Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phasics 07-03-07, 11:32 PM	Just a quick opinion. A race with no other noteworthy benefits apart from the ability to change size from (medium to small) or (medium to large) supernatural ability (i.e. can be stacked with other size changing effects). The change is considered permanent (for the purposes of not being able to dispel etc) and becomes their new base size until the user wants to change size again. Small <==> Medium <==> Large , this is the limit without magic or other means What LA would you think that deserves ? Also if the same ability took 1) 24hrs 2) 1hr 3) Full round action 4) Quick Action Would you assign a higher or lower or same LA ?
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-04-07, 12:45 AM	Just a quick opinion. A race with no other noteworthy benefits apart from the ability to change size from (medium to small) or (medium to large) supernatural ability (i.e. can be stacked with other size changing effects). The change is considered permanent (for the purposes of not being able to dispel etc) and becomes their new base size until the user wants to change size again. Small <==> Medium <==> Large , this is the limit without magic or other means What LA would you think that deserves ? Also if the same ability took 1) 24hrs 2) 1hr 3) Full round action 4) Quick Action Would you assign a higher or lower or same LA ? Higher. It grants the character flexibility, and flexibility is always powerful. However, there's no such thing as "just X ability". Abilities stack and overlap unpredictably with other abilities (that is, if you're making a point-based system), and you can never pin an LA on a single ability.
Phasics 07-04-07, 01:01 AM	For the sake of argument Call the race X Medium: As Medium creatures, have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. base land speed is 30 feet. The Above mentioned size changing ability Automatic Language: Common. and race X Favored Class: Druid, Monk LA = ??? What LA would you give that race ? NB I added the druid monk favoured claSS as I seen them with the most to gain (flexibility wise) from a larger or smaller base size (druid PHB II, larger forms higher natural attk dmg, monk also higher unarmed attk dmg, and both also benefit from becoming small for AC bonuses etc)
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-04-07, 01:06 AM	For the sake of argument Call the race X Medium: As Medium creatures, have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. base land speed is 30 feet. The Above mentioned size changing ability Automatic Language: Common. and race X Favored Class: Druid, Monk LA = ??? What LA would you give that race ? NB I added the druid monk favoured claSS as I seen them with the most to gain (flexibility wise) from a larger or smaller base size (druid PHB II, larger forms higher natural attk dmg, monk also higher unarmed attk dmg, and both also benefit from becoming small for AC bonuses etc) You mentioned five size-changing abilities. Which one are you referring to?
Cariyaga 07-04-07, 01:11 AM	Actually, only 4: Small to Medium, Medium to Small, Medium to Large, Large to Medium.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-04-07, 01:14 AM	Actually, only 4: Small to Medium, Medium to Small, Medium to Large, Large to Medium. No, those were after the initial description (which I believe was at will).
Phasics 07-04-07, 01:32 AM	You mentioned five size-changing abilities. Which one are you referring to? Size changing is linear i.e. Small <===> Medium <===> Large if character is currently small they first need to change to medium and then change to large. And we'll set this as a full round action each time the character changes his size by 1 step. So from a Medium start going to small, back to medium then to large then back to medium would take a total of 4 full round actions
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-04-07, 01:36 AM	Size changing is linear i.e. Small <===> Medium <===> Large if character is currently small they first need to change to medium and then change to large. And we'll set this as a full round action each time the character changes his size by 1 step. So from a Medium start going to small, back to medium then to large then back to medium would take a total of 4 full round actions So they basically get enlarge person and reduce person at will as a full-round action and self only? I would do that for simplicity, and to lessen the ability's impact. I'd peg it at LA +1. If you're making it a supernatural ability that stacks with everything, I'd make it LA +2 due to the abuse that would allow.
