can become tricky to figure out proper LA. Most monsters are overpriced for their LA, not because the LA itself is too high but because the LA plus the Hitdice, maybe we need an averaging system built in to factor the HD into the calculation. But you seem to have it in your head that because I said that it can be difficult to mechanically quantify the abilities of things like regeneration or at will abilities that I'm against monstrous characters, even when I have stated that I have run games with them in my campaigns.
sigma999 03-20-07, 08:55 PM	Sickeningly contemptuous in your arguments, hm? Could you stick to the topic of LA and how bad or good of an idea it is and quite possibly any alternatives, or will it kill you bickering puppies.
Archangel62 03-20-07, 09:00 PM	Sickeningly contemptuous in your arguments, hm? Could you stick to the topic of LA and how bad or good of an idea it is and quite possibly any alternatives, or will it kill you bickering puppies. Hmm, you mean that by me pointing out that some races have abilities that shoehorn them into certain character roles and either make them sub-optimal or even unusable for a certain class, in addition to the problem of how LA can interact with monstrous hitdie, isn't related to the discussion, please explain this. But fine, let's look at some LA examples that might look odd at first, in the planar handbook there are templates for Entropic and Vivacious creatures. Entropic creatures channel raw negative energy they can shoot a bolt of negative energy every 1d4 rounds, resistance to positive energy (slight drawback) bonus to charisma and constitution, and anyone in 10 feet takes 1 point of damage a round. Level adjustment of 2, reason was that this thing is a hindrance to the party, constantly injuring companions is bad, and worse is that healing them was rather tricky. Vivacious, they have fast healing and give all allies fast healing one, same stat bonuses however they also have a positive energy ray every 1d4 rounds, level adjustment of 5. Reason is that this thing gives a lot of power to the party, fast healing, ranged healing shots and this thing gives a lot to the party. This is part of the issue that LA has to deal with, if a monstrous race gives the individual player huge bonuses but makes adjacent people take 1d4 level drain then that has to factor into the LA because I think that LA has to account for not only personal power but what options it brings to a group, just my point of view.
runestar 03-20-07, 09:47 PM	I concur with what archangel has said regarding the difficulties of deciding on a "fair LA". While an ogre, minotaur or centaur tends to make a good fighter type, that is unfortunately pretty much they are good at, since their ECL and special abilities basically pigeon-holes them into said category. While you can give them lvs in rogue or cleric, they will be noticeably weaker at it. However, does that make them weak? I have never heard of anyone complaining that dwarves are underpowered because their cha penalty makes them sub-optimal sorcerers. Is it unreasonable? Imagine if a centaur was given an artificially low ECL to make it a viable spellcaster. Then a centaur fighter will have even more reason to rejoice, since an already strong combination already got much stronger. If anyone has any good suggestions on how to revamp the LA/ECL system, then now is as good a time to bring them forward. Though you might want to start a new thread - this one seems to be becoming cluttered. As for me, I will continue to support the current LA system as is. This does not mean I will not take it upon myself to revise LAs which I deem are erronous though.:)
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-07, 10:00 PM	The LA system, in itself, is a perfectly fine idea - *IF* the deliberate overcosting problem is addressed. That is the single biggest fly in its ointment right now. Two other factors to consider, however... The first is that even if you cost things appropriately, monstrous races often aren't going to neatly fit a given level breakpoint. This leads to the infamous "when in doubt, round up", so there may need to be some kind of fractional LA, with an associated list of, fractional LA traits that can be added to top up any missing fraction. Which is to say: If the race comes out at (say) a little too good for LA +2 but not strong enough to LA +3, it might be allowed to add a half-level ability to bring them into line with LA +3. The other issue is dealing with the optimal/non-optimal class problem. While it's true that the standard races have their stronger and weaker points, the relative disparity between those strong/weak combinations isn't particularly large. (A dwarf sorcerer isn't as good as a dwarf fighter, and a dwarf rogue is somewhere in the middle, but this isn't even remotely as large a difference as between a centaur sorcerer, fighter, and rogue.) Here one might borrow something from the CR system: Associated and nonassociated classes. Nonassociated classes only count for half as far as CR adjustments, up to a certain point. There's no reason why this couldn't be done with ECLed races too.
runestar 03-20-07, 10:35 PM	One problem I see is the interaction of powerful races with spellcasters. To make viable spellcasters, we will have to lower their LA/ECL to almost zero. This means they are getting something for nothing. Why wouldn't people play power races as sorcerers in this case? It is like saying that drow should be LA+0 races despite their many bonuses, because spellcasters get screwed over otherwise. In a more extreme case, this analogy could be extended to high ECL characters such as solars or balors. They should just stick with LA+0 races, or be prepared to play gish-type builds. The non-associated class system is far from perfect either, and is a rule of thumb at best. By this rule, an elder earth elemental with 24 lvs of cleric is a cr24 challenge.:rolleyes: Let's not even touch a storm giant with sorc lvs...;) How would you implement it for PCs?:confused:
NineInchNall 03-20-07, 10:45 PM	Oh, hey, I just remembered something. According to the Wizard spell list a Succubus is something you can get at level 9. As usual, Clerics do it better.And a Fiendbinder can have a harem of them, provided he pays for it. I don't know why he would, though, when he could have a harem of mariliths. :)
runestar 03-20-07, 10:50 PM	By that rationale, a treant should be ECL7 because a wizard can access that via polymorph...
NineInchNall 03-20-07, 10:57 PM	The half-celestial and half-fiend, while a pricy LA +4 (they could probably stand to be cut down to LA +3), are great because they grant stronger and stronger spell-like abilities based on the number of HD a character has. While again, these SLA's are a few levels behind the curve, at least they're something which effectively lets the template "level up" with the rest of the character. I thought such things only took racial HD into account. By that rationale, a treant should be ECL7 because a wizard can access that via polymorph... Pretty much. Probably more accurate at ECL 9, though, due to the fact that the Wizard doesn't get access to everything about the treant. But then, even without the special qualities, a Wizard retains most of his spellcasting, so we could consider that a pretty nasty treant.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-07, 11:09 PM	> To make viable spellcasters, we will have to lower their LA/ECL to almost zero. Not necessarily to zero, but certainly to the point that the racial abilities they do get are worth the loss of spellcasting levels that they suffer. The problem here is that very few races add much of anything to spellcasters. The vast majority of them are great if you're a melee bruiser, but +12 Strength isn't nearly as helpful for a wizard. (It's not completely useless, but it helps a barbarian far, far more.) Moreover, the racial base traits (which are part of the ECL cost) stack directly with those of warrior classes with full synergy, whereas those base traits don't help a spellcaster nearly as much (especially when it comes to BAB, which drives a warrior's power but does relatively little for spellcasters).
runestar 03-20-07, 11:18 PM	That sounds plausible, yet seems like a major headache. Basically, aren't you advocating different ECLs for different builds? For example, a centaur is ECL6 if used as a fighter, but ECL3 as a spellcaster. What if the player wants to play a hybrid or some funny class combination? Seems like a lot of ad-hoc adjudication will be in order.:confused:
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-07, 11:28 PM	Yes, it would - but that's something that needs to be faced up to if the idea is to actually have a creature's ECL do the job perfectly, since the whole idea of ECL is that they should be equivalent in capability to a character of that level - if they're not, the ECL needs adjusting (up or down). One-size-fits-all is the current approach, but as is obvious, that fails miserably if you're not playing to the one stereotype the race was designed for. (Even when costed appropriately.)
TheDarkLord 03-20-07, 11:58 PM	Hmm more eventually coming. Though the succubus is looking like a one shot glass cannon at the moment, any Ideas to increase it's ability whatsoever would be appreciated. Succubus Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil) Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (44 hp)[Talking average HP's here] Initiative: +7 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (average) Armor Class: 29 (10 +4 Dex, +4 Armor, +2 Deflection, +9 natural), 16 touch, 25 flat-footed Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+9 Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d6+3) 20x2 Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Energy drain, spell-like abilities, summon demon Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft., tongues Saves: Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +9 Abilities: Str 12 (+1), Dex 14 (+2), Con 16 (+3), Int 16 (+3), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 33 (+10) W/Magic: Str 12 (+1), Dex 18 (+4), Con 16 (+3), Int 16 (+3), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 37 (+12) Skills: Bluff, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +21, Disguise +21, Escape Artist +13, Hide +13, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (Planes) +12, Listen +21, Move Silently +13, Search +12, Spot +21, Survival +13, Use Rope +12 Feats: Ability Focus (Energy Drain), Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse. A succubus’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 27 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 27 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based. Spell-Like Abilities At will—charm monster (DC 26), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 24), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 25), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Demon (Sp) Once per day a succubus can attempt to summon 1 vrock with a 30% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. Change Shape (Su) An succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. Tongues (Su) A succubus has a permanent tongues ability (as the spell, caster level 12th). Succubi usually use verbal communication with mortals. Skills Succubi have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. *While using her change shape ability, a succubus gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. For magic Items I have so far. Cloak of Charisma +4, 16,000 gp Bracers of Armor +4, 16,000 gp Ring of Protection +2, 8,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +4, 16,000 gp Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, 24,000 gp. I have 8,000 gp left over and don't know what else to get so we will stick with this at the moment. Heh, the more I look at the succubus, the more I am convinced it wouldn't last in any kind of party situation long. It is the definition of a glass canon. The druid Idea I have sketched out in my mind is going to put this thing to shame. Eat Crow. Coming soon, while that thing above might be a glass cannon, this thing is going to be a 208mm Howizter with Nuclear Capability Yeah, this is going to be a Scout 3, Range 17 build, but I might have just 1 level of scout in the 12 levels, not sure yet. I'm using a 28 point buy, Core magic Items, Feat's can and will come from anywhere. Each character will have 88,000 in gold total.
Lotus Crane 03-21-07, 01:49 AM	I thought such things only took racial HD into account. No; only racial abilities are limited to racial HD. As a template, most half-celestial and half-fiend creatures don't even have any racial HD; the description of the template's spell-like abilities only mention Hit Dice, with "racial" nowhere to be found. The sample half-celestial on page 145 is a 9th level human paladin, who has access to all the spell-like abilities that a half-celestial of 9 HD would normally have. ("Hit Dice" including those from class levels is of course already precedented by the limitations of spells such as sleep and color spray, among other things.) That's what makes half-celestial and half-fiend so worthwhile.
MingT 03-21-07, 07:14 AM	Yes, they are very much playable,... <SNIP> The reason why I find LA intuitive is ... Simply assign a weight to its special abilities... I say roughly because it is sometimes hard to accurately gauge the impact of their abilities... <SNIP> It is not so much erring on the side of caution as it is an unfortunate victim caught in the crossfire. In dnd, anything can be had. The catch is simply that you must be prepared to pay a fair price for it. In short, you cannot have something for nothing. <SNIP> The rules for monsters are broken. We can't risk fixing them because then the game might break. <SNIP> Unfortunately, this clashes head on with the "Thou shall not give up caster lvs" mantra regarding spellcasters. <SNIP> Thou shall not give up ANY LEVELS. A rogue shall not give up rogue levels and a barbarian shall not give up barbarian levels. No one should give up levels in return for nothing and no one should give up levels of doing the thing their character concept is supposed to do (Bob the singing ogre, Nelly the Psionic Nymph, Bo Diddly the monk pixie). Seriously NO character concept can give up levels and live, ever, let alone four, or 12 or as some sycophants suggest TWENTY!!! Here's another commandment for you. Thou shall not be forced to play a character that sucks. However, it would not be fair to allow spellcasters to play powerful races for free, since this would mean that they are essentially getting an unfair subsidy on the special abilities which would otherwise be accrued to them. People would be rushing to play raksasha and coautl sorcerers or eldritch knights were they given ECLs = spellcaster lv. <SNIP>, the LA system is broken. The monster Hit die system is broken. Looking in the monsterous manual and expecting to use what you find as templates to make playable characters... is broken (see polymorph and druid uberness for plenty of that wrongness, and thats just a start). I'm not sitting here all "duhr, lets just dump LAs, then my MM based Rakasha will break everyones game and I will win!". No one is. But you prefer to er on the side of caution because you keep saying we are. In this aspect, I do deem it unfortunate, but necessary. <SNIP>
Leo 03-21-07, 07:57 AM	Hmm more eventually coming. Though the succubus is looking like a one shot glass cannon at the moment, any Ideas to increase it's ability whatsoever would be appreciated. Succubus Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil) Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (44 hp)[Talking average HP's here] Initiative: +7 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (average) Armor Class: 29 (10 +4 Dex, +4 Armor, +2 Deflection, +9 natural), 16 touch, 25 flat-footed Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+9 Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d6+3) 20x2 Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Energy drain, spell-like abilities, summon demon Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft., tongues Saves: Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +9 Abilities: Str 12 (+1), Dex 14 (+2), Con 16 (+3), Int 16 (+3), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 33 (+10) W/Magic: Str 12 (+1), Dex 18 (+4), Con 16 (+3), Int 16 (+3), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 37 (+12) Skills: Bluff, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +21, Disguise +21, Escape Artist +13, Hide +13, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (Planes) +12, Listen +21, Move Silently +13, Search +12, Spot +21, Survival +13, Use Rope +12 Feats: Ability Focus (Energy Drain), Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse. A succubus’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 27 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 27 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based. Spell-Like Abilities At will—charm monster (DC 26), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 24), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 25), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Demon (Sp) Once per day a succubus can attempt to summon 1 vrock with a 30% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. Change Shape (Su) An succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. Tongues (Su) A succubus has a permanent tongues ability (as the spell, caster level 12th). Succubi usually use verbal communication with mortals. Skills Succubi have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. *While using her change shape ability, a succubus gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. For magic Items I have so far. Cloak of Charisma +4, 16,000 gp Bracers of Armor +4, 16,000 gp Ring of Protection +2, 8,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +4, 16,000 gp Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, 24,000 gp. I have 8,000 gp left over and don't know what else to get so we will stick with this at the moment. Heh, the more I look at the succubus, the more I am convinced it wouldn't last in any kind of party situation long. It is the definition of a glass canon. The druid Idea I have sketched out in my mind is going to put this thing to shame. Eat Crow. Coming soon, while that thing above might be a glass cannon, this thing is going to be a 208mm Howizter with Nuclear Capability Yeah, this is going to be a Scout 3, Range 17 build, but I might have just 1 level of scout in the 12 levels, not sure yet. I'm using a 28 point buy, Core magic Items, Feat's can and will come from anywhere. Each character will have 88,000 in gold total. You forgot to actually add a class level. LA assumes your monster actually takes a class level before you start playing with it. So it gets: +hit dice. +saves. +BAB if you choose a pure melee class. +weapon and armor proefeciency, so you don't need to burn your money in bracers of armor. Heck, with her natural abilities, feats and skill points, she can probably qualify to one of several Prc. Some rough ideas: fighter, or monk specialized in grapple Evil cleric. Get minions Druid. With a bear companion, so he can grapple for you. Etc, etc. Thing is, that class level makes a lot of diference.
runestar 03-21-07, 08:25 AM	To MingT, Normally, I enjoy engaging in debates, since I find that they go a long way towards improving my understanding of the game. I don't claim to be an expert in the rules, and will not hesitate to admit if and when I am wrong. However, a debate also means that any points raised should ideally be supported with relevant information, and not degenerate into petty personal attacks and immature name-calling. This also means that if you want to persuade me otherwise, you clearly still have a very long way to go, because the way I am reading it, the points you have raised contain nothing, explain nothing, and ultimate achieve nothing. You have said time and again that I am wrong, but short of ad hominems criticizing my intelligence(or rather, the lack thereof), I fail to see anything concrete to back up your claims. This makes it extremely difficult for me to address any of your points properly. So far, all I can make out is "You are a retard. Therefore, anything you say is retarded and must be disregarded". If there is any deeper essence to your words of wisdom, then perhaps you might be so gracious as to enlighten me? Because obviously, my grasp of the dnd rules seems to be so lacking. Thou shall not give up ANY LEVELS. A rogue shall not give up rogue levels and a barbarian shall not give up barbarian levels. No one should give up levels in return for nothing and no one should give up levels of doing the thing their character concept is supposed to do (Bob the singing ogre, Nelly the Psionic Nymph, Bo Diddly the monk pixie). This usually applies only to spellcasters, since there are few, if any special abilities which can aptly compensate for the loss of spellcasting levels. Melee classes like rogue and barbs are not the case. The pixie has a high dex and int bonus, which makes up for the loss of ranks in skill points, and weapon finesse as a bonus feat(check the errata) means that his to-hit roll is definitely not inferior to a normal race. Yes, it has very little hp, and as I have said, you win some, just as you must lose some. Have you actually tried a pixie rogue? Heck, even a pixie barb is a viable build to play. Yes, you lose 4 HD due to that LA, but you gain so much more. Unlike spellcasters, I do not need to go pure barb or pure rogue to recognize its full strengths. In fact, barb is potent enough as is as a 1-dip, and the pixie special abilities go quite a long way towards augmenting the strengths of a rogue. I'm not sitting here all "duhr, lets just dump LAs, then my MM based Rakasha will break everyones game and I will win!". No one is. But you prefer to er on the side of caution because you keep saying we are. Funny. I don't seem to recall saying anything along that line. What I was saying is that the LA system is fair enough as is, just that it may not have been implemented properly. Not once have I said that all LAs out there are accurate and should not be revised. But I do advocate that the current LA system be retained, though it certainly can be refined.:)
Kresalak 03-21-07, 08:55 AM	Pixie Rogue? You're joking. Rogues rely on their skills and Sneak Attack, which the Pixie does not get. At level 5, you're running around with 1 HD and 1d6 SA-no one even cares and one hit kills you. At level 10, you have 6 HD and 3d6 SA, and still no one cares, as at best you'll deal 8d6 damage (3d6 SA plus 1d6 weapon, 2 attacks with TWF), and that's barely noticeable. A real Rogue can deal 24d6 at this point (5d6 SA, 1d6 vial of acid, 4 attacks), which will actually be noticed and can totally kill people. Also, he has Skill Mastery with Disable Device and Use Magic Device (and one other skill of his choice) and in three levels he gets a bonus feat of his choice, which can be any feat ever printed (including Epic feats). Rogue is among the best classes in the game, and losing any levels of it won't be worth it if you can't get actual skills in return.
josephbt 03-21-07, 09:18 AM	I tried to constrain myself, but this is simply too much. This usually applies only to spellcasters, since there are few, if any special abilities which can aptly compensate for the loss of spellcasting levels. Melee classes like rogue and barbs are not the case. This usually aplies to ALL clases. There is NO reason, absolulty NONE whatsoever, to lose class levels. If you're a rogue, there is no excuse to lose sneak attacks or skills. The bonus on DEX or INT don't make up ranks, or rogue special abilities. If you're a spellcaster, losing spellcaster levels is NOT like shooting your self in the leg, it's like ripping your head off. That INT bonus means crap if you're casting level inappropriate spells. And if you're a fighter, well, you're a fighter. You're based on BAB and you don't have BAB, but high STR. Have you actually tried a pixie rogue? Heck, even a pixie barb is a viable build to play. Yes, you lose 4 HD due to that LA, but you gain so much more. Unlike spellcasters, I do not need to go pure barb or pure rogue to recognize its full strengths. In fact, barb is potent enough as is as a 1-dip, and the pixie special abilities go quite a long way towards augmenting the strengths of a rogue. Yes. It sucked like a 40 year old lady of the night. What I was saying is that the LA system is fair enough as is, just that it may not have been implemented properly. If it is fair enough, it is implemented properly. If it isn't fair, it isn't implemented properly. You can not mix these statements. One excludes the other. Some rough ideas: fighter, or monk specialized in grapple Evil cleric. Get minions Druid. With a bear companion, so he can grapple for you. The problems are, my mate, that your level of fighter or monk does crap. Have you actually looked at CR13 monsters? The smalest one is Ghaele Eladrin. And it will still beat the sheeet out of you. It will cast one spell and you will die. What will you grapple in that company? Evil cleric? What minions? Clerics come with minions? I'm guessing you'll take Leadership, which is kinda ironic, since that cohort will be saving your ass. Druid???? A bear?? RTFM, dude! YOU'RE LEVEL 1! No bears for you. You get a 13hp wolf. Your class ability is to meditate for 24hrs and then get a 13hp wolf. Then the wolf dies. Then you meditate again. Then you realise the futility of you character and roll up a halfling pwnzor rogue.
Argaud 03-21-07, 09:18 AM	But then, even without the special qualities, a Wizard retains most of his spellcasting, so we could consider that a pretty nasty treant. I will play an awakened Fleshraker Dinosaur barbarian. ECL 4. Why? Druids get that dino at as companion at level 4, yes? That is "access" :rolleyes: Okay, maybe level 6 since I get two extra HD? For example, a centaur is ECL6 if used as a fighter, but ECL3 as a spellcaster. What if the player wants to play a hybrid or some funny class combination? Seems like a lot of ad-hoc adjudication will be in order.:confused: Yes. And what if the Centaur wizard decides to take one fighter level at continue his career as an Eldritch Knight?
runestar 03-21-07, 09:26 AM	If it is fair enough, it is implemented properly. If it isn't fair, it isn't implemented properly. You can not mix these statements. One excludes the other. Something can be fair without being implemented properly. The goal of the LA system was simply to assign a weight to monsters so that they are the equivalent of PCs at a certain lv. In theory, this concept is fine. But in practice, the LAs assigned tend to be not that accurate, which is where the crux of the problem lies. It is like saying that however well-designed the legal system of a society is, it is for nothing if the police cannot enforce it properly.:)
Kresalak 03-21-07, 09:32 AM	I will play an awakened Fleshraker Dinosaur barbarian. ECL 4. Why? Druids get that dino at as companion at level 4, yes? That is "access" :rolleyes: Okay, maybe level 6 since I get two extra HD? If a monster is appropriate to have as a single class feature for a 4th level character, how in hell could it not be appropriate to have as 6 levels worth of class features for another character? Yes. And what if the Centaur wizard decides to take one fighter level at continue his career as an Eldritch Knight? Now you see why Level Adjustment doesn't work, like, at all.
Argaud 03-21-07, 09:44 AM	Hmm more eventually coming. Though the succubus is looking like a one shot glass cannon at the moment, any Ideas to increase it's ability whatsoever would be appreciated. Succubus Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil) Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (44 hp)[Talking average HP's here] Initiative: +7 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (average) Armor Class: 29 (10 +4 Dex, +4 Armor, +2 Deflection, +9 natural), 16 touch, 25 flat-footed Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+9 Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d6+3) 20x2 Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Energy drain, spell-like abilities, summon demon Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft., tongues Saves: Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +9 Abilities: Str 12 (+1), Dex 14 (+2), Con 16 (+3), Int 16 (+3), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 33 (+10) W/Magic: Str 12 (+1), Dex 18 (+4), Con 16 (+3), Int 16 (+3), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 37 (+12) Skills: Bluff, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +21, Disguise +21, Escape Artist +13, Hide +13, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (Planes) +12, Listen +21, Move Silently +13, Search +12, Spot +21, Survival +13, Use Rope +12 Feats: Ability Focus (Energy Drain), Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse. A succubus’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 27 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 27 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based. Spell-Like Abilities At will—charm monster (DC 26), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 24), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 25), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Demon (Sp) Once per day a succubus can attempt to summon 1 vrock with a 30% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. Change Shape (Su) An succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. Tongues (Su) A succubus has a permanent tongues ability (as the spell, caster level 12th). Succubi usually use verbal communication with mortals. Skills Succubi have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. *While using her change shape ability, a succubus gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. For magic Items I have so far. Cloak of Charisma +4, 16,000 gp Bracers of Armor +4, 16,000 gp Ring of Protection +2, 8,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +4, 16,000 gp Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, 24,000 gp. I have 8,000 gp left over and don't know what else to get so we will stick with this at the moment. I'm using a 28 point buy, Core magic Items, Feat's can and will come from anywhere. Each character will have 88,000 in gold total. I am sorry, that Succubus does not seem very well "twinked" to me. Why is she using an expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists. Even if for some weird reason she needs to fight, she is better using a weapon. Like all outsiders she is proficient with all martial weapons. Likewise she should be wearing a mithril chain shirt and shield for a far higher AC. And some Con booster for better hit points. Why so much wisdom? Wouldn't more Int (and thusly more skill points) be better? (I would also use a 25 point buy, which is the standard one, YMMV here)
Argaud 03-21-07, 09:47 AM	Now you see why Level Adjustment doesn't work, like, at all. No, it works. But it forces races to follow certain classes so not to be underpowered. This is nothing new. Halfling barbarians are underpowered, so are half-orc sorcerers. Few would play those characters unless they are playing mostly for the concept (and adventuring parties looking for high-power recruits will avoid them). On the other hand grey elf wizards are better than other LA+0 races. With LA+n races exactly the same is happening, only that a greater degree.
runestar 03-21-07, 09:50 AM	Yes. And what if the Centaur wizard decides to take one fighter level at continue his career as an Eldritch Knight? Well, one way would be to decide on a suitable LA after the player has revealed his build. This means that a player who plans on playing a straight sorcerer would need to contend with a lower LA from a centaur race as compared to a player who plans to go sorc6/Eldritch knightX, since a centaur would benefit the latter more than the former. Naturally, this means that once the built has been mapped out from lv1-20 prior to the game, and a LA assigned by the dm, the player is also honour-bound to follow his original proposed build to the letter. :)
Kresalak 03-21-07, 09:59 AM	This is nothing new. Halfling barbarians are underpowered, so are half-orc sorcerers. Few would play those characters unless they are playing mostly for the concept (and adventuring parties looking for high-power recruits will avoid them). On the other hand grey elf wizards are better than other LA+0 races. With LA+n races exactly the same is happening, only that a greater degree. Yes, a halfling Barbarian is weaker than a (deep) halfling Rogue. However, assuming that the classes are actually balanced, he's not so much weaker that the Rogue's cohort can outperform him.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-21-07, 10:05 AM	Having seen some well-built halfling barbarians in action, I'd even dispute that they're necessarily weaker if done right. ;) But all the same, the problem remains. A halfling of any class is still fairly similar in power, much more so than the enormous disparity that going against an ECLed race's shtick causes. That's where fiddling with ECL needs to be done. If they're not playing to the race's strengths enough to make a level worth of difference to their effectiveness, the ECL/LA can be safely dropped. (I remember SKR saying as much during one of the discussions on his board.)
darrylhaines 03-21-07, 10:18 AM	LA's I have no problem with, it's the ECL when you have to add the LA's to the monster's hit dice. Why are they so high!
Kresalak 03-21-07, 10:19 AM	So that you won't play a monster race. That's literally the way they were designed.
Skeetweasel 03-21-07, 11:11 AM	Sucking? Seriously, how can you be excellent at anything when you're six levels in the hole and get nothing for it in return? How can you sit there and claim that a CR 7 creature makes an excellent party member in a level 12 party? What is it about crossing the imaginary line between npc and pc that's worth burning three dice of sneak attack, six skill ranks, three spell levels or an attack per round for? Because I have played and DMed for them. Have you? I have had a pixie rogue and a succubus with no levels and a good players who knew how to use them. I'm sorry you don't know how to play them. I see so many people saying, "I'm not powerful. My character isn't as strong as a druid, or cleric, or hulking hurler, or pun pun. Oh, woe is me." If you are so underpowered, talk with your DM. I'm sure you can whine enough so that the DM will make an exception just for you. And if it all really bothers you, change it. All you people complaining need a good DM. This game is not set in stone. All the rules are guidelines. Use you brain and come up with a new system for monster characters and if you want, post it here. Or just keep complaining, that always works.
Zumarai 03-21-07, 11:31 AM	Because I have played and DMed for them. Have you? I have had a pixie rogue and a succubus with no levels and a good players who knew how to use them. I'm sorry you don't know how to play them. I see so many people saying, "I'm not powerful. My character isn't as strong as a druid, or cleric, or hulking hurler, or pun pun. Oh, woe is me." If you are so underpowered, talk with your DM. I'm sure you can whine enough so that the DM will make an exception just for you. And if it all really bothers you, change it. All you people complaining need a good DM. This game is not set in stone. All the rules are guidelines. Use you brain and come up with a new system for monster characters and if you want, post it here. Or just keep complaining, that always works. Like it, Centurion, like it. I agree with everything you've posted (especially how bad-ass a succubus and pixie can be in the hands of a good player).
NineInchNall 03-21-07, 01:16 PM	You forgot to actually add a class level. LA assumes your monster actually takes a class level before you start playing with it. No, it doesn't. Where in the name of poop did you get that idea? That's what makes half-celestial and half-fiend so worthwhile. I thought I saw something long ago about templates only taking into account racial HD for determining special abilities, though. Must have been my imagination.
Zumarai 03-21-07, 01:22 PM	I thought I saw something long ago about templates only taking into account racial HD for determining special abilities, though. Must have been my imagination. In the revised Half-Fiend article on the WotC site, their SR only improves with racial HD.
NineInchNall 03-21-07, 01:26 PM	I will play an awakened Fleshraker Dinosaur barbarian. ECL 4. Why? Druids get that dino at as companion at level 4, yes? That is "access" :rolleyes: Okay, maybe level 6 since I get two extra HD? Barring for a moment the fact that fleshrakers are arguably overpowered and definitely under-CRed ... I don't know about a fleshraker Barbarian at ECL 4, but definitely at ECL 5. A fleshraker is an expendable and replacable class feature of a level four character. Give it a the gear of a level four character, and suddenly it's a viable, level four character, doing better in the melee role than a casting character's class feature. This shouldn't even be a controversial claim; it should be the standard by which melee characters are judged. A martial character should be a better warrior than a Druid's level-appropriate animal companion. In the revised Half-Fiend article on the WotC site, their SR only improves with racial HD. Ah, that must have been it.
Kresalak 03-21-07, 01:36 PM	I would argue that if a character is appropriate as a class feature of another character of his level, then he is by definition underpowered. Assuming that a Fleshraker is appropriate for a 4th level Druid, it should be an appropriate character for a 3rd level PC.
NineInchNall 03-21-07, 01:45 PM	*nods sagely in agreement*
Mr.Waesel 03-21-07, 01:48 PM	Because I have played and DMed for them. Have you? I have had a pixie rogue and a succubus with no levels and a good players who knew how to use them. I'm sorry you don't know how to play them. I see so many people saying, "I'm not powerful. My character isn't as strong as a druid, or cleric, or hulking hurler, or pun pun. Oh, woe is me." If you are so underpowered, talk with your DM. I'm sure you can whine enough so that the DM will make an exception just for you. And if it all really bothers you, change it. All you people complaining need a good DM. This game is not set in stone. All the rules are guidelines. Use you brain and come up with a new system for monster characters and if you want, post it here. Or just keep complaining, that always works. I'm trying to grasp your argument here. *I'm a bad DM. **This is because I have different experiences with monster characters than you *Rules don't need to be balanced because the DM can change them. **Therefore I'm complaining and/or whining Is that about right?
Grand Theft Otto 03-21-07, 02:11 PM	This time I agree with you 100% The Succubus is one of the creatures that might be worth the massive LA adjustment. There are many others, like Goliaths. But others really suck (like most giants) and then there are some templates or creatures with LAs that are just too low (mineral creature anyone? Or feral template? A glance to the CO boards easily reveals them! :)). LA adjustments are quite bad for full casters, too. And since some players think only full casters are good for anything at mid-high levels, they conclude all LA races are useless. :rolleyes: Check out that ettercap! He has a bunch of tanglefoot bags! I'd so much rather have a 5hd ettercap with an elite array than a 9th level cleric! Nix that, I'd take a friggin aristocrat over him. He'd blow at LA +0. **** you savage species authors. You wrote a book with the intention that it not be used. Even the crappiest runner up that I can think of at least pretends that its worthwhile. The ECL system needs to make use of the nonassociated level concept. So you can actually have a medium ECL character able to overcome SR and cast moderately useful spells. I loved the suggestion that a succubus take levels in a spellcaster, or warlock. Watch out for that scary 3d6 ranged touch attack as a standard action at 20th level! Who doesnt love throwing a single d4+1 magic missile at 13th level?
MingT 03-21-07, 07:54 PM	OK so I was fool enough to mention non asociated levels for NPC monsters and suddenly we have people saying "hey lets use that mechanic to fix monster PCs". Now thats BETTER than the current system, but much like the only other suggestion I've noted around here with the free LA commoner levels its not enough. Unlike the commoner suggestion it throws up some additional and pretty wierd junk as well. Now non associated levels are an admission by WOTC that multiclassing really doesn't stack well and that monsters with class levels are effectively multiclassing. But its a dodgey enough mechanic even with NPCs. So if your fix for the current system was to keep the current system, LA and CR and all and throw non associated levels as it exists on top of that you get some wierd issues with how many class levels you can get and still be a lower level than you really are according to ECL, or even hit die. So take that pixie, the useless one. Hell lets take the EXTRA useless one with one hit die and +6 LA. So he is a level 7 character to start and at that point sucks like a black hole. But he can take 6 levels of, well, basically anything (I mean whats he supposed to be?), and consider it a non associated class. So lets go with I dunno, Barbarian. You get six levels of barbarian for 3 more ECL. Now that STILL SUCKS, because you are level 10 and you have 7 hit die. So then you take ANOTHER non associated class, lets go with some prestige thingy, for six more levels, for 3 more ECL. NOW you get to be ECL 13 and have 13 hit die, e-gads you are on par! So then you DO IT AGAIN, and get to ECL 16 with 19 hit die, ooops, theres a problem again... and so on... The bigger your monster hit die and LA the bigger the wierd gaps that will occur if you use non associated class mechanics, as they stand, or to varying degrees even with modifications. So You have the same problems the current system has with ridiculously underpowered monster PCs, which lasts for many many levels of game play, then they eventually catch up, for one to two levels, then they take over and do crazy junk for many many levels of game play. A lot, lot more needs to be done.
sigma999 03-21-07, 08:09 PM	Hmm, you mean that by me pointing out that some races have abilities that shoehorn them into certain character roles and either make them sub-optimal or even unusable for a certain class, in addition to the problem of how LA can interact with monstrous hitdie, isn't related to the discussion, please explain this. No. But you are either vain or presumptuous, I addressed the crowd of arguing in general, but since you bit the bait it looks like you are part of it.. nice comeback to staying in topic though and I'm still trying to formulate an exact opinion on the matter (that I haven't mentioned in a GAZILLION threads before) Personally I'd do away with LAs entirely. Ever since the "inheritor" feats or w/e they name is came out, like Abyssal Inheritor, the Aberration bloodline feats with tentacles n eyes (Lords of Madness), and the Fey one (in Complete Mage), I see the direct comparison between modular feats such as these and a chunk package deal, such as slapping on a template, as somehow compatible. There's room for improvement, sure, but I wish Wizards would hurry it up and make something like a "half-fiend inheritor feat track" or similar.
TheDarkLord 03-21-07, 08:15 PM	I am sorry, that Succubus does not seem very well "twinked" to me. Why is she using an expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists. Even if for some weird reason she needs to fight, she is better using a weapon. Like all outsiders she is proficient with all martial weapons. Likewise she should be wearing a mithril chain shirt and shield for a far higher AC. And some Con booster for better hit points. Why so much wisdom? Wouldn't more Int (and thusly more skill points) be better? (I would also use a 25 point buy, which is the standard one, YMMV here) Eh, I could change it no big deal. It's still in the works. At most she'll be able to have another +2 to fortitude and all. Skill points are still not a problem because she only has the skill's she is listed with. Wisdom is better for the Will save. And if i remember correctly Outsiders are only proficient with armor if their listed with it. Though I will have her weild a weapon. Either way, the Druid and Ranger with a LA +0 class is looking far, far better at this point. There is no way that POS succubus should be in a party at level 12.
Kresalak 03-21-07, 08:27 PM	A lot, lot more needs to be done. Well, the problem is that monsters are designed in a way that they're perfectly capable of performing at their level, but no consideration is given to making them perform at other levels. Some are easy to advance-a Fire Giant is basically a Fighter, and you can (assuming that the Fighter is balanced) advance him like any other. Basically, this is the monsters-as-characters method proposed in Races of War, and it works as long as you throw level adjustments in with the rest of the garbage and work by Challenge Rating instead. However, other monsters are not so easy. A Succubus has a predefined set of abilities that never advance. She's perfectly viable as an 8th level character, but there are no classes (barring Tome of Fiends) that synergize with her abilities, which forces her to start a class over from level one. You could try something like having her cast as a 6th or 7th level Beguiler instead of getting SLAs, but that has the problem of forcing a Succubus into one role. This is the same problem that the Fire Giant has, since he can only be a melee character. Sure, most people who play a Succubus want to play the Beguiler role, but the redeemed Succubus Paladin is totally cool (and hot) and the people who want to play that shouldn't be punished.
runestar 03-21-07, 09:46 PM	Well, there are the fiend of XXX prcs in fiend folio. The possession one complements a succubus quite well, IMO.:) I agree that some monsters come across as dead end progressions, since there are few builds, if any which can be used to complement their strengths. For example, I have no idea how an ogre mage or satyr build is to be continued after you are done with the progression. However, this seems more like an innate weakness of the concept of the creature itself, and has nothing to do with the concept of LA whatsoever.:confused: Don't just lump all the problems together with LA because it seems convenient...:confused:
Kresalak 03-21-07, 09:50 PM	I'm not blaming level adjustment for that. Level adjustment is by definition broken, and is completely unsalvageable.
