Legitimate balance question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Legitimate balance question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Phelot_Plaguecrafter
02-21-08, 09:03 PM So, there's this race in DnD. My favorite race, actually. Straight out of MMIII.
The Armand. Little armadillo guys that love life so much they don't even fight someone unless that valued life is threatened specifically. They use experiences and age as almost a form of currency in their society. I love the guys, really.
But here's my qualm. Their racials are pretty all right, to name a few:
+6 con and dex
two claws for 1d4 each
+4 natural armor
Defensive stance
Favored class: Monk

I have no problem with their racials, I think they're great, my thing is they have 5 HD and 3 LA. Just with a flat acid test, an ECL 8 human fighter would more likely than not trash one of these guys, let alone an ECL 8 anything else.
I love the guys, and I know that HD are far far better than LA, but...I mean...Aasimar is +1. Thri-Kreen is 2HD and +2.

Are Armand racials 8 times better than an Aasimar's? Two times better than a Thri-Kreen's?

Do you feel it a legitimate ruling to turn these guys into maybe 3HD and +2 or maybe even +1?
Half_Dragon_Infernal
02-21-08, 09:16 PM Just off the top of my head, Armands had some pretty good abilities. I'd say they would be about +2 though, cause that racial HD is pretty nasty on them.
Lawkeeper
02-22-08, 07:56 AM Don't reduce the LA to less than +2. +3 would be fine too if you plan on cuttint most of the HD, like leaving 2HD or none at all.
The aasimar get a total adjustment caracs of +4, to your +12. They get a few resistances and light, but you get defensive stance and a much better natural armor, as well as stability and a burrow speed. So, IMHO you're clearly at least two or three times better, hence +2 minimum LA.

Regarding the HD, it's heavy indeed. That's five HD, worse than fighter (good BAB, good Refl&Will save, but still 2+Int skills and no "class" features, like feats). And small size, which is weird when so many HD are involved.

So, it's either minimum 2HD/LA+2 (in essence, "diluting" the additional LA by "replacing class features"), or no racial HD but LA +3 at least.
Airos
02-22-08, 02:12 PM I love the guys, and I know that HD are far far better than LA, but...I mean...Aasimar is +1. Thri-Kreen is 2HD and +2.

Are Armand racials 8 times better than an Aasimar's? Two times better than a Thri-Kreen's?

No, they're 3 times better than an Aasimar and half again as good as a Thri-Kreen. You have to compare the LA to the LA, not the ECL to the ECL.

You have to take into account that those 5 hit dice get you hit points, base attack, saves, skills, feats and a +1 to a stat. Sure, it's not as good as 5 class levels, but it still counts for something. The Armand gets more of these than the Thri-Kreen, and the Aaasimar doesn't get any at all.

If I were your DM I would suggest using Savage Species to make up a monster class so you could start this out earlier than 9th level, but you'd still wind up with 5 racial hit dice and +3 LA. There's also a LA buyoff rules variant, either in Unearthed Arcana or PHB2.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter
02-22-08, 04:51 PM Yeah, comparing LA to LA, I would agree. I'm completely okay with a +3 LA, I feel like they deserve it. Defensive stance and stability and good NA and all that.
It's mostly the 5 HD I can't quite understand. If I were to make a savage progression that just started at 1 HD and +3 LA, where would I go with it? How possible is it that an Armand could stop after 2HD or 3HD and be just as balanced? What does the Armand get from those last couple HD? An extra stat? Another point of 3/4 BAB?
I dig it that there's supposed to be some kind of negative for playing a race like this, and the +3 LA and 5HD certainly is a negative, but I just get the feeling I should be able to make a monk that looks like an Armand and acts like an Armand and talks like an Armand but isn't level 9.

Any chance I could get the experts here to come up with some kind of fair Savage Progression? Maybe 3HD instead of their dastardly 5? Maybe...no HD?

=edit= Also, I do plan to abuse the crap out of UA's LA buyoff system, thanks for reminding me of that one.
Half_Dragon_Infernal
02-22-08, 07:17 PM LA buyoff and giving them +2 LA is probably good enough.
ArochanoX
02-23-08, 07:32 AM Any chance I could get the experts here to come up with some kind of fair Savage Progression? Maybe 3HD instead of their dastardly 5? Maybe...no HD?