Polaris 07-04-07, 02:20 AM	Phasics, Assuming no other information, I'd say that ability alone is worth LA+1 given how advantagous size can be (either way) even if it simply duplicates enlarge/reduce person (no stacking). Given the abuse you could do given that it does stack at level one? LA+2 easy. -Polaris
Phasics 07-04-07, 02:23 AM	So they basically get enlarge person and reduce person at will as a full-round action and self only? I would do that for simplicity, and to lessen the ability's impact. I'd peg it at LA +1. If you're making it a supernatural ability that stacks with everything, I'd make it LA +2 due to the abuse that would allow. Yes would be self only , and gear would not scale up or scale down. Might look at imposition some conditional stuff if I go down the supernatural ability path just to reduce what I agree is probably an LA 2 e.g. 1-3 -2's to STR,DEX,CON (offset some of the physical benefits) and/or Perhaps increase changing time to 1min or even 10mins to remove the flexibility of its use in combat and/or Temporary attribute damage after a change while the body adjusts [medium to large -4DEX, -4CON , -4STR regain 1 point of each per round] [large to medium -4DEX, regain 1 point of each per round] [medium to small -4DEX regain 1 point of each per round] [small to medium -4DEX, -4CON , -4STR regain 1 point of each per round] and/or Fatigued of x rounds after a change due to the physical strain and/or Receive 1d4 non lethal dmg each change (which would limit excessive use at low levels)
Phasics 07-04-07, 02:33 AM	Phasics, Assuming no other information, I'd say that ability alone is worth LA+1 given how advantagous size can be (either way) even if it simply duplicates enlarge/reduce person (no stacking). Given the abuse you could do given that it does stack at level one? LA+2 easy. -Polaris True it would be a very gimmiky way of becoming HUGE at level 1 having it stack with simple enlarge person spell. Perhaps its best to not make it supernatural but just give it the condition that it function as enlarge/reduce person with same stacking restriction however it cannot be dispelled. (it is however susceptible to a reduce or enlarge spell when character size is the opposite, i.e. reduce would make a large character return to medium etc for duration of the spell)
Explosive_Zombie 07-04-07, 08:15 AM	You could always go the route of making it a non-humanoid race, such as Aberration, so the Enlarge Person wouldn't even work. I would just like to say that adding on addition ECL plus due to the fact that some thing can be "hacked" sounds like a ridiculous idea. That's more of a DM call versus what it's worth though standard mechanics. As is, I'd say +1, boarder line +2.
ArochanoX 07-04-07, 10:31 AM	Size-changing ability is quite powerful, especially if the change can be made as a full-round or standard action. Think it as both reduce person and enlarge person at will as a supernatural ability. Because of the enormous bonuses granted by large size and nice hide bonus granted by small size, I think it's LA +2. Maybe add a bit spice to it so it looks nicer +2 race. Also if you grant the size-sizing bonuses granted based on table in the MM, the size-changing ability becomes even stronger.
Platstud 07-04-07, 11:03 AM	I would suggest you limit it to either Medium -> Large or Medium -> Small. Also, I like the idea of it taking a long time(perhaps you must sleep for 8 hours to affect the change). If you do this and don't allow it to stack with Enlarge/Reduce Person, it could even be LA+0, or maybe LA+1 if you add some more features. The simple fact that you want it to stack with Enlarge/Reduce Person sounds to me as if you have some sort of exploit in mind. You may not, but it is a warning sign and your DM will likely think so as well.
Phasics 07-04-07, 10:06 PM	I would suggest you limit it to either Medium -> Large or Medium -> Small. Also, I like the idea of it taking a long time(perhaps you must sleep for 8 hours to affect the change). If you do this and don't allow it to stack with Enlarge/Reduce Person, it could even be LA+0, or maybe LA+1 if you add some more features. The simple fact that you want it to stack with Enlarge/Reduce Person sounds to me as if you have some sort of exploit in mind. You may not, but it is a warning sign and your DM will likely think so as well. You prob didn't read down further but I agreed after it was pointed out that having it stack with reduce enlarge would be a tad gimmiky as it would allow a huge size on a level 1 character. In fact I suggested that reduce/enlarge could be used to negate a change but couldn't be used to stack. As for attribute adjusting for size class changes that would def put it as a +2 in my mind as the STR bonus you'd get at level 1 would be crazy high. Honestly I could see such a race begin quite useful in tandem with a Druid PHB II class where the forms are based on your base size so a Level 1 druid with the predator form could take that form in a small medium or large variety instead of just a fixed medium form. Large Pred form in my mind deserves a +1 LA which is where I'm leaning towards with this. I think I just need to find the right balance with the speed of change to make it an LA 1 which I think can be done making it take longer than the average combat.