Archangel62 03-22-07, 02:36 AM	This usually aplies to ALL clases. There is NO reason, absolulty NONE whatsoever, to lose class levels. If you're a rogue, there is no excuse to lose sneak attacks or skills. The bonus on DEX or INT don't make up ranks, or rogue special abilities. If you're a spellcaster, losing spellcaster levels is NOT like shooting your self in the leg, it's like ripping your head off. That INT bonus means crap if you're casting level inappropriate spells. And if you're a fighter, well, you're a fighter. You're based on BAB and you don't have BAB, but high STR. I agree with you in some areas except some monstrous abilities synergize better or offer more than regular abilities. You'll notice that most fighter and for that matter most martial builds can handle a LA2-3 for the character so long as it nets the player some good stat bonuses and useful abilities like reach or other things that outweigh the inconvenience of some feat loss. For a caster they are gaining abilities slower and at a generally lower pace, most things that actually feed well into casters are fairly high LA, Mephlings being an exception. My entire point is that yes, the LA system is screwy but part of that comes from the designers being concerned about the power level of a monstrous character in a game with 'standard' characters. Look at how much we argue over supplimental races, over core classes (hell supplimental classes) and most of those are fairly balanced as far as that goes, imagine now trying to design each monster to be a suitable challenge and at the same time work out ways to make it a suitable PC race, you can see where some problems could creep in. Sometimes they try to compromise, half ogres or half-trolls, or they work out level equivalent bonuses for certain monstrous races. As a slightly different example, what if there was a new race released called the 'Avatar' it has the human traits of an extra skill and feat as well as having +2 to each stat, a +1 level adjustment might be accurate but some might argue that it needs a higher one because it is good at ANY class and has no weak areas. Others would argue to look at it solely based on its own merits versus other races, not on how it might be used compared to them. Now imagine trying to juggle multiple abilities, combined with class combinations, access to magical equipment, and widely varying gamestyles and you can see how something like monstrous characters can be hard to impliment. I would also rather see a better system but I also understand that it can be hard to determine what is proper, do they say "Well, if we factor in the HD the level adjustment and that together is excessive so let's not give a level adjustment at all" or "Hmm...maybe we say that they strip the HD and feats gained through it and just work off the level adjustment" or maybe even "Ok, we don't know exactly how this will work in a game, but a DM that sees it and finds it excessive can always lower the LA, and that way the player is unlikely to rebel too much, but if the DM starts spiking the level adjustments players are going to complain and we also risk the DMs buying fewer monster manuals and other related suppliments."? It's also a question of compared loss. If there is a +1 LA race that gave me a +20 int -4 str I'd take that for my wizard in a heartbeat. The problem is that something like that is just a smidge overpowered. Most of the low tier LA stuff is martially oriented and a few are skill based but almost none are caster based, my reasoning on this is that WotC realized that casters have a strong edge as it is and that maybe if they can't use new rules to upgun martial characters new races might fill that role.
Archangel62 03-22-07, 02:44 AM	No. But you are either vain or presumptuous, I addressed the crowd of arguing in general, but since you bit the bait it looks like you are part of it.. nice comeback to staying in topic though and I'm still trying to formulate an exact opinion on the matter (that I haven't mentioned in a GAZILLION threads before) Personally I'd do away with LAs entirely. Ever since the "inheritor" feats or w/e they name is came out, like Abyssal Inheritor, the Aberration bloodline feats with tentacles n eyes (Lords of Madness), and the Fey one (in Complete Mage), I see the direct comparison between modular feats such as these and a chunk package deal, such as slapping on a template, as somehow compatible. There's room for improvement, sure, but I wish Wizards would hurry it up and make something like a "half-fiend inheritor feat track" or similar. I admit that I am rather arrogant, somewhat presumptuous, and rather vain in the area of intellectual argument, not proud of it in particular but I admit it. I had thought it was addressed at me because it was written right after a post of mine and MingT and I had been arguing back and forth so the tone you used made it seem that you were addressing he and I. It was not the case so I apologize if I offended you or showed any aggression to you, I misinterpreted and that was my mistake. As to your idea, I actually like it quite a bit, I'd rather do something closer to minor templating that advanced with levels, or something like the bloodline rules in Unearthed Arcana. The big problem is that LA is hard to gauge, an Aasimar is probably worth a partial LA, same with Tiefling or a Hobgoblin. A Goliath is one of the few worth a full LA and even there there is some question. I think the big problem is this, some monstrous abilities can synergize strangely with feats and class abilities and the designers didn't want to handcuff the designers in the monster department. Remember, these exact things are also what fueled the numerous debates on the nature of polymorph, the dangers involved and the sheer level of obscenity that can come from it.
Argaud 03-22-07, 02:55 AM	Eh, I could change it no big deal. It's still in the works. At most she'll be able to have another +2 to fortitude and all. Skill points are still not a problem because she only has the skill's she is listed with. Wisdom is better for the Will save. And if i remember correctly Outsiders are only proficient with armor if their listed with it. Though I will have her weild a weapon. Either way, the Druid and Ranger with a LA +0 class is looking far, far better at this point. There is no way that POS succubus should be in a party at level 12. I don't think 6 more points of AC is a small deal either (AC35 is quite good for a level 12 character). No, she does not have armor proficiencies, but mithril chainshirt and a mithril shield have no ACP, so all is good. More Con means also more hit points, which she needs badly. An item of +4 Con will give her 66. About the same a human wizard with an item +4 would have. More skills are good since she can take any Knowledge skill. And don't forget 4 crossclass ranks in UMD. She has at least a +12 from Cha. Even with just her base Int (16) she has 99 skill points. A level 12 bard with normal intelligence has just 90.
catharz 03-22-07, 03:48 AM	Well, there are the fiend of XXX prcs in fiend folio. The possession one complements a succubus quite well, IMO.:) So you would argue that the Fiend of Possession and the succubus are both well balanced? Because it seems to me that a lower ECL Fiend of Possession will just wipe the floor with any PC succubus, as well as most level appropriate encounters. It sounds a lot like the 'fighter easter egg' argument: Fighters are balanced because they can kick ass with the artifact weapons they wield.
runestar 03-22-07, 04:43 AM	Because it seems to me that a lower ECL Fiend of Possession will just wipe the floor with any PC succubus, as well as most level appropriate encounters. I for one am most interested to see how you are able to qualify for a fiend of possession much earlier. Among its few prereqs is the need for the evil subtype(IIRC), and barring the dretch, the succubus is the lowest ECL fiend which can qualify for it, or at least according to the best of my knowledge. I am not aware of any other means of procuring the evil subtype, unless you mean PAO or the like...:confused: Okay, a dretch with 1 class lv possessing good will saves could enter into it...
Zumarai 03-22-07, 06:28 AM	Level adjustment is by definition broken, and is completely unsalvageable. …To you maybe. It seems to work just fine in the campaign I'm running, where we have a Drow Psion and a Half-Celestial Human Psychic Rogue, and the rest of the party are LA +0 races.
Mr.Waesel 03-22-07, 06:43 AM	…To you maybe. It seems to work just fine in the campaign I'm running, where we have a Drow Psion and a Half-Celestial Human Psychic Rogue, and the rest of the party are LA +0 races. So cicumstantial evidence carries more weight than what the designer of the book said?
runestar 03-22-07, 06:54 AM	Well, the fact does remain that there are players who have had favourable experiences with difficult races. There may be few, but they are there. This suggests that it is not impossible to play an SS progression, as some people seem hellbent on driving home. Perhaps merely tricky or difficult. But possible.:)
Zumarai 03-22-07, 06:56 AM	So cicumstantial evidence carries more weight than what the designer of the book said? To any specific campaign, yes. Just because they maybe went out of their way to make playing monster races with a LA less attractive doesn't mean it cannot work, and is worthless and weak (as Needermyer would say). Oh, no, the designer said such and such, boo hoo. If the designers of a D&D book told you to walk off a cliff…well…you know…
Kresalak 03-22-07, 07:16 AM	If the designers of a D&D book told you to walk off a cliff…well…you know… Ok, this isn't applicable at all. We're not doing whatever the designer said-we're trusting him on his word about things that he did. This quote is, in fact, applicable to your side of the debate, as you're the ones trusting that level adjustments are balanced because they were written into the books.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 07:26 AM	Ok, this isn't applicable at all. We're not doing whatever the designer said-we're trusting him on his word about things that he did. This quote is, in fact, applicable to your side of the debate, as you're the ones trusting that level adjustments are balanced because they were written into the books. You shouldn't trust people you don't know intimately, and even then… I don't blindly trust anything; I'm just saying that from "actual" experience, LA's have not proven to be as worthless and horrible as a lot of people seem to think. In fact, I think they're fantastic! …But that's just me, and I'm crazy...crazy like a fox!
Zyrusticae 03-22-07, 07:40 AM	It seems to work just fine in the campaign I'm running, where we have a Drow Psion and a Half-Celestial Human Psychic Rogue, and the rest of the party are LA +0 races. Which are only two races. Out of many, many dozens. It just means that those particular races are balanced well; it says nothing for the rest of the system. (Those two are also, coincidentally, relatively low-level races.)
Zumarai 03-22-07, 07:55 AM	Which are only two races. Out of many, many dozens. It just means that those particular races are balanced well; it says nothing for the rest of the system. (Those two are also, coincidentally, relatively low-level races.) I've also seen someone play the Astral Deva savage progression from SS and it rocked the free world. So, no, it is not limited to low-level races.
Kresalak 03-22-07, 08:02 AM	You shouldn't trust people you don't know intimately, and even then… So you're saying that when a designer says that he did something, with no motive to lie, we shouldn't trust him? But wait, how can I trust you aren't lying? How can I trust that you're all just lying about everything you say? Perhaps it's because you have no reason to lie about this? Also, anecdotal evidence proves nothing.
runestar 03-22-07, 08:15 AM	So you're saying that when a designer says that he did something, with no motive to lie, we shouldn't trust him? Well, intent and consequence can be 2 completely separate things. Say I intended to shoot person A, but missed and hit person B instead. Perhaps they did intend to hose monster PCs by inflating LAs, but who is to say that perhaps even they screwed that up and LAs which they thought were unreasonable actually turned out otherwise? BTW, since I do not own SS, how exactly was said statement phrased? Did the designer actually explicitly say that the LAs were deliberately inflated to screw over players who wanted to play monster PCs? Why then even release the SS handbook?:confused: Anyways, this seems to be going nowhere. You don't believe people when they say they have had positive experiences with powerful races, and I doubt you ever will, however much truth there may be to it?:confused: The book might mention it, but how you expect someone to believe it when he has had experiences contrary to what is purported?:confused:
Kresalak 03-22-07, 08:34 AM	What was your actual point, that we can't trust that the designer was telling the truth when he said that they deliberately overcosted everything in Savage Species? Or was it the meaningless anecdotal evidence? In my experience, every character with a level adjustment has been grossly underpowered. Now that I've countered your anecdote, please raise an actual point.
Argaud 03-22-07, 08:45 AM	What was your actual point, that we can't trust that the designer was telling the truth when he said that they deliberately overcosted everything in Savage Species? Or was it the meaningless anecdotal evidence? In my experience, every character with a level adjustment has been grossly underpowered. Now that I've countered your anecdote, please raise an actual point. Are you basing your statements on your experience? If so, aren't they automatically anecdotical evidence? What races/templates exactly did you see as grossly underpowered? Goliaths? Half-dragons? Mineral template? Dragons? Succubus? Phrenic humans? Drow? If you aren't talking from experience? What the hell are you talking about? Catch22 A) All your experience is anecdotical, so it is worthless. B) If you have no experience you have no idea of what you are talking about.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 08:51 AM	What was your actual point, that we can't trust that the designer was telling the truth when he said that they deliberately overcosted everything in Savage Species? Or was it the meaningless anecdotal evidence? In my experience, every character with a level adjustment has been grossly underpowered. Now that I've countered your anecdote, please raise an actual point. Why must you be so personal and aggressive/insulting, just because someone doesn't agree with you? My point was is that in my experience LA's are fine. If my experiences/opinions are "meaningless" (as you put it), than so are yours. And why are you getting so wrapped up in this and inflammatory, and what is exactly is your problem? As that guy says in the commercial "Relax, dear, it's only a commercial." But for you, replace commercial with the word "game". Anyway, take care and beware of devious midgets.
runestar 03-22-07, 08:57 AM	Perhaps it might help if we started compiling a list of just which monsters we feel have a fair LA/ECL. Do you think it will help the argument? At first glance...(will update periodically) astral deva(possibly strong backup/support fighter-type) black ethergaunt(decent spellcaster, if you are willing to suck up a LA+3 race for the bonuses) bralani(blur+mirror image at will, seems cool, might make for decent support fighter) centaur(good fighter) feral(plain broken, not sure if many dms will allow or not) feytouched(decent stat bonuses, immunities, fair LA+1 race) ghaele(great all-round support, tricky to play, but can be quite rewarding) grig(all round good bonuses, makes for good rogue?) grimlock???(looks like a plausible race for melee types) goliath(excellent fighter, especially when you splash 1 lv of barb) gold dragon???(decent fighter, backup skill monkey/scout?) half dragon(seems slightly overcosted, but might be useful for fighters at mid lvs) half fey(con penalty does not mesh well with LA, but the SLAs look very tempting) half fiend/celestial???(nice bonuses, but not sure if worth the LA+4) half-giant(seems slightly inferior to goliath, but psionic subtype could prove useful) hound archon???(seems they placed a high premium on aid at will and those auras) janni(not sure about its strengths, but seems like a fun rogue/fighter race) lizardfolk???(Good NA, albeit at a premium) maug(good stats, NA, immunities, no con, but should still make a good fighter) mineral warrior(tricky to qualify, but bonuses are possibly quite undercosted) minotaur(great fighter, reflex/will saves) ogre(seems inferior to centaur, but should still make for viable fighter) pixie - LA+4 version(looks like a decent tactical archer/fighter? Low HD, but hard to hit) sylph(good sorc, effectively just a LA+1 caster race) succubus thri-keen(4 arms, king of MWFing, but will need some effort to trick out) troll???(seems like a good fighter type with enough class lvs) yak folk(seems like a reasonable fighter type at ELC4) Feel free to add your 2 cents, good or bad. Though do please try to be civil. Thank you very much.:)
Kresalak 03-22-07, 09:01 AM	Are you basing your statements on your experience? If so, aren't they automatically anecdotical evidence? What races/templates exactly did you see as grossly underpowered? Goliaths? Half-dragons? Mineral template? Dragons? Succubus? Phrenic humans? Drow? If you aren't talking from experience? What the hell are you talking about? Catch22 A) All your experience is anecdotical, so it is worthless. B) If you have no experience you have no idea of what you are talking about. My argument is based on experience, but I don't use my experience as my argument. The goliath sucks. At low levels it's a glass cannon, and at high levels the cost of one level outweighs the benefit of Powerful Build, +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con. Half-dragons have the same problem, only many times worse. Mineral Warriors are unstoppable at low levels thanks to DR 8/you don't have it, and at high levels they're roughly balanced with a level of a crappy class like Barbarian. Since a good portion of the game is low level, they're overpowered and that's also bad. Dragons are a whole 'nother topic, and I could rant a ton about how much they suck. Succubi are playable at level 12, and available to a Cleric at level 7. Wizards get them at 9. Phrenic is a kick in the nuts, as it will never even match two levels of Psion. Drow are horrible. They're not even glass cannons, they're just bad. They get no offense, no defense, and no bonuses even close to two levels in any class. All they get is spell resistance, which isn't even as good as a single 5th level spell.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 09:04 AM	Perhaps it might help if we started compiling a list of just which monsters we feel have a fair LA/ECL. Do you think it will help the argument? At first glance... astral deva black ethergaunt centaur ghaele grig goliath gold dragon??? lizardfolk??? minotaur ogre pixie(LA+4 version) sylph succubus Feel free to add your 2 cents, good or bad. Though do please try to be civil. Thank you very much.:) Ah, herein lies the problem. But to get back to your question of fair LA's (IMO): Half-Celestial/Fey/Fiend Template Janni Drow Feytouched Planetouched Half-Giant Hound Archon …I'll get back to ya with some more.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 09:08 AM	The goliath sucks. At low levels it's a glass cannon, and at high levels the cost of one level outweighs the benefit of Powerful Build, +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con. Half-dragons have the same problem, only many times worse. Mineral Warriors are unstoppable at low levels thanks to DR 8/you don't have it, and at high levels they're roughly balanced with a level of a crappy class like Barbarian. Since a good portion of the game is low level, they're overpowered and that's also bad. Dragons are a whole 'nother topic, and I could rant a ton about how much they suck. Succubi are playable at level 12, and available to a Cleric at level 7. Wizards get them at 9. Phrenic is a kick in the nuts, as it will never even match two levels of Psion. Drow are horrible. They're not even glass cannons, they're just bad. They get no offense, no defense, and no bonuses even close to two levels in any class. All they get is spell resistance, which isn't even as good as a single 5th level spell. This is all either one, or both of the following: opinion, or wild conjecture. Pick one for us, please?
Argaud 03-22-07, 09:15 AM	Perhaps it might help if we started compiling a list of just which monsters we feel have a fair LA/ECL. Do you think it will help the argument? At first glance... astral deva black ethergaunt centaur ghaele grig goliath gold dragon??? lizardfolk??? minotaur ogre pixie(LA+4 version) sylph succubus Feel free to add your 2 cents, good or bad. Though do please try to be civil. Thank you very much.:) This might be a good idea. Although "at first glance" might be a too weak testing method. I am much more interested in knowing the impressions of folks that have played the creatures or seen them played in a group. At my first glace I am pretty sure any giant, except maybe the ogre is going to suck very badly. And the minotaur seems better than the ogre, too. Giant HD are among the worse out there :mad: At my first glance beholders are not ECL24. LA +13 is way too much. In my experience Drow are weak for LA+2. But they do fine for LA+1 (once the DM allowed to buy down the LA to match the CR, this being a houserule). Half-dragons do great as warrior types, even with the big LA+3 adjustment. I have seen a half-fiend once, my impression was that it was weak, the problem being his abilities, although impressive, are too scattered to make the template particularly effective in any particular field. I have seen a high-level half-ogre warrior-oriented cleric in action and he is fairly powerful, but not as powerful as I expected. In my experience a half-fey paladin is very formidable (and the target of many gay jokes).
Zumarai 03-22-07, 09:19 AM	In my experience a half-fey paladin is very formidable (and the target of many gay jokes). That template kicks some serious booty.
runestar 03-22-07, 10:10 AM	The troll looks too looks like it could make for a viable fighter, once it has the chance to take some class lvs to really take full advantage of its phenomenal con score. I admit playing it may be a challenge at around ECL11 though. The Maug too looks like a good race for a fighter class. Loss of con may be a bitter pill to swallow, but they get good NA and kickarse construct immunities. The templates like half dragon or phrenic might be better off at higher lvs, when your foundation is more or less stabilized with sufficient HD(so you have no lack of saves and hp). Any more? This is starting to look up.:)
Zumarai 03-22-07, 10:12 AM	The Maug too looks like a good race for a fighter class. Loss of con may be a bitter pill to swallow, but they get good NA and kickarse construct immunities. Love these dudes!
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-22-07, 10:26 AM	Zumarai, it is discussions like these that make me happy that my group doesn't use monster races...ever. I find that discouraging monster races is fine. You just have to play a half dragon ogre then you pay the price. I cetrainly won't cry that the character is not equal to a straight human one of the same class.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 10:54 AM	Zumarai, it is discussions like these that make me happy that my group doesn't use monster races...ever. What about a template or a LA race such as goliath/drow etc?
Finfreeze 03-22-07, 11:02 AM	As-is, I think level adjustments work as a concept. However, more should be done to accurately rate LAs for monsters, and spellcasting monsters should be given free caster levels and be allowed to improve their spellcasting with racial HD. Those changes would help even things out. ... But it may be better in the long run to use a variant of the Modern rules for level adjustments: LEVEL ADJUSTMENT AND CHALLENGE RATING Particularly powerful Shadowkind species have a Level Adjustment, which reflects how much more powerful these species are compared to “baseline” species (such as elves, dwarves, and humans). When you add this Level Adjustment to a character’s total class levels (or character level), the result is a character’s Challenge Rating (CR). The formula for determining a character’s Challenge Rating (CR) is as follows: CR = Character Level + Level Adjustment CR is used to determine a character’s relative power compared to other characters. A character’s CR is never used to determine how or when a character gains new skills and feats, nor does it have any effect on talents, spells, and abilities that use character levels. However, a character’s CR is used to determine how many experience points the character needs to advance in level (see Experience, below). EXPERIENCE Characters with a Level Adjustment of +1 or higher do not begin play with 0 XP, as humans and other “baseline” characters do. As representatives of more powerful Shadowkind species, they are assumed to have amassed XP before taking their first class level. Powerful Shadowkind use their CR instead of level when determining the experience they start with and the amount needed to gain a level. This setup allows for more flexibility in ECL assignment, particularly for those humanoids with few exceptional abilities. Consider the following rebalanced races: BUGBEAR Size: Medium. Bugbears have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Ability Modifiers: +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma. Extra Starting Hit Dice: A bugbear gains 3 Hit Dice (3d8 hit points). The bugbear’s Constitution modifier applies to each Hit Die when determining hit points. Base Speed: 30 feet. Natural Armor Bonus: Bugbears have tough hides and gain a +3 natural armor bonus to Defense. Attack Bonus: Bugbears gain a +2 species bonus on attack rolls. Darkvision: Bugbears can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and bugbears can function with no light at all. Scent: Bugbears may use their keen sense of smell to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Allegiance: Bugbears must begin play with an allegiance to chaos, evil, or both. Skill Bonus: Bugbears gain a +4 species bonus on Move Silently checks. Bonus Feat: Bugbears gain the bonus feat Simple Weapons Proficiency. Free Language Skills: Read/Write Goblin (or local language), Speak Goblin (or local language). Other Languages: Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Undertongue. Level Adjustment: +2. GNOLL Size: Medium. Gnolls have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Ability Modifiers: +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma. Extra Starting Hit Dice: A gnoll gains 2 Hit Dice (2d8 hit points). The gnoll’s Constitution modifier applies to each Hit Die when determining hit points. Base Speed: 30 feet. Natural Armor Bonus: Gnolls have tough hides and gain a +1 natural armor bonus to Defense. Attack Bonus: Gnolls gain a +1 species bonus on attack rolls. Darkvision: Gnolls can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and gnolls can function with no light at all. Allegiance: Gnolls must begin play with an allegiance to chaos, evil, or both. Bonus Feat: Gnolls gain the bonus feat Simple Weapons Proficiency. Free Language Skills: Read/Write Gnoll (or local language), Speak Gnoll (or local language). Other Languages: Common, Goblin, Orc. Level Adjustment: +1. As far as I can tell, you don't get the feats or save boosts from the added hit dice, but you keep the con bonus and get an attack roll bonus to compensate. It does seem to be an elegant alternative, even though you're playing a somewhat watered-down version of the monster on the box (check the bugbear monster entry and compare it to its shadowkind character section). I certainly wished they gave out notes on the d20 Past siren, since it's like a harpy without the stupidity and the inflated HD.
WayneTheGame 03-22-07, 11:17 AM	The problem I'm noticing here is that folks keep bringing up MECHANICS as an argument for "Race X is worthless." What the hell ever happened to playing something because you thought it would be cool? People might not play a Succubus because of the "leet powers" it gets, but because they want to play a Succubus! Is that such a hard concept to grasp? Mechanics-wise yes it might be weaker than a cleric or a wizard or whatever due to the level hit, but someone who wants to play it would be aware of that beforehand. So there is no problem. If someone wants to play a high LA creature because they think it would be a cool idea, then I say more power to them.
WayneTheGame 03-22-07, 12:00 PM	So you resort to flaming and insults? I'm somehow a jerk because I want to let someone play a concept, no matter what it is? Let me explain: If someone CHOOSES to play a monster race because they think it would be cool... this is bad? You think that you are "obligated" to say "No, don't do that because you will suck!" to them? Me: I want to play a (high LA creature) You: I can't let you do that.. they suck because (give up HD, whatever) Me: So? I think it'd be cool. You: No! It's not cool! It sucks! That's basically what you're saying: That nobody can play something that "sucks" in your view. If the player in your example has no problem giving up said six HD or whatever because they find that they want to play a "master swordsman" as your example cites, what the hell is the problem?? The player who wants to play it doesn't CARE what they have to give up, they want to play their concept because they think it's fun! I must be missing something here. If you're going to reply then try to be polite and not come across with the "You're a retard who can't see what I'm talking about" mentality. That stuff might go well over on the Gaming Den, but not here. If you're trying to have a mature discussion then have a mature discussion; don't dismiss those who disagree with you as idiots.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-22-07, 12:52 PM	What about a template or a LA race such as goliath/drow etc? Most of those don't have racial hd and so you only give up a level or two. That isn't that big a deal, IMO anyway. I have trouble with people that want to play a hill giant bard and then complain that their bardic music stinks or the people that want to play a thrikreen multiweapon fighting rogue and then say that their SA isn't high enough to be effective.
Grand Theft Otto 03-22-07, 12:53 PM	OK so I was fool enough to mention non asociated levels for NPC monsters and suddenly we have people saying "hey lets use that mechanic to fix monster PCs". Now thats BETTER than the current system, but much like the only other suggestion I've noted around here with the free LA commoner levels its not enough. Unlike the commoner suggestion it throws up some additional and pretty wierd junk as well. Now non associated levels are an admission by WOTC that multiclassing really doesn't stack well and that monsters with class levels are effectively multiclassing. But its a dodgey enough mechanic even with NPCs. Its a better way than the current system. NOW you get to be ECL 13 and have 13 hit die, e-gads you are on par! So then you DO IT AGAIN, and get to ECL 16 with 19 hit die, ooops, theres a problem again... and so on... You stop counting them as nonassociated after a certain point. Say for instance you have an ogre mage. 5 HD, +7 LA for a total of ECL 12. Lets say you want an Ogre Mage Wizard. Thats a nonassociated class. So every 2 levels of wizard counts as 1, until the total is twice the LA. Afterwards its 1 for 1. So you add 10 levels of wizard. His ECL is now 17. He has 15 HD. Still kind of sucky, but better than the joke that is now. You add 14 levels of wizard, hes ECL 19, with 19 HD. From now on, each level of wizard will count as 1 level. So an ogre mage with 14 levels of wizard is a 20th level character. Like I said, its not perfect, but its more in line than saying an 8th level ogre mage wizard can do squat in a 20th level adventure.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 12:59 PM	He's getting aggressive because you haven't offered any arguments, only condescending quips and stories of your own experience. Some of us are actually trying to have a meaningful discussion, and undermining people ability to converse is, well, rude and disingenuous. Who is this "us"? Certainly not you, as all you've done is just display rudeness towards WayneTheGame and myself. Please grow up and stop resorting to personal insults (like basically telling Wayne he's a jerk), all it does is take away any credibility you might have had. So quit being so negative, I'm sure we can work this out without insulting each other.
Fwib 03-22-07, 01:01 PM	So you resort to flaming and insults? I'm somehow a jerk because I want to let someone play a concept, no matter what it is? Let me explain: If someone CHOOSES to play a monster race because they think it would be cool... this is bad? You think that you are "obligated" to say "No, don't do that because you will suck!" to them? Me: I want to play a (high LA creature) You: I can't let you do that.. they suck because (give up HD, whatever) Me: So? I think it'd be cool. You: No! It's not cool! It sucks! That's basically what you're saying: That nobody can play something that "sucks" in your view. If the player in your example has no problem giving up said six HD or whatever because they find that they want to play a "master swordsman" as your example cites, what the hell is the problem?? The player who wants to play it doesn't CARE what they have to give up, they want to play their concept because they think it's fun! I must be missing something here. If you're going to reply then try to be polite and not come across with the "You're a retard who can't see what I'm talking about" mentality. That stuff might go well over on the Gaming Den, but not here. If you're trying to have a mature discussion then have a mature discussion; don't dismiss those who disagree with you as idiots.I believe that the point that was intended to be made was: All characters should have the potential to attain the same level of power. If there are a variety of character concepts that are simply underpowered, then this is bad. The power level of a character should not be related to the form their power takes.
Grand Theft Otto 03-22-07, 01:11 PM	So you resort to flaming and insults? I'm somehow a jerk because I want to let someone play a concept, no matter what it is? Let me explain: If someone CHOOSES to play a monster race because they think it would be cool... this is bad? You think that you are "obligated" to say "No, don't do that because you will suck!" to them? I think he's saying that the DM should try and fix it so that they contribute just as much as the next party member. In many cases, and for many race/class combos, the ECL as written hampers that. What is particularly frustrating is that they were instructed to design the rules for playing something in such a fashion as to discourage their use.
WayneTheGame 03-22-07, 01:12 PM	I understand that, and if he explained like that I'd have had no problem. However it seemed to come across as "Even if the player doesn't care about the hit, they're wrong for playing something that's weak and you're a jerk if you let them.". Not to mention that as Zumarai pointed out he's been nothing but rude to everyone who has hinted that he's wrong.
NineInchNall 03-22-07, 02:42 PM	So you resort to flaming and insults? I'm somehow a jerk because I want to let someone play a concept, no matter what it is? No, it's being inconsiderate to force someone to play something sucky. Period. You are right to want the player to be able to play his concept, but playing that concept should not force inefficacy upon him. That's just plain meanspirited. Did I fly off the handle? Yes, and for that I'm sorry, but my point remains. Let me explain: If someone CHOOSES to play a monster race because they think it would be cool... this is bad? You think that you are "obligated" to say "No, don't do that because you will suck!" to them? Me: I want to play a (high LA creature) You: I can't let you do that.. they suck because (give up HD, whatever) Me: So? I think it'd be cool. You: No! It's not cool! It sucks! No, I guess I wasn't completely clear. What I'm saying is that this should happen: You: I want to play a (insert nonstandard, powerful creature) Me: Hmm, it appears that the standard WotC system has made those underpowered at that ECL. No, you may not play that. You: So you're not gonna let me play it? Me: Right. I'm not going to let you play it like that. Here, let me drop this stupid LA system and replace it with something that works, something that will let you play the creature that you want without having to suck. You: Oh! So you're going to let me play the thing I want, and it won't suck? Me: Yup. Have fun. You: Sweet! That's basically what you're saying: That nobody can play something that "sucks" in your view. If the player in your example has no problem giving up said six HD or whatever because they find that they want to play a "master swordsman" as your example cites, what the hell is the problem?? The player who wants to play it doesn't CARE what they have to give up, they want to play their concept because they think it's fun! I want that person to have as much fun as possible. I would feel like a jerk if I didn't make that choice of his comparable with the members of his party. I understand that, and if he explained like that I'd have had no problem. However it seemed to come across as "Even if the player doesn't care about the hit, they're wrong for playing something that's weak and you're a jerk if you let them.". Not to mention that as Zumarai pointed out he's been nothing but rude to everyone who has hinted that he's wrong. Did I say that the player was wrong? No. I implied that it is inconsiderate of one's friends to give them poor, substandard versions of what they want to play when a better system than the current one can be found. Look at it this way, assuming that you know that a given creature is overcosted with respect to ECL, what purpose would there be in not adjusting things in order to remove that imbalance? Why not make the option better in order to give him the concept that he wants and the efficacy that he deserves? EDIT: And furthermore, I've "been nothing but rude to everyone who has hinted that wrong?" Throughout this thread (prior to implying jerkitude) I have said exactly two things that might be considered rude: "No, it doesn't. Where in the name of poop did you get that idea?" "Wow, a level 12 character can cast [i]charm monster. That's totally awesome and 73h r0xx0rz."
ArcTan 03-22-07, 02:49 PM	Well, the fact does remain that there are players who have had favourable experiences with difficult races. There may be few, but they are there. This suggests that it is not impossible to play an SS progression, as some people seem hellbent on driving home. Perhaps merely tricky or difficult. But possible.:) I'd point out that it's possible to do anything in any book as long as you have a smart DM who's rampantly fudging things in your favor. This is why balance arguments about D&D based on empirical evidence are so difficult -- a good DM's job is to make the game fun for his players, not to create a fair testbed for the mechanics the designer made up, and may well fool a player into thinking his Pixie Barbarian was an awesome character by intentionally pulling his punches so the player doesn't go home and cry.
ArcTan 03-22-07, 02:56 PM	I understand that, and if he explained like that I'd have had no problem. However it seemed to come across as "Even if the player doesn't care about the hit, they're wrong for playing something that's weak and you're a jerk if you let them.". Not to mention that as Zumarai pointed out he's been nothing but rude to everyone who has hinted that he's wrong. The problem is that, realistically, if I'm the DM and this happens, I *have* to fudge. If I don't fudge, and I play with the gloves off and treat the PC with the crippling LA the same way I treat all the other PCs, he will die. Again and again, he will die. And he will be upset, and the game will bog down and be unpleasant while the other players deal with him dying, and I will inevitably come off as the jerk for things like using cloudkill on him or having my bad guys make their saves against all his SLAs or whatever. So instead I have to fudge, and find ways so that I can keep on having NPCs fail their saves on *his* SLAs without becoming wet tissue paper for the spells of the LA +0 Human Wizard, and just happen not to hit with any of my AoOs against him, and just happen not to cast any HD-based spells against him, or use spells that require saves against him, or target him too often with a melee full attack, or... It's a pain in the butt. If someone wants to play a mechanically weak character concept, it's *always* better to take time *before* the game to fix the mechanics *in the clear*, where everyone can see, so it's fair, rather than fixing the mechanics by secretly fudging behind the DM screen. Because it's going to be one or the other, because the third option is the PC dying five times in a session and getting upset and angry. And if a player won't *let* me fix the mechanics of his concept because he feels that much ownership of it and he doesn't want to "break" the "rules" and so on, he's being a problem player. He's not letting me manage the game as the DM, which is my job, and he's selfishly doing something he *knows* will cause problems for everyone else in the game (dealing with party member death or having to save a party member's butt all the time is *not fun*) and it's for a pretty dumb reason -- he's sabotaging the game to defend a poor mechanical design decision he doesn't understand, one made by WotC game designers who were specifically trying to *screw* his character concept rather than enabling it. And if you run into this behavior a few times -- and I have -- it does tend to make you testy and impatient.
ArcTan 03-22-07, 03:03 PM	The problem I'm noticing here is that folks keep bringing up MECHANICS as an argument for "Race X is worthless." That's a tautology. If a race is mechanically worthless, it's mechanically worthless. When you run it through the D&D mechanics, it will do worthless things and suck, no matter how you describe it, flavorwise. If the mechanics don't match the flavor, then we have a *problem*, because the mechanics are how we actually resolve tasks in D&D. You can fix this either by rewriting the flavor (difficult to do when you're dealing with mechanics as abstract, detached from the world and, frankly, illogical and stupid as Level Adjustment) or by fixing the mechanics. What the hell ever happened to playing something because you thought it would be cool? People might not play a Succubus because of the "leet powers" it gets, but because they want to play a Succubus! Is that such a hard concept to grasp? Unless they want to play a succubus *because* a succubus PC sucks for its ECL and will be facing CRs too high for it (which has nothing to do with the flavor of playing a succubus), you should change the LA rules if you do so. Mechanics-wise yes it might be weaker than a cleric or a wizard or whatever due to the level hit, but someone who wants to play it would be aware of that beforehand. So there is no problem. Of course there's a problem. Being weak in combat and at a very high risk of death *is* a problem, for a game that spends any amount of time in combat. It burdens the other players and hamstrings any opportunity you might have to do interesting things. It actually hurts the flavor and weakens verisimilitude -- it doesn't feel like playing a succubus, because your mental image of a succubus is probably of a powerful, frightening manipulator, not a weak little girl whose powers never work and who dies a lot. If someone wants to play a high LA creature because they think it would be a cool idea, then I say more power to them. Yes. As in give them more power than the hamstrung ECL'd version. Again, unless the "cool idea" is actually "I think it'd be a cool idea to play a weak character", a DM is *responsible* to change the LA mechanics for a high-LA character if a player wants to play one.
Argaud 03-22-07, 03:05 PM	Among all the pile of crap, misinformation, insults and abundant use of “clever” expressions like **** rape and suck-ass that was your post this particular idiotic statement has caught my attention. As for the Succubus. She's a pet for clerics at level 7. Level 9 for a Wizard. Again, core spells. She's not a lvl 12 PC. If other people can get her out of the box as a personal plaything, bodygaurd and minion at lower levels, then she's a PC at either level 6 or level 7. Heck, by level 12, the cleric & wizard could have 2 or even 3 Succubi minions with Class Levels, making the PC succubus completely useless as she's been duplicated and her duplicates have say..... stuff like non-associated Hit Dice in a class like Barbarian or Paladin or Blackguard so they're 6 HD Succubi, 8th lvl Barbarian/Paladins. Oh, wow. Since there is a spell that could summon a Succubus to work for certain classes the Succubus is somehow disadvantaged as a PC? The Succubus, that has a virtually infinite number of Charm Monsters and Suggestions spells. The Succubus, whose DCs are so high that level 9 wizards and level 7 clerics have basically 0 chances to save against her slas. Sorry? Level 9 wizards and level 7 clerics are pets for Succubus. Moreover, she is not limited to having just 2 or 3, she has enough magic to have hundreds of them. As many as the DM allows her.
NineInchNall 03-22-07, 03:06 PM	Well, then, I go and start typing, but ArcTan says everything better than I. *sigh*
Kresalak 03-22-07, 03:21 PM	The Succubus, whose DCs are so high that level 9 wizards and level 7 clerics have basically 0 chances to save against her slas. Sorry? Level 9 wizards and level 7 clerics are pets for Succubus. Moreover, she is not limited to having just 2 or 3, she has enough magic to have hundreds of them. As many as the DM allows her. I wasn't aware that "22" was that high of a number.
Leo 03-22-07, 03:29 PM	Okay, I was wrong about the class level thingy, sorry. But, do your sucubus cohorts come with class gold included? Anyway, there are other several questions: Basic races don't get that much abilities, monsters get lots of them, and they don't even use equipment. Now when you give them equipment and class levels things can get broken very quickly. You may not be able to do it, I may not be able to do it, but if the LA was lower, the CO would be flowing with broken builds. And I still can't see ECL 12 as being low. Need money? Charm the shopkeeper. Repeat with everyboy in town. Easy to kill? The freaking guril can teleport at will! Unless your monsters all have dimensional anchhor, ,m nobody gets this baby. Get her a ranged weapon, and she can easily kill the druid. It will take hours, maybe days, but he will fall sooner or later. He has to sleep. She doesn't.
Argaud 03-22-07, 03:30 PM	I wasn't aware that "22" was that high of a number. Are we talking about the MM's Succubus or about a Succubus PC? Because if it is NPCs we look at the stock wizards and clerics in the DMG: the level 9th wizard has a +7 will save (70% chance of failing) and the 7th level cleric has a +8 (65%). PCs can do much better, but the PC Succubus can too, so I am pretty sure the % are going to be about the same among PCs. And assuming the PCs will be doing the pet-recruiting, those NPCs are going to be facing DCs of 27+. Meaning they will fail 90% of the time.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-22-07, 03:48 PM	Heh, great, a DM who is at least honest. Zumarai, you coudl take notes from Pyke here. At least they're honest and say that they hate monster races in PC hands. I just don't like the precedent they give. The first time someone plays a troll in one of my games and he is a PC then the other PCs will balk at killing intelligent monsters. "Hey, wasn't Bob the troll a really swell guy? He showed me you can't judge people by their exteriors. Maybe rather than ambushing these illithids we should see if they just want to parlay?" I put those monsters their for killin darnit. Plus, I find it hard to explain why NPCs shouldn't try and kill them on sight. Ogres eat people, I am people, I will kill the ogre before he eats me.
