Level Adjustment for Rediculous Stats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Level Adjustment for Rediculous Stats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
08-11-07, 11:51 PM I wasn't sure where exactly to put this, as it covers many topics, but since level adjustment is primarily a racial thing, I came here. My players love to play characters with powerful stats, and after looking over the fiction our game is based on, I can find no reason to deny my players the powerful stats they want. I, as a DM and a long time player, know that playing "average" characters can be fun, and I'm aware that a character's class, levels, and equipment can make them powerful even with lower stats, but there's something missing about that.

But I don't want to unbalance the game; apparently, the game was balanced against the default array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8; a conservative/economical 25 point buy). Thus, by boosting the player's stats, I'm technically reducing the challenge they'll receive from standard fights. Sure, I can just increase the stats of the monsters they fight, and that's what I did the last time I ran a high stats game, but there was something that was unfulfilling about that (especially when some creatures, like dragons, get more benefit out of boosting their Con than players do, since many monsters have far more HD than their CR).

The only thing I have to go off of are a few numbers from the Monster Manual. Apparently, all monsters are designed with a "normal" array (10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11; or a moderate 15 point buy). Monsters can also be built with a variable array (8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13; also a 15 point buy). Neither of these alter a creature's challenge rating. If you put a 25 point buy on a monster, it boosts their CR by 1; all unclassed and NPC classed monsters have the 15 point buy, while all classed monsters have a 25 point buy (this point buy doesn't alter their CR; it is an assumed part of having PC class levels).

So, it seems that boosting the point value offered by 10 boosts the creature's CR by 1; conceivably, you could also say that boosting the point buy by 10 boosts their level adjustment by 1? But point buy offers diminishing returns, so I'm not sure this works.

I'm asking this because I'm seeking a way to be able to continue to use the CR system without having to alter every monster to be on par with high powered characters.
sensestaker
08-12-07, 12:20 AM How do your PC's determine their ability scores, and how powerful are they?

If they are high enough, and you don't want to rescore all monsters, applying an LA to the PC's is an option, but be warned it can hinder casters. Melee combatants probably won't care as high stats can balance out penalties to BAB and HD, but the same isn't true of caster level. LA +1 isn't such a big deal, but once you start moving higher it can quickly become a problem.

Probably the easiest answer would be to allow strong but not godly abilities (even as high as 36 point buy can be reasonable) and allow non-core races at the cost of their appropriate LA for players that want more.
Thomar_of_Uointer
08-12-07, 12:45 AM The game was not playtested with the elite array. It was tested with the 4d6 drop lowest method. The average for 4d6 drop lowest is 12.25, which comes out to 25 point buy. However, most of the time characters will have stats that vary around that point, and due to the fact that higher ability scores scale their point costs differently than lower ones, 28 point buy is more realistic.

Point buy is definitely the way to go. You don't want to punish a player for an entire campaign due to a few bad rolls. Most players prefer it, as it gives them more control over their abilities.

I'd recommend 32 point buy, to keep players happy while still keeping sane when it comes to power. In addition to letting players have fun playing heroes, you don't have to worry as much about killing off the party with a few bad rolls, but you can still expect to challenge them with more difficult encounters. 32 point buy allows for a min-maxxed character with two 18s and four 8s, or a balanced character of 16 16 14 12 10 8, and both work well depending on what kind of build the player is going for.

I seriously have had players yell at me when I forced point buy on them. I think I had one case where someone insisted, so I let the player roll 4d6 drop lowest in front of me, and he ended up with worse than 32 point buy. I was nice and let him use 32 point buy anyways. The one I regret doing was retroactively imposing point buy, though I was a young DM at the time and didn't know better ("why the **** did you edit my character sheet last night!?")

Really, it just comes down to what's good for your gaming group. You can go ahead and use 48 point buy without having to recalculate monster stats, just throw more monsters at the party. If you're looking to impose more of an atmosphere of dread, fear, and peril, 25 point buy may be just the thing for you. I'm not familiar with your group, so I can't make that call for you.
Xeviat-DM
08-12-07, 12:56 AM I've been running point buy ever since my second campaign, and I'll never consider using anything but point buy. I've bounced back and forth between 25 points and 32 points. I usually consider 32 to be more than fair, but it does create slightly more powerful characters than usual.

What I've done in the past is increase the encounter level of the encounters they face by +1, and reduce the CR and treasure accordingly; I didn't want to give them imposed LA's because I was worried about some mid and high CR monsters with abilities like Spell Resistance and other abilities which generally require characters to be of a level equal to their CR to be able to face them reasonably.

I'm just looking for discourse on how much of a bonus to ability scores would be worth a higher LA, if only for Encounter Level building.
Roog
08-12-07, 03:11 AM The game was not playtested with the elite array. It was tested with the 4d6 drop lowest method.