Captain_Kobold 07-05-07, 09:02 AM	Give it the stat changes as per Enlarge/reduce person. Not those listed for size changes in the Monster Manual. Changing size takes an hour of meditation (ie resting, not moving). The ability is supernatural and thus cannot be dispelled, is usable at will (within the time constraints required for changing.) It otherwise follows the rules for the Enlarge/reduce person spells. (Equipment increases in size along with the person, cannot use other size-altering effects.)
ArochanoX 07-05-07, 09:29 AM	Possible solution: Sizechanger Medium monstrous humanoid (shapechanger) [thus immune to enlarge and reduce person] Special Qualities: Size Change Languages: Automatic: Common and Sylvan, Bonus: Terran, Elvish, Gnomish, and Dwarven. Favored Class: Ranger Size Change (Su): Sizechanger can change his size category once a day at will. The change takes 1 hour of uninterrupted meditation and preparing. If the sizechanging is interrupted, sizechanger immediately stops sizechanging and reverts back to his previous form and he must start the meditation from the beginning again. When sizechanging, the sizechanger is healed to full hitpoints. Sizechanger can change only one size category at the time and he has access only sizes small and medium. Different sizes have different ability and size modifiers: Tiny Abilities: Str -6, Dex +4, Con -2 Size Bonuses: +2 on to hit rolls and AC, +8 bonus on hide checks and -8 penalty on grapple checks. (2,5ft face, 0ft reach) Small Abilities: Str -2, Dex +2, Con -2 Size Bonuses: +1 on to hit rolls and AC, +4 bonus on hide checks and -4 penalty on grapple checks. Medium Abilities: Size Bonuses: none Large Abilities: Str +2, Dex -2, Con +2 Size Bonuses: -1 on to hit rolls and AC, -4 penalty on hide checks and +4 bonus on grapple checks. (10ft face, 10ft reach) Huge Abilities: Str +6, Dex -4, Con +2 Size Bonuses: -2 on to hit rolls and AC, -8 penalty on hide checks and +8 bonus on grapple checks. (15ft face, 15ft reach) Racial Feats Extra Change Prerequirements: Base fortitude saving throw +5, Sizechanger Benefit: A sizechanger can change size one extra time per day. Special: A sizechanger can take this feat multiple times, its effects stack. Large Size Prerequirements Base fortitude saving throw +3, Sizechanger Benefit: A sizechanger can change size to large too gaining large shapechanger's attributes (see below) Tiny Size Prerequirements Base fortitude saving throw +7, Sizechanger, Endurance Benefit: A sizechanger can change size to tiny size too gaining tiny shapechanger's attributes (see below) Huge Size Prerequirements Base fortitude saving throw +8, Sizechanger, Endurance, Improved Toughness Benefit: A sizechanger can change size to huge size too gaining tiny shapechanger's attributes (see below)
Phasics 07-06-07, 01:11 AM	Possible solution: Sizechanger Medium monstrous humanoid (shapechanger) [thus immune to enlarge and reduce person] Special Qualities: Size Change Languages: Automatic: Common and Sylvan, Bonus: Terran, Elvish, Gnomish, and Dwarven. Favored Class: Ranger Size Change (Su): Sizechanger can change his size category once a day at will. The change takes 1 hour of uninterrupted meditation and preparing. If the sizechanging is interrupted, sizechanger immediately stops sizechanging and reverts back to his previous form and he must start the meditation from the beginning again. When sizechanging, the sizechanger is healed to full hitpoints. Sizechanger can change only one size category at the time and he has access only sizes small and medium. Different sizes have different ability and size modifiers: Tiny Abilities: Str -6, Dex +4, Con -2 Size Bonuses: +2 on to hit rolls and AC, +8 bonus on hide checks and -8 penalty on grapple checks. (2,5ft face, 0ft reach) Small Abilities: Str -2, Dex +2, Con -2 Size Bonuses: +1 on to hit rolls and AC, +4 bonus on hide checks and -4 penalty on grapple checks. Medium Abilities: Size Bonuses: none Large Abilities: Str +2, Dex -2, Con +2 Size Bonuses: -1 on to hit rolls and AC, -4 penalty on hide checks and +4 bonus on grapple checks. (10ft face, 10ft reach) Huge Abilities: Str +6, Dex -4, Con +2 Size Bonuses: -2 on to hit rolls and AC, -8 penalty on hide checks and +8 bonus on grapple