Kresalak 03-22-07, 03:56 PM	Are we talking about the MM's Succubus or about a Succubus PC? I was assuming we were talking about the NPCs, since a PC Succubus is "level 12" and has to contend with Wizards summoning Glabrezu instead, and at will Charm Monster totally loses to at will Reverse Gravity. And did I mention that Charm Monster only makes you Friendly, and doesn't enslave people? You need Dominate for that, and a Succubus can never get that.
Grand Theft Otto 03-22-07, 04:17 PM	I just don't like the precedent they give. The first time someone plays a troll in one of my games and he is a PC then the other PCs will balk at killing intelligent monsters. I've always preferred this approach myself. Moral abiguity to me is more fun than cartoon charicatures of alignment. It makes being truly vile or heroic that much more spectacular. In my last campaign, humans comprised the majority of the villains. Most of the PC's were humans. Their shared race didnt necessarily stop them when the gloves came off.
Argaud 03-22-07, 04:18 PM	And did I mention that Charm Monster only makes you Friendly, and doesn't enslave people? You need Dominate for that, and a Succubus can never get that. Enough Suggestions work the same. If the victim thinks the destiny of the universe depends on him obeying the Succubus, that works. Since a Succubus can use that spell at will she can pretty quickly make anyone believe that the moon is made of chocolate and magma is great for swimming. A Glabrezu are CR13 but their will save is only +11. That sucks for them. Reverse Gravity once or thrice is not going to defeat the Succubus. Failing a save against Charm Monster (75% chance) or Suggestion (70% chance) is very bad for him in a fight with a PC Succubus. And once he think she is a friend the Glabrezu is pretty much doomed, an endless chain of Suggestions can convince him of whatever the Succubus wants him to believe. Look, a CR13 enemy, technically a far stronger demon than a Succubus, is an easy win for a Succubus PC. What does this tell us of the ECL of the Succubus? Edit to add something: it is me or Reverse Gravity kinda sucks for a level 7 spells?
NineInchNall 03-22-07, 04:23 PM	Okay, I was wrong about the class level thingy, sorry. No biggie. I had a hell of a time wrapping my head around some of the LA/ECL/HD stuff, since I grabbed the Epic Level Handbook at the same time as Savage Species. But, do your sucubus cohorts come with class gold included? Succubus cohorts? You mean the summoned succubi? No, they don't ... Anyway, there are other several questions: Basic races don't get that much abilities, monsters get lots of them, and they don't even use equipment. Now when you give them equipment and class levels things can get broken very quickly. You may not be able to do it, I may not be able to do it, but if the LA was lower, the CO would be flowing with broken builds. Basic races don't get much in the way of abilities, it is true, but you know what does give a boatload of special abilities? Class levels. And I still can't see ECL 12 as being low. Need money? Charm the shopkeeper. Repeat with everyboy in town. Charm person economics is available to nearly every arcane spellcaster from level one. Can they do it as often per day? No, but they can certainly do it every day. Easy to kill? The freaking guril can teleport at will! Unless your monsters all have dimensional anchhor, ,m nobody gets this baby. Get her a ranged weapon, and she can easily kill the druid. It will take hours, maybe days, but he will fall sooner or later. He has to sleep. She doesn't. She is potentially easy to kill at ECL 12. Since she only has 6 HD, effects dependent on HD will murder her with great haste. Her saves are subpar for her level, meaning she's easily taken out prior to being able to use that wonderful ability to teleport. The Druid in your example is now level 12? Said Druid can take her out with a sixth level save-or-die with a DC easily in the realm of 27. (Wisdom 32 = 17+6+6+3) *shrug*
Leress 03-22-07, 04:30 PM	Enough Suggestions work the same. If the victim thinks the destiny of the universe depends on him obeying the Succubus, that works. Since a Succubus can use that spell at will she can pretty quickly make anyone believe that the moon is made of chocolate and magma is great for swimming. Umm you can't convince one to swim in magma Suggestion Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One living creature Duration: 1 hour/level or until completed Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. The suggested course of activity can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do. You can instead specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. If the condition is not met before the spell duration expires, the activity is not performed. A very reasonable suggestion causes the save to be made with a penalty (such as -1 or -2). Material Component A snake’s tongue and either a bit of honeycomb or a drop of sweet oil.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-22-07, 04:39 PM	Enough Suggestions work the same. If the victim thinks the destiny of the universe depends on him obeying the Succubus, that works. Since a Succubus can use that spell at will she can pretty quickly make anyone believe that the moon is made of chocolate and magma is great for swimming. It should be noted that a 12th level bard (theoretically a equal character) can drop a DC 22 suggestion 12 times a day, which while not at will pretty much covers most encounters in a day. Of course the bard fascinated everyone within hearing first with a DC: Pray you roll a 20 check. And he gets 12 rounds of fascination to throw out those suggestions. And he can switch targets once he's done with one of them.... So yeah, Bards can drop suggestions like mad too. And are safer while doing so. And suggestion isn't as good as you think it is as stated above, but that doesn't matter. Actual class skills trump innate abilities once again....
Kresalak 03-22-07, 04:42 PM	Look, a CR13 enemy, technically a far stronger demon than a Succubus, is an easy win for a Succubus PC. What does this tell us of the ECL of the Succubus? That you think Charm Monster and Suggestion are much more powerful than they actually are? Oh, did you know that a Warlock can get Charm Monster at will at level 6?
Argaud 03-22-07, 05:10 PM	Charm person economics is available to nearly every arcane spellcaster from level one. Can they do it as often per day? No, but they can certainly do it every day. And it is a damn good spell, particularly for an unscrupulous caster. Although charm person does not last for long, and tends to generate some resentment from the conned victims. Once the wizard can cast Charm Monster and Teleport (for the quick exit) he is golden. So is the Succubus, only in a more extreme way due to the "at will" factor. She is potentially easy to kill at ECL 12. Same hit points as a wizard, better resistances and DR, better AC, better mobility than most wizards. Are wizards easy to kill? Some would say they are, but I don't think so. Clever wizards are pretty hard to nail. Since she only has 6 HD, effects dependent on HD will murder her with great haste. Her saves are subpar for her level, meaning she's easily taken out prior to being able to use that wonderful ability to teleport. The Druid in your example is now level 12? Said Druid can take her out with a sixth level save-or-die with a DC easily in the realm of 27. (Wisdom 32 = 17+6+6+3) I am curious about that Wis 32. That is normal at level 18-20, but at level 12? Anyway, yeah, the Succubus has some weaknesses (thank god). Saves and HD effects are bad news. So are undead, constructs and vermin. But the more I think about what she can do, particularly as part of a party of ECL12 adventurers, the more convinced I am she is actually too powerful. Over 75% of the enemies at CR12 are easy victims for her. And it doesn't get better later if the PC advances as a Fiend of X or as just as Outsider (she can until 12HD - and with a couple Blackguard/SomevariantPaladin saves will never be a problem again).
Fwib 03-22-07, 05:16 PM	Umm you can't convince one to swim in magmaDepending on your DM, you might well be able to get away with: "The magma is an illusion, it's really a nice cool pool of water." + "Gosh!, Isn't it hot in here? You feel like jumping into a nice cool pool of water."
Kresalak 03-22-07, 05:26 PM	Same hit points as a wizard, better resistances and DR, better AC, better mobility than most wizards. Are wizards easy to kill? Some would say they are, but I don't think so. Clever wizards are pretty hard to nail. More hp? A 12th level Wizard has an average of 1.5 hp less than a Succubus, assuming 10 Con. And every point of Con he gets benefits him double. And he can cast False Life for an average of 15.5 more hp.
Gwenfloor 03-22-07, 05:28 PM	That you think Charm Monster and Suggestion are much more powerful than they actually are? Oh, did you know that a Warlock can get Charm Monster at will at level 6? Yes. When it comes to character classes, said classes do not get a level adjustment, but apply it to a monster with racial Hit Dice, and boom!!! +2 or more LA!
Argaud 03-22-07, 05:39 PM	More hp? A 12th level Wizard has an average of 1.5 hp less than a Succubus, assuming 10 Con. And every point of Con he gets benefits him double. And he can cast False Life for an average of 15.5 more hp. I never said more, I said about the same. How are you calculating hp? This is what I do: Level 12 wizard. Con 12 (base 14, grey elf) and item +4. HP=67 + spells (false life, stoneskin, etc). Succubus. Con 16 (base 14, +2 racial) and item +4. HP=60 + DR10, immunities and resistance, etc. Yes. When it comes to character classes, said classes do not get a level adjustment, but apply it to a monster with racial Hit Dice, and boom!!! +2 or more LA! The DC of the warlock's charm isn't going to be over the top at level 6. The Succubus, with a crazy +16 Cha, pretty much breaks the whole DC vs. level system.
Kresalak 03-22-07, 05:42 PM	I never said more, I said about the same. How are you calculating hp? This is what I do: Level 12 wizard. Con 12 (base 14, grey elf) and item +4. HP=67 + spells (false life, stoneskin, etc). Succubus. Con 16 (base 1, +2 racial) and item +4. HP=60 + DR10, immunities and resistance, etc. A Succubus has an average of 33 hp with 10 Con. A Wizard 12 has an average of 31.5 hp with 10 Con. If you give them both an Amulet of Health +4, the Succubus gets +12 hp and the Wizard gets +24.
Gwenfloor 03-22-07, 06:00 PM	I never said more, I said about the same. How are you calculating hp? This is what I do: Level 12 wizard. Con 12 (base 14, grey elf) and item +4. HP=67 + spells (false life, stoneskin, etc). Succubus. Con 16 (base 14, +2 racial) and item +4. HP=60 + DR10, immunities and resistance, etc. The DC of the warlock's charm isn't going to be over the top at level 6. The Succubus, with a crazy +16 Cha, pretty much breaks the whole DC vs. level system. Good point.
NineInchNall 03-22-07, 06:02 PM	And it is a damn good spell, particularly for an unscrupulous caster. Although charm person does not last for long, and tends to generate some resentment from the conned victims. Once the wizard can cast Charm Monster and Teleport (for the quick exit) he is golden. So is the Succubus, only in a more extreme way due to the "at will" factor. But charm person/monster economics is nothing compared to dominate person econonomics. The Wizard gets the latter; the succubus, not so much. Same hit points as a wizard, better resistances and DR, better AC, better mobility than most wizards. Are wizards easy to kill? Some would say they are, but I don't think so. Clever wizards are pretty hard to nail. But clever, 12th level Wizards have six levels of spells with which to ward themselves. The succubus, while having quite a few useful abilities (SR, natural armor, etc.) simply does not have the breadth of protections available to a spellcaster. The Wizard is tough to kill without having to deal with those glass jaw weaknesses, and he still has more potent offensive options. I am curious about that Wis 32. That is normal at level 18-20, but at level 12? I know! I was totally freaked out when I found owl's insight in the Spell Compendium. It gives an insight bonus to Wisdom equal to caster level/2 for an hour. I mean, damn! Keep one of those in reserve for when you are going to do some SoD spells and BAM! Anyway, yeah, the Succubus has some weaknesses (thank god). Saves and HD effects are bad news. So are undead, constructs and vermin. But the more I think about what she can do, particularly as part of a party of ECL12 adventurers, the more convinced I am she is actually too powerful. Over 75% of the enemies at CR12 are easy victims for her. And it doesn't get better later if the PC advances as a Fiend of X or as just as Outsider (she can until 12HD - and with a couple Blackguard/SomevariantPaladin saves will never be a problem again). Over 75% of the enemies are CR 12 are easy victims for just about any intelligently played caster, though. Just without the frailty that the succubus must deal with. A Druid in Eberron, for example, can be tossing off those DC 27 charm monsters. And let's not even get into the broken craziness that is Fiend of Possession. :yuck:
1CentSage 03-22-07, 06:14 PM	I think the succubus is a good example of the problems with LA. If you just take the succubus out of the MM as your char sheet, the LA is too high in combat situations. However given the infinite creative opportunities arising from its SLAs, etc for players the LA may be justified depending on the campaign style. The problem is not the existance of LA but the absence of any suitable objective measure for it, because any such measure would have to be based on notions of balance,power,etc.. Just going by the threads on this boards there will never be such a thing as a generally accepted measure for balance or power. Maybe I missed something in the succubus discussion, but a PC succubus would use Point Buy (rolling) for his ability scores and apply the corresponding adjustments (+2/+2/+2/+6/+4/+16) meaning that your lvl 12 PC succubus would have probably a charisma of 40+ with items. That means save DCs of 29+. (N)PCs with good saves have a base save of +8 at lvl12. Now given all the additional optimization options this succubus can be a real monster ;) . It will have some huge weaknesses too of course ...
DaidojiTaidoru 03-22-07, 06:19 PM	Maybe I missed something in the succubus discussion, but a PC succubus would use Point Buy (rolling) for his ability scores and apply the corresponding adjustments (+2/+2/+2/+6/+4/+16) meaning that your lvl 12 PC succubus would have probably a charisma of 40+ with items. That means save DCs of 29+. (N)PCs with good saves have a base save of +8 at lvl12. Now given all the additional optimization options this succubus can be a real monster ;) . It will have some huge weaknesses too of course ... I still think it pales in comparison to a 12th level Bard, who has all that and more HP and spells. Sure the Bard can't use Suggestion at will, but 144 times a day usually is enough.
ArcTan 03-22-07, 06:38 PM	The Succubus, whose DCs are so high that level 9 wizards and level 7 clerics have basically 0 chances to save against her slas. Er, what? Level 7 Clerics tend to have Will save modifiers around +8. That's actually a decent chance to save against a DC 22 -- 16 or higher, which is a 25% chance.
ArcTan 03-22-07, 06:41 PM	Depending on your DM, you might well be able to get away with: "The magma is an illusion, it's really a nice cool pool of water." + "Gosh!, Isn't it hot in here? You feel like jumping into a nice cool pool of water." Suggestion is for courses of action, not factual beliefs about the world. It'd have to be a Bluff boosted with glibness, or else actually casting an illusion to make the magma look like water.
ArcTan 03-22-07, 06:43 PM	Enough Suggestions work the same. If the victim thinks the destiny of the universe depends on him obeying the Succubus, that works. Since a Succubus can use that spell at will she can pretty quickly make anyone believe that the moon is made of chocolate and magma is great for swimming. Again, suggestion doesn't tell you something is true, just that you should do something.
1CentSage 03-22-07, 06:53 PM	I still think it pales in comparison to a 12th level Bard, who has all that and more HP and spells. Sure the Bard can't use Suggestion at will, but 144 times a day usually is enough. As with all "classes" it is to some degree a matter of preferences. My point is that in cases like this, monstrous classes often create opportunities/loopholes that were not taken into account when designing the game and therefore "avoided" by "nerfing" many monsters as PCs. If this is reasonable or not depends more on how the monster is used in actual game play than on the monster itself. In the case of the succubus you can get a lot out of the huge Cha bonus especially when you progress further with class levels. For the comparison with the bard. The bard will have more hp, but the succubus will typically have a higher Con and DR/10 against more or less a every monster PCs typically face, so effectively the succubus will have actually more hp. It will also have a better AC and a comparable attack bonus . It has generally higher ability scores and its huge Cha bonus makes more than up for missing skillpoints for social skills. Its main weaknesses are lower saves and lack of versatility (e.g.spells). This however might change at higher levels (with PrCs like Ur Priest for spells or blackguard for very good saves). If all the other extras (teleport,fly,Spot boni,...) make up for these shortcomings or not again depends on personal preference and type of campaign. I for myself as an (N)PC would however be more afraid of a succubus down the street than a lvl 12 bard next door ... :)
Towel_Ninja 03-22-07, 07:10 PM	I just ignore the LA people may not like it but my group loves not having them, i find it funner to play without since all its for is to 'balance' the game. Ive seen a human fighter take down a Tauren fighter both level ten. without the LA for the tauren. i find it balanced without (btw the fighter is just one example im sure the LA can break some classes/characters)
Argaud 03-22-07, 07:19 PM	Suggestion is for courses of action, not factual beliefs about the world. It'd have to be a Bluff boosted with glibness, or else actually casting an illusion to make the magma look like water. Suggestion 1: "Here, friend, drink this potion of complete fire immunity" (actually orange juice) Suggestion 2: "Now dive into that magma pool to find the ring of Ultimate Power that is in the bottom" :)
Leo 03-22-07, 07:19 PM	How the in the 9 hells did that happen? And so, if a player wants to play a succubus in your campaign, he can do it whitout ANY penalty??? Wowo, I would like to have that much trust in my group.
Towel_Ninja 03-22-07, 07:24 PM	How the in the 9 hells did that happen? And so, if a player wants to play a succubus in your campaign, he can do it whitout ANY penalty??? Wowo, I would like to have that much trust in my group. was this to me? if so, yes my group trusts one another greatly, and one of my dm's wants us to throw every challange at him possible(character wise) and we dont usaully play races like that due to lack of interest. and the human just happend to be better (i didnt get it either O.o)
Leo 03-22-07, 07:29 PM	Well, that makes sense. After all, a well played and built character will always be stronger than a non well built and played one.
Towel_Ninja 03-22-07, 07:34 PM	but they are both excellent players xD i think the human one just happen to build his character for killing large creatures without being touched and the Taran was built to take advantage of AoO. *shrug* that was awhile ago though xD
MingT 03-22-07, 08:02 PM	Suggestion 1: "Here, friend, drink this potion of complete fire immunity" (actually orange juice) Suggestion 2: "Now dive into that magma pool to find the ring of Ultimate Power that is in the bottom" :) That lame example includes two completely false beliefs about factual information. Or was it your point to refute yourself?
Archangel62 03-22-07, 09:00 PM	The real problem that LA has is that it can be hard to judge properly. Abilities 'at will' can look very powerful but you have to compare their impact. I mean a warlock as abilities at will and it works fine as a class. My guess is probably that the earlier LA stuff is probably easier to bring down in cost than the later stuff, simply because the designers themselves stated that over time they have learned more and more about balance and game design by observing the game and seeing what works and what doesn't.
ArcTan 03-22-07, 11:17 PM	Suggestion 1: "Here, friend, drink this potion of complete fire immunity" (actually orange juice) Suggestion 2: "Now dive into that magma pool to find the ring of Ultimate Power that is in the bottom" :) Suggestion does *not* change factual beliefs about the world, it just suggests *courses of action*, even if you insinuate changes in factual belief into suggested courses of action. In this case, they would ignore the part about "potion of complete fire immunity" and simply think "Yes, I should drink this orange juice the crazy man calls a potion". Then they would ignore the part about the Ring of Ultimate Power and just think "Dive into the magma pool? Are you crazy?"
TheDarkLord 03-23-07, 12:33 AM	Been kinda busy with work lately and haven't tried to update the succubus. I was able to boost it somewhat on paper but I'm not near my home computer. Just so you know a Level 1 spell called Protection from Evil negates anything the succubus has pretty much. A ring of such would cost between 6-10,000 gp for continuous use depending on your interpretation of the rules. It would also negate that Vrock as well. You are also missing one important part of your "Succubus' are Awesome" theory. Many critters at level 12 and beyond are intelligent and have Treasure they use, Magic items, scrolls and whatnot. The Succubus is not overpowered in the least when you take this into account. It becomes an extremlely fragile glass canon with diminished capabilities.
Argaud 03-23-07, 01:12 AM	Just so you know a Level 1 spell called Protection from Evil negates anything the succubus has pretty much. A ring of such would cost between 6-10,000 gp for continuous use depending on your interpretation of the rules. It would also negate that Vrock as well. Such an item would also almost completely negate an entire school of magic. Which is probably why it doesn't exist. Yes, a custom item giving Protection from Evil all the time would be awesome for 6-10k gold, but so it would it be an item giving True Strike. As it is well-known the guidelines for creating custom magical items do not work for low or high level spells (or for many spells of any level, for that matter).
runestar 03-23-07, 01:26 AM	IIRC, suggestion is not blocked out by prot from alignment...:P
NineInchNall 03-23-07, 01:40 AM	Suggestion Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting] Protection from Evil ... Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). ... ... OMG, you're right!
TheDarkLord 03-23-07, 01:47 AM	Protection from Evil Abjuration [Good] Level: Clr 1, Good 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: No; see text This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject and has three major effects. First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures. Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment. Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature. Such an item would also almost completely negate an entire school of magic. Which is probably why it doesn't exist. What? It doesn't negate an entire school of magic. It negates a specific Alignment from using a school against you. At 12th level that's the least of your worries. SoD spells have already come into full effect. But I'm pretty sure I read one such Item in a WoTC book (BoED, or complete Divine perhaps). It might have had Uses per day or a Time limit or something, but either way, a 1st level spell negating a 12th level character is bad. I don't know of another 1st level spell (Outside of Grease and the FB) that can do this. Yes, a custom item giving Protection from Evil all the time would be awesome for 6-10k gold, but so it would it be an item giving True Strike. It might have been 60,000 not quite sure. But True strike has a semi-official Price of around 400,000 for a continuous +20 to hit. Protection from Evil doesn't even come close to being as effective as it is. IIRC, suggestion is not blocked out by prot from alignment...:P Suggestion is a Compulsion.
runestar 03-23-07, 01:49 AM	I stand corrected...:embarrass
NineInchNall 03-23-07, 02:08 AM	Ah, but suggestion arguably does not provide "ongoing control of the subject." Further, protection from evil's mental protection does extend to effects created by creatures of any alignment. Just look at the last sentence in paragraph three: "This second effect works regardless of alignment."
runestar 03-23-07, 02:21 AM	So an argument could be made for suggestion penetrating a magic circle? So who is right? Or have I gone shooting off my mouth again? I don't wanna go correcting myself over something I was correct to start with...:P
Argaud 03-23-07, 02:44 AM	So an argument could be made for suggestion penetrating a magic circle? So who is right? Or have I gone shooting off my mouth again? I don't wanna go correcting myself over something I was correct to start with...:P Well, it is not as clear as I thought. Virtually all the Enchantment school are (compulsion) effects and the rest seem to be (charm) effects. However it could be argued that only a few of them “grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person” and will be stopped by Protection from Evil. Hell, even Charm Person does not grant ongoing control, it just makes the victim think the caster is his best buddy and makes him very receptive to everything the caster says ("perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way" is not exactly "ongoing control"). It might be that Protection from Evil only protects from Domination effects. (In that case an item of permanent Protection from Evil shoudn't be very expensive - yet it won't help against the Succubus slas any more than a Cloak of Resistance +2)
Leo 03-23-07, 06:57 AM	First, I think you should stop thinking of the sucubus as a melee guy. She's not a melee guy. She was and should be used in a dirty way, acting behind the shaddows, and retreating when things go wrong. You have a ring of protection fom evil. The city guys haven't. The succubs can get half the town gold and an army of cohorts pretty quickly, plus equipment. Let's see how much you last when a 144000 angry commoners/experts/warriors/ mob upon you. And even if tht isn't a chance, the sucubus just grabs an heavy crossbow and snipes you all day long. Snipe, teleport, reload,, teleport back, snipe, repeat. Can the wizard teleport at will? A sucubbus doens't win by facing his oponents in open combat. She wins by manipulating the people around her to do her bidding. And so by tha logic, EVERYONE who uses any kind of mind control are evil. Beguiller:the new blackguard base class:P
Broken vacuum 03-23-07, 08:33 AM	I suspect that some of the hostility towards LA comes from people expecting monstrous PCs to be good at minimum ECL and that is not the case. As I see it, the LAs are mostly based on how the natural abilities of the creature in question synergise with the class features of a PC class and the other members of the party. Ordinarily you need a couple of levels to make proper use of the benefit the monster race provides. Constitution boosts are a good example in that the loss of hp you get from having lower HD will sooner or later be made up for by the additional hp you get every level. You also have to remember that play styles differ. LAs have to be appropriate for people who roll random encounters in the tables of the DMG. LAs are balanced in relation to encounters with monsters and NPCs, not other PCs. Things like DR that is at best a minor annoyance for PCs are extremely good against a lot of things taken straight from the MM. E.g. the Pixie's DR 10/cold iron is quite hard to deal with for the majority of encounter participants. At lower CRs a pretty number of creatures have to crit to even damage the Pixie. Big bruisers of course lack this problem, as they do enough damage to be real dangers to the Pixie's low number of hps, but on the other hand these creatures usually lack effective means of dealing with invisible flying opponents. This does not mean that playing an ECL 5 Pixie is an exceptionally good idea, as any sort of stray damage might kill you, but once you do have a couple of actual levels it is not nearly as bad.
Naderion 03-23-07, 09:50 AM	LA is not really that much of a problem in itself. The problem is that the values often seem not to be right. A standard-dwarf looks more powerful to me than a grey dwarf, but still the grey dwarf has a LA +1 and the standard dwarf does not. The Genasi of the FRCS have one moderately usefull spell like ability once per day and really nothing else, that's never worth a LA +1. On the other hand, the FRCS deep gnomes have a LA of +3 because they have a lot of really usefull abilities. But why do they need al those abilities? I think most players would lave to play a deep gnome just for the flavour, but would be more than happy to forgo most of the abilities, to get a lower LA. I think the system is usefull, you just have to reconsider how high the LA value should be. If such races would be played in one of my campaigns, grey dwarves and genasi would have a LA of +0, drow of +1 and deep gnomes a different set of abilities, that are worth to forgo one class level to make them LA +1. Another thing is, that the advantages of powerful races are really making a difference at low levels, but become about useless at higher levels, when the adjustment really has a very strong impact on leveling up. If you take a look at the abilities of elves and dwarves, or half orcs and gnomes, these races are by no means equal and this is not really considered a huge problem. For the LA, this means, that you can set the value not based on the usefullnes of the abilities to first level characters, but to characters on the long run. When two characters of first level would be as powerfull as 1st and 3rd level, and they are as powerfull as 10th and 11th at level ten, and both as powerfull as 20th level on level twenty, then don't make the LA +2, but make it +1. It's a bit of an advantage in the beginning, but other races have other advantages, too, so you just can see over it. Not the system is bad, it's the way it's used. ;)
Mr.Waesel 03-23-07, 09:52 AM	Such an item would also almost completely negate an entire school of magic. Which is probably why it doesn't exist. Yes, a custom item giving Protection from Evil all the time would be awesome for 6-10k gold, but so it would it be an item giving True Strike. As it is well-known the guidelines for creating custom magical items do not work for low or high level spells (or for many spells of any level, for that matter). But such an item already exists in the rules - the bow of true arrows. And it isn't broken. +20 on one attack at the cost of not attacking for a round? Woop woop.
Isomer 03-23-07, 11:08 AM	In some cases the LA's are not properly balanced, but LA's are a needed just the same. Without them you start punishing players who want to play the standard races. Humans/Haflings/Elves/Gnomes and the like aren't gonna be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with someone playing a random demon, giant, or powerful homebrew with equal hit dice. So modification is needed, but it should be case by case, not simply the broad spectrum nuking of the LA system.
NineInchNall 03-23-07, 12:21 PM	Well, it is not as clear as I thought. Virtually all the Enchantment school are (compulsion) effects and the rest seem to be (charm) effects. However it could be argued that only a few of them “grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person” and will be stopped by Protection from Evil. Hell, even Charm Person does not grant ongoing control, it just makes the victim think the caster is his best buddy and makes him very receptive to everything the caster says ("perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way" is not exactly "ongoing control"). It might be that Protection from Evil only protects from Domination effects. Well, all the Enchantment (charm) spells and effects are blocked. It's only the Compulsions that get the special qualifier. Silliness.
Kresalak 03-23-07, 12:33 PM	In some cases the LA's are not properly balanced, but LA's are a needed just the same. Without them you start punishing players who want to play the standard races. Humans/Haflings/Elves/Gnomes and the like aren't gonna be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with someone playing a random demon, giant, or powerful homebrew with equal hit dice. So modification is needed, but it should be case by case, not simply the broad spectrum nuking of the LA system. As long as the class features the PHB race gets are as good as the racial features some random demon gets, I don't see the problem.
Argaud 03-23-07, 01:01 PM	Well, all the Enchantment (charm) spells and effects are blocked. It's only the Compulsions that get the special qualifier. Silliness. Are you sure? "(including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)" Hmmm... the special qualifier, as you say, could be applied to both charm and compulsion effects, or just to compulsion effects. Another nice example of unclear wording at the WotC style. Has this point been errated or clarified anywhere?
NineInchNall 03-23-07, 01:59 PM	[English lesson] Well, according to English syntax it's quite clear. That would be, "including [X] and [Y]", with [Y] set equal to, "enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant ..." The important thing is the repetition of effects. The first is one type of effect, and the second is another type of effect with a restrictive qualifier. If the "ongoing control" clause were meant to apply to Charms, then it should have been written as such: "... including enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion) effects[1] that ..." In this structure, enchantment (charm) modifies effects[1], as does that grant. Compare this to the original structure: "... including enchantment (charm) effects[1] and enchantment (compulsion) effects[2] that grant ..." In this structure, enchantment (charm) modifies effects[1] and nothing else. Enchantment (compulsion) modifies effects[2], as does that grant. The restrictive qualifier is not distributed. A simple example of a sentence using this is, "I like apple juice and orange juice that has been strained." The sentence is actually a shortened combination of two independent clauses: "I like apple juice, and I like orange juice that has been strained." Schools need to have students diagram sentences again. [/English lesson]
Fwib 03-23-07, 02:23 PM	Umm you can't convince one to swim in magmaDepending on your DM, you might well be able to get away with: "The magma is an illusion, it's really a nice cool pool of water." + "Gosh!, Isn't it hot in here? You feel like jumping into a nice cool pool of water."Suggestion is for courses of action, not factual beliefs about the world. It'd have to be a Bluff boosted with glibness, or else actually casting an illusion to make the magma look like water..... and then various other posts by ArcTan, claiming that suggestion can't make people think things are different than they are...Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. However, a suggestion that a pool of acid is actually pure water and that a quick dip would be refreshing is another matter.Replace 'acid' with 'magma' and you have what I said originally. Not reading the rules is something that I am sometimes guilty of too...
Leo 03-23-07, 02:51 PM	Hell, why complicate so much? Just get the strongest poison you can get and give it to him. "Here, drink this heroism potion"
Leress 03-23-07, 03:10 PM	.... and then various other posts by ArcTan, claiming that suggestion can't make people think things are different than they are...Replace 'acid' with 'magma' and you have what I said originally. Not reading the rules is something that I am sometimes guilty of too... Okay fair enough, my mistake.
Argaud 03-23-07, 03:26 PM	Hell, why complicate so much? Just get the strongest poison you can get and give it to him. "Here, drink this heroism potion" Poison is stupidly expensive :censored: I think potions of heroism are cheaper. (Magma pools might be cheaper too) But yeah, Suggestion will make the target believe the most incredible things. It is a pretty deadly spell, but so are Hold Person, and clerics get it as a second level spell.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-23-07, 03:29 PM	Poison is stupidly expensive :censored: I think potions of heroism are cheaper. (Magma pools might be too) Also magma pools don't depend on the Barbarian rolling a 1 on his fort save. However there's still nothing here is any different fom what an equivalent level Bard could do. In fact it's weaker then a well specced Bard.
Kresalak 03-23-07, 03:30 PM	Before Argued rants about the +16 Charisma, remember that a Bard throws Suggestion with a DC based on his Perform check.
Argaud 03-23-07, 03:54 PM	Before Argued rants about the +16 Charisma, remember that a Bard throws Suggestion with a DC based on his Perform check. Incorrect. Fascination is based in the performance check, but Suggestion is not. Suggestion (Sp) A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated. Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + ˝ bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability. So how much Cha does the bard have. Level 12... say he started with 16, which is typical. +3 levels, +6 item (prizey for level 12!). Bard has Cha 25. DC is 23. Not bad. A bit better than the normal NPC Succubus, who only needs to waggle her finger to Suggest (while the bard needs to be seen and heard by the targets, who must be paying attention to him, before trying the Fascination). Lets not forget that the bard can't even try to fascinate during a fight ("Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect") unless he is alone or all the party members are sitting ducks and trying to look harmless. What was the DC of the PC Succubus save for Suggestion? Oh yeah... about 27. And how is it used? A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
Kresalak 03-23-07, 03:58 PM	The Suggestion of the Bard is free with Fascinate, and Fascinate has a DC of about 34 assuming the Bard has a MW lute and nothing else. Then for 12 rounds he can lob Suggestion for free and no one can do anything. But seriously, Suggestion is a 3rd level ability. It's appropriate for a 3rd level character. Just because you can use Charm Monster and Suggestion with a high DC does not mean you can contribute to a 12th level party.
Argaud 03-23-07, 04:05 PM	But seriously, Suggestion is a 3rd level ability. It's appropriate for a 3rd level character. Just because you can use Charm Monster and Suggestion with a high DC does not mean you can contribute to a 12th level party. I guess you mean 5th level, which is as early as a wizard could get it. But yes, a high DC in an 'at will' incapacitating effect means the Sucubbus is very much contributing the party. She is taking out enemies at the speed of 1/round (okay, 90% of the time, 20s will happen) which is more than even good casters of that level can do with their lower DCs and limited numbers of powerful spells. At the end it does not matter if the wizard can cast 4 Disintegrations every day if the Succubus defeats the target by using a Suggestion. Both actions do the job.
Kresalak 03-23-07, 04:39 PM	Suggestion will not end a fight immediately. It gets them to do one thing if they fail the save. One thing. It's not level appropriate for a 12th level character no matter how high the DC is. This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm) is level appropriate. And ironically enough, this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestionMass.htm) is as well.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-23-07, 04:51 PM	Yep. The sucubbuss' at will abilities are a little better at a single class feature of a existing PHB class. However that class also gets SPELL PROGRESSION, more hit points and similar BAB so it the sucubbuss can't actually measure up.
Leo 03-23-07, 11:07 PM	Poison is stupidly expensive :censored: I think potions of heroism are cheaper. (Magma pools might be cheaper too) But yeah, Suggestion will make the target believe the most incredible things. It is a pretty deadly spell, but so are Hold Person, and clerics get it as a second level spell. Well, next time you see Magma pools or acid pools for sell tell me, do you?:P And anyway, it still it isn't guaranteed to kill him
ArcTan 03-24-07, 01:21 AM	.... and then various other posts by ArcTan, claiming that suggestion can't make people think things are different than they are...Replace 'acid' with 'magma' and you have what I said originally. Not reading the rules is something that I am sometimes guilty of too... You know that acid is usually clear and looks just like water, right? ("Acid" is actually an acidic compound dissolved in water. The cartoon depiction of acid as green bubbling slimy stuff is wrong; most acids in their pure form are colorless, as anyone who's taken chem lab knows.) It doesn't ever actually say he *knows* it's acid. I interpret this as meaning that you can kill someone with suggestion if you know something is dangerous and he doesn't. He won't go through a door that says "HUNGRY MANTICORE IN HERE", but if you cover up that sign before he sees it, then "Why not go through that ordinary door over there?" is easy. Your magma example still doesn't work, because any idiot can see that the magma isn't water and that the suggestion *is*, in fact, dangerous.
Argaud 03-24-07, 09:08 AM	You know that acid is usually clear and looks just like water, right? ("Acid" is actually an acidic compound dissolved in water. The cartoon depiction of acid as green bubbling slimy stuff is wrong; most acids in their pure form are colorless, as anyone who's taken chem lab knows.) It doesn't ever actually say he *knows* it's acid. I interpret this as meaning that you can kill someone with suggestion if you know something is dangerous and he doesn't. He won't go through a door that says "HUNGRY MANTICORE IN HERE", but if you cover up that sign before he sees it, then "Why not go through that ordinary door over there?" is easy. Your magma example still doesn't work, because any idiot can see that the magma isn't water and that the suggestion *is*, in fact, dangerous. You are in D&D, not a chemical lab. Of course the acid is green and bubbly.
Naderion 03-24-07, 09:18 AM	Suggestion will not end a fight immediately. It gets them to do one thing if they fail the save. One thing. It's not level appropriate for a 12th level character no matter how high the DC is. Suggestion is not a combat spell. Not many people lnow it, but D&D can be played different to just killing everything in sight. "One thing" can have a much higer impact than any 9th level spell.
Argaud 03-24-07, 09:29 AM	Suggestion is not a combat spell. Not many people lnow it, but D&D can be played different to just killing everything in sight. "One thing" can have a much higer impact than any 9th level spell. It can be used in combat too, and quite effectively. How would a failed save against a suggestion like "I am invincible, surrender and I will spare your life" not end a combat?
Neutronium_Dragon 03-24-07, 10:26 AM	Suggestion isn't total mind control, though. If the suggestion doesn't sound reasonable, it won't work. If the creature might plausibly believe that she is invincible, fine - but that's not a given. Likewise, if it doesn't care about preserving its own life, the fact that such an offer is made won't do any good. (Some creatures would prefer death to surrender, for one reason or another.)
ArcTan 03-24-07, 01:22 PM	You are in D&D, not a chemical lab. Of course the acid is green and bubbly. Not if defining it as such makes the suggestion spell a form of total mind control.
Sphyre 03-24-07, 01:51 PM	As said, many LA+1 don't seem to be justified. And by opposition, some LA+0 races call for a LA+1 or +2 (like the warforged). You mean Dwarfs, right? And just mistyped when you wrote "warforged"? Warforged are by no means LA +2! I'd reckon they'd be hard-pressed to be LA +1 Yeah. I think he meant dwarf... One also has to consider the setting that warforged were introduced in.. Eberron, where being a warforged has advantages, it also has lower stats and can never have a dragonmark - but almost every other race has the ability to have one.
WayneTheGame 03-24-07, 01:55 PM	to join in the "suggestion is not a combat spell!" argument, the only time I've ever seen that worthless spell used is with the comman of "Your friends plan to betray you; kill them before they can act!" or some such nonsense that forces the person who fails the save to fight his companions.
ArcTan 03-25-07, 03:06 AM	Yeah. I think he meant dwarf... One also has to consider the setting that warforged were introduced in.. Eberron, where being a warforged has advantages, it also has lower stats and can never have a dragonmark - but almost every other race has the ability to have one. Er, what do you mean? Warforged have the same stats in Eberron as they do in the generic (Greyhawk) setting. Unless you're talking about using a higher point-buy for an FR campaign or something, but that would also affect everyone. The dragonmarks are sort of a big deal, but that ties into the general "warforged are ostracized and distrusted because they're a strange twisting of nature" flavor, which is flavor that's pretty portable and pretty integral to the racial flavor in general. Outside of pure flavor, the dragonmark feats are pretty crappy feats, even if you make available dragonmark items.