Savage progression for an armandish creature

ECL RHD LA BAB Fort Ref Will NA Special
1 1 +0 +1 +0 +2 +2 +0 Stability, Darkvision 60ft
2 2 +0 +2 +0 +3 +3 +1 +2 Con, +2 Racial bonus on survival
3 2 +1 +2 +0 +3 +3 +1 +2 Dex, 2 claw attacks (1d3)
4 3 +1 +3 +1 +3 +3 +2 +2 Con
5 4 +1 +4 +1 +4 +4 +2 +2 Dex, +2 racial bonus on survival
6 4 +2 +4 +1 +4 +4 +3 +2 Con, Defencive Stance
7 5 +2 +5 +1 +4 +4 +3 +2 Dex, 2 claw attacks (1d4)
8 5 +3 +5 +1 +4 +4 +4 Burrow Speed 10ft

The most imbalancing trait is the burrow speed. And other traits like +6 dex and con are just really good as is the +4NA. Monstrous humanoid racial HD don't lower the HD much as they're one of the best monster HD's out there (after Outsider and Dragon of course). So basically you could buy the whole thing with +4 LA and no racial HD. Note that the constitution bonus easily covers the LA hp-wise...
AtsuiShoto
02-23-08, 01:31 PM 2 HD and +2 LA. That's my vote. Thri-Kreen are about on the same level as these guys combat-wise.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter
02-24-08, 01:32 PM Okay, everyone's opinions crunched together, I'm gonna go with 4HD and 2LA with eventual buyoff.

The progression I'll use will have burrow speed as its final buff, as presented by ArochanoX, Defensive Stance at the second level, and Stability at the first. I'll divide up the Dex and Con evenly among the 4, and they'll receive the one feat, the one ability point, and the +3 BaB they would normally receive from 5 HD, but essentially without that final largely nonessential HD.

Basically, I'll be lowering that LA by one, and dropping that final Monstrous Humanoid HD.