checks. (15ft face, 15ft reach) Racial Feats Extra Change Prerequirements: Base fortitude saving throw +5, Sizechanger Benefit: A sizechanger can change size one extra time per day. Special: A sizechanger can take this feat multiple times, its effects stack. Large Size Prerequirements Base fortitude saving throw +3, Sizechanger Benefit: A sizechanger can change size to large too gaining large shapechanger's attributes (see below) Tiny Size Prerequirements Base fortitude saving throw +7, Sizechanger, Endurance Benefit: A sizechanger can change size to tiny size too gaining tiny shapechanger's attributes (see below) Huge Size Prerequirements Base fortitude saving throw +8, Sizechanger, Endurance, Improved Toughness Benefit: A sizechanger can change size to huge size too gaining tiny shapechanger's attributes (see below) Interesting I like the racial feat ideas as it give the flex later on, would you give such a race an LA of 1 ? and with the extra change feat I was thinking either give it 2 times per day for each time taken or make the feat get an extra 1d4 times rolled at the beginning of the day (second time would make it 2d4 etc) Another racial Feat I could see working would be, I've made the reqs sequential so the character wont have enough feats to do both, it will be either slow with large size variety or fast with small size variety. Rapid Change Prerequirements: Base fortitude saving throw +5, Sizechanger Benefit: A sizechanger can change size in 10mins instead of 1hr however does not regain any HP (can still choose to take 1hr to change and will recieve full HP). Special: A sizechanger can take this feat a second time and will be fully healed after a 10min change. Strained Change Prerequirements: Base fortitude saving throw +7, Sizechanger, Rapid Change Benefit: A sizechanger can change size in 1min instead of 10mins however does not regain any HP (can still choose to take 1hr (or 10mins with 2nd rapid feat) to change and will receive full HP). Must save DC20 vs becoming fatigued for 1d4 rounds Special: A sizechanger can take this feat a second time to eliminate the chance of becoming fatigued. Tearing Change Prerequirements: Base fortitude saving throw +10, Sizechanger, Rapid Change, Strained Change Benefit: A sizechanger can change size as a full round action instead of 1mins however takes 1d20 damage due to the great forces involved with such a fast change (must also save vs becoming fatigued for 1d4 round DC 25 Special: A sizechanger can take this feat a second time to eliminate the chance of becoming fatigued and reduce the damage to 1d10.
ArochanoX 07-06-07, 03:37 AM	LA +1 souds appropiate. Though for the feat "extra change", it really should be only +1 change per day. Ability to change and gain full hitpoints in an hour is quite powerful. Even at later levels, because maximum hit points and thus hit points healed grow as the character levels up. The other feats of yours look nice. Though I'd give them some more prerequirements like Iron Will or ability focus: size change (The ability focus for size change is completely worthless and lost feat, but changing as a fullround action is really powerful.) Also changing in one minute is worthless, because a creature can't use it in combat and out of combat it's essentially the same (timewise) as to change in 10 mins. Also the damage done by tearing change is too small. At level 18ish, a fighter archetype character has about 250 hp. I made some adjustments: Rapid Change Prerequirements: Base fortitude saving throw +5, Iron Will, Sizechanger Benefit: A sizechanger can change size in 10 minutes instead of 1hr. He is healed to full hitpoints during the change as normal. Must save fort DC 25 vs becoming fatigued for 20 +1d4x10 minutes. Strained Change Prerequirements: Base fortitude saving throw +10, Sizechanger, Rapid Change, Iron Will, Ability focus: size change Benefit: A sizechanger can change size in full-round action, that provokes attacks of opportunity, instead of 10 minutes. However he does not regain any lost hit points (he can still choose to change in 10 minutes to regain all lost hit points). Must save fort DC 30 vs becoming fatigued for 1d10 rounds. He takes 5d20 damage due to the great forces involved with such a fast change.