Archangel62 03-25-07, 03:27 AM	Er, what do you mean? Warforged have the same stats in Eberron as they do in the generic (Greyhawk) setting. Unless you're talking about using a higher point-buy for an FR campaign or something, but that would also affect everyone. The dragonmarks are sort of a big deal, but that ties into the general "warforged are ostracized and distrusted because they're a strange twisting of nature" flavor, which is flavor that's pretty portable and pretty integral to the racial flavor in general. Outside of pure flavor, the dragonmark feats are pretty crappy feats, even if you make available dragonmark items. It also depends on how the DM runs it, Eberron is a place where those that have dragonmarks can utilize the ability to buy and sell the average man a dozen times over. Dragonmarks are symbols of power, much like the surname of someone rich and politically connected. The problem is that those feats are essentially closer to fluff feats than crunch.
Sphyre 03-25-07, 04:38 AM	Er, what do you mean? Warforged have the same stats in Eberron as they do in the generic (Greyhawk) setting. Unless you're talking about using a higher point-buy for an FR campaign or something, but that would also affect everyone. I meant that Warforged have their own place in Eberron, just like any other race in eberron. I feel that once you break the place for them, and choose them purely for their benefits in a setting that doesn't have warforged in mind, they might be veiwed as a bit stronger.
Fwib 03-25-07, 01:02 PM	to join in the "suggestion is not a combat spell!" argument, the only time I've ever seen that worthless spell used is with the comman of "Your friends plan to betray you; kill them before they can act!" or some such nonsense that forces the person who fails the save to fight his companions.Three things: 1) That falls under the (disputed) idea that suggestion can/can't make people believe things. (That their party-members are out to betray them) (As beforeseen, some people have a problem with that.) 2) Unless the character in question is an incredible egotist, or their companions are very weak, then attacking them would probably be considered an 'obviously harmful act' 3) Since many adventurers are Good (or at least non-evil) attacking them merely because you believe that they are out to get you probably wouldn't be considered 'reasonable'
Fwib 03-25-07, 01:09 PM	You know that acid is usually clear and looks just like water, right? ("Acid" is actually an acidic compound dissolved in water. The cartoon depiction of acid as green bubbling slimy stuff is wrong; most acids in their pure form are colorless, as anyone who's taken chem lab knows.) It doesn't ever actually say he *knows* it's acid. I interpret this as meaning that you can kill someone with suggestion if you know something is dangerous and he doesn't. He won't go through a door that says "HUNGRY MANTICORE IN HERE", but if you cover up that sign before he sees it, then "Why not go through that ordinary door over there?" is easy. Your magma example still doesn't work, because any idiot can see that the magma isn't water and that the suggestion *is*, in fact, dangerous.Any idiot cannot see that the magma is not an illusion.
Leo 03-25-07, 03:12 PM	In real life magma will kill you before you even manage to touch it to obscenely high temperatures unless you have some really good heat protection. In D&D you can swim in lava for several rounds whitout any kind of fire heat protection besides having tons of HP. Plus, illusion spells in D&D can include thermal stats so it is possible to make illusionary magma that you feel very hot when you approach it.
ArcTan 03-25-07, 09:32 PM	I meant that Warforged have their own place in Eberron, just like any other race in eberron. I feel that once you break the place for them, and choose them purely for their benefits in a setting that doesn't have warforged in mind, they might be veiwed as a bit stronger. Yeah, but the balance between races in terms of power is about the same. I mean, the place warforged hold in Eberron is as some of the best warriors in the world. You could make a world where warforged are the undisputed ruling class of the country, or a world where all warforged are oppressed slaves and a free warforged is killed on sight. The warforged desc could take it either way.
ArcTan 03-25-07, 09:33 PM	Any idiot cannot see that the magma is not an illusion. The rules say the suggestion must be "reasonable", not "theoretically possible according to the laws of physics and magic". You have to somehow make it sound likely that the magma is an illusion. (Magma that happens to be in an artificial pool in the laboratory of Humphrey the Illusionist? Maybe. Magma in an active shield volcano that's all around you, bubbling and flowing? Doubtful.)
Archangel62 03-26-07, 02:18 AM	Yeah, but the balance between races in terms of power is about the same. I mean, the place warforged hold in Eberron is as some of the best warriors in the world. You could make a world where warforged are the undisputed ruling class of the country, or a world where all warforged are oppressed slaves and a free warforged is killed on sight. The warforged desc could take it either way. Or they could be prototype weapons of war or the guardians of a nation of mages who seek controllable and workable guardians. Warforged can be healed with arcane spells and never need to eat, sleep, or breath. In short they make excellent guards for long stretches.
Mr.Waesel 03-26-07, 08:43 AM	Or they could be prototype weapons of war or the guardians of a nation of mages who seek controllable and workable guardians. Warforged can be healed with arcane spells and never need to eat, sleep, or breath. In short they make excellent guards for long stretches. I don't think you understood his point, which is that race power is not a function of race flavor.
Fwib 03-26-07, 02:00 PM	The rules say the suggestion must be "reasonable", not "theoretically possible according to the laws of physics and magic". You have to somehow make it sound likely that the magma is an illusion. (Magma that happens to be in an artificial pool in the laboratory of Humphrey the Illusionist? Maybe. Magma in an active shield volcano that's all around you, bubbling and flowing? Doubtful.)True, it will depend on DM-call about reasonableness, which I did say in the first place. On the other hand, the bluff skill is right there for making things sound really reasonable for a round or two - which is all you need :) (of course, whether you can combine a bluff check with a suggestion is also up to the DM)
Judging Eagle 03-26-07, 02:08 PM	In the case of the Succubus being considered a lvl 12 PC, and not a lvl 8 one, is that people really should read the Suggestion spell. It's not charm, it's not charm monster (although she does have that, and that is a more useful spell) and it's sure as hell not dominate (which, it should be noted she can never get). All that will happen in a fight is that the Sucubus will Suggest to one target to make out with her. Then, she will spend the next few rounds draining away thier levels. So, she's good at disabling one target, but she can't do anything else in the fight. Meaning she's open for **** like sneak attacks or being ignored since she can't do **** in the fight other than latch onto one guy and slowly kill them. Aka, a "fail or win" ability. Depending if your DM uses single high CR monsters or lots of slightly lower CR monsters.
ArcTan 03-26-07, 02:37 PM	It can be used in combat too, and quite effectively. How would a failed save against a suggestion like "I am invincible, surrender and I will spare your life" not end a combat? It only works if you've done things that suggest you might be invincible. In which case there's a good chance that you'd win the combat anyway, unless you're really good at theatrics.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-26-07, 03:49 PM	In the case of the Succubus being considered a lvl 12 PC, and not a lvl 8 one, is that people really should read the Suggestion spell. *Cough*Bard*cough*SINGLECLASSFEATURE*cou gh*level6*cough* Man, I should see someone about this cough.
Judging Eagle 03-26-07, 05:05 PM	*Cough*Bard*cough*SINGLECLASSFEATURE*cou gh*level6*cough* Man, I should see someone about this cough. I'm reffering to the fact that at-will suggestion and high charsima is why some people say that the Succubus deserves ig +6 LA. Instead of being a CR 8 encounter if it has PC gear. Then again, with that cough, you probably didn't read my other post back on page 4-5, so you don't know what I'm talking about. That is, you're preaching to the pastor. By the time you are in CR 12 encounters the Suggestion + Eneration trick is weak sauce. Taking one enemy out over 10-20 rounds means your other 3 party members are bloody paste and you're next. It's a viable level 8 tactic, but it's not a viable level 12 tactic. What's viable at level 12 is sending out 8 Summoned/Allied/Bound Succubi troopers with +2 weapons, +3 armour/sheild, +2 stat gear and +3 save gear [whihc, frankly are "free" at level 11 if you even bother to observe any of the possible rules of the game, such as you know, actually reading the spells a cleric or wizard could access] to either gang up on one guy to Suggestion + Drain juggle that target. If they can't Suggestion Juggle (ie. use the suggestion "you want to attack me most of all" while flying just out of reach or using it's speed to keep your wizard or cleric character's butt safe) and they can't Chain Suggestion Drain (i.e. Suggestion that the Succubus wants to kiss them; with 8 attempted kisses a round the target's gonna start failing, after that a -1 to -8 to all saves is terribely funny to watch); then they can simply take to the air and use their freely wished for +1 Evil Outsider Bane Comp Longbows with +1 Chaotic/Lawful Outsider Bane arrows to deal some decent damage (+1 weaon, +4 to hit/damage, +4d6 bonus damage) [or whatever arrows work best]. Really, the 8th lvl PC Succubus* is a so-so party member. *: 8 Levels of the Succubus 'Class', a 3/4 BaB class with a D8 HD, all good saves, plus al their other stuff thrown in. Racial Stat mods of: Str +4, Dex +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha + 12) To achieve legitimate racial stat mods, take the elite array, subrtact the highest number from it from the highest stat the creature has, then use the next higheset on the next hies stat, repeat till all stats are done. Round odd numbers down if the Base was Odd, Up if the Base was even. Elite array is: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 Succubus Stat line is: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26 Str 13 - 8 = +4 Dex 13 - 10 = +2 Con 13 - 12 = +0 Int 16 - 14 = +2 Wis 14 - 13 = +2 Cha 26 -15 = +12 By level 12, she's outshone since the Wizard and cleric can call up cheap rip-offs of herself as elite bodygaurd and equip them with low-end magical weapons/armour and low-end magical gear that their Efreeti slaves or Noble Djinni drinking buddies have wished/crafted for them. Then again, some people don't like to play in a world that can't exist. Yeah, I'm looking at every player and DM and campaign writer that seems to conveniently forget the fact that a Wizard can have a basement sweatshop full of Efreeti churning out either 25,000 GP gems or 15,000 gp magical items three times a day each. B/c that **** with the Efreeti Sweatshop is just as Core as: -The fighter who can smash granite blocks with his bare hands (Power attack 10, which bypasses the hardness on stone, stone breaks) -The Druid who's Mighty-Joe Young 24/7 (Ape or Legendary Ape form) -The Rogue who kills almost anything with his rapid-chucking of acid vials or, he just uses a wand of Produce Flame or Flame/Ice Blade Blade to get tons of Ranged Touch or Touch Sneak Attacks. -The Ranger who hunts demons with his +1 Holy Evil Outsider Bane Comp Long bow and uses a Quiver of free, Wished for +1 Chaos Outsider Bane Steel/Iron* arrows, to have I dunno, +5 to hit/damage and deal +6d6 bonus damage? *: Tnagent here: Cold Iron being Iron from deep within the cold mountain depths is a slap in the face. It makes no sense except for the fact that designers wanted to make the game confusing, that or they never read a single fairy tale where cold steel kills faerie creatures and simply thought that Cold Steel was something unique. Cold Iron was considered amazing vs Fey since it was a product of Industry, while Fey are a product of Nature. Also, it's cold b/c it conducts heat well, so when you touch it, it's cold since it's conducting heat away from your hands. Not b/c it's forged deep underground or 'lightly' forged (which, is utter BS sicne you can't 'lightly forge' anything made of iron, that stuff needs temperatures that are high enough to soften normal steel, so let's dispell this logical fallacy). So, cheap, easy to make iron weapons were thus, amazing at killing chaotic Fey and Faerie creatures. "Artifice kills nature". Easy enough to grap I hope. Making Cold Iron expensive is the most ludicrous thing ever. Especially when most adventurers use Steel which is superior and is still, of course, made of you know, Iron The LA-adjusted 'level 12' PC cannot compete in such an environment at all. She doesn't have the options, damage output, special abilities or anything else that distinguishes her as a character that can stand along side a Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger or Rogue. The classes that are, in Core, able to perform level-appropriate tasks. If she had 8 "Succubus levels" and 4 "True Fiend" or 4 "Conduit of the Planes" levels, then maybe she'd be good for something. Not much though, monsters even with LA abolished and with only a +1 CR increase still are sort of "teh suck". As it stands, the DM who has such a PC will be hardpressed to have such a PC and not be forced to take punches (have his monsters intentionally fail saves that they'd almost never fail) and pull punches (aka, not deal the 50+ damage that is easily dealt per hit from some monsters and insta-kill the LA-adjusted "lvl 12" Succubus). So much for a short post.
Leo 03-26-07, 05:18 PM	Why do people insist in using the succubus as a tank? It's a not a tank! It's a freaking spy! You don't throw the party's rogue alone against golems! You don't put an heavy armor and greataxe in the wizard and send him against the orcs! You send the raging barbarian to negotiate with the town's mayor! And you don't put the succubus as a warrior! It evens says in the MM; they are not suposed to fight. They are suposed to act behind the scenes, always sugestioning and teleporting, disguising themselves, untill the enemy drops their guard and then level drain them to hell.
Kresalak 03-26-07, 05:27 PM	"Spy" is not a viable 12th level role. "Assassin" (Rogue) is, but the Succubus can't do that.
Leo 03-27-07, 08:48 AM	"Spy" is not a viable 12th level role. "Assassin" (Rogue) is, but the Succubus can't do that. Exactly! The sucubus was created to be a demonic spy, not a front melee warrior or a battle control. It's a monster suposed to be used in high politics campaigns, not a random encounter for the party to slaughter. At best, you could discover the succubus controling a group of thieves/thugs/casters/whatever, but the succubus will only actually fight if it has no other choice(wich is pretty hard when you have teleport at will). So, if you want to play it, you can't really complain that it is bad at melee and battle control, since it wasn't designed to do that, just like you can't complain that a materwork thieve's tools makes a very bad weapon/battle utility. Both were created to do some limited tasks, not go out there and be alwas usefull.
Kresalak 03-27-07, 09:14 AM	And that is why a Succubus is not a viable 12th level character-because they can't do 12th level things.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-27-07, 09:49 AM	Spell-Like Abilities: At will—charm monster (DC 22), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 20), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), polymorph (humanoid form only, no limit on duration), suggestion (DC 21), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. I know I would like to have a level 12 character that could do those at will. Plus have DR, plus SR, plus resistances, etc...
Argaud 03-27-07, 09:49 AM	And that is why a Succubus is not a viable 12th level character-because they can't do 12th level things. They can't? Lets see... Do they have the skill of a level 12 character? Yes. Better than those of a 6/level class at least. Plus a good selection of skills. Plus huge racial skill bonus to Spot and Listen. Do they have the spells to deal with CR12 monsters? Yes. Actually the DCs are better than those of other level 12 characters. Most CR12 monsters will be charmed or suggested automatically. Do they have the AC of a level 12 character? Actually they have it higher due to the +9 natural armor. Do they have the hit points? No. Although they have very strong magical and physical defenses. (SR 18, DR10/monstersdon'thaveit, elemental resistances, etc). Do they have the fighting abilities of a level 12 character? Those of a wizard. So no, melee/ranged fighting is bad. Do they have the mobility of a level 12 character? Dude, they have better mobility than most level 20 characters. (Pyke, those DCs are for a regular, NPC Succubus. The PC's DCs will be like 5 points higher)
Rough_Trade 03-27-07, 10:08 AM	(Pyke, those DCs are for a regular, NPC Succubus. The PC's DCs will be like 5 points higher) Exactly, a 25-point buy Succubus is a kick ass ECL 12 character…IMO.
1CentSage 03-27-07, 10:45 AM	8 Levels of the Succubus 'Class', a 3/4 BaB class with a D8 HD, all good saves, plus al their other stuff thrown in. Racial Stat mods of: Str +4, Dex +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha + 12) To achieve legitimate racial stat mods, take the elite array, subrtact the highest number from it from the highest stat the creature has, then use the next higheset on the next hies stat, repeat till all stats are done. Round odd numbers down if the Base was Odd, Up if the Base was even. Elite array is: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 Succubus Stat line is: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26 Str 13 - 8 = +4 Dex 13 - 10 = +2 Con 13 - 12 = +0 Int 16 - 14 = +2 Wis 14 - 13 = +2 Cha 26 -15 = +12 Actually, The MM says on p.6/7 that unless noted otherwise in the creature's description all monsters use the standard array (only 10s and 11s), not the elite array. So the ability adjustments for the succubus are +2/+2/+2/+6/+4/+16 which corresponds to a total bonus of +32 instead of the +22 for the elite array. Although this has not much impact on the ongoing argument (which has no relevance for the original topic of the thread anyway) it helps the poor succubus a bit ... .
Kresalak 03-27-07, 03:02 PM	They can't? Lets see... Do they have the skill of a level 12 character? Yes. Better than those of a 6/level class at least. Plus a good selection of skills. Plus huge racial skill bonus to Spot and Listen They have a skill cap that just so happens to be 6 points lower than what it should be. How you think that lets them compete I'll never know. Do they have the spells to deal with CR12 monsters? Yes. Actually the DCs are better than those of other level 12 characters. Most CR12 monsters will be charmed or suggested automatically. No. They have a 4th level spell. 4th level. They have Charm Monster and Suggestion. Those are not 12th level tactics. Those won't even do anything-Charm only makes them friendly towards you, and the monster can still kill your friends. And it doesn't even matter that it won't attack you, since you have no offensive ability at all. Do they have the AC of a level 12 character? Actually they have it higher due to the +9 natural armor. That's moderately impressive in light of the fact that they can't use heavy armor (or else they can't fly), but since Succubi have, again, no offensive ability, a high defense is worth nothing. Do they have the hit points? No. Although they have very strong magical and physical defenses. (SR 18, DR10/monstersdon'thaveit, elemental resistances, etc). SR 18 is useless. Seriously, that's Level+6. No one even notices that. DR 10 is nothing in light of the fact that a Succubus has 33 hp. A Cloud Giant does 32 damage per hit. And again, the total lack of offense makes any defenses moot. A block of adamantine is nearly indestructible, but that doesn't make it a viable 12th level character. Do they have the fighting abilities of a level 12 character? Those of a wizard. So no, melee/ranged fighting is bad. Except for the spells. She doesn't have those. Do they have the mobility of a level 12 character? Dude, they have better mobility than most level 20 characters. 12th level means Phantom Steeds which move at 240 feet and Air Walk across everything that gets in their way.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-27-07, 03:21 PM	12th level means Phantom Steeds which move at 240 feet and Air Walk across everything that gets in their way. And that is better than greater teleport at will? :confused:
Argaud 03-27-07, 03:30 PM	They have a skill cap that just so happens to be 6 points lower than what it should be. How you think that lets them compete I'll never know. Lets see... +10 to spot (wisdom +4), +10 to listen, +8 to all charisma skills... not only compete, she is better than most LA+0 characters. No. They have a 4th level spell. 4th level. They have Charm Monster and Suggestion. Those are not 12th level tactics. Those won't even do anything-Charm only makes them friendly towards you, and the monster can still kill your friends. And it doesn't even matter that it won't attack you, since you have no offensive ability at all. The have Charm Monster, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion (which works in combat just fine), Greater Teleport and Ethereal Jaunt. Suggestion DC is higher than the wizard level 6 spells, and it allows for a huge variety of effects. Anything that is not an "obviously harmful act" can be suggested, as long as it is "worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable" (and she has diplomacy and bluff as racial skills, and cha 30+). Up and including having enemies fleeing, surrendering, switching sides in a battle, etc, etc. That's moderately impressive in light of the fact that they can't use heavy armor (or else they can't fly), but since Succubi have, again, no offensive ability, a high defense is worth nothing. So what? Who needs heavy armor? Virtually no one uses heavy armor because mithril fullplate is much better. SR 18 is useless. Seriously, that's Level+6. No one even notices that. DR 10 is nothing in light of the fact that a Succubus has 33 hp. A Cloud Giant does 32 damage per hit. And again, the total lack of offense makes any defenses moot. A block of adamantine is nearly indestructible, but that doesn't make it a viable 12th level character. SR still stops 25% of the spells of an enemy spellcaster of the same ECL, and many more from partial casters and lesser minions. SR at CR+6 is useless for enemy monsters, but not for PCs. She has hit points near 60, as already explained, which you keep trying to ignore. So the giant needs 3 hits to drop her (which is too much considering how high is her AC and that she can go ethereal or teleport with a sla). At level 12 most characters will go down with 3 hits from a cloud giant, too. 12th level means Phantom Steeds which move at 240 feet and Air Walk across everything that gets in their way. Only arcane casters get Phantom Steeds. Air Walk is very slow (I am going to assume you mean Wind Walk, which only clerics get, and that takes 3 rounds to return to normal... 3 rounds you are helpless with just DR10/magic to protect you). Still way slower than Greater Teleport and Ethereal Jaunt at will.
Kresalak 03-27-07, 03:57 PM	And that is better than greater teleport at will? :confused: It's more maneuverable, since it doesn't take a standard action. That's what I was responding to.
Judging Eagle 03-27-07, 04:47 PM	Actually, The MM says on p.6/7 that unless noted otherwise in the creature's description all monsters use the standard array (only 10s and 11s), not the elite array. So the ability adjustments for the succubus are +2/+2/+2/+6/+4/+16 which corresponds to a total bonus of +32 instead of the +22 for the elite array. Although this has not much impact on the ongoing argument (which has no relevance for the original topic of the thread anyway) it helps the poor succubus a bit ... . Yeah, but we can both admit that the MM is wrong on that count. NPCs get to use the 10/11 stat line. B/c they're not Hard core enough to be an adventurer. Monsters that are hard-core enough to be PCs get the Elite Array at the very least. [edit: you posted this while I was typing my post, but I'll quote you:] Lets see... +10 to spot (wisdom +4), +10 to listen, +8 to all charisma skills... not only compete, she is better than most LA+0 characters. Argaurd: the succucus has a ****** skill setup and the Human Rogue in a Elite Array game blows her apart Human Rogue: 15 Int, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 12 Wis, 10 Cha, 8 Str; That's 8 + 2 + 1 = 11 Skills at Level + 3 ranks at every level. Hmm, 11 skills, let's pick some: Disable Device (Int), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), However, we have a pile of non-essential to dungeon-crawling skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex) Really, the list of 8 has all of the key Rogue skills; let's throw in Diplomacy for 9, Sense Motive for 10 and Bluff for 11. Disable Device (Int), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha) Sense Motive (Wis) Bluff (Wis) So, 11 skills with 15 Ranks. Which is obviously much less than your much vaunted: +10 to spot (wisdom +4), +10 to listen, +8 to all charisma skill Wait, it's not. Aka, you're wrong. +10 or +20 with gear is okay, but if the rogue has +20 or +30 with gear, guess who's most likely to notice stuff? Yeah, you guessed it. Him, not the ECL 12 succubus. Also, that's +15, before gear, ability mods or anything much else. A +10 item and +5 from ability mods is included right in. Also, you're forgetting that there are many skills that are Trained Only; so she can't UMD out of the monster manual and onto the tabletop. When I do her the favour of writing her up as being able to, she's suffering for it elsewhere. Now, let's include 'gear' that will affect said skills Reasonable gear for someone who's actually playing level 11+ the way it's supposed to by the rules, has batcaves and batcaves of 'crappy' magical items worth 15,000 gp or less. Since you can easily Chain-Bind Efreeti to grant you wishes of such "wooden nickels" of the extraplanar markets. +5 Inherent Bonuses are easy enough to engineer; as are +2 Stat items. Items with +4 to stats are harder as they can't be Wished for; likewise 'free' magical gear tops out at +2 weapons, +3 armours and 3rd lvl and lower magical wands with caster levels of 6th or lower. So, the above Rogue's stats and mods come out to be: 15 Int, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 12 Wis, 10 Cha, 8 Str S 8 + 5 + 2 (Inherent Bonuses (Wish) + Ioun Stone (Item)) = 15 D 13 + 5 + 4 (Wish + Dex Gloves + UMD'd Scroll of Divine Agility) = 32 C 12 + 5 + 2 + 1 (Wish + Item + Level) = 20 I 15 + 5 (Wish + Headband ) = 20 W 12 + 5 + 2 + 1 (Wish + Item + Level) = 20 Ch 10 + 5 + 4 + 1 (Wish + Cloak + Level) = 20 (+5 mod) Now, that's some pretty high stats; and the Succubus at lvl 12 can probably match or beat a lot of those: Str 13 + 5 + 2 = 20 Dex 13 + 5 + 4 = 22 Con 13 + 5 + 2 = 20 Int 16 + 6 + 2 = 24 Wis 14 + 5 + 2 = 21 Cha 26 + 5 + 4 = 35 (+12 Mod) Now, the Succubus has a +12 (+15 with headband of persuasion) Cha mod, compared to the Humans +5 (+8 with a headband of persusasion). The thing is, UMD is not a class skill for Succubi. So, she has, at best 4.5 Ranks, to the Human Rogues 15. So, yeah, I hope you can see where this is going... If not, pay close attention, I'm gonna show that the LA system is completely subservient to the 12th lvl Rogue PC, while it utterly bones a ECL 12 Succubus PC. Succubus has 4 (.5) + 15 modifier for UMD: +19 total, so she'll always activate low end stuff like a wand; somehting like a Scroll could be dicier. The Rogue has long ago stopped caring about wands since he's got: 15 + 8 or a +23 UMD mod. So he auto-activates any scroll created with a CL of 3 or less. If he grabs an item that gives him +10 to his UMD checks (whoo-boy, 10k gp, whoops, it's free) he can cast scrolls that have spells that his Wizard friend can't cast. That is, he can cast any spell that has a caster level of 14 off of a scroll. So, he can UMD scroll with regularity. Scrolls that he can get from Wishes. The Succubus is relegated to A cohort's Cohort level, since the best she can do is cast spells that have a 10th caster level, 2 levels below the Wizard, and 4 below the Rogue. Now, does everyone know what a character who casts 4 levels behind an other one, and 2 levels behind everyone else is called? Garbage. That's what it's called. Everyone knows that the Mystic theurge is a piece of weak sauce; and the True Necromacner pile of guano twenty feet tall, squeezed into a 10 foot tall PrC (no really, the True Necro is always 4 caster ans spell progression levels behind, the only way to mitigate that is to cheat or have a DM give you artifact items that let you cast as if you were a ful cleric or wizard). Looking at the Succubus you can obviously see the same; it's weak; it's got crappy HP, it dies like no one's business, it can't do damage, it can't do anything that's any good in a noticable manner that someone else can't do better. The Succubus PC with an 'ECL' of 12 cannot stay above water let alone compete as a level 12 PC. The Wizard has a a whole Sweatshop full of Efreeti and a Mining Plantation in the Elemental Plane of Earth to gather gems for himself and the Druid and Cleric so that they can make massive Awakened Tree juggernaus or Stone Golems, Undead legions or Awakened animal shock-troopers. The Fighter is able to besiege enemy fortresses with nothing else other than a good suit of armour, a sheild and an adamantine mace. The Barbarian is able to .... charge anything and kill it in one ravenous flurry of his Sunsword and Shortsword's strikes. The Monk.... the monk actually dies, the fighter does too since it's not really level appropriate at lvl 12, neither is the Barbarian. With PrCs they're better, but that's pathetic and it means that the class is useless unless you buy additional books. In any case, the Succubus wants to play with the big boys, and frankly, she trips on her own tail. The thing is, the 12th lvl rogue can perform tricks such as: Assasination 1. Not get Heard: Use an item with Silence cast on it to move silently or rely on make a move silently check of: 10 + 15 + 11 + 10 (take 10, ranks, dex mod, item) = 46 2. Hide: With a hide check of 10 + 15 + 11 + 10 (take 10, ranks, dex mod, item) = 46 3. Remain undetected: Using a wand of Magic Aura to hide his magical gear's and spell effects auras Okay, so he can go anywhere, but can he... Kill anything? Yup 4. Prepare the weapon[/i]: Wand of Produce Flame, cast it 6 times, you have 5 minutes before you have to cast any of them again. Yes, you're using a 5th lvl caster on a 1st lvl spell, simply for the extra time. Yes, you're also going to abuse Ranged Touch Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting with Thrown Weapons. 5. [b]Find your Target: Any number of ways: Scry + Teleport, abusing Commune Scrolls 6. Get to your target: Again, too many options, DDoor, Teleport, Invis Sphere or a ring of Invis + Hide checks + Silence Stone + Move Silently check to just walk in. 7. Kill your target: Now, an aside here. The Succubus can perform almost every step, since she's able to UMD the same items that the Rogue can due to her gear and a high Cha modifier. She can't however do the following. Perform 6 sneak ranged attacks: 1. Cast Divine power on yourself for 1 more attack/round; Cast Heroics to get the next Iteration of the Two Weapon Fighting feat tree. You have 6 attacks 2. Drop all 6 of your Produced Flames; they do 1d6 + 6d6 + 5 damage each (7d6+5 is 12-47 damage, average of 29.5 per strike). That's 6* 7d6+1 = 42d6 + 30 damage (72-282 damage per round, average 177 per round). Now, make your hide check of +46 + 40 (just cast a Greater Invis and Magic Aura, Mind Blank also helps) with a -20 penalty since you're sniping. A +56 hide check should be enough to not be noticed. Now; make 4 more attacks like that. So, about 177 damage 5 times is roughly 885 damage. Yeah, that's an average of enough damage to kill anything that doesn't have fire immunity or fire resistance 30. The succubus can't do that. At all. Plus, the ECL 12 Succubus PC is the 12th lvl Rogue's target for [b]Banishment[/i]; while she gets boned by his Slippery Mind, Mind Blank, Protection from Evil and any number of effects that completely shut down her very narrow special-ability focus. In the face of so much lose from the succubus, I really don't see why anyone defends that she's an ECL 12 PC. She sucks at that role and she can't do anything that's any good at that level of game play.
Judging Eagle 03-27-07, 05:13 PM	Still way slower than Greater Teleport and Ethereal Jaunt at will. Say, do you know of a show called the Teen Titans? Yeah, well, if you do or don't it's a non-issue; I've myself watched, ... 2/3 of an episode to get the gist of the whole series. Basically it's a bunch of kids with superpowers that do stuff. So, this Starfire character. She's some long lost child of some far off alien planet and she looks like a good looking humanoid, so Robin and her (yeh, Robin's part of this group, so that's interesting) hang out, b/c he's a kick-ass adventurer, and she's a beatufil alien with wierd super powers. So, any way, she has as all sorts of cool abilities, she can fly in the air or in space (some form of inertial motion, think superman, or any other flying superhero), she can breathe in space, she can cast Remove Homerotic feelings(Robin Only) at will, fire magical blasts out of her eyes and also cast Remove Depression, Calm Emotions and Alien Girl Empathy at will to cheer up th animal-boy & cyborg, relax her sometimes very violent boyfriend and help the other alien girl on the team get out of her mental shell. So, she's a very busy girl who has to use her powers a lot. Now, that's all cool, except for one thing. Her travel in space ability. It's useless. Why? B/c no one else can benefit from it. That's why. The ame goes for the Succubus. No one cares if you can teleport into a base at will. Unles you can kill the BBeG on your own, you might as well not have it. Seriously, stop repeating yourself on stuff that will not really affect the game at all. She could teleport wherever the hell she wants to,wheneve she wants to. At the end of the day she needs some really tough adventurers who didn't make a ****ty character choice to actually do the heavy lifting of removing traps, killing enemies and slaying the boss. Also, 60 hp at lvl 12 blows; the 12th lvl rogue has 42 + 60 HP; or 102 HP. The 12th lvl Wizard has 30 + 84 hp or 114 hp; I'm not even making that up. Her AC and her being unable to stand up to a Cloud Giant's full attack is utter garbage, as the Wizard can tank a Cloud Giant by casting Blur and Mirror Image, Alter Self for +8 Nat armour (Crucian). 35 AC at level 12 is useless. Monsters 6 levels ago were able to hit AC 35. So, you're well behind the AC curve. In fact your 6 levels and 15 AC behind appropriate level 12 AC. 43 AC is level 6-7 appropriate using only core monsters; like Hill Giants, and Cloud Giant Skeletons. Then, said wizard with 40-ish AC (since, he's after all, not a main tank) can cast any 1st to 5th spells that simply ropingingi the Cloud Giants to death. Abusing Minor Creation and firing Poisoned darts with Terinav Root works; as does a wand of Shivering Touch. Yeah, the Wizard does't even need to burn good spells on brute monster crap like a cloud giant. The succubus has to spend a round, or two to do her stuff; and her SLAs can provoke AoOs, so she'll probably get interrupted a lot by people that ready an action to attack the first enemy that does something unexpected; like talk.
Argaud 03-27-07, 06:48 PM	Yeah, but that's a crock of you know what and between you and me, we can both admit that the MM is wrong on that count. NPCs get to use the 10/11 stat line. B/c they're not Hard core enough to be an adventurer. Monsters that are hard-core enough to be PCs get the Elite Array at the very least. Wow, you really break all records of both arrogance and retardation. The MM is wrong because you don’t like the rules. Amazing. Do you realice this alone means your opinions are worthless? Keep your houserules for yourself, please. [edit: you posted this while I was typing my post, but I'll quote you b/c you're making a high and mighty point, but you're strawmanning: I can’t believe this guy. He post a page full of houserules, outright lies, major rules mistakes and ad hominem attacks and still dares to say those that quote the real rules are strawmanning and being “high and mighty”! Argaurd: the succucus has a ****** skill setup and the Human Rogue in a Elite Array game blows her apart Human Rogue: 15 Int, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 12 Wis, 10 Cha, 8 Str; That's 8 + 2 + 1 = 11 Skills at Level + 3 ranks at every level. Hmm, 11 skills, let's pick some: Disable Device (Int), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), However, we have a pile of non-essential to dungeon-crawling skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex) Really, the list of 8 has all of the key Rogue skills; let's throw in Diplomacy for 9, Sense Motive for 10 and Bluff for 11. Disable Device (Int), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha) Sense Motive (Wis) Bluff (Wis) So, 11 skills with 15 Ranks. Which is obviously much less than your much vaunted: Oh yeah? Lets give the Succubus the same elite array: Elite Succubus 15 Int, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 12 Wis, 10 Cha, 8 Str becomes Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 21, Wis 14 Cha 24 That's 8 + 5 = 13 Skills at Level + 3 ranks at every level. Or 13 skills at 9 (4 for crossclass skills). Notice the ability selection is sub-optimal, since she is dumping Cha. 117 skill ranks against the rogue’s 165. But with higher skill modifiers. I have also noticed you selected a rogue, the only PHB class that actually gets more skills. How surprising! Of course you would fall in the same cheap fallacy of always comparing the Succubus to the class you find more convenient at the moment, why not a bard this time? Rogue skills: Disable Device (Int) +17 Hide (Dex) +17 Listen (Wis) +15 Move Silently (Dex) +17 Search (Int) +17 Spot (Wis) +15 Tumble (Dex) +17 Use Magic Device (Cha) +14 Diplomacy (Cha) +14 Sense Motive (Wis) +15 Bluff (Wis) +14 Compared with the Succubus: Disguise (Cha) +26 (28 acting) Concentration (Con) +11 Hide (Dex) +12 Listen (Wis) +19 Move Silently (Dex) +12 Search (Int) +14 Spot (Wis) +19 Use Magic Device (Cha) +11 Diplomacy (Cha) +16 Bluff (Wis) +16 Knowledge (the planes) +14 Knowledge (arcana) +14 Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14 Not a surprise for me. The Succubus is –far- better at scouting (spot and listen - she can also scout ethereal) and also better at anything social. And she has more useful skills too. Wait, it's not. Aka, you're wrong; yeah, I'm not gonna mince words any more, you're ust bloody wrong, sicne you fail to recognize what can already be done with the rules. +10 or +20 with gear is okay, but if the rogue has +20 or +30 with gear, guess who's most likely to notice stuff? Yeah, you guessed it. Him, not the ****** ECL 12 succubus. Mincing words? You have come as a pompous fool from the first post. You never minced words, or were anything remotely civil before. And now you bring items? Please. Anything the rogue has so does the Succubus. They are characters of the same level. So they have the same gear. Those are the rules. Live with it. Hence the Succubus skills are still superior. Also, that's +15, before gear, ability mods or anything much else. A +10 item and +5 from ability mods is included right in. Also, you're forgetting that there are many skills that are Trained Only; so she can't UMD out of the monster manual and onto the tabletop. When I do her the favour of writing her up as being able to, she's suffering for it elsewhere. Trained only? Your complete ignorance of the rules shows again. There are no longer any exclusive skills. The Succubus, and any character, can take crossclass skills merely by paying twice as many skill points. And with her +16 charisma and 8 cossclass skill points she has a base of +12 to UMD. Adding above normal charisma and items and she can do perfectly well. Reasonable gear for someone who's actually playing level 11+ the way it's supposed to by the rules, has batcaves and batcaves of 'crappy' magical items worth 15,000 gp or less. Since you can easily Chain-Bind Efreeti to grant you wishes of such "wooden nickels" of the extraplanar markets. The Wizard has a a whole Sweatshop full of Efreeti and a Mining Plantation in the Elemental Plane of Earth to gather gems for himself and the Druid and Cleric so that they can make massive Awakened Tree juggernaus or Stone Golems, Undead legions or Awakened animal shock-troopers. Uh? Yeah, enslaving hordes of Efreet for infinite wishes. I am going to skip the whole part about your particular, ridiculous campaign and your crappy houserules. This has already been talked elsewhere and mocked properly many times. Suffice is to say everything the rogue has the Succubus will have too, being the same level equivalent. Those are the rules. Which you don’t even know. Garbage. That's what it's called. Yeah. Your whole post. Smelly garbage.