Some people seem to be saying that it was playtested with the elite array. To clear up any confusion, would you be able to give a reference for what char-gen method was used?
Aloki
08-12-07, 04:12 AM You know what is really fun? 5d6 drop the lowest two, it doesn't give you the uber ones you get when you can get with a 35-point buy or whatever. Chances are, you will roll fairly high, but there is still the chance that you can still get a crappy roll. I really find that the 5d6 is one of the best methods of attribute setting, even for an average powered campaign.
Thomar_of_Uointer
08-12-07, 09:44 PM Some people seem to be saying that it was playtested with the elite array. To clear up any confusion, would you be able to give a reference for what char-gen method was used?

The character creation method given in the PHB is 4d6 drop lowest (PHB page 6).

I've been running point buy ever since my second campaign, and I'll never consider using anything but point buy. I've bounced back and forth between 25 points and 32 points. I usually consider 32 to be more than fair, but it does create slightly more powerful characters than usual.

What I've done in the past is increase the encounter level of the encounters they face by +1, and reduce the CR and treasure accordingly; I didn't want to give them imposed LA's because I was worried about some mid and high CR monsters with abilities like Spell Resistance and other abilities which generally require characters to be of a level equal to their CR to be able to face them reasonably.

I'm just looking for discourse on how much of a bonus to ability scores would be worth a higher LA, if only for Encounter Level building.

I would say it's only worth a higher LA if you're intentionally playing with characters of differing ability scores. ECL can be treated as being relative if everyone has it, right?

If you want to make leveling harder to do (which may be the issue you're worried about), then just give the players a certain percentage less experience for each encounter. I think the DMG has rules for this sort of thing. I usually just throw more encounters per day at the party rather than jacking up the EL, as some kinds of monsters set their CR based on abilities like DR and save-or-dies instead of hit points and damage output. Throwing more powerful monsters at the party can result in TPKs, you're better off trying their endurance (which is based mostly on ability scores).
Roog
08-12-07, 11:54 PM The character creation method given in the PHB is 4d6 drop lowest (PHB page 6).

Yes, but that does not say what was used in play testing. I'm asking because other people have said specifically that although "4d6 drop lowest" is the standard method in the PHB, the elite array was and is used for play testing.
Thomar_of_Uointer
08-12-07, 11:56 PM Yes, but that does not say what was used in play testing. I'm asking because other people have said specifically that although "4d6 drop lowest" is the standard method in the PHB, the elite array was and is used for play testing.