Phasics 07-06-07, 08:04 AM	LA +1 souds appropiate. Though for the feat "extra change", it really should be only +1 change per day. Ability to change and gain full hitpoints in an hour is quite powerful. Even at later levels, because maximum hit points and thus hit points healed grow as the character levels up. The other feats of yours look nice. Though I'd give them some more prerequirements like Iron Will or ability focus: size change (The ability focus for size change is completely worthless and lost feat, but changing as a fullround action is really powerful.) Also changing in one minute is worthless, because a creature can't use it in combat and out of combat it's essentially the same (timewise) as to change in 10 mins. Also the damage done by tearing change is too small. At level 18ish, a fighter archetype character has about 250 hp. I made some adjustments: Rapid Change Prerequirements: Base fortitude saving throw +5, Iron Will, Sizechanger Benefit: A sizechanger can change size in 10 minutes instead of 1hr. He is healed to full hitpoints during the change as normal. Must save fort DC 25 vs becoming fatigued for 20 +1d4x10 minutes. Strained Change Prerequirements: Base fortitude saving throw +10, Sizechanger, Rapid Change, Iron Will, Ability focus: size change Benefit: A sizechanger can change size in full-round action, that provokes attacks of opportunity, instead of 10 minutes. However he does not regain any lost hit points (he can still choose to change in 10 minutes to regain all lost hit points). Must save fort DC 30 vs becoming fatigued for 1d10 rounds. He takes 5d20 damage due to the great forces involved with such a fast change. again I'm liking your amendments , as it performs as I think it should and is restrictive in the sense that the race can be taken down very distinct paths and specialize into fast changing eventually very powerful in combat, or a wide variety of size changing allowing Tiny to Huge which can be tailored in a similar way a wizard would tailor spells going into a semi-known situation. Or a mix with multiple changes per day. I can see a solid choice for a mix would be the Large feat, 2-3 x extra changes/day and rapid change feat. Would offer great healing between multiple combats as well as the advantage of being Large as required. I'm also considering a feat that would grant alot more changes per day but would lose the healing ability unless full hour was taken. so that character could scout in a small/tiny form then scale up before an encounter and then revert back again after the encounter. the downside is no free healing the upside is more freedom to tailor size to situation. I'm also considering making a racial class which would really flesh out the abilities, but then I think perhaps it would be better to add some racial levels instead and some scaling ability that go up with racial hit die instead of trying to cram too much into feats or keeping the feats but giving some of them for free with racial hit dice. (in effect making LA2,3 4 etc versions of the same race), and fleshing out some racial levels with some non-humanoid forms with faster land speed or natural attacks etc etc
YabaTheWhat 07-06-07, 09:06 AM	So they basically get enlarge person and reduce person at will as a full-round action and self only? I would do that for simplicity, and to lessen the ability's impact. I'd peg it at LA +1. That sounds right. Using the spells-at-will, each one would be worth 20 FP individually. Since they can't be used simultaneously, that could be dropped a bit, but not much, since they do still get all the advantages of both. Combine that with the increased casting time, and it's probably 30 FP overall for the ability. Keep in mind that it's likely to draw attacks of opportunity by the simple fact that it takes a full round to perform. If you're making it a supernatural ability that stacks with everything, I'd make it LA +2 due to the abuse that would allow. For this one, it matters a lot whether the creature's gear resizes with it. If the answer is no, then just take the most beneficial form (large with reach), and add a few situational bonuses appropriate to a size change (effectively free squeezing and hide bonuses). That will still work out to LA+1 overall, if the race has no other significant benefits. If their gear does resize with them, then all the benefits need to be counted, minus a small allowance for not being used simultaneously. Take all the benefits of being large with none of the drawbacks (which, for easier cost evaluation, would be Powerful Build plus Reach), and add about half value for all the benefits of being small (+1 to hit & AC, hide bonus, squeezing). This works out in the LA+2 range if no other significant benefits are applied. The reason gear matters so much is a matter of inconvenience. If gear does not resize with them, then their most likely course of action is to remain Large most of the time, only slimming down when they need to slip through a gap or hide in the brush, and can take the time to drag their gear behind them. If they expect to remain small for a while, they'll need to switch to a different set of equipment (which would be reasonable for a Large creature to carry), and leave the large-sized gear behind.