Leo 03-27-07, 08:49 PM	Well that rogue surely is spending an hell lot of money to kill a single monster. And if the succubus his taking the full attack of a storm giant, well, she deserves to die for being so dumb. But wait! An unbuffed wizard taking a full attack of a storm giant will also die! How convenient you forgot to say that. And infinite money....Honestly, any cycle that allows you to have infinite money will just get you DM wrathed, and then the sucubbus wins again, because the rogue will be too busy being eaten by vampire half celestial half golem tarrasques that just apeared out of nowhere
Argaud 03-27-07, 09:00 PM	Well that rogue surely is spending an hell lot of money to kill a single monster. And if the succubus his taking the full attack of a storm giant, well, she deserves to die for being so dumb. But wait! An unbuffed wizard taking a full attack of a storm giant will also die! How convenient you forgot to say that. And infinite money....Honestly, any cycle that allows you to have infinite money will just get you DM wrathed, and then the sucubbus wins again, because the rogue will be too busy being eaten by vampire half celestial half golem tarrasques that just apeared out of nowhere Not nowhere, nope. They appear because the guys that have had infinite wishes for centuries (ever since they invented the spells, ages ago) do not like competition, and they are millions of wishes ahead from the PCs, so they are basically omnipotent. That kind of anything-goes/lets-abuse-loopholes campaign, actually, is too demented to work. At all. But always amusing to make fun. Because y'know... Pun-Pun already rules that universe :D
WayneTheGame 03-27-07, 11:14 PM	It's useless to argue with people who think the rules as written are a crock of garbage and that other folks (and the ones in question know which "other folks" I refer to) could do a better job despite having no cred at all to anyone other than their own cult-like following and being bitter over old grudges that somehow prove that they were right all along and were "martyred" for it. The people who are anti-LA are like that because in their mind if you can't utterly eradicate what you face, you suck. If you can't dish out a ton of damage and/or be pretty much invincible, your PC is garbage. If you can't beat out a Druid or a cheesed-out Wizard (because yes, abusing garbage to enslave Efreeti or whatever lame brained trick they quote IS cheese and no sane DM would allow it.) then your character sucks. It's really useless to argue with people who think that their way (and what their like-minded fellows think) is the only right way, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just an idiot.
Leress 03-28-07, 04:49 AM	Jesus H Christ what is going on with this thread!?! It's turned into this stupid cycle of insults, and turning into an us vs them match. Each side believing they are right and no one is listen to one another, so there is no way on Earth a comprise can be reach.
Gemstone 03-28-07, 04:54 AM	SR 18 At 12th level, this is hardly an asset. A 12th level mage has to roll a 6 or more to beat it, so a level 8 mage has to roll 10 or more... hardly a good protection. More of a random miss chance.
Steely_Dan 03-28-07, 06:35 AM	I'm with WayneTheGame – I think LA's are just fine and lovely. And yes, I'm speaking from "personal" experience. *ducks*
Mr.Waesel 03-28-07, 07:46 AM	I know I would like to have a level 12 character that could do those at will. Plus have DR, plus SR, plus resistances, etc... That's great dude thanks for posting.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-28-07, 07:47 AM	LA's are fine and lovely. They keep people from playing monster classes to get free abilities that will synergize awesomely with whatever crazy build they have thought up. "Sweet, I can take X race and combine it with A, B and C classes, toss in some campaign specific feats even though I am not playing in that campaign, and slap on the VOP and my character is unbeatable! As long as I can whine my way out of that stupid +8 LA. :tantrum: " I find that they do discourage people from taking monster races, which makes sense to me. I had a Hill giant Bard in one game. Why? because I wanted to play one. He wasn't great or anything but he held his own well enough. Even RPed a great friendship with our dwarven fighter that had tried to kill him earlier on. I took a monster race and lived with the consequences.
Argaud 03-28-07, 07:57 AM	It's useless to argue with people who think the rules as written are a crock of garbage and that other folks (and the ones in question know which "other folks" I refer to) could do a better job despite having no cred at all to anyone other than their own cult-like following and being bitter over old grudges that somehow prove that they were right all along and were "martyred" for it. You know, I think I am going to sig this paragraph. (May I?)
Kresalak 03-28-07, 08:20 AM	LA's are fine and lovely. They keep people from playing monster classes to get free abilities that will synergize awesomely with whatever crazy build they have thought up. "Sweet, I can take X race and combine it with A, B and C classes, toss in some campaign specific feats even though I am not playing in that campaign, and slap on the VOP and my character is unbeatable! As long as I can whine my way out of that stupid +8 LA. :tantrum: " Great job there. Your blatant misrepresentation of anyone's position and demonizing of your opponents are sure to win you this argument.
MingT 03-28-07, 08:22 AM	You know, I think I am going to sig this paragraph. (May I?) Do you just agree with every bit of monster hating bile someone spews around here? Thats clearly a rhetorical question. Anyways. Your whole post. Smelly garbage. Really nice "civility" you have going there. The use of the word "smelly" makes it especially adult and wry. Screw it, you need some hard facts to put you in your place. And I am not pleased with this, it is so utterly evident, and only tangentially relevant to the the subject of LAs sucking like bad action movie quicksand that I REALLY shouldn't have to show you anything resembling hard data... Its like running numbers to prove the earth isn't flat. But before I do, no having it both ways... ie... Do you realice this alone means your opinions are worthless? Keep your houserules for yourself, please. Uh? Yeah, enslaving hordes of Efreet for infinite wishes. One of those is you hating house rules as part of an argument, the other is you using one as an entire basis for an argument. Think on that. Also the concept of a 12th level PC who's exclusively role is entirely out of combat is also somewhat of a distinct departure from core material so don't go getting on any soap boxes about house rules. But anyway. So lets do a little comparison of the Succubus spy and a non succubus spy. Now despite insisting the succubus is a Spy/skill monkey of some form you seem to have taken offence at someone comparing her to the most immediately obvious spy/skill monkey in the form of a 12th level rogue. Which is a pity cause its what I intend to compare her to. Because if you insist her role is spy, SHE GETS COMPARED TO A SPY. I also intend to ignore equipment, you say they both get the same junk, well, that's a wash then. Of course it isn't since the rogue's UMD opens some pretty big doors in equipment use, but lets pretend to agree and say that's just beyond your level of game play. And elite stats, point buy, who cares, they both get the same attribute generation so that is also a wash, lets make life easy and give them across the board starting attributes of a flat 10. Now look at skills. Lets consider a modest 10 int rogue. At level 12, having never increased his int, with no race at all he has 8*15=120 skill ranks. The succubus starting with the same 10 int before her int mod has 11*6 ranks for a total of 66 ranks. EDIT:( Missed the first level boost for the red push over, should be 11*9 for 99, still significantly behind considering her supposedly massive intellect, should chain through to the next paragraph and comment on 1/8th investment for cross class UMD, but hey, its late at night.) Now already there is a disparity. The rogue has a larger pool of ranks by DOUBLE. Worse if you DID invest in the rogues intelligence he benefits MORE than she does because every 2 points of intelligence gained gives him 15 more ranks compared to the succubus gaining only 6, gaining more than double the benefit from investing further in intelligence. Also, the rogue has a much nicer class skill list. But hey, you don't JUST pile all your ranks on top of each other, there is still the chance the succubus is good at SOMETHING, compared to the rogue, so how many ranks and other bonuses can you pile in one place at once? So the rogue is pretty easy. He can put 15 ranks in one place. In addition he has 3 points of attribute increase from class levels that the succubus doesn't get for a whopping +1 to some arbitrary set of skills via an increased attribute bonus. Woot! He can TOTALLY pile up a +16 to a skill. Yay! Lets not get into regular elite arrays/generation methods having odd numbered starting attributes and gaining 1 more point, you can have that for Christmas come early. The succubus can invest 9 ranks in a skill. Her biggest single piles of net skill bonus are... Anything charisma based. She nets a +16 to charisma for +8 to those nine ranks pulling up to a net... 17! ONE AHEAD OF THE ROGUE. OMG! Throw in an extra point of advantage if the "Spy" rogue didn't specialize, like her, in charisma, lose anywhere up to three ranks into negative from fairly common LA zero cheese like a +2 racial bonus, +1 bonus from a modestly racial increased attribute, and or even a lame expenditure on skill focus (the rogue IS basically 2-3 feats ahead of her...) She pulls ahead EVEN MORE on spot and listen, which is weird and doesn't make anyone happy because no one really goes "gee I'll play a succubus and like see and hear stuff all the time!" with her racial bonus of +8 taking her ability bonus of +2 in that field to get her a net +19 or a whopping 4 ranks ahead! Again increase the advantage by 1 or decrease it by 6 as required from LA 0 racial junk. She gets the BEST bonus on disguise checks, only in a narrow category of course. For get this, a net +27 disguise check as a small or medium humanoid when using her little magical power. Mind you thats mimicking a first level spell that frankly by that level is so readily available to anyone that I'm going to say that one way or another the rogue gets it too, which means ignoring that as a wash... wait... +17, again ONE RANK AHEAD OF THE ROGUE. So super spy scout skill monkey wise she gains in the end about +1 net skill bonus to charisma skills and +4-5 on spot and listen. Maybe. As long as you aren't like some sort of LA zero elf or something. Since you so sagely suggested taking cross class UMD ranks, at a cost of nearly 1/8th of her total ranks she can by 4 ranks in UMD, add her charisma bonus and get a sweet +12, or 4 ranks behind that whopping charisma 13 spy specialist raceless rogue. Yay, a slightly less than 50% chance of failing to UMD a wand, that just ROCKS at level 12! And she gets to be behind on all her other skills. Her next best skills weigh in as Search and Knowledge(just the one) at a whopping net +12, her dex based skills are rolling on the floor crying at a massive net +10. If she takes your advice and wastes her sparse ranks on other cross class skills she can net something like a net +5 skill bonus on most of them. First level characters that can do that and better. And she has 6 hit dice. And all the suck that comes with having six hit die. And she needs more expensive ressurection when she constantly dies from that. She traded all of that, and more, for, MAYBE, +1 extra to charisma skills and a few spells that people have been casting for ages and can buy with chump change. And all this is a comparison that is especially bad for the rogue since higher attributes tend to pay off more as increases that grant benefits in multiples of hit die, like ranks and and hit points, shoot him ever further ahead of the succubus the more you play in the "crazy" land of not making everyone start with base attributes of 10. So yeah, remove the argued about "elite arrays", and equipment that you keep loudly proclaiming are equal and what do you get, a succubus he trades six hit die and lots of ranks of skill for MAYBE a +1 advantage over the rogue in charisma skills and MAYBE +4 or 5 advantage in seeing or hearing whatever it is that is about to kill you accidentally by breathing on you while saying hello. And no crying to momma about the base attributes or equipment used in my example, not giving anyone any is a pretty level playing field, which you insist is the way the those two contributing factors are. All that is really sad territory that is NOT worth 6 hit die. And the moral of the story? Maybe you take a succubus PC into a dungeon like miners carry canaries. She has a whole +20-25% chance to scream, point, and die so everyone knows there is danger.
Gemstone 03-28-07, 08:35 AM	I don't think we will get anywhere with this argument, as there are two clear fields. Those who like LA, and those who don't. I like LA as the thought behind it is good and most LA creatures I use in my games are worth it IMO (Drow, Centaur, Efreeti, Stone Giant, Troll). Some races are overpriced or underpriced, but if you would reprice them, there would be a whole lot of work need to be done. Something I won't be doing, because most races are fine IMO :)
Steely_Dan 03-28-07, 08:45 AM	Great job there. Your blatant misrepresentation of anyone's position and demonizing of your opponents are sure to win you this argument. It was a great job. And he/she is certainly ahead of you in this argument, which should be a debate, if it wasn't for the hostility that people like you are displaying …No wonder gamers get such a bad rep.
WayneTheGame 03-28-07, 09:03 AM	Argaud, certainly you may. MingT, I don't know what you're referring to as my post is not "monster hating bile" but the statement that you can't argue with people who feel they're right no matter what the situation and will argue until blue in the fact that their way is the only "right" way that any "intelligent" person would think, as a lot of posters on this very thread have done (Basically saying "This way is the only way to do it; if you think otherwise you must be an idiot." and insulting anyone who has had different personal experiences)
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-28-07, 09:07 AM	Oh, so what is the point I was arguing against? I was actually just stating my feelings on the matter btw. Is it that LA does not make well optimized characters? I think that is the point of LA, isn't it? I suppose the designers could have carte blanche just said no monstrous PCs.
MingT 03-28-07, 09:25 AM	Argaud, certainly you may. MingT, I don't know what you're referring to as my post is not "monster hating bile" but the statement that you can't argue with people who feel they're right no matter what the situation and will argue until blue in the fact that their way is the only "right" way that any "intelligent" person would think, as a lot of posters on this very thread have done (Basically saying "This way is the only way to do it; if you think otherwise you must be an idiot." and insulting anyone who has had different personal experiences) So then are you now seriously advocating that in a thread essentially asking "Hey, is LA like REALLY the way to do things" Answering "No LA is a stupid way to do things" isn't valid and you instead suggest that every ones opinion must append that we should hold hands and all say "hey whatever LA isn't stupid and its perfectly valid if your into that kind of thing, not that there is anything wrong with that...". Or rather are you simply implying that anyone who dislikes a really stupid way of doing it should all just shut up, stop being "incivil" or whatever and go away because you think they are mean or something. 'Cause thats the more plausible reading of your post.
Argaud 03-28-07, 09:31 AM	Do you just agree with every bit of monster hating bile someone spews around here? Thats clearly a rhetorical question. Obviously I do not. After all Judging Eagle's post was full of bile, insults, profanity and hate, and I disagreed with him. And I am not pleased with this, it is so utterly evident, and only tangentially relevant to the the subject of LAs sucking like bad action movie quicksand that I REALLY shouldn't have to show you anything resembling hard data... What tangentially anything are you talking about? This whole thread is about LAs. One of those is you hating house rules as part of an argument, the other is you using one as an entire basis for an argument. Think on that. I don't hate house rules. I have a few in my games. I have seen some house rules posted here that make a lot of sense. However, we can't assume everybody will use our houserules and build arguments about the rulebooks around them. Starting an argument saying "the rulebooks are garbage, this is what really should be done ----> therefore this monster/class/character sucks" is, quite frankly, garbage. Also the concept of a 12th level PC who's exclusively role is entirely out of combat is also somewhat of a distinct departure from core material so don't go getting on any soap boxes about house rules. Now I have no idea what you are talking about, which character role is completely out of combat?... but okay, whatever. So lets do a little comparison of the Succubus spy and a non succubus spy. Now despite insisting the succubus is a Spy/skill monkey of some form you seem to have taken offence at someone comparing her to the most immediately obvious spy/skill monkey in the form of a 12th level rogue. Which is a pity cause its what I intend to compare her to. Because if you insist her role is spy, SHE GETS COMPARED TO A SPY. I also intend to ignore equipment, you say they both get the same junk, well, that's a wash then. Of course it isn't since the rogue's UMD opens some pretty big doors in equipment use, but lets pretend to agree and say that's just beyond your level of game play. And elite stats, point buy, who cares, they both get the same attribute generation so that is also a wash, lets make life easy and give them across the board starting attributes of a flat 10. Now look at skills. Lets consider a modest 10 int rogue. At level 12, having never increased his int, with no race at all he has 8*15=120 skill ranks. The succubus starting with the same 10 int before her int mod has 11*6 ranks for a total of 66 ranks. Okay. Spies. Okay. Whatever. The main problem I detect here is that you don't even know how skill points are calculated. You see, it is (HD +3)*SK/level. So the int 10 rogue actually receives 120 skill points, and the 6HD succubus gets 99. Meanwhile, the level 12 bard, with his 6sk/level receives only 90. So as you can see even though the succubus receives only 6 levels worth of skills, she already has more than the bard or the ranger, classes that are generally considered to have a very good number of skill points per level. Now already there is a disparity. The rogue has a larger pool of ranks by DOUBLE. Worse if you DID invest in the rogues intelligence he benefits MORE than she does because every 2 points of intelligence gained gives him 15 more ranks compared to the succubus gaining only 6, gaining more than double the benefit from investing further in intelligence. It is 15 vs 9. But yeah, the rogue benefits from higher Int (you insisted in giving 10 to both, not me). Although there is the problem of where his 25 points go, of course. Most rogues like to prioritize Dex and Con over Int, since 8sk/level is already pretty good. Then many rogues like to have decent Cha to shine with social skills (they have a lot of those) or have good Wis to compensate the abyssmal will save, or have good strength to do more damage and not be easily grappled. Also, the rogue has a much nicer class skill list. I don't think so. Except for UMD I can't see any interesting skill the rogue has that the Succubus doesn't. But hey, you don't JUST pile all your ranks on top of each other, there is still the chance the succubus is good at SOMETHING, compared to the rogue, so how many ranks and other bonuses can you pile in one place at once? Posted already. Equal abilities the Succubus is superior at Listen, Spot, Diplomacy and Bluff. She is inferior at Move Silently, Hide and UMD. She does not bother with Sense Motive since she has Detect Thoughts, which is generally better. Disable Device is a so-so skill for a teleporter/ethereal character, although it helps the party, but in exchange she has good ranks on important knowledge skills which she can share with the party. So the rogue is pretty easy. He can put 15 ranks in one place. In addition he has 3 points of attribute increase from class levels that the succubus doesn't get for a whopping +1 to some arbitrary set of skills via an increased attribute bonus. The "whopping +1" is a joke, right? I mean, +3 extra ability points against the Succubus +32 racial. It had to be a joke. :rolleyes: Woot! He can TOTALLY pile up a +16 to a skill. Yay! Lets not get into regular elite arrays/generation methods having odd numbered starting attributes and gaining 1 more point, you can have that for Christmas come early. The succubus can invest 9 ranks in a skill. Her biggest single piles of net skill bonus are... Anything charisma based. She nets a +16 to charisma for +8 to those nine ranks pulling up to a net... 17! ONE AHEAD OF THE ROGUE. OMG! Throw in an extra point of advantage if the "Spy" rogue didn't specialize, like her, in charisma, lose anywhere up to three ranks into negative from fairly common LA zero cheese like a +2 racial bonus, +1 bonus from a modestly racial increased attribute, and or even a lame expenditure on skill focus (the rogue IS basically 2-3 feats ahead of her...) She pulls ahead EVEN MORE on spot and listen, which is weird and doesn't make anyone happy because no one really goes "gee I'll play a succubus and like see and hear stuff all the time!" with her racial bonus of +8 taking her ability bonus of +2 in that field to get her a net +19 or a whopping 4 ranks ahead! Again increase the advantage by 1 or decrease it by 6 as required from LA 0 racial junk. So is she ahead in the skills or not? Yes, she is. The rogue could take crappy skill feats, indeed, after all he has a whopping TWO more feats (3 if human - wooot!). Maybe he should spend a feat to have DR10... oh wait, he can't. Then maybe to be able to teleport at will... neither? Hmmm... I guess getting Skill Focus in Spot and Listen is good. Now he is just one point behind the succubus, congratulations! She gets the BEST bonus on disguise checks, only in a narrow category of course. For get this, a net +27 disguise check as a small or medium humanoid when using her little magical power. Mind you thats mimicking a first level spell that frankly by that level is so readily available to anyone that I'm going to say that one way or another the rogue gets it too, which means ignoring that as a wash... wait... +17, again ONE RANK AHEAD OF THE ROGUE. I find this paragraph almost impossible to understand, but I get the impression that you found that the succubus was, again, better than the rogue, and you are writing in caps because you are very impressed or something :D So super spy scout skill monkey wise she gains in the end about +1 net skill bonus to charisma skills and +4-5 on spot and listen. Maybe. As long as you aren't like some sort of LA zero elf or something. Since you so sagely suggested taking cross class UMD ranks, at a cost of nearly 1/8th of her total ranks she can by 4 ranks in UMD, add her charisma bonus and get a sweet +12, or 4 ranks behind that whopping charisma 13 spy specialist raceless rogue. Yay, a slightly less than 50% chance of failing to UMD a wand, that just ROCKS at level 12! Wait, she is 3 points behind the rogue in UMD. You have been ranting for several pages than 4-5 points of skills are not important. Please, make up your mind, are they important or not? And she gets to be behind on all her other skills. Her next best skills weigh in as Search and Knowledge(just the one) at a whopping net +12, her dex based skills are rolling on the floor crying at a massive net +10. If she takes your advice and wastes her sparse ranks on other cross class skills she can net something like a net +5 skill bonus on most of them. First level characters that can do that and better. Look, after several paragraphs I got the impression you realized that the succubus was ahead in most skill than the rogue. And now you are pretending it actually doesn't matter? I took crossclass ranks in the only skill I think it matters, UMD, which perfectly synergizes with the succubus massive charisma. And yeah, items of +5 or even +10 to skills are cheap at level 12. What is your point again? I think you lost it a few paragraphs above. And she has 6 hit dice. And all the suck that comes with having six hit die. And she needs more expensive ressurection when she constantly dies from that. How is so? I find blank statements pretty stupid. She has very good AC, very good immunities, and her saves aren't that bad (base +6, +6, +7 against most classes +4, +4, +8). 60 hp are okay if she is going to substract 10 from each and every attack. The only thing that gets her are the spells that affect HD, and just one weakness does not make a character invalid. Many other classes have far larger weaknesses. She traded all of that, and more, for, MAYBE, +1 extra to charisma skills and a few spells that people have been casting for ages and can buy with chump change. It is is just false. It is not even an opinion, it is a lie. No PHB character of level 12 can cast Greater Teleport or Ethereal Jaunt. Period. Using a scroll of those is -very- expensive for level 12. Even Charm Monster scrolls are pretty expensive, and almost useless because the save DC of a scroll is so low. And all this is a comparison that is especially bad for the rogue since higher attributes tend to pay off more as increases that grant benefits in multiples of hit die, like ranks and and hit points, shoot him ever further ahead of the succubus the more you play in the "crazy" land of not making everyone start with base attributes of 10. Yes, high attributes are very good if one has many skills. Congratulations, you have just discovered one of the strong points of the succubus. Mind you, it is not a weakness of a LA+0 rogue. It is an advantage of LA+ races. So yeah, remove the argued about "elite arrays", and equipment that you keep loudly proclaiming are equal and what do you get, a succubus he trades six hit die and lots of ranks of skill for MAYBE a +1 advantage over the rogue in charisma skills and MAYBE +4 or 5 advantage in seeing or hearing whatever it is that is about to kill you accidentally by breathing on you while saying hello. Now you are repeating yourself. And it does not make the argument more true. It makes you just repeating yourself. Which is probably not a good idea. Because repeating silly arguments again and again makes one look foolish. :)
WayneTheGame 03-28-07, 09:36 AM	What I am saying, MingT, is that some of the more vocal people on this thread seem to be saying "Look, this is broken! I don't care what your personal experiences are, IT'S BROKEN and if you don't see that then you're an idiot". What should be said is that "I feel LA is broken because <blah, blah blah>. If it works for you in your games, then good job and kudos to you, but here's what I think could be done to make it better..." People are ignoring the fact that what is broken to someone isn't broken to everyone, and being "broken" in your game doesn't mean that it's broken, period. That's why most of the posts here seem to be COUNTER to the vocal minority and say that LA is fine, but then said vocal minority attempt to point out why it's not and that everyone who thinks it's fine is stupid. I call it the WTG Fallacy: Just because something is broken in your experience doesn't mean it's broken to everyone, and you cannot use it s irrefutable proof that it's broken in general.
Gemstone 03-28-07, 09:51 AM	No PHB character of level 12 can cast Greater Teleport or Ethereal Jaunt. Period. Using a scroll of those is -very- expensive for level 12. Even Charm Monster scrolls are pretty expensive, and almost useless because the save DC of a scroll is so low Don't you mean that no character can cast it at will? Also, why does both the succubus and rogue have Int 10? Shouldn't the Succubus have Int 16? +6 racial bonus? Or did I miss when you included that? I call it the WTG Fallacy: Just because something is broken in your experience doesn't mean it's broken to everyone, and you cannot use it s irrefutable proof that it's broken in general. WTG, I hereby give you a [:schemes: - Redeemed Pit Fiend Clr4] board miniature to put in your signature :D That's so true I just have to reward it with one of my minatures from the Loners of the Overdark set
Argaud 03-28-07, 09:59 AM	Also, why does both the succubus and rogue have Int 10? Shouldn't the Succubus have Int 16? +6 racial bonus? Or did I miss when you included that? I assumed MingT meant Int 10 was the base. So 10 for the rogue, 16 for the succubus. It we assume a very stupid (Int 10) succubus then... she gets 72 skill points, so MingT numbers still make no sense. No, I am pretty sure we were talking about an Int 10 rogue and an Int 16 succubus.
MingT 03-28-07, 10:04 AM	"It worked fine for me" is a highly ignorable argument. Especially when accompanied by insistance on the playability of everything up to ECL 20 LA 10 characters. In other news, minor skill point gaff corrected in larger post. Problem not actually as foolishly and wishfully interpretted by Arguad. Just missed the first level boost for one out of two of the classes discussed.
runestar 03-28-07, 10:09 AM	"It worked fine for me" is a highly ignorable argument. Especially when accompanied by insistence on the playability of everything up to ECL 20 LA 10 characters. This is the part I do not understand. There are people who have admitted to playing a ghaele SS progression. They are the ones with first-hand experience, and know for a fact, beyond reasonable doubt that it is very much playable despite the henious looking LA of +10. Game experience, unlike merely hypothetical postulating, does not lie. Why do you keep insisting otherwise, despite the presence of empirical evidence clearly indicating otherwise?:confused:
Gemstone 03-28-07, 10:11 AM	"It worked fine for me" is a highly ignorable argument. Especially when accompanied by insistance on the playability of everything up to ECL 20 LA 10 characters Err... you do realize that "It doesn't work fine for me" is a similiar ignorable argument? Just because you find it broken doesn't mean that we find it broken too. However, in this case I can say that you have very good merit to your claims of it being broken (hey, I've said so myself because parts of it are broken). Basicly, both sides needs to prove their views. So if we keep comparing numbers, it's quite possible we can reach a concensous (then again, I'm known to be wrong ;))
Argaud 03-28-07, 10:23 AM	"It worked fine for me" is a highly ignorable argument. Maybe so. But by the same rules so is "it didn't work for me". And if followed by insults to the people disagreeing with you, it is not just ignorable, it is offensive. Especially when accompanied by insistance on the playability of everything up to ECL 20 LA 10 characters. Because it does not work for you? Or do you have some solid, objective argument against the critter in question? If you mean the Gaele, then I have to say I find it hard to believe it is LA+10, it seems too much, but I haven't much experience with them - I am 99% sure beholders aren't LA+13, that is crazy talk! Succubus, though, I can see them as LA+6. But I could see someone wanting them being LA+5 or LA+7. Notice that an elite Succubus is CR8, and if given adventurer gear it will quickly go to CR9 (for minor NPC stuff) or CR10 (level 10-12 PC stuff). Going all the way to ECL12 is not difficult to fathom when suddenly her slas count much more if she can use them in several encounters than if she uses them just in one 2-8 rounds battle with a party of PCs.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-28-07, 10:23 AM	I think the problem lies when you try to make a character of a monster races equivilent to a normal PC race. PC races may be slightly better at one profession than another but monster races are that much harder to generalize. What I mean is this: Sure a gray elf may be uber at being a wizard but he can make a highly playable ranger, rogue or cleric also. While a troll taking barbarian levels is ok he would be hard pressed to make a viable rogue or spellcaster.
Mr.Waesel 03-28-07, 11:56 AM	I like LA as the thought behind it is good Did you read the Rich Redman quote? How can you agree with it?
NineInchNall 03-28-07, 11:56 AM	Err... you do realize that "It doesn't work fine for me" is a similiar ignorable argument? Yes, which is why anecdotal evidence, all anecdotal evidence is ignored by some posters and held up as something "that does not lie" by others. *sigh*
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-28-07, 12:44 PM	Did you read the Rich Redman quote? How can you agree with it? Without skimming through the entire thread.. could you provide a post # or a link for said quote? I am a tad skeptical though. If the quote is after 2002 especially.
Gemstone 03-28-07, 01:22 PM	Did you read the Rich Redman quote? How can you agree with it? I don't necessarily agree with the very idea of "we make monsters suck", but that's not the ORIGINAL idea behind LA. The original idea behind LA is to make powerful characters balanced. True, savage species inflated the value of LA, but Drow for example, are a good example of LA +2 compared to many other races out there. Also, in my book, Monsters should be rare because many times (such as trolls) they provide the group with abilities that are far beyond anything else that can achieve with regular characters
Judging Eagle 03-28-07, 02:13 PM	This is the part I do not understand. There are people who have admitted to playing a ghaele SS progression. They are the ones with first-hand experience, and know for a fact, beyond reasonable doubt that it is very much playable despite the henious looking LA of +10. Game experience, unlike merely hypothetical postulating, does not lie. Why do you keep insisting otherwise, despite the presence of empirical evidence clearly indicating otherwise?:confused: Yeah, there's that statement. The problem is that we don't know the way in which that game was run. Where you fighting things CR 10-12 in mass numbers? Like, 12 CR 10 creatures to have an Encounter Level 18 fight? or 8 CR 13 Creatures to have a EL 19 fight? If so, then it's easier to say that your LA +10 character was "okay" than if said character was actually facing stuff that's closer to it's CR. Heck, you can get to level 11 just killing 170-something CR 2 bugbears. And then level 20 can be reached with various Hydras. Which brings me to the following statement: "Just b/c you play a high level character (or a high ECL character) does not mean you are actually playing a high level game." You could seriously be playing the exact same type of game from level 1 to 10 with no noticable differences other than the 'goblins' you're fighting are now bugbears or ogres or trolls and your attack and damage rolls have increased. If you play a game where tactics don't really change every two levels due to new gear, feats, class abilities or class-based magic; then all that you're playing is level 1 with bigger numbers. Now, I'm not saying that's wrong or anything like that. You just need to realize, that while your Wizard 5/Barbarian 5/Rage Mage 2 is great at mass-murdering CR 2-4 bugbears and their level 8 cleric war-priests; it's not able to act like a CR 12 character. That character is not going to be up to par with the 10th lvl ranged touch attack sneak attack Rogue who does inserttion and assasination jobs of fiends for the Diety of Honourable Battle that has press-ganged him to perform such tasks (remember, Honour in D&D has nothing to do with Earth's Chivalric Codes; since In D&D you do have powerful people like Wizards, Druids, Clerics, Rogues, Rangers and Assasins; along with Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians, yes even Barbarians are counted among the ranks of the powerful; and it's those in power that determine what's honourable) or the 10th lvl cleric who uses Vrock terror-squads and Suicide-bombing Zombie Birds and Wyverns to raid and harry the invading Cloud Giants Sky Fortresses to keep your homeland safe. Of course, if you feel that D&D should be "Earth plus orcs and goblins" that's cool, but you're in a non-core setting. The core setting assumes that you'll be using the core rules. A place where high level clerics literally create armies of the dead on a whim[which is frightening]; badgers and forest gnomes have meaningful conversations about how to deal with the nearby kobold tribe [which is warming]; winged horses can actually fly with resorting to having their physiche radically altered so that it would actually work (i.e. increase their brestbone depth to give the 'pegasaus' the muscle mass needed to fly via muscle power alone)[which is fantastic]; it is also a place where high level rogues can reasonably be pressganged by someone like Heironeous into being an other of his War-Priest champions by giving him a Holy Avenger and supplying a Candle of Invocation daily [which is ironic and humerous]. Seriously, you have to look at the rules and see what they present to you. If you want to impose your own vision of the rules you have to say so in advance, if not your point of view will always seem at odds with the rules that function in a manner that you obviously don't realize. As it stands, the LA system states in no uncertain terms: "We don't want you to play a monster" Well, frankly that's lame. Although, it hardly affects me as a player or a GM, it does affect my other fellow players who want to do stuff, like: play a minotaur fighter, or be almost any female fey that has animals as her bestest friends, or be a cackling hyena-man. Now, those are cool concepts, but the silly thing is that most people who want to play those types of characters aren't optimizers by a long shot. So, giving people who already make sub-par choices; worse options it's like enforcing other dumb things like multiclassing penalties; which almost never harm anyone except an organic or concept character. Seriously, with the multclassing bit. melee builds have either low enough levels or only 2 base classes and then PrC immediately so they don't see the down side of multiclassing. Spell casters for the most part never lose casting levels so they don't see the down sides of multiclassing either. The only people who suffer multiclassing penalties are the people who pick their class levels on a whim, have a concept that they're trying to follow or are making an 'organic' character. The people who you don't want to weight down with extra mechanical penalties. Excessive level adjustments fall in the same place. Even the most rabid optimizer won't generally look at a monster race; even if the LA is reduced to +0 (of course, you still have to pay for HD as if they were levels, but that's besides the point). Even using Frank and K's much more liberal method, I know that a straight human Class X is generally better than an any monster Class X. Mostly b/c the human is able to focus more on their specialty, while the monster didn't start until they have been around a while and practiced their species innate talents first. Really, it doesn't matter how much you strip LA and you play a race and build that synergizes well. Chances are pretty good that an existing character probably does the same job, better and with more depth in speciality. Also, they might even do it at a lower level than your ECL. Seriously, if you let people who want to play a monster race to have their monster PC get re-created as a PC whose CR is equal to "Monster CR + 1"; it's barely passable. It doesn't make people who want to play an ECL 22 Phasm cry b/c the 17th level Druid is able to out-do his shtick (change forms into anyhting you want) in a better manner (Shapechange 24 hr, over Polymorph 24 hr) at five levels lower. Heck, even if you make the Phasm a CR 8 PC, that can Polymorph at will, it's never going to be as powerful as a Druid that can Shapechange or any build that can easily Shapechange 24 hr/day. Seriously, I've tried it, it doesn't work. Giving monster races to PCs won't do anything that a PC with a CR 1 or less race with lots of class levels can get in a better form for less cost. Of course, none of this will seem reasonable if you don't seem to think that Fighters get "Nothing Good" as part of their special abilties suite and are convinced that b/c a 20th lvl fighter is good at stuff that only a 5th lvl character cares about that the class is 'balanced'; while ignoring the fact that the fighter was merely "Mr. Coup de Grace" to his other party member's "Batman", "Praying Batman" and "Magical Batman" from levels 1-19.
Leo 03-28-07, 04:19 PM	Wait, who around here thinks geting infinite wishes at lv9 ISN'T broken?????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????? For the guy above:Optmizers don't look at monster cllases because they are poor choices. If you make them good choices, thent he optmizers will be flowing over them like fleas, and we'll have threads discussing why the core races aren't played anymore. EDIT:Also, you can't ignore the fact monsters aren't characters. A character is suposed to be minimaly versatile. Monster are usually recquired to just do one or 2 things well. Like ogres and centaurs. They were created for melee. So you can't really complain they don't make good casters.