Thanks, Race boards!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 02-21-08, 09:03 PM	So, there's this race in DnD. My favorite race, actually. Straight out of MMIII. The Armand. Little armadillo guys that love life so much they don't even fight someone unless that valued life is threatened specifically. They use experiences and age as almost a form of currency in their society. I love the guys, really. But here's my qualm. Their racials are pretty all right, to name a few: +6 con and dex two claws for 1d4 each +4 natural armor Defensive stance Favored class: Monk I have no problem with their racials, I think they're great, my thing is they have 5 HD and 3 LA. Just with a flat acid test, an ECL 8 human fighter would more likely than not trash one of these guys, let alone an ECL 8 anything else. I love the guys, and I know that HD are far far better than LA, but...I mean...Aasimar is +1. Thri-Kreen is 2HD and +2. Are Armand racials 8 times better than an Aasimar's? Two times better than a Thri-Kreen's? Do you feel it a legitimate ruling to turn these guys into maybe 3HD and +2 or maybe even +1?
Half_Dragon_Infernal 02-21-08, 09:16 PM	Just off the top of my head, Armands had some pretty good abilities. I'd say they would be about +2 though, cause that racial HD is pretty nasty on them.
Lawkeeper 02-22-08, 07:56 AM	Don't reduce the LA to less than +2. +3 would be fine too if you plan on cuttint most of the HD, like leaving 2HD or none at all. The aasimar get a total adjustment caracs of +4, to your +12. They get a few resistances and light, but you get defensive stance and a much better natural armor, as well as stability and a burrow speed. So, IMHO you're clearly at least two or three times better, hence +2 minimum LA. Regarding the HD, it's heavy indeed. That's five HD, worse than fighter (good BAB, good Refl&Will save, but still 2+Int skills and no "class" features, like feats). And small size, which is weird when so many HD are involved. So, it's either minimum 2HD/LA+2 (in essence, "diluting" the additional LA by "replacing class features"), or no racial HD but LA +3 at least.
Airos 02-22-08, 02:12 PM	I love the guys, and I know that HD are far far better than LA, but...I mean...Aasimar is +1. Thri-Kreen is 2HD and +2. Are Armand racials 8 times better than an Aasimar's? Two times better than a Thri-Kreen's? No, they're 3 times better than an Aasimar and half again as good as a Thri-Kreen. You have to compare the LA to the LA, not the ECL to the ECL. You have to take into account that those 5 hit dice get you hit points, base attack, saves, skills, feats and a +1 to a stat. Sure, it's not as good as 5 class levels, but it still counts for something. The Armand gets more of these than the Thri-Kreen, and the Aaasimar doesn't get any at all. If I were your DM I would suggest using Savage Species to make up a monster class so you could start this out earlier than 9th level, but you'd still wind up with 5 racial hit dice and +3 LA. There's also a LA buyoff rules variant, either in Unearthed Arcana or PHB2.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 02-22-08, 04:51 PM	Yeah, comparing LA to LA, I would agree. I'm completely okay with a +3 LA, I feel like they deserve it. Defensive stance and stability and good NA and all that. It's mostly the 5 HD I can't quite understand. If I were to make a savage progression that just started at 1 HD and +3 LA, where would I go with it? How possible is it that an Armand could stop after 2HD or 3HD and be just as balanced? What does the Armand get from those last couple HD? An extra stat? Another point of 3/4 BAB? I dig it that there's supposed to be some kind of negative for playing a race like this, and the +3 LA and 5HD certainly is a negative, but I just get the feeling I should be able to make a monk that looks like an Armand and acts like an Armand and talks like an Armand but isn't level 9. Any chance I could get the experts here to come up with some kind of fair Savage Progression? Maybe 3HD instead of their dastardly 5? Maybe...no HD? =edit= Also, I do plan to abuse the crap out of UA's LA buyoff system, thanks for reminding me of that one.
Half_Dragon_Infernal 02-22-08, 07:17 PM	LA buyoff and giving them +2 LA is probably good enough.
ArochanoX 02-23-08, 07:32 AM	Any chance I could get the experts here to come up with some kind of fair Savage Progression? Maybe 3HD instead of their dastardly 5? Maybe...no HD? Savage progression for an armandish creature ECL RHD LA BAB Fort Ref Will NA Special 1 1 +0 +1 +0 +2 +2 +0 Stability, Darkvision 60ft 2 2 +0 +2 +0 +3 +3 +1 +2 Con, +2 Racial bonus on survival 3 2 +1 +2 +0 +3 +3 +1 +2 Dex, 2 claw attacks (1d3) 4 3 +1 +3 +1 +3 +3 +2 +2 Con 5 4 +1 +4 +1 +4 +4 +2 +2 Dex, +2 racial bonus on survival 6 4 +2 +4 +1 +4 +4 +3 +2 Con, Defencive Stance 7 5 +2 +5 +1 +4 +4 +3 +2 Dex, 2 claw attacks (1d4) 8 5 +3 +5 +1 +4 +4 +4 Burrow Speed 10ft The most imbalancing trait is the burrow speed. And other traits like +6 dex and con are just really good as is the +4NA. Monstrous humanoid racial HD don't lower the HD much as they're one of the best monster HD's out there (after Outsider and Dragon of course). So basically you could buy the whole thing with +4 LA and no racial HD. Note that the constitution bonus easily covers the LA hp-wise...
AtsuiShoto 02-23-08, 01:31 PM	2 HD and +2 LA. That's my vote. Thri-Kreen are about on the same level as these guys combat-wise.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 02-24-08, 01:32 PM	Okay, everyone's opinions crunched together, I'm gonna go with 4HD and 2LA with eventual buyoff. The progression I'll use will have burrow speed as its final buff, as presented by ArochanoX, Defensive Stance at the second level, and Stability at the first. I'll divide up the Dex and Con evenly among the 4, and they'll receive the one feat, the one ability point, and the +3 BaB they would normally receive from 5 HD, but essentially without that final largely nonessential HD. Basically, I'll be lowering that LA by one, and dropping that final Monstrous Humanoid HD. Thanks, Race boards!