Okay, where's your reference then? Yes, I don't have any official reference or anything, but I think the PHB is a bit more concrete than postings on the Wizards.Community boards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 08-11-07, 11:51 PM	I wasn't sure where exactly to put this, as it covers many topics, but since level adjustment is primarily a racial thing, I came here. My players love to play characters with powerful stats, and after looking over the fiction our game is based on, I can find no reason to deny my players the powerful stats they want. I, as a DM and a long time player, know that playing "average" characters can be fun, and I'm aware that a character's class, levels, and equipment can make them powerful even with lower stats, but there's something missing about that. But I don't want to unbalance the game; apparently, the game was balanced against the default array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8; a conservative/economical 25 point buy). Thus, by boosting the player's stats, I'm technically reducing the challenge they'll receive from standard fights. Sure, I can just increase the stats of the monsters they fight, and that's what I did the last time I ran a high stats game, but there was something that was unfulfilling about that (especially when some creatures, like dragons, get more benefit out of boosting their Con than players do, since many monsters have far more HD than their CR). The only thing I have to go off of are a few numbers from the Monster Manual. Apparently, all monsters are designed with a "normal" array (10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11; or a moderate 15 point buy). Monsters can also be built with a variable array (8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13; also a 15 point buy). Neither of these alter a creature's challenge rating. If you put a 25 point buy on a monster, it boosts their CR by 1; all unclassed and NPC classed monsters have the 15 point buy, while all classed monsters have a 25 point buy (this point buy doesn't alter their CR; it is an assumed part of having PC class levels). So, it seems that boosting the point value offered by 10 boosts the creature's CR by 1; conceivably, you could also say that boosting the point buy by 10 boosts their level adjustment by 1? But point buy offers diminishing returns, so I'm not sure this works. I'm asking this because I'm seeking a way to be able to continue to use the CR system without having to alter every monster to be on par with high powered characters.
sensestaker 08-12-07, 12:20 AM	How do your PC's determine their ability scores, and how powerful are they? If they are high enough, and you don't want to rescore all monsters, applying an LA to the PC's is an option, but be warned it can hinder casters. Melee combatants probably won't care as high stats can balance out penalties to BAB and HD, but the same isn't true of caster level. LA +1 isn't such a big deal, but once you start moving higher it can quickly become a problem. Probably the easiest answer would be to allow strong but not godly abilities (even as high as 36 point buy can be reasonable) and allow non-core races at the cost of their appropriate LA for players that want more.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-12-07, 12:45 AM	The game was not playtested with the elite array. It was tested with the 4d6 drop lowest method. The average for 4d6 drop lowest is 12.25, which comes out to 25 point buy. However, most of the time characters will have stats that vary around that point, and due to the fact that higher ability scores scale their point costs differently than lower ones, 28 point buy is more realistic. Point buy is definitely the way to go. You don't want to punish a player for an entire campaign due to a few bad rolls. Most players prefer it, as it gives them more control over their abilities. I'd recommend 32 point buy, to keep players happy while still keeping sane when it comes to power. In addition to letting players have fun playing heroes, you don't have to worry as much about killing off the party with a few bad rolls, but you can still expect to challenge them with more difficult encounters. 32 point buy allows for a min-maxxed character with two 18s and four 8s, or a balanced character of 16 16 14 12 10 8, and both work well depending on what kind of build the player is going for. I seriously have had players yell at me when I forced point buy on them. I think I had one case where someone insisted, so I let the player roll 4d6 drop lowest in front of me, and he ended up with worse than 32 point buy. I was nice and let him use 32 point buy anyways. The one I regret doing was retroactively imposing point buy, though I was a young DM at the time and didn't know better ("why the **** did you edit my character sheet last night!?") Really, it just comes down to what's good for your gaming group. You can go ahead and use 48 point buy without having to recalculate monster stats, just throw more monsters at the party. If you're looking to impose more of an atmosphere of dread, fear, and peril, 25 point buy may be just the thing for you. I'm not familiar with your group, so I can't make that call for you.
Xeviat-DM 08-12-07, 12:56 AM	I've been running point buy ever since my second campaign, and I'll never consider using anything but point buy. I've bounced back and forth between 25 points and 32 points. I usually consider 32 to be more than fair, but it does create slightly more powerful characters than usual. What I've done in the past is increase the encounter level of the encounters they face by +1, and reduce the CR and treasure accordingly; I didn't want to give them imposed LA's because I was worried about some mid and high CR monsters with abilities like Spell Resistance and other abilities which generally require characters to be of a level equal to their CR to be able to face them reasonably. I'm just looking for discourse on how much of a bonus to ability scores would be worth a higher LA, if only for Encounter Level building.
Roog 08-12-07, 03:11 AM	The game was not playtested with the elite array. It was tested with the 4d6 drop lowest method. Some people seem to be saying that it was playtested with the elite array. To clear up any confusion, would you be able to give a reference for what char-gen method was used?
Aloki 08-12-07, 04:12 AM	You know what is really fun? 5d6 drop the lowest two, it doesn't give you the uber ones you get when you can get with a 35-point buy or whatever. Chances are, you will roll fairly high, but there is still the chance that you can still get a crappy roll. I really find that the 5d6 is one of the best methods of attribute setting, even for an average powered campaign.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-12-07, 09:44 PM	Some people seem to be saying that it was playtested with the elite array. To clear up any confusion, would you be able to give a reference for what char-gen method was used? The character creation method given in the PHB is 4d6 drop lowest (PHB page 6). I've been running point buy ever since my second campaign, and I'll never consider using anything but point buy. I've bounced back and forth between 25 points and 32 points. I usually consider 32 to be more than fair, but it does create slightly more powerful characters than usual. What I've done in the past is increase the encounter level of the encounters they face by +1, and reduce the CR and treasure accordingly; I didn't want to give them imposed LA's because I was worried about some mid and high CR monsters with abilities like Spell Resistance and other abilities which generally require characters to be of a level equal to their CR to be able to face them reasonably. I'm just looking for discourse on how much of a bonus to ability scores would be worth a higher LA, if only for Encounter Level building. I would say it's only worth a higher LA if you're intentionally playing with characters of differing ability scores. ECL can be treated as being relative if everyone has it, right? If you want to make leveling harder to do (which may be the issue you're worried about), then just give the players a certain percentage less experience for each encounter. I think the DMG has rules for this sort of thing. I usually just throw more encounters per day at the party rather than jacking up the EL, as some kinds of monsters set their CR based on abilities like DR and save-or-dies instead of hit points and damage output. Throwing more powerful monsters at the party can result in TPKs, you're better off trying their endurance (which is based mostly on ability scores).
Roog 08-12-07, 11:54 PM	The character creation method given in the PHB is 4d6 drop lowest (PHB page 6). Yes, but that does not say what was used in play testing. I'm asking because other people have said specifically that although "4d6 drop lowest" is the standard method in the PHB, the elite array was and is used for play testing.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-12-07, 11:56 PM	Yes, but that does not say what was used in play testing. I'm asking because other people have said specifically that although "4d6 drop lowest" is the standard method in the PHB, the elite array was and is used for play testing. Okay, where's your reference then? Yes, I don't have any official reference or anything, but I think the PHB is a bit more concrete than postings on the Wizards.Community boards.