Gemstone 03-28-07, 04:51 PM	Wait, who around here thinks geting infinite wishes at lv9 ISN'T broken? Okay, let's take a little break here. In order to get those infinite wishes, the Dm has to LET the player get them. A bard has the potential to conquer cities through charisma alone just because of his good interaction skills. The same goes for a mage who buys a wand of suggestion or a wand of dominate monster. Thus, at least IMO, this isn't a valid argument for the LA system being fine (or broken)
Judging Eagle 03-28-07, 09:12 PM	Okay, let's take a little break here. In order to get those infinite wishes, the Dm has to LET the player get them. A bard has the potential to conquer cities through charisma alone just because of his good interaction skills. The same goes for a mage who buys a wand of suggestion or a wand of dominate monster. Thus, at least IMO, this isn't a valid argument for the LA system being fine (or broken) Any DM who has to respond to smart players with "you can't do that" is really saying: "I didn't think that was possible by the rules. Since I don't see that event as part of my view of the world you are playing in, I will now narrow the world view and remove that option from your hands". Also, the infinite wish loop is available to smart (read, 20+ int, 20+ wis) PCs and players as soon as they can, as a group, muster enough gold to buy a +2 weapon + 400 gp (8,400 gp). If the group decides that their Cleric must have a Candle of Invocation (and which group wouldn't, your cleric will cast and prepare spells as if he was 2 levels higher), then they can all benefit when the Cleric calls upon a wise and powerful Noble Djinni to grant them 3 Wishes; for Candles of Invocation. Of course, really, Wish is the spell that you should hit with the Nerf-bat, not infinite Wish Loops. Djinni, Efreeti and Solar Angels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) already can benefit from infinite wish loops. Solars having the best deal however since they don't need an other being to get the Wishes that they want each day. The Noble Djinnis and Efreeties (collectively known as Genies) probably have established trade pacts with Canny Mortals to whom they grant 2 wishes per day, in exchange for getting the 3rd wish to benefit the Genie itself. So, it actually stands to reason that Genies are actively seeking mortal summoners who will allow them to tap into the magical reserves of power that only a Non-genie can draw out of them. So, the Genie (good or evil) gives you 2 wishes, and then asks if you can wish for something that they want for the 3rd wish. If you're a dick and decide to 'take' the 3rd wish for yourself, an Efreeti makes the 3rd wish that the greedy mortal wanted be horribly tainted/cursed, while the Noble Djinni marks your name down on his list and will come after you tomorrow with his next days "client" and they'll both kill you, or take everything you got for your 3rd (or all of) your last days Wishes. Also, 'what' wish can and cannot accomplish should be better lined out. Excerpted from the [url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=646241Tome of Fiends[/url] supplement: Optional Rules There are a number of places in the rules that governing Fiends that just don't work at all, or don't work in a way that is good. This is an attempt to fix them. No Wishing for More Wishes! The 3.5 wish spell is very explicit in what it can do, and extremely vague about what it can't do. It has a big list of things it is capable of, and then tells the DM to ad hoc things if anyone wishes for anything that isn't on that list. Unfortunately, wishing for a Staff of 50 wishes is on the list of things you can wish for. The XP cost is considerable (512,180 XP), but if you get your wishes from a magic item (like a Staff of 50 Wishes) or a spell-like ability (like an Efreet), you don't have to pay that XP cost, so the fact that it is stupidly large doesn't even matter. Needless to say, the game completely breaks down as soon as that happens. So in that spirit, we suggest an alternate list of things wish can do, coupled with some things wish actually can't do: Free Wishes – the following wishes have no XP cost: – Wealth: A character can wish for mundane wealth whose total value is 25,000 gp or less. – Magic Item: A character can wish for a magic item that costs 15,000 gp or less. – Power: A character can wish to increase an inherent bonus to any attribute by 1 (to a maximum of +5) – Spell: A character can wish for the effects of any spell that lacks an XP cost that is lower level than the highest level spell in its spell list (a wizard spell of 8th level or less, or a paladin spell of 3rd level or less, for example). – Transport: A character can wish herself and 1 other willing creature per caster level to any location on any plane. Wishes that aren't Free – the following wishes cost XP or gp or both: – Add to the Powers of a Magic Item: A character can increase the powers of a magic item to anything she could enhance it to with her own item creation feats. This requires 1 XP for every 10 gp increase in magic item value. – Raise the Dead: A character can bring the dead back to "life", even if they were an undead, construct, or other creature that cannot normally be brought back to life. This may even be able to bring back a creature who has been devoured by a Barghest (50% chance of success). This costs 3,000 XP, which can be paid in any combination by the caster or the target. The spent XP for this wish can reduce a character's level, but coming back to life in this manner otherwise won't do so. – Undo Misfortune: A character can wish back the sands of time in order to force events of the last round to be replayed. Time can be reset to any point back to the character's previous initiative pass. This use costs 1000 XP. While the action spent to cast wish in this case is restored, the character still loses the spell slot and XP used to power it. – Turn Back Time: A poorly fated adventure can be averted entirely with a wish. The character expends the slot and pays 5,000 xp, and none of it ever happened. Wishes that are Rituals – some wishes have much greater costs, at the whim of the DM. Here is an example: – Become a new Creature: A character can wish themselves into being a new creature. This must be done when a character is eligible to gain a new level, and the character makes the wish and takes a level of the new racial class (or racial paragon class) and is now the new race. Any use of wish causes the wisher to become fatigued (and yes, there are ways to get around that). Creatures with spell-like abilities that grant wishes may only grant wishes that have no XP cost. So an Efreet can give you as many +2 swords as it wants, but an Efreet can't give in to your request to have a +3 sword. Also, you'll notice that we categorize the inherent bonuses as something that's free and therefore going to be rapidly available to all the player characters somewhere between 11th and 15th levels. That's because we seriously believe that it is more balanced for characters to all gain +5 inherent bonuses than it is for some characters to figure out how to manipulate XP gains and thought bottles to get inherent bonuses while the other players don't. Inherent bonuses need to be available or not available to everyone or they break the game. Magic items with wish on them can be used to cast wishes with an XP cost of at most 5,000 XP, and are produced as items using spells with a cost of 5,000 XP. As a result, you can't wish for an item that has wish on it. It should be noted that his "optional" rule makes Wish something that people can actually use without making their DMs cry. There's a built-in magical item guide line with these rules to keep Wish from ever being abusive (aka. saving up wished for gold to buy magical item X) as well as a value cap (15,000 gp); that normal wish does not have. Giving PCs infinite GP is not a big deal if you give them an ultimate cap on what they can achieve with that gold. If they cannot buy a magic item worth 15,001 gp, then that means they can't really 'break' your game if you give them an actual Dragon's hoard of gold. Unless, giving your PCs a broad selection of +3 armours/shields; +2 weapons, +3 resistance cloaks, +2 amulets of nat armour, +2 rings of protection, +2 stat items and wands with 3rd or lower level spells will, as you say "break the game". If it can, and the PCs are level 5 and don't have a single +2 weapon among them, you are probably are being nice and still are using CR 2-3 monsters and not CR 5's. Not all DMs are like that though. So having a consensus as to what is "level appropriate" in terms of equipment (and abilities) ensures that PCs will have something to work with when they face a CR 6 hill giant with 4 CR 4 Dire wolves (when the party is made up of 4 CR 6 PCs and 4 more PCs with CR's 4-3). Of course, if the PCs sell things that are worth more than gold (ex. Souls bound in Gems a la Bind the Soul, Raw Chaos, Liquid Hope, Angel Tears, Bottled Fiend's Sorrow etc.) then it's fair game, since you've hit the lvl 12+ extraplanar component of D&D. Although, extraplanar games can start at level 1, and can be accessed by most by level 7. Crafting items is also fine, since somebody is actually losing life force (xp) in order to get the item made. For the guy above:Optimizers don't look at monster cllases because they are poor choices. If you make them good choices, thent he optmizers will be flowing over them like fleas, and we'll have threads discussing why the core races aren't played anymore. Ok, this was discussed back on page 1 or 2. I thought you were reading and posting in this thread since then. Someone (actually it was you), mentioned much earlier how Ogre Mages > Grey Elves as casters or how Gnolls trumped Humans as barbarians, or how Ogres were better at melee than anything (they are, but with an equitable range of melee classes, you'll be a human in order to get your Barbarian jones on) a poor response to my postulation that removing LAs completely will not make players or optimizers select monster races over 1 HD non-monster races. My rebuttal was as follows, since you didn't read it on page 2? If LA wasn't so high, nowadays we would have threads like: To which I will add, the actual answers that will arise to all of these nub posts. "OMG gnols are the pnwrz" At what? Being Hyena dudez? Hellz yeah! But they're not good at much else. What? Barbarian? Oh, whoopdee-*******-do? Barbarian is not a PC class at level 10 as it stands. Taking 10 levels of Barbarian is in short, unspeakably stupid. Humanoid HD are even worse than that. So, imagine losing 2 "amazing" barbarian HD for two ****** 3/4 BaB humanoid HD. Yeah, I'm seeing it now. Utter garbage. Non-class HD blow and are completely for people who want flavour over power. "Taking dwarf as race is like shooting yourself in the foot. Ogre magi is much better" That's complete ********; even as a CR 8 character (8 HD ogre MAgi to bring it's HD inline with it's CR), it's a crappy PC. The Dwarf Cleric PC would utterly destroy a stock ogre mage with PC gear. Again, since monster HD, blow and are completely for people who want flavour over power. "Help me make humans worth playig" Play a Cleric, Archivist (in a permissive game), Druid, Rogue, Ranger, Psion. You are the only not-sucky character in your group now? "Gold or Red dragon for my 1st level druid?" Neither you noob. Roll a Jermalaine (MM2, high racial bonus to wis, no LA, 1 HD). They have almsot no CR and get to ride their any of their animal companions into battlez (since they're really small, I think Tiny even). The problem is that most of the time, class abilities will always be much better than what a monsters HD gives them. You can't really make a monster better than a non-monster (ie. any creautre with no more HD than 1, that can be replaced with an HD from a class) at a specific task. You can make a monster more flavourful at a specific task however. It however, will never be much better than a real PC with real levels in a real class. The Succubus PC can't do anything except scout and try to remove one enemy from combat at a time. The other presented races don't actually do that good of job at fulfilling a class role that more levels in a class doesn't already accomplish. I've proved this point here already and I've done the same in actual games; my 'boring' human characters tend to to be on par early on, and then utterly destroy stuff like the Half-Dragon monk, the Ogre Barbarian, the Minotaur fighter or the tiefling rogue; and in those games the players lost their races starting monster HD and up to +3 LA. Seriously, any non-class HD will slow any progression of an godly to average build noticeably. You only keep revealing yourself as a person with a poor grasp of the the arithmetic that occurs when you compare Racial HD to Class HD and keep using the same argument again after I knocked it down. Seriously, I'm actually surprised that Argaud doesn't claim that you're a sock-puppet account of mine that I'm using you prop my own claims up against an argument that I closed back on page 2. Since your "No LAs will have everyone flocking to be a monster race" argument doesn't hold water now and never did. Then again, only a devious person like myself would claim say such a thing in a bid to stir things up :P. Your prolific posts per day would of course dissuade such a claim by anyone. In any case, we all should have a universal belief as to what constitutes "breaking the game" Me, I say that it's anything that: "Is accessible to two PCs, but for non-equivalent costs" Most LA monsters are broken since they blow, even without LA they're 'ok', but will probably never be any more than their racial HD with some bonus training in terms of Class HD tacked on at the end. The True Necromancer is broken under that reasoning, getting spellcasting 4 levels behind is broken since the DM now has to give the player a custom artifact item to ensure that the PC can do more or better spell casting (a self-renewing Candle of Invocation, where you have to prepare or known for a spont caster at least 1 Necromancy School spell per spell level). Thus ensuring that they are not Robin's Sidekick in terms of performance in a game of "Batman and Friends"; where all of the PCs are supposed to be Batman, Hawkman, The Martian Manhunter, Superman, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman or Green Lantern in terms of power level. Yes, performing vastly below par in a group is just as broken as performing vastly above par. When you perform 2 to 4 levels worse than someone your level, it makes the DM and the other players cry. Until of course, your Core Fighter gets the Sword of Kas (useable be anyone, even Neutral Good fighters) or your Monk gets a set of Magical Power Gloves that break the rules for monk weapons. Of course, I'm of the opinion that PCs that are the same "power level" should perform on the 'same' "power level", not have widely variable power levels for characters that should be the same CR.
Argaud 03-28-07, 10:03 PM	Also, the infinite wish loop is available to smart (read, 20+ int, 20+ wis) PCs and players as soon as they can, as a group, muster enough gold to buy a +2 weapon + 400 gp (8,400 gp). If the group decides that their Cleric must have a Candle of Invocation (and which group wouldn't, your cleric will cast and prepare spells as if he was 2 levels higher), then they can all benefit when the Cleric calls upon a wise and powerful Noble Djinni to grant them 3 Wishes; for Candles of Invocation. The catch of that reasoning is that the PCs are late comers in the game of infinite wishes. Given Candles of Invocation allow for the calling of solars, you have every person in the universe in the game of infinite wishes the instant they can afford one of the candles. And it has been so for centuries, maybe thousands of years. Ever since the first sentient creature reached level 9 as cleric, or ever since the first wizards invented the spells. So the players come to a world that is inhabited by Pun-Pun-like creatures. Utterly invincible, with millions of wishes already cast. They are, therefore, completely irrelevant. Their universe is a weird Alice-in-wonderland place where anything happens all the time at the whim of the wish-masters. This campaign is utterly bizarre and alien, and although it might be interesting to explore from a purely roleplaying viewpoint it has no relation with what D&D is intended to be. There's a built-in magical item guide line with these rules to keep Wish from ever being abusive (aka. saving up wished for gold to buy magical item X) as well as a value cap (15,000 gp); that normal wish does not have. Why are you limiting yourself to 15,000 gold items? Any city of 25,000+ inhabitants has items worth up to 100,000 gold. It is written in the DMG. If a PC has infinite wishes and infinite wealth he also has, by the rules, infinite items of 100,000 gold or less of value. If you want to play "by the rules" you can't claim that some things aren't in the rules. Not that it matters, since everybody with level 9 or 5,000 gold also has infinite wishes and infinite wealth. And since they had them for longer than you, they are too powerful for you to consider even crossing. All the PCs can do is bully little monsters and pray someone with a few thousand wishes more than them in their pocket does not decide to turn them into playthings. Welcome to Bizarre D&D.
Judging Eagle 03-28-07, 10:05 PM	You mean. D&D. It`s always been bizarre.
Archangel62 03-29-07, 12:14 AM	A simple point, the problem that the LA system faces is that LA is build on so many different variables that it isn't funny. Let's look at stats for just a minute here. Unbalanced stats (in the players favor) in Savage species are listed as being worth a +1, but that's all, we have no guideline for total bonuses, just that certain bonuses and penalties are worth more than others in the final exchange. Is +4 str -2 dex +2con worth the same as +12 str +12dex +12con +8 int +8wis +8cha if all their other racial traits are identical? How much to racial traits factor into this? As I pointed out some are effectively mass buffs, giving the group fast healing or certain useful abilities at will. Others actually can harm those around them such as everyone within 10 feet taking 1 point of damage each round or perhaps hunger for something...shall we say dangerous like living flesh or blood (undead characters and some monstrous). Does the fact that the race is only good as a martial class factor into it's level adjustment, or that it's only a good caster or skill based character? If so is that a point on the balance of the classes rather than the race in question? I mean a minotaur makes a pretty good fighter or barbarian, to say nothing of the ToB classes or other martial options but I don't know of too many who plan to make a wizard out of one, should that be part of it too? Hitdice are actually the biggest problem on the list as far as a problem area that I see. And this is a problem, in many cases the HD are the offenders rather than the level adjustment. Maybe a policy like X number of hitdice removes 1 from the level adjustment so if a monster has 3X hitdice their LA listed is ignored and they are a 3X+1 Equivalent character. Or maybe we crop the HD, the problem comes in with monsters being built to face a party and certain monsters CAN cause major shifts, not just through stats either. Give a martial character fast healing or regeneration and suddenly the cleric or whatever healing class the party has (if any) is now using fewer spells and the group as a whole is getting a resource increase. And the other problem is a reasonable concern that PC races would get replaced without some type of LA system in place. The thing is this, PC races are built to where they are generally capable at anything. Dwarves are pretty much good anythings, though sorcerer and bard take a bit of a hit from the charisma loss they are fairly good at any of the others. Humans are generally good at anything, Elves aren't great tank style fighters but they an do other things. The problem comes out with monstrous races, while they might only be good at one thing, they are REALLY good at it. Huge stat bonuses, increases to reach, natural armor, special abilities, whatever it offers it could easily supplant the regular classes. An wizard can theoretically lose up to 3 levels and still access 9th level spells, a martial character (outside of TOB and a few supplimental classes) can usually handle a larger amount of level loss provided the payoff is good enough. Some might argue the RP aspect, that Trolls, Ogres and Medusas wouldn't get service in town...I would argue this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11439565&postcount=177). Not to mention the other problem, I'm going to use a troll as an example. It has scent, regeneration, reach, incredible strength and constitution, in short it's a fairly potent monster that would make a deadly martial character. Now, the weakness of fire and acid is still there, but a PC can buy items that give large resistances or even immunities to those materials. And with the idea of a 'speciesist' attacking them somewhere, would YOU rush something that is baseline strong enough to decimate a town that now has class levels and PC level wealth to buy weapons, armor and other items? I'd argue the biggest problem is simply how we should do LA and where we should draw the line. What makes a monster a difficult foe at level 6 can make a PC unstoppable at level 6. There are many issues that can come up, and mistakes are somewhat inevitable. Consider how much we argue about feats, spells, non LA PC races, and classes NOW, if it's hard for them to make those well, imagine trying to make a creature that non-classed is a challenging foe but can also exist as a PC race. Why do you think Polymorph, wildshape, and shapechange are so hated by many? If you think the LA problem is bad, look at my CR article in my sig. The CR system has so many moving parts that it screws up a fair amount, LA has as many, if not more, issues.
Mr.Waesel 03-29-07, 06:42 AM	I don't necessarily agree with the very idea of "we make monsters suck", but that's not the ORIGINAL idea behind LA. The original idea behind LA is to make powerful characters balanced. Nope. The idea is to actively discourage people from being monsters by making them suck. Also, in my book, Monsters should be rare because many times (such as trolls) they provide the group with abilities that are far beyond anything else that can achieve with regular characters Not true. Wizards can summon Succubi well before a player could normally be one, accessing all its abilities. As for you thinking monsters should be rare: You could maybe make them actually rare instea of making them suck, then. Have the PC's fight mostly humans, dwarves, elves and other humanoids because trolls are rare. Without skimming through the entire thread.. could you provide a post # or a link for said quote? I am a tad skeptical though. If the quote is after 2002 especially. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11824981&postcount=25
Argaud 03-29-07, 07:06 AM	A simple point, the problem that the LA system faces is that LA is build on so many different variables that it isn't funny. Let's look at stats for just a minute here. Unbalanced stats (in the players favor) in Savage species are listed as being worth a +1, but that's all, we have no guideline for total bonuses, just that certain bonuses and penalties are worth more than others in the final exchange. Is +4 str -2 dex +2con worth the same as +12 str +12dex +12con +8 int +8wis +8cha if all their other racial traits are identical? How much to racial traits factor into this? As I pointed out some are effectively mass buffs, giving the group fast healing or certain useful abilities at will. Others actually can harm those around them such as everyone within 10 feet taking 1 point of damage each round or perhaps hunger for something...shall we say dangerous like living flesh or blood (undead characters and some monstrous). <snip> If you think the LA problem is bad, look at my CR article in my sig. The CR system has so many moving parts that it screws up a fair amount, LA has as many, if not more, issues. Yes Well said. That is pretty much the problem. The official LAs and CR make me go WTF quite often. CRs less than LAs, but I suspect that is due to WotC being overly cautious assigning LAs to make the normal races more attractive (the logic behind this policy escapes me). The guidelines of LA assignment are quite vague too. The final rule seems to be “compare the critter with PCs of its level” which is often impossible when the creature in question has a dozen slas and supernatural abilities that no PC can have. For CR the guidelines are even more vague, and there seems to be mysterious unwritten rules involved (like lowering the CR of dragons a couple points so they can TPK adventuring groups often and easily).
Gemstone 03-29-07, 07:33 AM	Not true. Wizards can summon Succubi well before a player could normally be one, accessing all its abilities Which, barring epic, lasts at most for 20 rounds, without paying for it. And if they pay for it, its up to the DM as well to determine the cost, except for purely standard tasks. Also, binding a fiend to your will tend to create great oppertunities for DMs to create ploot hooks and revenge plans. So basicly, even though a wizard can summon it, he can't utilize all its abilities 24/7 as a succubus player can.
Leo 03-29-07, 09:19 AM	Ok, to judging eagle, or whatver he/she/it is called: My post in page 2 assumed you ignored ALL LA at all, including racial hit die. So let's please face my ogre mage wizard 20 against your human wizard 20 and see who wins. Second, you also fail to see the true extent of the rules. Infinite wishes grant you infinite money, and then you just sell all those 15000 items untill you have money enough to buy the gods themselves, or at least equip the entire party with the most uber equipment you can find, wich they should only get by level 20. Heck, with inifinite 15000 items you can buy infinite mercenaries and hireligns and do whatever you want. Oh, wait, you wouldn't even get to level 9. Because the entire party would have been killed by the cleric who has been doing that for centuries now and has infinite power. You're just a puppet in the hands of your DM. So, sucks to play in your campaigns:P
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-29-07, 10:36 AM	Having read the quote by the former game designer I have to say that I agree whole heartedly with its premise. I don't want to see trolls or gargoyles or anything else normally associated with dungeons as a PC race. I would be disappointed to see a campaign world that had fully giant PCs or where you could play an oustider (not planetouched). seeing a kingdom of trolls, demons or gargoyles may be great in a very specific campaign but not in a "generic" game world. Even if monster races had to buy their monster HD they would still become too prevelant as PC choices to be discountable. Like the man said, "it would have a ripple effect" and I like my waters calm.
Leress 03-29-07, 01:51 PM	Having read the quote by the former game designer I have to say that I agree whole heartedly with its premise. I don't want to see trolls or gargoyles or anything else normally associated with dungeons as a PC race. I would be disappointed to see a campaign world that had fully giant PCs or where you could play an oustider (not planetouched). seeing a kingdom of trolls, demons or gargoyles may be great in a very specific campaign but not in a "generic" game world. Even if monster races had to buy their monster HD they would still become too prevelant as PC choices to be discountable. Like the man said, "it would have a ripple effect" and I like my waters calm. Wait isn't that the same line of thinking that gave us in second edition ADnD demi humans with level limits. Creature don't need levels to form kingdoms. Nowhere does it say that only creatures with PC levels can make a kingdom. There are kingdoms of demons already they are in the abyss.
Judging Eagle 03-29-07, 02:14 PM	Ok, to judging eagle, or whatver he/she/it is called: My post in page 2 assumed you ignored ALL LA at all, including racial hit die. Wha-wha-what? Uhm no. You're confusing LA with HD; that have to be added in order to get the ECL of the character. I said, ignore LA and use CR + 1 as the 'new' ECL of a monster race. The system I proposed would be one where your monsters HD count as it's 'levels' in it's monster 'class'. Alternatively So, if you're a Bugbear, (CR 2), as a PC you're CR 3 (and should thus have 3 HD). The idea behind this all that 1 HD = 1 CR; so that taking a monster race of CR X really has you changing or replacing most of each monsterous creature's HD for either HD that make more sense (replace a Fire giants HD with full BaB HD that gives him giant progression saves; thus, you drop lots of HD that are excessive in a PC, your Saves approach normalcy, as does your HD and HP, and all that you actually have is high stats, giant progression of saves, full BaB and no actual class features for those HD. So, instead of gaining feats or rages; the player gained Size + 1; bonus str & con; some natural armour and vunrability to cold. Remember, I said that removing LA is part of the process that is needed to have a CR 8 Ogre Mage equal a CR 8 Deep Halfling Rogue, in terms of what either brings to the gaming table. The ogre mage brings at will flying and invisibility and large size and fast healing. The deep halfing brings, being able to sneak without being detectable with magic, more skills, more dungeoun-appropriate skills and actual sneak attack progression. So let's please face my ogre mage wizard 20 against your human wizard 20 and see who wins. Well, the Ogre Mage, as a CR 20 character, is only a 12th level caster. The Human is a 20th lvl caster as a CR 20 character. Like I said, no contest. Mostly b/c you posit this retort since you're confusing ECL with CR and you think that LA being ignored means that CR and HD are also ignored. Second, you also fail to see the true extent of the rules. Infinite wishes grant you infinite money, and then you just sell all those 15000 items untill you have money enough to buy the gods themselves, or at least equip the entire party with the most uber equipment you can find, wich they should only get by level 20. Heck, with inifinite 15000 items you can buy infinite mercenaries and hireligns and do whatever you want. Remember, everyone on the extraplanar levels considers 15,000 gp items to be wooden nickels. Anyone can really get them if they want to. Items that cost more than that are actually special. Since you can't get them fro gold or love. You have to sacrifice souls, engage in extraplanar quests, kill other powerful characters or monsters or sacrifice your own life force in order to get any item over 15,000 gp. Major Gods can make minor and major artifacts for ***** and giggles. Minor Gods can craft powerful magical items as their hobby. All Gods are able to corrupt any magical item into being whatever they want it to be. Which explains why heroes almost never atually destroy an evil artifact, and instead lock it up until either the Wytch-King gets his grubby hands on it, or some team of adventurers finds it and brings it to Pelor, Heironious, Moradin, Obad-Hai or one of their Avatars. So that said Diety (or their Avatar) can change the artifact into an item that works for them and their followers. Or, why do you think that there are 3 Robes of the Archmagi and 3 Tomes of the Alignments or 2 types of Outsider Magical Armour (Celestial Full Plate and Demon Armour) or multiple types of Alignment Weapon enchantments (Holy, Unholy, Aximatic, Chaotic)? You give the evil gear to evil NPCs, and then your PCs have to try to redeem, lock up or bury the item afterwards. Destroying such an item pisses off everyone in power, sicne even destroying a Book of Vile Darkness, means that there's one less Book of Exalted Deed that could exist if you gave the BoVD to a band of Solars to Redeem. Oh, wait, you wouldn't even get to level 9. Because the entire party would have been killed by the cleric who has been doing that for centuries now and has infinite power. You're just a puppet in the hands of your DM. The problem with that is that the Cleric wil spend all of their time in a personal Demi-Plane and use Astral Projection suicide attacks on their other high level spell caster enemies in order to gain more power. Level 9 PCs are chump-change, and it's only when they hit lvl 16 will they attract attention, since at that point they're on the cusp of becoming a threat to anyone that's mortal. Also, yes you remember that death in D&D is fast and brutally easy, but you seem to forget tha D&D also has almost inexpensive ressurection. You could literally craft Contingent True Ressurections on every party member and/or Contingent Plane Shifts to a place like Ysgard in the event of near-death by a PC, then a Contingent Planeshift and/or Teleport to a set location. As for being a puppet in the hands of the DM. As soon as a DM says that you can't do something when you want to do it, and didn't tell you so before you did it (i.e. make up houserules on the fly), you are already a puppet of the DM. If instead you tell the players to run things by you, and you work with them to find an equitable solution that allows you to change your view of the game, while also preventing the player from losing all of their newfound technique; then you're actually DMing well. So, sucks to play in your campaigns:P I'll say. I'm constantly writing up stuff that my PCs have yet to see, which pisses me off, b/c they were loving their commiting war crimes on Troglodytes that posed little to no challenge to them at all. When I pulled off the kid gloves and started to throw giant troglodytes, Trog clerics, using stardard trogs with the Swarm template (they were 7th lvl PCs, so they needed something to challenge them) and then started using demons that had been wandering about the Gnomish city the PCs were helping recapture the campaign came to an end as our group started looking at other campaign settings and game systems. I've seriously got stuff like: Awakened Badger Jester-Barbarians that ar the product of bored planes-hopping Druids; Metrosexual Half-Ogre Chain-Fighters; goblin subjects of the PCs; kobold slaves of the PCs; magic-trained and equipped troops that build trade depots for their globe-trekking commerce-mage master; two massive non-human species that war for dominion of longitudinal mountain ranges (retilianoids of all stripes and their Half-Dragon sorceror kings (I have no dragons in my games, they're 'gone') VS. every single type of Vermin or Vermin-Like creature); a goblinoid empire ruled by celestial bugbears, their hobgoblin beruercrats/military commanders; fiend-dealing deep gnomes and their grimlock and troglodyte slaves or enemies (I abolished illithids, too boring and overused, replaced them with Gnomes that trade with Devils and Yugoloths); removed all elves from all parts of the world (they still exist, but in self-imposed exile, or as the shadowy cabal that offers all sorts of beings as mercenaries; that the humans, dwarves and halflings hire to fight each other, or the reptilianoids or insects); removed all contact from civilized humans, dwarves and halflings with 'normal' monsters and have them all accustumed to fighting reptilianoids, insects and each other instead; made giants, savage humans and gypsy/monster-rider halflings live in the northern hemisphere and engage in nomadic tribal warfare (as well as skirmish with: the nomadic orcs from the plains and deserts to the south; the new 'civilised' colony of humans, dwarves and halfings near the shore; the monolithic Goblinoid empire, the northern borders of the Reptilianoid/Insect empires and the massed hordes of frost-ghouls that fight for their necromancer barons). Plus a shadowy trade city-state that is literally impossible to find, but affects trade everywhere. Of course, it's impossible to piece out how all of those groups fit on the global map from just a written or verbal explaination, but seeing as I don't let the players see the whole map (just the sections of where they are, or what the nearest cartographers have mapped) I don't see why I should post the map here. Afterall, a few of my players view these forums every now and again. My own problem is that while I as a DM and Player want to have the adventurers face level-appropriate challenges. At level 11, that can seriously be 4 (and up to 5 or 8) Herzrou Demons and potentially up to 16d10 (average: 80) Dretches versus 4 lvl 11 PCs. Which is only an Encoutner Level (EL) 15 encounter; which players should face at least 15% of the time according to the DMG's guide on 'Difficulty' (Page 49). Most of the other people in my gaming group would be fine killing Stock MM Bugbears from levels 2 to 10 though. Anyway, the best Gauge of what a creature's power level is, should be it's CR. The Troll PC is not ECL 11, unless he is also CR 11. Which means he can pick up 5 levels of Knight or Barbarian.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-29-07, 02:14 PM	Wait isn't that the same line of thinking that gave us in second edition ADnD demi humans with level limits. Creature don't need levels to form kingdoms. Nowhere does it say that only creatures with PC levels can make a kingdom. There are kingdoms of demons already they are in the abyss. And that is where they should stay. :D
Judging Eagle 03-29-07, 03:35 PM	And that is where they should stay. :D Wow. Lack of creativity much? You're seriously telling me that every power group in your campaign world is made up of Base Races? That can work; but that means that monsters won't really show up that often as enemy encounters. Unless all of your players decide that they are willing to not break down the 4th wall and question where all of the mosners come from if everyone lives in civilized nations of base races. There's really got to be more to your game than that. Either you're not revealing enough about how you run your game world and thus don't seem credible, or you're deliberatly being absurdist. B/c if you stand by that quote, you're seriously telling me that Hobgoblins don't engage in military campaigns of conquest to expand their numbers of slaves and farmlands.... (Hobgoblins are or could be classified as ancient Spartans, except that they engage in regular conquest instead of regualr slaughter of their slaves), Liches don't lead undead armies out of Moil and orcs only live underground in 10 foot by 10 foot rooms with one orc per room. Which is okay, but constantly bashing in doors gets boring. Then again, I've had players spend a good hour nagivating the labyrinthine tunnels of a Gnomish subway system to reach the city proper. Once they found the correct path, they activated the Tunnel-Travelling-Machine and keyed in the correct path to go from where they were, to where they needed to be.
Argaud 03-29-07, 03:37 PM	And that is where they should stay. :D On the other hand, I'd like to have more options. Maybe I want to play in a campaign where the main races are the centaurs, the pixies, the ogres, the beholders and the lizardmen. Why am I forced to to use the old humans, elves, dwarves and halflings to have balanced races? Which is even worse is that some books seem to have fair, balanced LAs, while others LAs are pretty crazy. It seems some of the WotC authors want to allow PCs to play any race they want, while others are virulently pro-classical humanoid, mercilessly punishing any player wanting to play something different.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-29-07, 04:14 PM	To Judging Eagle: I do have rampagin hordes of goblinoids, they tend to live in less hospitable areas as they are forced there by the PC races and don't have governments recognized by PC race kingdoms. actually one continent does have a small hobgoblin kingdom but they are LN not LE. There are a few orc lands as well. I have no demon continents, no forgotten dinosaur lands, no troll baronies. Monsters are just that, monsters and I like them kept that way. If one of my players absolutely had to play a non-standard or monstrous race he would pay the LA, pure and simple. To Argaud: I love options as much as the next guy, I just don't want to have to do the opposite of what you guys are implying. If LAs were made more managable then I would have to inflate them to keep them where I want them. Luckily the current system works for me so I desire to keep it where it is. Selfish I know but there you have it.
Judging Eagle 03-29-07, 04:42 PM	Ah, well, I never said that the 'monsterous' races had to be evil. Heck, a NG nation can have plenty of problems just from people within the same organizations competeing for more prestige or funding. Demon Continents could be interesting, but then there's always the question of "why haven't they beat us yet"; besides, they've got the infinite size of the Lower Planes as their living space....Hmm, that gives me an idea for re-arraging my camapign world's cosmology into a discernable form. "Re-ordering the Planes for ease of understanding" or "Let's get rid of the Wheel of Cosmology b/c it's a hard to instantly follow mechanic" The 4 Upper Planes are 'above' The Material Plane in the Middle (with the planes of Shadows and the Ethreal still overlapping with it) The 4 Elemental 'inner' planes on the 4 sides of the Material Plane The Astral Plane is between The Material, Elemental and the Upper/Lower planes. The 4 Lower Planes are below Acheron and Pandemonium exist far on either side of the Material Plane and it's 6 Nearer Planes (witht he Astral as the only near access Point) So, the cosmology, looks like a column...hmm, you could even declare it as the D&D equivalent of the Yggdrassil Tree; with the Upper planes as the Crown and upper branches; the Lower Planes as the Roots; the Material plane and the Shadow/Ethreal planes are the trunks wood, the elemental planes are the 'bark'; the Planes of War and Insanity are two large branches that jt out from opposite sides of the tree and the Astral Plane is the tree's sap. You can even draw it out and if you show it to someone they could easily figure out where the good guys are (the crown of the tree) and where the bad guys are (the roots); the trunk and bark is a bit more convoluted, but it could work. Forgotten Dinosaur lands are passe; you're better off hiding a base Race that you removed in such a place. Making a boring race, like Humans, 'exotic' is a challenge and will get you off of your mental butt. Any numb-nuts can manke Dinosaurs 'cool' and 'exotic'; I mean, they're bloody dinosaurs. As for Troll Baronies; even I don't think it's possible. I mean, they're trolls. A Troll Robber-Baron; yes. Since he was a PC at one point and now has hit the big time and is now an NPC. A barony made up of trolls, no. Unless all of you trolls are Half-Fiends or Fiendish and thus are a lot smarter and can organize themselves and don't need to eat as much or at all. Now I just came up with the idea of the Space-faring Fiendish Troll Pirates and their Assasin or Jester capatains. A land of fiendish Troll Samurai would also be interesting (I'd use the RoW Knight class instead, and thy use their Choose Foe ability to issue challenges in the middle of combat, and then they kill their target if they aren't attacked). In any case, the ECL system adds the LA of a Creature to the 'total' ECL, but ignores HD. ECL also adds HD, but ignores LA. Meaning, you're probably paying for something twice if you used ECL. CR on the other hand includes both special abilites, stats, size, movement modes [b]and[/i] HD. So, ECL should be equal to, if not almost the same as CR for most monsteous races. It's not though. The CR 11 Troll PC will always have less class HD than the CR 11 Troll NPC who picked up 5 levels of Barbarian. Meaning, that the PC Troll is not playing on the same power level as the PC Deep Dwarf Fighter, Deep Halfing Rogue or Grey Elf Wizard; who actually do have 11 levels in a class. That's really my concern with LAs; they break the rules of CR, which, while faulty; are more rigorously tested than ever LA was. [yes, this post is actually a direct example of how I often come up with my often wierd ideas. Someone else says something, and I start adding or changing things so that it works]
Argaud 03-29-07, 04:47 PM	Yeah, but then the CR 11 Troll PC will always have less class HD than the CR 11 Troll NPC who picked up 5 levels of Barbarian. Meaning, that the PC Troll is not playing on the same power level as the PC Deep Dwarf Fighter, Deep Halfing Rogue or Grey Elf Wizard. That's really my concern with LAs; they break the rules of CR, which, while faulty; are more rigorously tested than ever LA was. CR is not the same than ECL, as it has been explained numerous times, here and elsewhere. A troll with 5 levels of barbarian is far, far stronger than any normal LA+0 race with 11 levels of barbarian. Run some numbers if you don't believe me. The troll is so superior in everything to the humanoid barbarian that it is ridiculous.
Kresalak 03-29-07, 04:57 PM	To Judging Eagle: I do have rampagin hordes of goblinoids, they tend to live in less hospitable areas as they are forced there by the PC races and don't have governments recognized by PC race kingdoms. actually one continent does have a small hobgoblin kingdom but they are LN not LE. There are a few orc lands as well. I have no demon continents, no forgotten dinosaur lands, no troll baronies. Monsters are just that, monsters and I like them kept that way. If one of my players absolutely had to play a non-standard or monstrous race he would pay the LA, pure and simple. So your argument is "I don't want my players to deviate from my world view, therefore, no one should deviate from my world view"?
Gemstone 03-29-07, 06:02 PM	So your argument is "I don't want my players to deviate from my world view, therefore, no one should deviate from my world view"? No, his argument is that monsters should remain monsters because that's what the game is about.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-29-07, 06:50 PM	No, his argument is that monsters should remain monsters because that's what the game is about. No offense, but isn't creating a way to play monsters based on the desires of people who don't want to play monsters a bad idea?
Argaud 03-29-07, 06:56 PM	No, his argument is that monsters should remain monsters because that's what the game is about. What is a monster? Is a pixie a monster? Is an astral deva more monstrous than a dwarf? What about a human half-dragon?
Gemstone 03-29-07, 07:05 PM	No offense, but isn't creating a way to play monsters based on the desires of people who don't want to play monsters a bad idea? I didn't really argue anything, I just tried to clarify :)
DaidojiTaidoru 03-29-07, 07:20 PM	I didn't really argue anything, I just tried to clarify :) I suspected but was unsure. Consider my statement directed solely to the person who thought up the idea in the first place.
Leo 03-30-07, 07:11 AM	I don't know what Judging eagle is complaining about then. All you need to do is reach lv9, then buy enough stuff untill you have all the powers of the monster you wanna be. Also, LA and CR becomes completely irrelevant. You have infinite money, and with it comes infinite power. Also, it's funny he uses gods as comparisons. So, you're claiming that by lv9, the Pc's shall be god-like. What will they be when they reach lv20? Did you even bother to notice that by lv9 the pary shouldbe geting only 4500 gold per combat? Or that the Dm doesn't need tohouse rule at all? Planar ally clearly says there is no certainity that the monster you call will actually come. And with millions of high level casters all around the planes calling efreetis, well, why would they bother to get time for a lousy lv9 party?
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-30-07, 08:04 AM	No, his argument is that monsters should remain monsters because that's what the game is about. That is exactly it. :) I think they added rules for playing monsters so that the rare or unusual occurance of a monstrous adventurer could happen or so that the DM could, if he so desired, allow monsters as pc races without disrupting the normal game dynamic. So is the current complaint something along the lines of: "Why bother giving us the option if it is going to be so subpar that players will not use it?" To that, if it is what it is, I respond with a "define subpar." My 4 monster party is doing great in the Dungeon magazine adventure I am pacing them through. :D
skio 03-30-07, 09:28 AM	I am the OP. I left checking the thread a week ago, when it became a 'succubus: sucks or rocks?' thread. Yet I come back to re-state my question. I do not have a problem with LAs and racial HDs when used to convert MONSTERS into PCs. Neither with the rules of SS themselves. What I trying to say is that you CANNOT USE THESE RULES TO JUDGE RACES DESIGNED AS PCs FROM THE BEGGINING! There's a vast difference between a monster and a race. A monster's statistics represent a typical member of its kind, including possible training and full-grown abilities. A race represents a typical member (well, slightly stronger, because he is an adventurer) just beyong adulthood and without any training (class levels are the training). There is also a big difference between converting a monster to a PC race and creating the same race from scratch with the intention of using him as a standard race. WotC knows this well. Check the Half-Ogre in the SS: +6 Str, +2 Con, -1 Int, -1 Dex, -1 Cha Darkvision 60ft + 4 natural armour Large -> reach 10ft, speed 30ft Giant Blood LA +1 According to SS, pages 11-12: each 5ft of reach beyond 5 is worth a +1 LA a natural armour bonus is worth a +1 LA for the first 5 points unbalanced (according to the DMG) ability modifiers also impose a LA That is, the half-ogre is worth AT LEAST +3 LA! Or, should we say, it WOULD worth +3 if it was a monster and you tried to convert it into a PC race. But it is designed as a race from the beginning, so other rules seem to apply. Would you play this race with a +3 LA? Concluding, I want to state again that LA do well the job they were designed for, conversion of monsters to characters. But when designing a new race, they have to be changed, as they do not give playable results. And before some of you remind me of Rule 0, my rant is not about the rules themselves. Is about those that by using the rules without thinking try to impose LAs to perfectly balanced races seen in this forum. Thanks and sorry
Argaud 03-30-07, 09:48 AM	That is, the half-ogre is worth AT LEAST +3 LA! Or, should we say, it WOULD worth +3 if it was a monster and you tried to convert it into a PC race. But it is designed as a race from the beginning, so other rules seem to apply. Would you play this race with a +3 LA? Concluding, I want to state again that LA do well the job they were designed for, conversion of monsters to characters. But when designing a new race, they have to be changed, as they do not give playable results. The Half-ogre in SS was clearly misscalculated. They reviewed the race in (fully 3.5 book) Races of Destiny and set it to +2LA. Regardless, as it is explained in SS, the guidelines to calculate LA are just guidelines, and after calculating the LA using the guidelines it is mentioned the race/template needs to go through an "acid test" with comparable characters of the LA mentioned. They use the ogre as an example. The ogre is LA +3 according to the guidelines (unbalanced abilities + large size + big NA). But after checking a level 1 barbarian ogre capabilities, they conclude that they are closer to a level 7 human barbarian than a level 8 human barbarian, so they leave the ogre at LA + 2. This is interesting, since the real capabilities of a level 7 barbarian -might- be campaign-dependant if some houserules are applied. For instance, in the "infinite wishes campaign" mentioned in this tread, any monster and character needs to be compared to a level 9 cleric with infinite wishes if the LA would put him over ECL 9. This means, of course, that for that game level 250 fighter balors with 500 in all the abilities, and 300 HD beholders are perfectly valid ECL 9 characters, and actually underpowered, since they don't have access to infinite wishes. :rolleyes:
skio 03-30-07, 10:11 AM	Regardless, as it is explained in SS, the guidelines to calculate LA are just guidelines, and after calculating the LA using the guidelines it is mentioned the race/template needs to go through an "acid test" with comparable characters of the LA mentioned. They use the ogre as an example. The ogre is LA +3 according to the guidelines (unbalanced abilities + large size + big NA). But after checking a level 1 barbarian ogre capabilities, they conclude that they are closer to a level 7 human barbarian than a level 8 human barbarian, so they leave the ogre at LA + 2. Exaclty. So, you cannot judge a race only with the rules. You must first test it to determine its role and power in a party. Then why some people persist to do this?
runestar 03-30-07, 10:24 AM	The ogre is LA +3 according to the guidelines (unbalanced abilities + large size + big NA). But after checking a level 1 barbarian ogre capabilities, they conclude that they are closer to a level 7 human barbarian than a level 8 human barbarian, so they leave the ogre at LA + 2. There are quite a few ways of reviewing this. One could be that the LAs were simply fractional LAs rounded up(so 1+1+1 would actually be lesser than 3). There is also the "racial HD lowers LA" theory, though barring a few specific examples, I don't see this being practiced.:P
NineInchNall 03-30-07, 10:54 AM	[QUOTE=Argaud;11927250]CR is not the same than ECL, as it has been explained numerous times, here and elsewhere. [QUOTE] Ya know, I've never seen an explanation for this hypothesis that didn't involve some hand waving and repetition of the phrases, "more valuable over the course of a campaign," and, "CR only measures effectiveness in a given combat." I asked Sean Reynolds about it and got a similar response without justification of how the natural attack routine, which is already figured into CR, needs to be counted and paid for again via LA. Do you have any links to a more in depth discussion of this difference?