okaynowa 07-06-07, 11:02 AM	I like the Rapid Change and Strained Change feats there-- I'm a fan of using the fatigue rules as balancing factors. This thread is of interest to me, because I've been trying out various approaches to creating a decent spriggan. The spriggan, for those of you without the Fiend Folio, is a Small gnome-like fey that can assume Large size at will. The Fiend Folio approach was to present two different stat blocks, one for each size. Convenient for an NPC foe, but not so good for a PC. I started by converting the spriggan from a Fey race to a gnomish racial feat/prestige class, but that's the easy part and not of interest here. The size change is what makes a spriggan a spriggan, but I don't want to open the path to exploitation. I thought about what I wanted from the size change: Greater combat effectiveness for being big A speedy change for surprise tactics Scariness for being a freaky big gnome What I did not want from the size change: A whole lot of changes to the character sheet The character spending all day Large (no hulking hurler!) What I ended up cobbling together was this: Spriggan Size (Su): As a swift action, the gnome turns into a towering spriggan, gaining a 10 ft space and 10 ft reach. The gnome gains a size bonus to melee damage rolls equal to its hit dice, and is counted as a Large creature for Grapple and Intimidation skill checks. The gnome's other statistics (including Speed, Armor Class, and attack bonus) do not change. The gnome's gear changes apparent size with it, but retains its original attributes (the spriggan's weapons still roll Small weapon dice). The idea here is that the change is part transmutation, part gnomish illusion. I circumvent extensive changes to the character sheet by ruling that the size penalties and physical improvements (to muscle, skin, and bone) mostly cancel each other out. The character does more damage in melee (the hit dice based bonus) without actually gaining a higher Strength score-- so no lugging around Huge battleaxes, and grappling is still risky. The net effect is a very specific set of combat advantages the player (and DM) can apply without having to lift a pencil. I've considered two ways to limit how long the gnome can maintain the spriggan's size. One is to give the ability a shifter or rage-like duration: 3+Con bonus rounds, X times per day. Gnomes usually have a decent Con bonus, and they'll really only want this ability for combat situations, so that's probably sufficient. The other alternative is to say that the transformation is at will, but maintaining it requires a swift action every round. The concentration angle would have the pleasant effect of forcing a player to choose between maintaining spriggan size and, say, casting a quickened spell in any given round (or using certain ToB abilities). Not a perfect system yet, but something that will work for my (very campaign specific) purposes.
Bihlbo 07-06-07, 11:11 AM	If the race doesn't get extra feats and skills, then I don't think it needs a LA at all. You're talking about a spell-like ability that has limited utility, and that is going to rarely need to be used more than a handful of times per day. There are plenty of feats that do the same thing (the Reserve feats especially), and you're giving them this ability in place of 2 feats if you compare the race to humans.
Phasics 07-09-07, 08:11 PM	I like the Rapid Change and Strained Change feats there-- I'm a fan of using the fatigue rules as balancing factors. This thread is of interest to me, because I've been trying out various approaches to creating a decent spriggan. The spriggan, for those of you without the Fiend Folio, is a Small gnome-like fey that can assume Large size at will. The Fiend Folio approach was to present two different stat blocks, one for each size. Convenient for an NPC foe, but not so good for a PC. I started by converting the spriggan from a Fey race to a gnomish racial feat/prestige class, but that's the easy part and not of interest here. The size change is what makes a spriggan a spriggan, but I don't want to open the path to exploitation. I thought about what I wanted from the size change: Greater combat effectiveness for being big A speedy change for surprise tactics Scariness for being a freaky big gnome What I did not want from the size change: A whole lot of changes to the character sheet The character spending all day Large (no hulking hurler!) What I ended up cobbling together was this: The idea here is that the change is part transmutation, part gnomish illusion. I circumvent extensive changes to the character sheet by ruling that the size penalties and physical improvements (to muscle, skin, and bone) mostly cancel each other out. The character does more damage in melee (the hit dice based bonus) without actually gaining a higher Strength score-- so no lugging around Huge battleaxes, and grappling is still risky. The net effect is a very specific set of combat advantages the player (and DM) can apply without having to lift a pencil. I've considered two ways to limit how long the gnome can maintain the spriggan's size. One is to give the ability a shifter or rage-like duration: 3+Con bonus rounds, X times per day. Gnomes usually have a decent Con bonus, and they'll really only want this ability for combat situations, so that's probably sufficient. The other alternative is to say that the transformation is at will, but maintaining it requires a swift action every round. The concentration angle would have the pleasant effect of forcing a player to choose between maintaining spriggan size and, say, casting a quickened spell in any given round (or using certain ToB abilities). Not a perfect system yet, but something that will work for my (very campaign specific) purposes. Interesting, might have to grab me a copy of the fiend folio