Archangel62 03-30-07, 01:39 PM	Ya know, I've never seen an explanation for this hypothesis that didn't involve some hand waving and repetition of the phrases, "more valuable over the course of a campaign," and, "CR only measures effectiveness in a given combat." I asked Sean Reynolds about it and got a similar response without justification of how the natural attack routine, which is already figured into CR, needs to be counted and paid for again via LA. Do you have any links to a more in depth discussion of this difference? Ghosts are a decent example. Ethereal foes are a threat to a party, but at the same level that ghosts are a proper Cr a player with constant ethereal abilities can just ignore traps, walls, and numerous enemies of that level.
Ectoplasmoid 03-30-07, 03:07 PM	I think the problem is that the relative utility of monster abilites doesn't matter if they're pathetic in combat. For instance, Illithids make great characters for long-term play. Everything from Suggestion to Astral Projection to Detect Thoughts is really useful for the given adventuring party. But in any given encounter, the Illithid is hard-pressed to do well. The most feared ability is Mind Blast. Let's have, for example, an 18 CHA (24 with Racial adjustments) Illithid with a +6 cloak, and +2 from levels (so 32 in total) and hell, let's add in Ability Focus (Mind Blast). That's 10+4(HD/2)+2(AF)+(32-10)/2=DC 27 at level 15. Compare to the Human Wizard, slinging say Polymorph Any Object, at 26 Int. So 10+8+8=26. Oh, look, the flayer is winning! Well, the flayer is spending a feat. So as soon as the Wizard takes SF (Trans) they're tied. But wait! The wizard has...8 more feats than the illithid, more HD, better saves, more skill points, and a whole library of other spells to cast. So the Illithid is outgunned and outclassed. You're better off playing a Wiz15 and spending all your feats on Illithid Heritage. Really, the only way to save a monster these days is to take something like Illithid Savant, which brings the 20th-level Illithid almost back to par with the 20th-level wizard. LA, especially for more powerful races, is broken.
NineInchNall 03-30-07, 03:08 PM	So? So he can bypass traps. So what? The rest of his party can't become ethereal, so the ability becomes mostly a method of saving his own skin or going on solo missions. In combat a 1hd ghost is about on par with a normal fourth* level PC. Really. Templates are rather hard to judge, though, since their impact on CR is rather dependent upon the base creature used. The ghost template is poorly CRed to begin with, due to the variability of its special attacks. I'm more interested in monsters that don't have any significant special abilties but still have an ECL much greater than their CR. Fire giants, for instance, are CR 10 and have an ECL of 19. That's nutty. *I say fourth because of the difference between monster wealth and PC wealth.
Kresalak 03-30-07, 03:20 PM	At level 15, a Wizard will have used PoA to become a Gold Dragon or a Sarrukh and have 30 base Intelligence. Plus 4 from levels, 5 Inherent, and 6 from an item, he has 45 Intelligence, and a DC of 27+spell level, which is 35 for Polymorph Any Object.
NineInchNall 03-30-07, 03:40 PM	Um ... I don't think that PaO can turn someone into a 30 Int dragon. That's some 23 HD over the cap, I believe.
Kresalak 03-30-07, 03:51 PM	PaO doesn't have any limits.
Ectoplasmoid 03-30-07, 04:12 PM	That just proves my point further. That LAs are broken. Let's say, for argument's sake, we scaled the Illthid down to 6LA/4HD, and kludged it by switching Plane Shift to 2/Day and Astral Projection to 1/week. Then, the illithid has 1/1/4 saves, +2 Str +4 Dex +2 Con +8 Int +6 Wis +6 Cha, Tentacles, +3 Natural Armor and the Mind Blast, Charm, Dominate, Suggestion, Levitate, and Detect Thoughts SLAs. That's strong, especially at will, but not too strong, given that the level 8 wizard can pick up all those abilites, plus more, and isn't screwed the first time he sees a ghoul. The flayer's abilites serve to compensate for the lost skill points and saving throws, and it's basically even. Heck, it'd be close even at 4LA/4HD.
NineInchNall 03-30-07, 04:38 PM	You could also try giving it 10 HD and no level adjustment. Just set the BAB and base saves to where you think they should be and bam!
NineInchNall 03-30-07, 04:40 PM	PaO doesn't have any limits. I'm pretty sure PaO inherits the 15HD cap from polymorph, as it's not specifically overridden in the spell description the way it is in draconic polymorph and shapechange.
Argaud 03-30-07, 04:47 PM	At level 15, a Wizard will have used PoA to become a Gold Dragon or a Sarrukh and have 30 base Intelligence. Plus 4 from levels, 5 Inherent, and 6 from an item, he has 45 Intelligence, and a DC of 27+spell level, which is 35 for Polymorph Any Object. PAO has exactly the same limitations than Polymorph ("This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another"). So the limit is 15HD creatures. Edit: so NineInchNall is correct.
Kresalak 03-30-07, 05:18 PM	I'm pretty sure PaO inherits the 15HD cap from polymorph, as it's not specifically overridden in the spell description the way it is in draconic polymorph and shapechange. It does say that, but then it goes on to say how it can do anything. lulz i r reference (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=34)
NineInchNall 03-30-07, 05:54 PM	That proves nothing, Kres. Draco's argument was much more credible considering the evidence we have in the form of the old polymorph articles and the FAQ.
Argaud 03-30-07, 06:37 PM	That proves nothing, Kres. Draco's argument was much more credible considering the evidence we have in the form of the old polymorph articles and the FAQ. And that Wildshape was (somewhat) based in Polymorph does not mean PAO is based in Wildshape. Faulty logic there. Not that it is even related anymore since they changed Wildshape to behave like Change Shape (except not quite... actually, not really... er... you know what I mean, yes?).
runestar 03-30-07, 08:15 PM	It does say that, but then it goes on to say how it can do anything. You are right. It can do anything, within certain delineated boundaries...;)
Arem_K 03-30-07, 11:12 PM	In the description of PaO, it notes that it can turn a shrew into a manticore. That seems to indicate that the HD limits are no longer there, unless the shrew is a 6HD creature.
Kresalak 03-30-07, 11:15 PM	The shrew is, in fact, a 6-1 HD creature.
Archangel62 03-30-07, 11:23 PM	So? So he can bypass traps. So what? The rest of his party can't become ethereal, so the ability becomes mostly a method of saving his own skin or going on solo missions. In combat a 1hd ghost is about on par with a normal fourth* level PC. [/size] Except the ghost only has a 50/50 chance of being hit WITH magic weapons. Most early foes can't touch them while they can harm their foes. Malevolence is another big one, being able to possess the physically powerful enemy and have that body for a while. The ghost can also circumvent ANY obstacle, no traps, no walls, and near invisibility. A ghost can scout any area, can attack from ANY angle, and is nigh indestructable until the party reaches mid to high levels. The problem is the context of the abilities for a PC.
Arem_K 03-30-07, 11:34 PM	The shrew is, in fact, a 6-1 HD creature. I am not entirely sure what your notation means there, but I think you just said a shrew is a 6HD creature. That surprises me, because I always thought the shrew was referring to this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrew)
Kresalak 03-31-07, 12:43 PM	6 raised to the power of negative one, or 1/6.
bitnine 03-31-07, 01:33 PM	Me, I'm a passive aggressive DM. I want to control the sort of things that my players can play, but I don't really have the stones to set boundaries for my campaign and campaign world. So I let them play whatever they want and work with the passive aggressive principle of "banning by suckage." That is, I make sure every option that I don't personally approve up will end up being suboptimal, frustrating, and horrible for the player trying to pursue it. If nothing else, I just make sure that events transpire and conspire to ensure the death or great misfortune of that character, from townsfolk reactions to a number of other sly pieces. Although, a few games ago I did sort of lose it and said what was on my mind. A player had been getting on my case about how frustrated they were with how the game was treating their ogre character. I think I said something like, "Shut your mouth. How dare you complain after trying to play a monster! Monsters are supposed to be rare and special, not something you see on every street corner, and definitely not something that you get to play. Well, you know what? Yeah, you have the option of playing an ogre. And you also get to suck and die. And that is how the game is supposed to work. Soon enough you'll learn your place, stop trying to play silly things like ogres and monsters will get to remain special. Now sit down. I've still got to roll the attack rolls for these 70 angry commoners." Therefore, I <3 the LA system.
WayneTheGame 03-31-07, 01:44 PM	Good one, bitnine. I almost thought you were serious until I got to that last part. :P :D
Leo 03-31-07, 04:26 PM	So, from all the posts I read here, the only way LA is "playable" is if it is negative? Since aparently monster levels are always weaker than class levels, you can't give yourself the luxury of losing a single class level. However, you also want to have all those juicy monster abilities. Well, that means you have to give them NEGATIVE la. The Tarrasque for example....48 hit die, plus lots of cool abilities, wich could justifiy a very high LA... Yet even a 48 lv character will wipe the floor with the Tarrasque any day. One thing I saw in another thread may be the solution: Speak with your Dm and make a watered watered watered down version of the monster you wanna play, like +2 something, -2 other thing, then some skill/magic/proefciency boosts, counts as a 0 level character so you can take class levels whitout trouble, and still keep the cool aspect.
Judging Eagle 03-31-07, 04:52 PM	No, don't do that. Make them pay in CR and adjust the HD completely if you have to, but don't impose negative LA. Ever. At all. I will kill you if you do. Mostly b/c people who 'want' to play a minotaur, want to actually 'be' a minotaur and 'can't' graps what it means to lose class levels. Which is fine, just let the play a minotaur that's the same CR as the other PCs. --------- LA vs CR post, that I didn't post right away. CR is not the same than ECL, as it has been explained numerous times, here and elsewhere. C'mon Preacher! Preach louder to the choir! I have already said and proved that CR =/= ECL. What I'm saying is this: 1. A Deep Dwarf Barbarian 5/Fighter 2/Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 2/Frenzied Bezerker 2 is an appropriate CR 12 creature that can actually have a chance of taking on a CR 12 creature when his party meets up with their 15% of the time encoutners that are made up of 4 CR 12 creatures. 2. A Troll Barbarian 1 is not an appropriate CR 12 Creature (but is apparently to the ECL tables) and cannot deal with CR 12 encounters on it's own, nor can it assist its allies in defeating such an encounter. 2. A Troll Barbarian 6 is a CR 12 Creature and has a chance of helping his party deal with 4 CR 12 Creatures. Maybe. The Deep Dwarf has about the same Str as the Troll (15 + 4 Gear + 3 levels is 22 compared the Trolls 23); before raging. I'm not including Frenzy, which is completely controllable by burning a feat on Wrathful Rage btw, or by having will saves so low that a Calm Emotions from a fellow PC will stop your fenzy. Edit: Okay, I'm a dick. I am going to include the effects of Frenzy. That's +6 more Str and Supreme Cleave there. When Raging, the Deep Dwarf peaks out at around 40 (+15 Mod) str compared the Raging Trolls 27 Str (+8 Mod) and will definately be dealing a lot more damage with his claws than the troll will. Again, class levels trump Hit Dice. Comparing their To-Hit. The Troll has +15 and +10 on it's Claws and Bites; or +17 and +12 when Raging. So, 2 attacks at +17 and one at +12. The DD Bear-Barb has a solid +12 BaB (the Troll only has +9) and an other +15 from str. So, 3 Attacks at +27. Yup, I'm definately seeing the Troll having better to-hit here. Wait, can you guys show me how the Troll overpowes the Dwarf Barbarian's combat ability here? Because I'm not seeing it at all. Comparing HP: Well, now the Trolls obviously higher 23 (27 with an item, 28 with a level) Con will be in full swing. 6d8+ 6d12 + 108 = 59.5 + 108 = ~167 HP Dwarf HP [Con 14 (16 since it's a Dwarf) + 4 item = 20 7D12 +2d10 + 2d8 + 60 = (12 + 36) + (11) + (9) + 60 = 128 Ok, so we're seeing a difference here, 39 more HP, that's rad. I mean, holy ****, that's one more attack that the Troll couls stand up to. But not an issue, the Frenzied Zerker Bear Warrior Deep Dwarf Barb is drastically outdamaging the Troll Barb 6, so who cares if the Troll doesn't die as easy? Seriously, I could pit the two characters against each other to prove their worth to the other party members and the Dwarf will almost always kill the Troll. He just needs to have a weapon that does Fire/Acid damage (oh noes! the lvl 12 PCs hab +2 weaponz! Impossamable!) or a 10 gp flask of Acid. And since the Dwarf picked up Righteous Wrath, he might even be scaring the Troll and he won't have his Frenzy give him any penalties. A troll with 5 levels of barbarian is far, far stronger than any normal LA+0 race with 11 levels of barbarian. Run some numbers if you don't believe me. The troll is so superior in everything to the humanoid barbarian that it is ridiculous. Hmm, yup. You're right. Except, you're not. The numbers say otherwise. Did you even run any numbers man? I've seriously tried making CR X creatures into PCs of the same CR +1 more than once, and almost everytime a straight LA +0 race with a good build will do the same job better. I've seen Nightwalkers, Wartroll Barbarian/Frenzied berzerkers, Astral Stalker Rogue/Shadowdancers and Phasm/Warshaper/Master of Many forms. All of them were CR 17 creatures used as lvl 17 characters and while they were cool to play, they weren't amazing. They all paled compared to a straight wizard or even an archivst. Let alone a Wizard/Seeker of the Lost Secrets/Master of Snake Mountain or an Archivist/Divine Oracle/Lore Master/Sacred Exorcist/Radiant Servant; both of whom were either fellow party members of the above monsterous PCs or used the above as their cohorts. There may be a few wierd exceptions, like, say a Runehound with a pile of Int boosting gear that turns into an insanse sensory rogue build that acts like the party Radar with it's Blindsight and Tremorsense, but that's an exception. You should seriously be showing me the Races that actually are hot **** if you build a creautre as something with a CR of X and just dump the concept of ECL and LA. Ethergaunts may be pretty hot stuff; but they're still a bit behind spellcasting due to racial HD. That would have been a better example than the troll who is 10 to 15 points behind the Dwarf in terms of To-Hit. Which translates into +20 to +30 bonus damage per attack; in 3 attacks that's +60 to +90 damage. That's just talking PA, his higher str alone will deal more damage. In any case, players should use PCs that are the same CR and get rid of the dumb as bricks ECL system with it's evne stupider LA element. DMs shouldn't mind since their players are actively boning themselves to be cool any time that they aren't taking a HD of a class and instead took racial HD. What everyone seems to forget is that, given the chance, certain people will play something stupid like a Were-Tiger ranger; in a group with a super optimized Deep Dwarf Barbarian 4/Fighter 2/Frenzied Berzerker 6/Bear Warrior1 /Warshaper 4 and a Grey Elf Wizard 7/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Arcane Magus 10. There's really no reason to be extra mean to them when they've made the consiece effort to not be the most powerful party member. Also having the idea that different PCs should be different CRs is dumb, since the players that are good at reading/understanding the rules will really be 1 to 4 CRs higher than what would be expected/normal, while the players weaker with reading/understanding the rules will not and may be as much as the expected CR -1 or -3. Unless, the pro-ECL people believe that the Wizard should always beat the fighter at everything, even fighting? At which point, I throw my hands up in the air, since any game where I'm the only person doing cool stuff gets boring. Being a poweramer in a group where few people make effective or appropriate choices is annoying since I'm supposed to save their ass instead of being able to have a good-natured competition to see who kicks the most ass. In other words, I want to play "Dungeouns and Dragons: A game of heroic fantasy", not "Dungeons and Dragons: I kick ass and you're my cohorts", b/c I could play that game on the computer. Also, on a side note: I'd be willing to play a were-tiger, b/c that sounds cool and I could easily play the lazy tiger who you don't want to get mad or he'll eat your face, but I'm not really sure if they suck or not (seriously, I leave reading the monster manuals for 'fun' to an other guy in my gaming group). So I play a smart character who takes levels in batman build to make sure the rest of the party doesn't die. When our group started using the Races of War supplement, I played a RoW barbarian, since we had upteen UMD core rogues and like 3 core Druids with giant ape animal companions. All I had to do was move around and hit ****, which was very calming. Since everyone else played an effective character, I didn't have to play a super-effective one to make up for their lack of ability.
Kresalak 03-31-07, 05:09 PM	ECL 11 Troll vs 11th level Wizard Meet Bozo the Wizard, who always wanted to be a troll. Bozo Polymorphs into a troll, giving him the stats of a troll. He also has a BAB of +5 from being 11th level. He has 95 hp. Our troll friend has a BAB of +4, and stats that are at most 8 points higher than Bozo's. So he nets, at best, an attack bonus three higher than Bozo the Wizard. He also has less hp than Bozo, having, at best (18 in Con, total 30) 90.5 hp-which is less than Bozo. Oh noes! He has an attack bonus three higher and does more damage with his higher strength! Woe is-wait. His attack bonus is three higher than a Wizard's. The Wizard hasn't even buffed himself beyond Polymorphing into a Troll, which isn't even a good choice. Bozo could be an 11 headed Hydra, and next level he can turn into a War Troll. The ECL 11 Troll is literally worse at fighting than an 11th level Wizard.
Argaud 03-31-07, 05:44 PM	The Deep Dwarf has about the same Str as the Troll (15 + 4 Gear + 3 levels is 22 compared the Trolls 23); before raging. I'm not including Frenzy, which is completely controllable by burning a feat on Wrathful Rage btw, or by having will saves so low that a Calm Emotions from a fellow PC will stop your fenzy. Edit: Okay, I'm a dick. I am going to include the effects of Frenzy. That's +6 more Str and Supreme Cleave there. Woah. How is the Dwarf gets elite stats and gear and the troll doesn't? Aren't they both adventurers. Lets recalculate the troll strength using the real rules, okay? Base 15 + 12 race + 4 gear = 31. That is 9 points over the dwarf! If you give him 6 levels of barbarian, instead of just 1, that is 33 strength. 11 points over the dwarf. Comparing their To-Hit. The Troll has +15 and +10 on it's Claws and Bites; or +17 and +12 when Raging. So, 2 attacks at +17 and one at +12. The DD Bear-Barb has a solid +12 BaB (the Troll only has +9) and an other +15 from str. So, 3 Attacks at +27. Yup, I'm definately seeing the Troll having better to-hit here. Wait, can you guys show me how the Troll overpowes the Dwarf Barbarian's combat ability here? Because I'm not seeing it at all. Wrong again. The braindead frenzing dwarf might be attacking with his bare hands as a mindless bear, but the troll is just raging. He will be using weapons, magical weapons, and will have a secondary bite attack whose damage will be negligible compared with the 3d6+alot that does his greatsword, which in top of more damage, will be getting through DR (which the bearwarrior can't, because bearwarrior is a class that sucks pretty badly). Moreover the barbarian troll will be wearing mithril fullplate and backed by his +5 natural armor will have an AC like 15 points better than the little berserker bear. Comparing HP: Well, now the Trolls obviously higher 23 (27 with an item, 28 with a level) Con will be in full swing. 6d8+ 6d12 + 108 = 59.5 + 108 = ~167 HP Dwarf HP [Con 14 (16 since it's a Dwarf) + 4 item = 20 7D12 +2d10 + 2d8 + 60 = (12 + 36) + (11) + (9) + 60 = 128 Ok, so we're seeing a difference here, 39 more HP, that's rad. I mean, holy ****, that's one more attack that the Troll couls stand up to. Except with his vastly superior AC the troll is getting hit much less. Moreover he is taking subdual damage from virtually all attacks, and regenerating pretty quickly. Meanwhile the dwarf there is still several levels away from the deathless frenzy. So the dwarf dies. A lot. The troll rarely falls, and when he does, he regenerates for a few rounds and stands up again. But not an issue, the Frenzied Zerker Bear Warrior Deep Dwarf Barb is drastically outdamaging the Troll Barb 6, so who cares if the Troll doesn't die as easy? Seriously, I could pit the two characters against each other to prove their worth to the other party members and the Dwarf will almost always kill the Troll. He just needs to have a weapon that does Fire/Acid damage (oh noes! the lvl 12 PCs hab +2 weaponz! Impossamable!) or a 10 gp flask of Acid. And since the Dwarf picked up Righteous Wrath, he might even be scaring the Troll and he won't have his Frenzy give him any penalties. Go ahead, do not forget gear. You will see how the massively better armored troll rips the bear-dwarf to little pieces even thought he gets a +4 to AC from fighting a giant. Now consider what that braindead dwarf can do against a CR11 or 12 enemy. Hmm, yup. You're right. Except, you're not. The numbers say otherwise. Did you even run any numbers man? Yes. Your numbers are completely false. You are either being falacious or you have no idea of how to build a competent warrior. Please, post the whole build of your berserker dwarf. Whole. Including the stuff you conveniently forgot to mention, like the AC. Then I will post a level 6 troll, fully geared too, and everybody will see how pathetic is your dwarf in comparison.
skio 03-31-07, 06:46 PM	In other words, I want to play "Dungeouns and Dragons: A game of heroic fantasy", not "Dungeons and Dragons: I kick ass and you're my cohorts", b/c I could play that game on the computer. Can I sig this?
Judging Eagle 03-31-07, 06:52 PM	Can I sig this? Sure, knock yourself out. I'll stat out the Dumb fighting dwarf Agraud gimme, a few hours or the weekend. I've gotta get my game on tomorrow.
runestar 03-31-07, 09:41 PM	ECL 11 Troll vs 11th level Wizard First off, a PC troll will have superior stats to a polymorphed wizard. He also does not get regeneration. Second, I don't think you can't go around assigning ECLs based off what a wizard can duplicate with polymorph. You only get so many uses of polymorph each day. A monstrous PC can access all its abilities 24/7. It is a viable substitute, but far from being perfect.:)
Judging Eagle 03-31-07, 10:37 PM	First off, a PC troll will have superior stats to a polymorphed wizard. He also does not get regeneration. Second, I don't think you can't go around assigning ECLs based off what a wizard can duplicate with polymorph. You only get so many uses of polymorph each day. A monstrous PC can access all its abilities 24/7. It is a viable substitute, but far from being perfect.:) Persistant Spell. The wizard can enter Sacred Exorcist, pick up turning, Detect Evil at will and yeah. War Troll form all the bloody time. Which trumps Troll form. But casters can ropingingi anything that isn't. So that's moot. Also, Agaurd, you have to use the Races of War method of converting powerful races into PC usable races. Converting Monsters Into Characters: Method 1: The Easy Way Assume that a monster is a character of its CR+1(modified if it i a monster with the [Awesome] tag), and that its stat modifiers are derived from the assumption that the base monster was built using the Elite Array (highest monster stat – highest elite stat, then repeat for next lowest, etc). For level-dependant effects like skill point maxes, feat prereqs, etc, use the monster’s CR+1. Round ability stat mods down to nearest multiple of 2(negative mods up to multiple of 2), and CRs down to nearest whole number. The nice part of this method is that it is easy, fast, and you can get to playing a monster immediately without as lot of DM intervention or paperwork. The downside is that you might get an underpowered or overpowered monster character if you are not careful (like you forgot that Dragons are actually CRed two less than they should be, or that Sprites are unplayable). Here’s two examples: 1. Minotaur. Its Base CR is 4, and add +1 for being a PC. Its stat mods are (monster-elite array) Str 19-15=+4, Con 15-14=+0(rounded down) Dex 10-13=-2 (rounded) Wis 10-12= -2 Int 10, Cha 8-10= -2 Int 8-7=+0, for a total of +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2, Cha -2 Wis, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s a level 5 PC with skill rank maxes of 8 and 6 monster HD. Frankly, it's a warrior class with a little bit of punch from natural armor, small stat mods from its size, and some fun but not good noncombat abilities. It's nothing to write home about as a 5th level character, and that's much more reasonable than the ECL 8 the MM would have you play it at. 2. Succubus: CR 7, +1 for being a PC. Stat mods equal Cha 26-15=+10(rounded), Int 16-14=+2, Wis 14-13=+0(rounded), Str 13- 12=+2, Con 12- 10= +2, Dex 12-8=+4 for a +10 Cha, +2 Int, +2 Str, +2 Con, +4 Dex. It’s an 8th level character who is almost as good as a Warlock of its level. Generally, it’s a far better 8th level character than the than the ECL 14 the MM would have you pay. The fact that its abilities will never grow in power is offset by the fact that it has a high Cha, and so good DCs on its spell-likes. So, the Troll's stat mods are his Monster stats, subratacted by the Elite array, highest creature stat subtracted by the highest remaining value in the array. So: Str 23 - 15 = +8 Dex 14 -13 = +1 (rounds down to) +0 Con 23 -14 = +9 (rounds down to) +8 Int 6 -10 = -4 Wis 9 -12 = -3 (rounds up to) -2 Cha 6 -8 = -2 So: Str +8, Con +8, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2 It's (new) CR as a PC is 5 + 1 or CR 6; and it's HD is 6 as well; making it a good fit. It's tougher than most other classes, but then lvl 6 is more reasonable for a 6th lvl melee PC than the 11th you have to pay normally. It's starting HD have it losing attacks if it uses weapons over a normal fighter, but it can use it's naturals until it's got a 2nd attack or 3rd from BaB, or just get gear that beefs up nat attacks and rely on rending for bonus damage. The regen is not common, but it's not unique either, the Feral template throws out Fast Healing (which some consider better since subdual or lethal doesn't matter if your rendered unconsious) and there are at least two PrCs that also hand out fast healing (Nature's Warrior, War Shaper and they just in the same book, but Fast Healing's always been a thing for melee users to pick up anyway). That Nat armour's nice as well, but better can also be achieved if the player is willing to pay 18k to achieve +8 nat armour via a Alter Self 24/hr item. For some reason the monster has 90 feet of darkvision, while the ECL variant has 60 feet; which is dumb. Since +0 LA races like Deep Dwarves get 90 feet of Darkvision and +1 extra on the same saves as a Dwarf gets with only Light blindness (-1 to hit, spot, search in day light; a non-issue in dungeon crawling). The Alterness, Iron Will and Track feats are also 'handed' to you. You could reasonably grab the 90 feet darkvision, as well as switch the feats out for better stuff. Since you did train as a PC and either were turned into a Troll via magic (like a Ritualistic Wish) or you have some other good reason to not be a nomadic hunter like most of your people. Probably b/c you can buy good food and drink (like honey-roasted aurouh haunches with mulled wine or grass-fed beef steaks with ale) with gold and you can wield acidic or fiery weapons to scare dumb savage trolls that you meet for ***** and giggles.
runestar 03-31-07, 10:41 PM	And you cannot persist a polymorph spell. And persistent shapechange is not available until epic lvs.:)
Qwicksilver 03-31-07, 11:29 PM	Also, I believe that polymorph no longer gives you the HP of the polymorphed creature.
Argaud 03-31-07, 11:36 PM	Also, Agaurd, you have to use the Races of War method of converting powerful races into PC usable races. Nope, I will use the SRD. That is good enough for me. So, the Troll's stat mods are his Monster stats, subratacted by the Elite array, highest creature stat subtracted by the highest remaining value in the array. That houserule makes absolutely no sense. The troll in the MM is not an elite troll, it is a normal, classless troll. The calculation of ability modifiers uses 10s and 11s as base stats, not an elite array. I have read Races of War. The campaign aspects are an entertaining read too, but not exactly my liking. The class modifications are absolutely broken. With any of them a character can outfight, naked and gearless, most monsters of their CR. That is not making a balanced game. For the discussion of this thread, though, I really think we should leave Races of War (and the rest of K's work) out of this conversation since it has little to do with the official rulebooks. K's works have their own threads. It's starting HD have it losing attacks if it uses weapons over a normal fighter, but it can use it's naturals until it's got a 2nd attack or 3rd from BaB, or just get gear that beefs up nat attacks and rely on rending for bonus damage. It is true the troll loses from the Bab. However he gains +6 to hit in melee from the huge strength modifier (and a +2 ranged from the more than decent dex) so it makes up for it. The troll also gets iterative attacks a bit later, but he has an extra (secondary) bite attack (and an extra claw attack too, if he is using a one-handed weapon). The regen is not common, but it's not unique either, the Feral template throws out Fast Healing (which some consider better since subdual or lethal doesn't matter if your rendered unconsious) and there are at least two PrCs that also hand out fast healing (Nature's Warrior, War Shaper and they just in the same book, but Fast Healing's always been a thing for melee users to pick up anyway). That Nat armour's nice as well, but better can also be achieved if the player is willing to pay 18k to achieve +8 nat armour via a Alter Self 24/hr item. It is true regeneration and fast healing can be achieved by PrCs, but the troll has it for free, so it is pretty nice (although, IMHO, overpriced in the LA system). As for custom items granting Alter Self, I rather not to go there. A custom item can also grant constant Vigor (and thus, fast healing) 24/7 for almost nothing. Custom items can be broken very easily and should probably be avoided for this kind of builds. For some reason the monster has 90 feet of darkvision, while the ECL variant has 60 feet; which is dumb. Since +0 LA races like Deep Dwarves get 90 feet of Darkvision and +1 extra on the same saves as a Dwarf gets with only Light blindness (-1 to hit, spot, search in day light; a non-issue in dungeon crawling). The troll also gets low-light vision and scent. Scent rocks. He also gets Spot and Listen as racial skills, so he will have slightly better senses than most warrior types. The Alterness, Iron Will and Track feats are also 'handed' to you. You could reasonably grab the 90 feet darkvision, as well as switch the feats out for better stuff. Those feats can be changed when building an adventuring monster. I will probably take Power Attack, Endurance and Steadfast Determination as 'monster feats'. I don't know how to 'grab' 90' darkvision, though. It is funny the normal troll has it and the troll-as-character has 60' darkvision instead. I guess one of the numbers is a mistake, but I don't think it is terribly important.
Leo 04-01-07, 08:02 PM	Ok, I'm geting reaaaaly confused... To what should we compare the monster guy? To pun-pun? To a munchkin abomination with wish at will? To a CO abomination wich is CR 3 higher than it's actual level? To a really well built characater that is around CR+1 than normal? To a character built whitout great dreams of power? To a character made by a newbie(CR-2)? I guess what we are missing here is what is a balanced character.
MingT 04-01-07, 09:26 PM	Ok, I'm geting reaaaaly confused... To what should we compare the monster guy? To the challenges the core rules very explicitly describe that a character of any given ECL is supposed to encounter. The CRs and ELs are all there in black and white, the various monsters and NPCs and traps and other junk that translates to are all known factors. It is a basic indisputable fact that a ECL 11 troll melee specialist PC will be defeated time and again by any melee encounter opposition ranging from Easy to Standard to Difficult simply based of NPC trolls, let alone the other level appropriate melee encounters he might face. Similarly there isn't much an ECL 13 Nymph is going to do against the armies of CR 7 standard nymphs she is expected to face along with the vastly superior CR 13 nymphs who will kick her bottom. Thats a problem.
Gemstone 04-02-07, 04:42 AM	To the challenges the core rules very explicitly describe that a character of any given ECL is supposed to encounter. The CRs and ELs are all there in black and white, the various monsters and NPCs and traps and other junk that translates to are all known factors. It is a basic indisputable fact that a ECL 11 troll melee specialist PC will be defeated time and again by any melee encounter opposition ranging from Easy to Standard to Difficult simply based of NPC trolls, let alone the other level appropriate melee encounters he might face. Similarly there isn't much an ECL 13 Nymph is going to do against the armies of CR 7 standard nymphs she is expected to face along with the vastly superior CR 13 nymphs who will kick her bottom. Thats a problem. Ahem, they're actually going to face that togheter with 3 other characters of varying class (preferable a wizard, a rogue and a cleric). That's the thing that make such encounter survivable. Healing + Blasting. The troll PC for example, can pull back and regenerate for a few rounds and then come back, while his friends fill up the gap. I've played with a Troll PC in my games who rolled quite good. He's the MAIN damage dealer of the group and is very hard to actually chanllenge thanks to the other PC's. He goes down? He's up in a few rounds because of his regeneration and that dwarven defender who protects him.
Archangel62 04-02-07, 06:11 AM	To the challenges the core rules very explicitly describe that a character of any given ECL is supposed to encounter. The CRs and ELs are all there in black and white, the various monsters and NPCs and traps and other junk that translates to are all known factors. It is a basic indisputable fact that a ECL 11 troll melee specialist PC will be defeated time and again by any melee encounter opposition ranging from Easy to Standard to Difficult simply based of NPC trolls, let alone the other level appropriate melee encounters he might face. Similarly there isn't much an ECL 13 Nymph is going to do against the armies of CR 7 standard nymphs she is expected to face along with the vastly superior CR 13 nymphs who will kick her bottom. Thats a problem. Except the CR system is intended for groups and class levels to weird things to the CR system. A martial character is not a proper challenge by itself at high levels. A caster at that level, however, can be that and higher with just the spells that they can use. Hence the problem, the classes don't always balance internally and the folks at WoTC do need to be concerned about dramatic power level shifts. A troll has two big weaknesses, acid and fire, and those weaknesses can be circumvented fairly easily. A PC can get elemental resistance or immunity items, as rings or placed into armor or any number of types of gear at which point the trolls power level rises prodigiously. The problem with monster-to-character isn't just the raw abilities of the race, it has to do with the synergies that can be created as well as the simple fact that the level adjustment and CR systems are made up of so many moving parts that the fact that they work at all is a miracle.
Gemstone 04-02-07, 06:39 AM	A troll has two big weaknesses, acid and fire, and those weaknesses can be circumvented fairly easily Also, the fact that the DM can't always use those two things are considerable too. I mean, how logicaly is it that as soon as a Troll PC gains regeneration, NPC*s and monsters suddenly run around with acid+fire weapons? Also, why is it that we only face black and red dragons etc? I have this problem in my current high-level (for us) game were the troll is soon to reach Regeneration 5. I'll basicly have to wack him for 5 points of damage each round just to keep his hp going down, which isn't always possible, since he got pretty good AC for his level compared to standard MM monsters.
Pyke_Moonshadow 04-02-07, 07:56 AM	Ok, so I ran a pixie, a troll, a lamassu and a succubus through a ecl appropriate published adventure and they powned it. I am going to run them through an adventure set for 2 levels higher and see what happens. So far I see no problem with LAs.
MingT 04-02-07, 07:58 AM	What sort of excuse is "but there's also a party" do you people know NOTHING. The troll is supposed to deal with those damn encounters the party doesn't matter. No really. They may be there but sometimes the troll has to bear the brunt of those attacks and sometimes he has to be the one to deal with enemies. As a melee specialist he is expected to fulfill his role in the party and soak that damage and punch up those thugs, he doesn't, he can't. The party being there with him is meaningless, they can, MAYBE save him from a level appropriate challenge, at a loss to their resources for no reason, BUT HE CAN'T SAVE THEM FROM A LEVEL APPROPRIATE CHALLENGE. Bringing the party into the picture does nothing other than emphasise his failure not just as a solo but as a team player. "someone else might function FOR me" is not an excuse. Also on a tangent, the troll has negligible weakness to acid and fire. He needs to take ALL his damage from it to suffer and even then its 5 HP a round, by ECL 11 you do NOT care about 5 HP a round, most characters or monsters that even care about HP at all deal vastly more than that by looking at you by then. The troll has only one major weakness, and thats LA.
runestar 04-02-07, 08:10 AM	The point is, MingT, that there are people playing the very races which you have repeatedly decried as being unplayable. And they are having positive experiences with them.
Archangel62 04-02-07, 08:51 AM	What sort of excuse is "but there's also a party" do you people know NOTHING. The troll is supposed to deal with those damn encounters the party doesn't matter. No really. They may be there but sometimes the troll has to bear the brunt of those attacks and sometimes he has to be the one to deal with enemies. As a melee specialist he is expected to fulfill his role in the party and soak that damage and punch up those thugs, he doesn't, he can't. The party being there with him is meaningless, they can, MAYBE save him from a level appropriate challenge, at a loss to their resources for no reason, BUT HE CAN'T SAVE THEM FROM A LEVEL APPROPRIATE CHALLENGE. Bringing the party into the picture does nothing other than emphasise his failure not just as a solo but as a team player. Get it yet? "someone else might function FOR me" is not an excuse. Also on a tangent, the troll has negligible weakness to acid and fire. He needs to take ALL his damage from it to suffer and even then its 5 HP a round, by ECL 11 you do NOT care about 5 HP a round, most characters or monsters that even care about HP at all deal vastly more than that by looking at you by then. The troll has only one major weakness, and thats LA. Ok, that sounds even stranger than what you've said before. At first you accused me of being anti-monstrous character, then you insulted me, and now you're making a rather confusing argument. When you say 'save them from' do you mean that the troll should be able to do entire encounters solo with no help? Or do you mean that the Troll isn't meeting proper standards? The fact is that a party must be factored in, if a class (for example) allowed you to literally do everything in D&D perfectly that class would be too powerful, simply because it would make it so that there was no reason to do anything else and the idea of teamwork kind of fails.
runestar 04-02-07, 09:59 AM	I can understand everyone's initial reaction when I mention playing a ghaele, considering it has a LA of +10. But LA alone does not always tell the whole story. The reason why the ghaele was not given a LA in 3.5, was not because it was unplayable(too weak), but because it was difficult to adjudicate a fair LA for it, considering that it gets access to simply too many special abilities to weigh properly. In fact, LA+10 does not even begin to cover its myriad of features, but the designers had to draw the line somewhere. However, my suggestion was not without its merits. I was involved in a discussion some time back with another member who was interested in trying out a ghaele SS progression as a new PC, and was seeking advice regarding its viability. It was later discovered that its many SLAs at-will, twin-auras, clerical spellcasting and other misc abilities like high NA, dr etc were actually very useful, and the player proceeded to become one of the most useful players in the party. The high point was when he took on a dragon in globe form, to a favourable outcome. Also, astral deva and ghaele progressions can also be decent choices especially if your campaign is not expected to last past low lvs. If you look at their progression pattern, their outsider HD has been front-loaded significantly to aid survival. The 1st 5 lvs grant 5 outsider HD, amongst some nice special features. This can easily outstrip what typical classes enjoy at lower lvs. If your game is expected to end at around lv6, why not?:)
Gemstone 04-02-07, 10:33 AM	What sort of excuse is "but there's also a party" do you people know NOTHING. The troll is supposed to deal with those damn encounters the party doesn't matter. No really. They may be there but sometimes the troll has to bear the brunt of those attacks and sometimes he has to be the one to deal with enemies Okay, for balance reasons, I'm losing respect here. The Party is supposed to deal with threats togheter. A troll isn't a "tough guy" that's supposed to soak damage as a dwarven defender tank. The troll deals massive damage with its many attacks and high strength score. A troll can, after taking some damage, pull back and regenerate without spending party resources. Your view of balance is far from my own. As a melee specialist he is expected to fulfill his role in the party and soak that damage and punch up those thugs, he doesn't, he can't. OKay, he takes damage, goes down... and guess what? Two rounds later (unless fire or acid) he's up again and can flank for even more damage. A troll is near unkillable without death magic and fire + acid. The party being there with him is meaningless, they can, MAYBE save him from a level appropriate challenge, at a loss to their resources for no reason, BUT HE CAN'T SAVE THEM FROM A LEVEL APPROPRIATE CHALLENGE Im not sure what game your playing, but the game I play and most that I believe people here are playing is balanced around 4 player characters, one divine, one arcane, a rogue and a warrior type. Not just a single warrior type running around and having his ass kicked. Bringing the party into the picture does nothing other than emphasise his failure not just as a solo but as a team player Far from. Having a troll gives two large advantages: 1. The cleric can spare those cure spells due to regenreation and can boost himself or others instead. 2. We have an all-dayer that can fight an entire day without stopping since it regenerates. See where this is going? A troll is a very valuable party member. Using the standard 10 and 11 ability scores will push it's ECL down a bit, BUT, if you use something else that's moderatly good, such as the standard elite array, you'll have a woop-ass creature. Get it yet? "someone else might function FOR me" is not an excuse THe game is balanced around 4 members, not ONE. Therefore, the troll will fit right in with the others except that he'll have to use less of the clerics healing. Also on a tangent, the troll has negligible weakness to acid and fire. He needs to take ALL his damage from it to suffer and even then its 5 HP a round, by ECL 11 you do NOT care about 5 HP a round, most characters or monsters that even care about HP at all deal vastly more than that by looking at you by then. The troll has only one major weakness, and thats LA. 5 HP each round can be a killer. I've seen a troll with 1 point of regeneration bounce back and save the entire party twice, without even having help. And that was a fair game, not cuddling. Now, I do agree with you that there are many monsters out there that are overpriced, but the troll isn't one of them IMO. The LA system isn't perfect. adjusting needs to be done, but skipping it entierly will just allow for more power in the game.
Fwib 04-02-07, 02:49 PM	OKay, he takes damage, goes down... and guess what? Two rounds later (unless fire or acid) he's up again and...2 rounds = 10hp. Is there some rule that even if you take more damage than would bring you down to negative 10hp, you only go down to -10?
Pyke_Moonshadow 04-02-07, 03:07 PM	2 rounds = 10hp. Is there some rule that even if you take more damage than would bring you down to negative 10hp, you only go down to -10? No, so it could take more than 2 rounds but still by RAW my dm doesn't let our characters know that fire or acid hurts them unless we make the apporpriate knowledge check which is a DC 16 which means it must be trained. I don't remember what giants fall under but I doubt most enemies have ranks in said knowledge skill.
Archangel62 04-02-07, 06:05 PM	No, so it could take more than 2 rounds but still by RAW my dm doesn't let our characters know that fire or acid hurts them unless we make the apporpriate knowledge check which is a DC 16 which means it must be trained. I don't remember what giants fall under but I doubt most enemies have ranks in said knowledge skill. Ummm...I would think that trolls would know that from their background. That's somewhat like saying that Dwarves don't know that dwarven waraxes are martial weapons for them.
Wayne 04-02-07, 06:52 PM	Despite Ming's starting to rant a bit, I think his point is basically right-- pretty much any level adjusted PC (a troll just happens to be a good example) isn't really as useful as a "normal" PC, assuming equal levels of optimization. (This is where the anecdotal evidence fails, since groups can have vastly different power levels. I've been in a game where I was the only arcane caster-- and a Warlock-- and in that game a Ghaele Eladrin probably would've been broken. But in the game one of my friends ran one in, he died multiple times and was by far the weakest 21st-level PC. Ironically the latter game was much more restricted in terms of material allowed, too. So... yeah.) The simple reality is that a troll has exactly one niche (and that's a big reason why LA fails; what if you want to play a troll shaman, a la WarCraft? You'd suck horribly), and a better PC is more useful. Think about it this way-- if the troll's player was a Wizard, he could be Cyclops, Professor X, or Beast Boy depending on what spells he picked. A Warforged Artificer can switch from being Megaman to Dr. Wily to Inspector Gadget, and so on. But a troll is always Wolverine. He's Wolverine when the party is in the sewers fighting morlocks (good), but he's still Wolverine when Magneto shows up (bad). Consider the following CR 11 challenges: -A Hezrou -A 9th level vampire Cleric -A Cloud Giant -An Elder Fire Elemental -A Harpy Archer (Harpy Ftr 7) -A Hamatula In all of the above cases, an 11th-level Fighter (or Barbarian) would be a better asset to the party than a troll. -The Hezrou drops the troll for 1d10 minutes, no save (a Fighter would only be dazed for 1 round). -The vampire will have a ~DC 20 save on his Dominate gaze, which the troll's Will save of 3 (assuming a PC keeps Iron Will) offers a 15% chance of saving against. If the vampire has more Cha, or Ability Focus (why not?), the troll can't make that save except on 20. Meanwhile, a better class's base save alone is 2 higher at that point, with at least 3 more feats. -The cloud giant so utterly outmatches the troll in melee it's no contest. A Fighter would at least have an adamantine weapon that could survive and make sunder attempts; while if a troll tries the same he gives up rend (the only way his damage keeps up). Note the cloud giant, as well as an 11th level fighting PC; has three attacks to the troll's 2 (or one, with a weapon). -OK, I did this one just to be mean. -The troll is completely useless against any flying enemy, as switching to a bow drops his chance of hitting by at least 4, and probably way more than that (since a troll PC would optimize toward Str). A Fighter has 8 more BAB and possibly a magical bow, making the harpy an easy fight for him. -The barbed devil not only out-damages the troll at the only thing he's good at, he also has DR and the ability to throw illusions, a save-or-lose, and scorching ray for an easy coup de grace. A party needs a tank that can beat that major image and hold person so the hamatula doesn't shred the Wizard-- the troll can't do that. The LA system isn't perfect. adjusting needs to be done, but skipping it entierly will just allow for more power in the game. None of we "optimizers" are saying you should just allow a troll as-is into a 5th level party. (Frank says to just play the monster* at a minimum level, and with set "hit dice" rather than class levels; I and presumably Ming would rather have a fair progression made for them than to use LA, which objectively doesn't work.) * With the caveat that trolls are pretty gimmicky as it is, as trolls are many times more dangerous in close quarters ("closet trolls") and without fire or acid in play than they are in "normal" encounters. A troll is only marginally better than an ogre in many cases, the sole exception being that a troll can't get coup de grace'd when he drops, meaning that if the encounter was easy enough his loss didn't lead to a TPK, he "contributed." Personally, I'd rather play a character that contributes during the battle. :] Edit: Man, it has been forever since I posted; my sig still talks about a game from back in 2004. >_> Uh, good to be back?
Fwib 04-02-07, 07:00 PM	Ummm...I would think that trolls would know that from their background. That's somewhat like saying that Dwarves don't know that dwarven waraxes are martial weapons for them.I think the intention was to say that other creatures do not automatically know that trolls are vulnerable to fire and acid, rather than the troll himself not knowing his own weaknesses. (a way to do this for monster-book-memorising players is to randomly re-assign the weaknesses, or perhaps to allow the weaknesses to work only for adventurers who have made their skill check or previously been told of the weakness - actually that second one looks like a good idea, I think) [edit] rewrite.
Argaud 04-02-07, 09:21 PM	In all of the above cases, an 11th-level Fighter (or Barbarian) would be a better asset to the party than a troll. -The Hezrou drops the troll for 1d10 minutes, no save (a Fighter would only be dazed for 1 round). Hmm, you got the troll here. Lack of HD is a major weakness. -The vampire will have a ~DC 20 save on his Dominate gaze, which the troll's Will save of 3 (assuming a PC keeps Iron Will) offers a 15% chance of saving against. If the vampire has more Cha, or Ability Focus (why not?), the troll can't make that save except on 20. Meanwhile, a better class's base save alone is 2 higher at that point, with at least 3 more feats. I'd take Steadfast Determination, thank you. That is +10 to my will save thanks to that nice +12 Con. -The cloud giant so utterly outmatches the troll in melee it's no contest. A Fighter would at least have an adamantine weapon that could survive and make sunder attempts; while if a troll tries the same he gives up rend (the only way his damage keeps up). Note the cloud giant, as well as an 11th level fighting PC; has three attacks to the troll's 2 (or one, with a weapon). Why wouldn't the troll have a (large) adamantine greatsword too? He has the gear of a level 11 character and giants know how to use all martial weapons (all giants do). If he attacks with the claws he also has three attacks, since he gets two from the claws and another, a secondary attack, with his bite. If he uses a greatsword he only has two attacks, that is true. But he also has better AC than most characters of his level because of the +2 to dex and +5 NA (6 points higher since he has a -1 from large) which adds to the normal gear of a level 11 character. Once he has a class level as barbarian he will be using the usual mithril full plate for AC near 40... at ECL12. -OK, I did this one just to be mean. -The troll is completely useless against any flying enemy, as switching to a bow drops his chance of hitting by at least 4, and probably way more than that (since a troll PC would optimize toward Str). A Fighter has 8 more BAB and possibly a magical bow, making the harpy an easy fight for him. What? A level 11 character without a means of flying? Sure you jest, sir :) At the very least he will be carrying a potion of flying. -The barbed devil not only out-damages the troll at the only thing he's good at, he also has DR and the ability to throw illusions, a save-or-lose, and scorching ray for an easy coup de grace. A party needs a tank that can beat that major image and hold person so the hamatula doesn't shred the Wizard-- the troll can't do that. Lets see... Scorching Ray? Sorry, no Knowledge Nature, the devil has no idea the troll is vulnerable to fire. Illusions? Everybody has the same problem, not just the troll. At least the troll has scent and will detect invisible and hidden enemies at 30'. Hold Person? Does not work on giants. Still, I have to admit a classless troll at level 11 looks a bit weak (probably because regeneration is overvalued in the LA system). But since Ming's "challenge" is building a troll with 6 class levels better than his dwarf bearwarrior/frenzied berserker, I think I have it very easy. Edit: Man, it has been forever since I posted; my sig still talks about a game from back in 2004. >_> Uh, good to be back? Hey, welcome back :D
Kresalak 04-02-07, 09:42 PM	Hmm, you got the troll here. Lack of HD is a major weakness. I'd take Steadfast Determination, thank you. That is +10 to my will save thanks to that nice +12 Con. Trolls only get 3 feats at level 11, you know. Steadfast Determination is 2 of them. Why wouldn't the troll have a (large) adamantine greatsword too? He has the gear of a level 11 character and giants know how to use all martial weapons (all giants do). If he attacks with the claws he also has three attacks, since he gets two from the claws and another, a secondary attack, with his bite. If he uses a greatsword he only has two attacks, that is true. But he also has better AC than most characters of his level because of the +2 to dex and +5 NA (6 points higher since he has a -1 from large) which adds to the normal gear of a level 11 character. Once he has a class level as barbarian he will be using the usual mithril full plate for AC near 40... at ECL12. If you actually want to have an AC worth mentioning you have an item of Alter Self, and you turn into something that gives you +8 NA-which doesn't stack with the troll's.
Argaud 04-02-07, 09:49 PM	Trolls only get 3 feats at level 11, you know. Steadfast Determination is 2 of them. And the last one is probably Power Attack. But you already knew that... I posted it a page ago. If you actually want to have an AC worth mentioning you have an item of Alter Self, and you turn into something that gives you +8 NA-which doesn't stack with the troll's. Custom items are pretty iffy and easy to break. I'd take an item of constant Shield, another of constant Expeditious Retreat. Another of constant Vigor. Another of... I am sure you know what I am talking about. Also, alter self... okay. Do you realize the troll can take -any- large giant/humanoid form. Wartroll? Firbolg? Yeah. Much, much better than medium forms. +8 NA? No thanks. I'll take a +14.
Wayne 04-02-07, 10:11 PM	Thanks. :] I've been drifting away from D&D for awhile, but monstrous races/the LA system has always been interesting to debate. In order-- -Yeah, and it's more telling than just blasphemy, since that also means he can take fewer negative levels (especially since many don't have a save to negate, only to remove... one of the game's more asinine mechanics) and other stuff. -Heh, yeah, the feat that finally made Endurance worth taking. I was focusing on Core stuff, but fair point. (Though that's also a point in the "normal" race's favor, since they also have at least two more feats, and in any event it's still around a 50% failure rate on level-appropriate spells (6th level spells + 22 casting stat/20 + spell focus = DC 22).) -Right, using a weapon means a troll gets one attack (the bite is a nonfactor at its -5 to hit and low damage), so that's substantially inferior damage output compared to BAB +11 characters, even ones with "average" (at that point, 18 or 22) Strength. AC is also basically a wash-- by 11th level anyone that wants high AC is essentially unhittable anyway, and anyone with low AC doesn't really need it (between DR, concealment, etc.). It's nice, but like Regeneration, only matters in certain games, especially with higher levels' increasing proponderence of save-or-dies. -Indeed, but a potion of fly doesn't really help against the harpy's 80' fly speed and Manyshot. (There's a reason why I picked it, heh.) If a troll is wearing medium or heavy armor, he can't even keep up even by charging (even if admittedly he also becomes hard to hit). -Requiring a monster to make a knowledge check to know how to beat regeneration is a houserule, since it's not exactly a "vulnerability" (fire doesn't actually knock down a troll any faster, I mean), and so many creatures-- including devils-- have it, and seeing it in action is really obvious. This is akin to requiring someone to make a Knowledge: Dungeoneering roll to know that beholders have eye stalks. Good one on hold person, though, I make that mistake a lot. *chuckles* Still, I have to admit a classless troll at level 11 looks a bit weak (probably because regeneration is overvalued in the LA system). Yeah, this is basically all I'm saying. LA might or might not "work" in a couple cases (one of my friends and I argued a bit on my blog about the Ogre-Mage), but the system itself is flawed. It assumes that everyone playing "a monster" is a munchkin who only wants to maximize a creature's [typically already prodigious] strengths, and to punish people for playing races the designers don't want people playing (seriously, Drow at +2? Blues at +1?). But that ignores: -The DM's girlfriend, who thinks Drow are hot, -The RPG geek who always wants to play a dragon, -That really creepy guy who loves ethergaunts and aberrant grafts, -The DM's best friend, who likes robots and devils; in particular Inevitables, -And the equistrarian major who wants to be a centaur and likes horses a bit too much. I've had all those people in my games (and been one), and in every case the LA system has failed (Drow, half-dragons) or not even tried (kolyarut). Perhaps worse is when the results are balanced-- more or less-- but then you want to do something different, like an ogre-mage who's actually a mage. And you can't, because the rules are actually designed to make that a punitively difficult (Sublime Chord) or ridiculous (Beholder-Mage) thing to do. ...wow, got a little carried away there. Uh, anyway, good luck with the contest. :]
Kresalak 04-02-07, 11:55 PM	-And the equistrarian major who wants to be a centaur and likes horses a bit too much. Would that be the same person who frequents the Gaming Den, or a coincidence? Also, alter self... okay. Do you realize the troll can take -any- large giant/humanoid form. Wartroll? Firbolg? Yeah. Much, much better than medium forms. +8 NA? No thanks. I'll take a +14. "The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level." Also, those still don't stack.
Wayne 04-03-07, 01:38 AM	*laughs* No, just one of my long-term players at a local college where I ran a game for about two years. She ended up playing a Monk, and died horribly trying to melee an Ettin by herself... we haven't really talked much since then. >_> (For reference, I was the guy obsessed with robots, and actually did play a watered-down Kolyarut. I think I got killed by a mace of disruption, except the DM left me "inert" like a Warforged instead. Obviously "weaknesses" are something that really ought to be factored into LA more, heh....) I have run a few games online, but I'm pretty sure Crissa wasn't in any of them. Also, darn you for revealing my past ties with the Gaming Den! Now they'll never take me seriously around here! --- And yeah, I didn't really want to make the point that "normal" races benefit a lot more from extraneous abilities than trolls do. More HD (making for access to better feats, especially the PHB2's high-BAB ones, and skill tricks), easier stackability, etc. are all points in a Dwarf's favor. I mean, can't a Wizard 11 with any +1 caster level bonus just polymorph into a War Troll (MM3) and rip a LA'd troll apart? If he wants to get his hands dirty, anyway.
NineInchNall 04-03-07, 01:50 AM	polymorph[/i] into a War Troll (MM3) and rip a LA'd troll apart? If he wants to get his hands dirty, anyway. No, but Psion 10 could.
Wayne 04-03-07, 02:07 AM	Now, it might be because it's late (...erk), but I'm not sure what metamorphosis grants here that polymorph doesn't. (Being as war trolls are way better than regular trolls and have 12 HD, and polymorph's HD limit is based on caster level, to 15.) Though I admit it's been about two years since I've actually had to use either one (bloody low-level Eberron...), heh.
Kresalak 04-03-07, 02:39 AM	Polymorph has a hard cap of your hit dice or your caster level, whichever is lower. Hence, you need to be level 12 before Polymorph makes the guy playing a troll actually commit suicide.
Pyke_Moonshadow 04-03-07, 09:33 AM	Ummm...I would think that trolls would know that from their background. That's somewhat like saying that Dwarves don't know that dwarven waraxes are martial weapons for them. I was referring to the troll's enemies.
Judging Eagle 04-03-07, 05:21 PM	And the last one is probably Power Attack. But you already knew that... I posted it a page ago. Custom items are pretty iffy and easy to break. I'd take an item of constant Shield, another of constant Expeditious Retreat. Another of constant Vigor. Another of... I am sure you know what I am talking about. Also, alter self... okay. Do you realize the troll can take -any- large giant/humanoid form. Wartroll? Firbolg? Yeah. Much, much better than medium forms. +8 NA? No thanks. I'll take a +14. Yeah, you can turn into any creature of your type that has no more than 3 racial HD with the 18,000 gp item. If you go for a caster level 5 item (max of a 5 Racial HD race to change into) that's 30,000 gp. So, Crucian is okay for a Dwarf. The Troll is SoL, since he's one of the 'smaller' HD races of his type. Also, it 'replaces' his natural armour. since you lose your existing racial stuff, as well as your darkvision and even regeneration and scent. Firbolg is the realm of Polymorph. So, the wizard kicks both the Trolls and Dwarfs asses. Shield is okay as a spell, but it's gonna chew up an item slot, cost at least 4,000. Well, it's is a cheap enough item to pick up; the +1 Animated Towe Shield is 9,000 for +5 AC (5,000 gp for +1 AC... yeah, noth worth it) and won't stop magic missiles... although a Wizard who casts MM with prepared slots in a challenging fight needs an ass-whupping. Of course, you need a slot for it and it's gonna have to make sense. Bracers I guess would do the trick. In any case, losing HD to get an str score that a lvl 12 char can pretty much get (the troll with 15 starting str, +12 racial, +4 Rage, +4 Item, +1 level = 36 str, which is lower than the Dwarfs finagling that reaches 38 and in 5 and 10 levels will be more since bear warrior 5 and 10 are viable options) , as well as losing skill ranks and saves and BaB isn't all that worth it. Iaimeki wrote up a 6th lvl Troll PC race that players could conceivably use and neither make themselves or other people cry. Despite my usual preference for lightly armored characters that combine multiple abilities and have lots of utility, I've always had a weird desire to play a troll, perhaps because it's very hard for a troll PC to die unless your DM goes out of their way to be mean to you. Like most monsters, though, the troll is unplayable at its ECL, where it's supposedly the equivalent of an 11th-level character despite having two-thirds to one-half as many hit points as an 11th-level melee tank, no ability to fight outside melee, and an attack bonus that makes me cry. Let's see if RoW can rescue the troll. Converting the stat mods using Method 1 gives +8 Str, +8 Con, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha. However, having trolls be smarter than they are wise because of the way the stat arrays line up is dumb, so let's flip that, getting +8 Str, +8 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha. The troll has 6 HD and is CR 6 as a PC, but only has BAB +4. With the exception of the frost giant in the examples, which gets somewhat shafted on hit points (~110 with 10 HD, vs. 133 natively), Method 2 indicates that total hit points should come out about the same, so its native d8 HD look fine. For some reason, all the examples increase base skill points to 4 + Int, so let's do that too. The ogre gets full BAB, so I imagine a troll, as another melee specialist, should too. Despite being a giant, the "troll as characters" entry notes no proficiencies, so I presume that overrides the general giant type. +8 Strength, +8 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. Giant Type. Large size. Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. 30' movement. Low-light vision and darkvision 90'. +5 natural armor. Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d6) and bite (1d6). Rend: If a troll hits with both claw attacks, it deals an extra 2d6+1˝ times Str modifier damage. Scent. Regeneration 5. Fire and acid deal normal damage to a troll. If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The troll can reattach a severed member instantly by holding it to the stump. Automatic Languages: Giant, Common. Bonus Languages: Orc. Favored Classes: Fighter and Ranger. 6 Starting Hit Dice (6d8; 4 + Int modifier x 9 skill points; +5 Fort, +2 Reflex, +2 Will; +6 BAB). This character retains the troll's signature near-invulnerability while having stats more in line with a typical 6th-level character. When I glance over its stats, my intuition says that it's around as dangerous as a 6th-level barbarian from a normal race, which is about right. Let's see what a more detailed look shows. There are two interesting paths for a PC troll using the RoW classes. The natural progression, barbarian, picks up the ability to use the troll's awesome Fort save to make the other saves as well and then immunity to nonlethal damage, which makes the troll well-nigh invulnerable. Unfortunately, personal invulnerability in D&D isn't worth that much because it just makes enemies target the other members of the party. The other, more interesting option tries to turn the troll's durability into an advantage for the rest of the party. Meet Grog, the troll knight. Grog was raised by humans and so always has Ride and some other irrelevant skills in-class. Grog the Troll Knight Troll 6/Knight 10 Str 24 (16+8), Dex 14, Con 24 (16+8), Int 4 (8-4), Wis 8 (10-2), Cha 4 (8-4) (28 point buy) Feats: 1st: Elusive Target 3rd: Horde Breaker 6th: Juggernaut Knt 1: Mounted Combat 9th: Phalanx Fighting Knt 5: Command 12th: Blind Fighting 15th: Lightning Reflexes 18th: Iron Will At 6th level: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 4, Wis 8, Cha 4 +2 bracers of Str (4k), +2 belt of Con (4k), handy haversack (2k), +1 ring of protection (2k), +2 cloak of protection (4k) 6d8+48 (78.5 avg. hp); movement 30'; init +2; AC 19 normal, 14 touch, 14 incorporeal (+4 dodge); +6 BAB; saves +15/+6/+3 Attacks 2 claws +14 melee (1d6+8) and bite +9 melee (1d6+4) Skills [Ranks]: Ride +11 [9] Darkvision 90', low-light vision, rend 2d6+12, regeneration 5, scent At this level, with no knight levels, Grog is just a melee specialist with a glass jaw: low AC and no Will save to speak of. If he hits with both claws, he expects to do 44 damage thanks to the rend, which isn't even all that impressive compared to say, a greatsword-wielding-half-orc barbarian with similar feat choices, who does about 27 damage in a single attack. About all he has goes going for him is that with Large size, Juggernaut, and full BAB, his combat maneuvers are not to be taken lightly. With no ranged atttack, he fits the troll-sucker-punch stereotype to a tee. At 11th level: Str 27, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 4, Wis 8, Cha 4 +2 bracers of Str (4k), +2 belt of Con (4k), boots of speed (12k), +1 stone plate (~17.5k?) [-8 ACP], +1 animated ice aegis (~19.5k?) [-4 ACP], masterwork greatlance (~.3k), masterwork greatspear (~.3k), masterwork composite greatbow (~.4k), handy haversack (2k), +1 ring of protection (2k), +2 cloak of resistance (4k) 6d8+5d12+88 (151 avg. hp); movement 20'; init +2; AC 35 normal, 13 touch, 13 incorporeal (+3 dodge); +11 BAB; saves +17/+7/+7 Attacks masterwork polearm +20/+15/+15 melee (2d6+14/x3) and bite +13 melee (1d6+4) or 2 claws +18 melee (1d6+8) and bite +13 melee (1d6+4) or masterwork composite greatbow +13/+8/+8 ranged (2d6+8/x3) [Grog uses GMW on either the greatlance or greatspear depending on whether he expects to fight inside or outside.] Skills [Ranks]: Ride +16 [14] Code of conduct, damage reduction 2/—, darkvision 90', designate opponent +5d6, earth subtype, energy resistance 11 (usually acid), fire resistance 6, ignores first 5 points of nonlethal damage from physical attacks, immunity to cold and fear, knightly spirit, low-light vision, rend 2d6+12, regeneration 5, scent, speak to animals Grog looks more like a real character now. While his non-Fort saves still suck, he has ridiculous AC, and between damage reduction, regeneration, and his stone plate, negates seven damage from any physical attack that hits him. The knight's energy resistance ability synergizes nicely with the only way to kill Grog using hit point damage, and makes it harder to cheese him using, e.g., alchemist's fire with sneak attack. Grog's weapons are almost incidental to his actual combat potential, since most of his damage comes from designate opponent; their main advantage is that they give him 20' reach while still allowing him to hit enemies within 10' because of Phalanx Fighter. His combat maneuvers remain decent, though now lots of monsters have higher BAB than their CRs. Grog takes as a cohort some Huge magical beast that he can ride around outside. (An yrthak is a decent core choice, but he really wants something with an alternate form or change shape ability so it can walk around inside too. I'm sure something exists, but I'm not digging through six books of monsters to find it.) At 16th level: Str 37, Dex 18, Con 28, Int 4, Wis 10, Cha 4 +6 bracers of Str (36k), +4 gloves of Dex (16k), +4 belt of Con (16k), +2 headband of Wis (4k), boots of speed (12k), +1 stone plate of moderate fortification (~32.5k?) [-8 ACP], +3 animated ice aegis (~35.5k?) [-4 ACP], masterwork greatlance (~.3k), masterwork great spear (~.3k), masterwork composite greatbow (~.4k), handy haversack (2k), +3/+2 ring of superior protection [+3 deflection, +2 luck/sacred/insight to AC] (63k), +2 amulet of natural armor (8k), +5 cloak of resistance (25k), bag of holding IV filled with rocks (10k) 6d8+10d12+144 (239.5 avg. hp); movement 30'; init +7; AC 50 normal, 26 touch, 26 incorporeal (+6 dodge); +16 BAB; saves +22/+17/+14 [+4 Dex, +11 armor, +8 shield, -1 size, +7 enhanced natural, +3 deflection, +2 luck, +2 insight, +2 sacred, +2 dodge] Attacks masterwork polearm +32/+27/+27/+27 melee (2d6+23/x3) and bite +23 melee (1d6+6) or 2 claws +28 melee (1d6+13) and bite +23 melee (1d6+6) or rock +20 ranged (2d8+19/x3) or masterwork composite greatbow +20/+15/+15/+15 ranged (2d6+13/x3) Skills [Ranks]: Ride +23 [19] Bastion of defense, code of conduct, damage reduction 5/—, darkvision 90', defend others, designate opponent +10d6, draw fire (DC 27), earthglide, earth subtype, energy resistance 18 (usually acid), ignores first 5 points of nonlethal damage from physical attacks, immunity to cold, fear, and fire, knightly spirit, knightly order (great knight), low-light vision, mettle, quick recovery, regeneration 5, rend 2d6+19, sacrifice, scent, speak to animals, spell resistance 29 Grog has more or less just improved everything he already does. He has a few more tactical options, from e.g., rock throwing and earthglide, and a few more defenses, such as fire immunity and mettle. I opted for great knight as a good general choice. Chaos knight would be a decent choice if he was devoted to chaos; if he was willing to forgo fire resistance earlier in his career or swap shields at some point (an expensive proposition), he could become a bane knight and pick up immunity to two of the ways to actually kill him. His cohort has also improved, probably to something dragonish. Bonus Feature: Grug, the Troll Barbarian Troll 6/Barbarian 14 1st: Blitz 3rd: Horde Breaker 6th: Juggernaut 9th: Great Fortitude 12th: Blind Fighting 15th: Combat School of Little Stabby Things (chain spikes, claws, bites) Bbn 11: Command 18th: Danger Sense At 11th-level: Str 27, Dex 14, Con 28, Int 4, Wis 8, Cha 4 +2 bracers of Str (4k), +4 belt of Con (16k), boots of speed (12k), masterwork breastplate (~.3k) [-3 ACP], +1 animated force shield (~10k?) [-0 ACP], adamantine greatchain (~3k), masterwork composite greatbow (~.4k), handy haversack (2k), +1 ring of protection (2k), +2 cloak of resistance (4k), minor ring of acid resistance (12k) [I really have no idea what a breastplate does, other than absorb nonlethal damage; the other possible option, chainmail, doesn't even [i]have an entry. I used mithral prices for the shield, but that's a stab in the dark. The greatchain and greatbow are Large versions of the spiked chain and longbow, respectively.] 6d8+5d12+110 (173 avg. hp); movement 40'; init +2; AC 25 normal, 18 touch, 18 incorporeal (+4 dodge); +11 BAB; saves +25/+9/+6 (uses Fort for all while raging) Attacks adamantine greatchain +23/+21/+21 melee (4d6+17) and bite +16 melee (1d6+6) or 2 claws +21 melee (3d6+10) and bite +16 melee (3d6+6) or masterwork composite greatbow +13/+8/+8 ranged (2d6+8/x3) [Grug uses GMW on the chain. Most stats are while raging.] Skills [Ranks]: Spot +13 [14] Acid resistance 10, battle hardened, combat movement 10', damage reduction 4/— (while raging), darkvision 90', fast healing 5 (while not raging), ignores first 5 points of nonlethal damage from physical attacks, low-light vision, rage, rage dice +2d6, rend 2d6+12, regeneration 5, scent, sidestep hazards When raging, Grug does lots of damage in melee and is incredibly difficult to take down. He negates ten damage from each attack, between damage reduction and ignoring nonlethal damage, and regenerates; he also has some acid resistance, so is harder to hurt with one of the common troll banes. His saves should be good enough so that he only ever fails anything on a natural 1. He can also cut through most obstacles that a caster might be able to generate. His biggest weakness is being caught and disabled with a non-damaging effect before he has a chance to rage. At this point, he's probably still weaker than Grog in straight-up resilience. At 16th-level: Str 33, Dex 14, Con 30, Int 4, Wis 8, Cha 4 +6 bracers of Str (36k), +4 gloves of Dex (16k), +6 belt of Con (36k), boots of speed (12k), +1 red dragonscale shirt (~1.6k) [-3 ACP], +3 animated force shield (~26k?) [-0 ACP], adamantine greatchain (~3k), masterwork composite greatbow (~.4k), handy haversack (2k), +3/+2 ring of superior protection [+3 deflection, +2 luck/sacred/insight to AC] (63k), bag of holding IV filled with rocks (10k), +4 cloak of resistance (16k), greater ring of acid resistance (44k) [I used dragon scale mail prices for the dragon armor as a random guess at how much a dragonscale shirt costs. The greatchain and greatbow are Large versions of the spiked chain and longbow, respectively.] 6d8+10d12+176 (271.5 avg. hp); movement 55'; init +4; AC 42 normal, 24 touch, 30 incorporeal (+4 dodge); +16 BAB; saves +29/+13/+8 (uses Fort for all while raging) [-1 size, +4 Dex, +7 armor, +6 shield, +5 natural, +3 deflection, +2 luck, +2 insight, +2 sacred, +4 cover, -2 rage] Attacks adamantine greatchain +34/+32/+32/+32 melee (7d6+24) and bite +28 melee (1d6+9) or 2 claws +30 melee (6d6+15) and bite +28 melee (6d6+9) or rock +20 ranged (2d8+16/x3) or masterwork composite greatbow +20/+18/+18/+18 ranged (2d6+11/x3) [Grug uses GMW on the chain. Most stats are while raging.] Skills [Ranks]: Spot +18 [19] Acid resistance 30, battle hardened, combat movement 25', damage reduction 10/— (while raging), darkvision 90', fast healing 10 (while not raging), great blows (DC 28), great life, immune to fire, low-light vision, rage, rage dice +5d6, rend 2d6+16, regeneration 5, scent, sidestep hazards Once Grug starts raging, he's all but invulnerable. He's immune to nonlethal damage, but because of regeneration, all damage that doesn't come from fire or acid is nonlethal; with fire immunity and acid resistance 30, he's effectively immune to dying from any damage whatsoever. With a Fort save of +29 at 16th level, he expects to fail saves only on natural 1s. Stopping Grug requires clever use of spells without saves that bypass his immunities, not an easy task, or disabling him before he gets to act. Of course, Grog is still more dangerous if ignored because of designate opponent and provides much better defensive benefits to the party, but Grug is at this point even harder to kill than Grog. Grog is pretty much the ultimate expression of the troll: hard to kill, fighting him in a closet really sucks, but with range and clever tactics, it's possible to take him down. Whew. I'm actually quite pleased with how the Races of War rules handled the troll: they took a difficult monster and, even in builds aiming to maximize synergies, produced something that wasn't wildly out of whack compared to what other characters of similar levels could accomplish. The fact that the Troll is a [Puzzle] monster is still a problem, but shouldn't be a huge one. Since he's giving up class abilities, hit dice, saves and training for stats, regeneration 5, scent, darkvison 90', being large/tall, having 3 nat attacks, rend and some nat armour. Which is what someone wanting to play a troll wants. You don't need to throw them +12 str/con and then take away BaB. Then again, the RoW fighter at any level will always make Grog whimper; since it's the equivalent of the 2nd Ed fighter for the 3.5 Ed. game.
Argaud 04-03-07, 05:34 PM	Yeah, you can turn into any creature of your type that has no more than 3 racial HD with the 18,000 gp item. If you go for a caster level 5 item (max of a 5 Racial HD race to change into) that's 30,000 gp. Yeah, yeah. Kresalak already reminded me Alter Self is useless to the troll. That is not a problem. If we bring in custom items there are dozens of awesome low level spells of which I can abuse to build up superpowerful items. :D
Arem_K 04-03-07, 06:43 PM	Yeah, yeah. Kresalak already reminded me Alter Self is useless to the troll. That is not a problem. If we bring in custom items there are dozens of awesome low level spells of which I can abuse to build up superpowerful items. :D Isn't it pretty easy to get alter self without custom magic items? A wand would cost 4,500 gp and last 30 mins, which is long enough that it should be castable before combat even starts. UMD check is 20, which should be doable at this level. Alter Self is also a really cool utility spell.
Wayne 04-03-07, 07:14 PM	Ack, so it is. Well, that teaches me to toss out points without checking the rules first. >_> Thanks, guys. On a tangential note, while pretty much all of us can agree LA is flawed can't be balanced in the d20 system, logically], that mostly goes for races, when you have to deal with both "hit dice" (necessary to give a monster level-appropriate parameters) and special abilities. But what about templates? They're a good idea (it was kind of dumb in AD&D how every vampire always had the same stats), but since they're naturally "layered onto" another race you can't really use the same rules for them. Multiclassing is one answer (Warshaper 3 comes to mind), but then you have the issue of having to create separate classes for each template, and in any event they have the same problem LA does now-- those levels wouldn't scale properly. But the only other option I can see is LA... where you're basically trading hit points and spell slots and stuff in exchange for a list of abilities. If template abilities scaled too, that might be workable. Anyway, that's just something that's been bugging me since reading through this thread.
Argaud 04-03-07, 08:05 PM	Isn't it pretty easy to get alter self without custom magic items? A wand would cost 4,500 gp and last 30 mins, which is long enough that it should be castable before combat even starts. UMD check is 20, which should be doable at this level. Alter Self is also a really cool utility spell. Correct abuse of the spell requires being an outsider. Just from the MM the planetouched get those mephit forms with perfect flight and the lesser xorn (+14 NA, borrowing speed, 5 claw attacks... ow).