level adjustments for PCs? [Archive] - Wizards Community

level adjustments for PCs? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
david6477
02-28-07, 01:40 PM This is probably a really easy question, but I'm tired of differing opinions at our table, and thought I would just get an answer from those who should know the rules inside and out! I did try to search the forum, but didn't come up with the answer that I need (probably 'cause everyone else gets it already).

How do level adjustments work with PCs? I've got a player that wants a half-ogre PC. I know, from Races of Destiny, that there is a +2 Level Adjustment. What does this mean in terms of HD?

Basically, I would like to know how PCs based on races with level adjustments are built. For example, in order to build a level 8 barbarian half-ogre, how many HD does the PC have? 6, or 8? Of course, the player would love 8, but some others, myself included, think that this makes the PC a little over-powered. He now has alot of muscle, and can deal out alot of damage, but has comparable hp to a human level 8 barbarian. Granted, the half-ogre is only a level 6 barbarian.

I've read the level adjustment section in the DM's guide, but for some reason am not able to get my answer from reading it. It says: "Add a monster's level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature's effective character level, or ECL" (page 172). What's the Hit Dice mentioned here?

So, in much confusion, I would love for someone to set us straight!

Thanks!
skywyze
02-28-07, 01:46 PM The LA of 2 means that the character is treated as 2 levels higher for purposes of XP, loot found, calculating CRs and so on. So if this character was level 8 total, the sum of all his HD and class levels would be 6. Level adjustment is generally not worth it for casters, but for fighters, barbarians etc, it can be a very powerful asset.

Let's say everyone in a group begins at level 5. That means everyone has an ECL of 5. If someone wants to play a drow (LA +2), they'd only get 3 class levels to play around with. But for all intents and purposes, they'd be treated as having 5 levels.

Does that answer your question?
david6477
02-28-07, 01:52 PM I think so. Let me make sure I understand.

With the drow example at ECL 5, they have 3 class levels, and only 3 hit die. Correct?

In this scenario, if the drow makes ECL 6, they don't get a feat, correct (at least the feat granted at every three levels)? Feats are based on the number of HD, if I remember correctly. It is actually this point that has the player all up in arms. Well, that and his hp.
InkBlot
02-28-07, 01:59 PM That is correct. An ECL 6 drow does not get a feat that level.

ECL = Class Levels + Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment

Only class levels and racial hit dice count towards feats, ability boosts, skills, hit points, and effects (like sleep) that depend on hit dice.

ECL is used to determine experiance points, and what kind of encounters the character can handle.
skywyze
02-28-07, 02:02 PM I think so. Let me make sure I understand.

With the drow example at ECL 5, they have 3 class levels, and only 3 hit die. Correct?

In this scenario, if the drow makes ECL 6, they don't get a feat, correct (at least the feat granted at every three levels)? Feats are based on the number of HD, if I remember correctly. It is actually this point that has the player all up in arms. Well, that and his hp.Correct. Since he'd only get 4 actual levels at ECL 6, he'd get an attribute increase, as you do every 4 HD, but no feat. He would, however, still get XP as a 6th level character and would drain the party's XP pool in the same way as a 6th level character does.

Level adjustment is supposed to be a penalty for all the advantages that playing these races give. In some cases it's worth it, in other cases it's not. If your friend cares more about feats than strength, he should play a human rather than a half-ogre. Because as an ogre, his feat progression would forever be 2 levels behind everybody else's.

Think of Hit Dice as just another class. You take levels in it just as you would any other class. If a creature has 16 HD and 4 class levels, he has 20 levels worth of hit points, feats, ability score increases etc. A character could be a 16th level astral deva/4th level fighter and thus have 20 HD = 20 class levels. They're not that different.
david6477
02-28-07, 02:05 PM So, in this case, for a PC, what is the "Racial Hit Die?" I assume for the level 5 drow with 3 levels in fighter that it is zero, otherwise it's ECL wouldn't be 5. Is it only non-zero when I am trying to come up with an ECL of a creature from the monster manual and it lists the hit die for it (eg. 5d6+7)?
skywyze
02-28-07, 02:06 PM So, in this case, for a PC, what is the "Racial Hit Die?" I assume for the level 5 drow with 3 levels in fighter that it is zero, otherwise it's ECL wouldn't be 5. Is it only non-zero when I am trying to come up with an ECL of a creature from the monster manual and it lists the hit die for it (eg. 5d6+7)?

I believe so, yes.
david6477
02-28-07, 02:12 PM Thanks so much for setting us straight! I think I have a much better understanding of level adjustments now and how it affects how a PC progresses.

Thanks again!
Neutronium_Dragon
02-28-07, 02:30 PM An exception is that 1-HD humanoids in the MM don't actually have racial hit dice. Their HD is the result of having one level in an NPC class, typically warrior. A PC won't (usually) have that NPC class level, so the HD is dropped.
pukunui
02-28-07, 05:29 PM Thanks so much for setting us straight! I think I have a much better understanding of level adjustments now and how it affects how a PC progresses.

Thanks again!
The matter of what "racial hit dice" are has not been addressed adequately, so I thought I would jump in and further help to remove any confusion you might have.

In this particular instance, you can ignore that term because half-ogres are humanoids with only 1 racial hit die. The rule is that humanoids with 1 HD replace that hit die with their first class level. However, anything with 2 HD (even if it's humanoid) or more keeps those hit dice. You then have to add class levels and level adjustments onto those hit dice.

By way of example, let us compare the half-ogre, the lizardfolk, and the minotaur. The lizardfolk has LA +1, the half-ogre and minotaur LA +2. Additionally, the minotaur and lizardfolk both have multiple racial hit dice.

A half-ogre with 6 class levels = ECL 8 (6 lvls + 2 LA)
A lizardfolk with 6 class levels = ECL 9 (6 lvls + 2 HD + 1 LA)
A minotaur with 6 class levels = ECL 14!! (6 lvls + 6 HD + 2 LA)

Basically, you have to look at the monster's entry in the MM and factor in any racial hit dice (usually the 2nd line in the creature's stat block) on top of the LA and class levels.

Hope that clears it all up.

Cheers,
Jonny
DocSpartan
02-28-07, 08:42 PM So basically LA's make it impossible to play a race with an LA from first level?
calronmoonflower
02-28-07, 09:23 PM So basically LA's make it impossible to play a race with an LA from first level?

No quite. Their are monsterous classes that stat you out as a monstrous race without the full abilities of that race. As you gain levels you gain the abilities of that races and sometimes a HD and Skill Points.
pukunui
02-28-07, 10:01 PM So basically LA's make it impossible to play a race with an LA from first level?

No quite. Their are monsterous classes that stat you out as a monstrous race without the full abilities of that race. As you gain levels you gain the abilities of that races and sometimes a HD and Skill Points.

Alternatively, if we're talking a low LA/no racial hit dice race (e.g. tiefling), you could let someone play one at first level with 0 XP but in order to reach 2nd level, they'd have to earn the XP required to get to 3rd level and so on. That's how they do it in Neverwinter Nights 2.

You'd start out slightly more powerful but you'd end up a level or so behind the rest of the party, so it balances itself out.
AMGriffin
03-01-07, 01:07 PM http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_races_page.htm

That has converted LA into a class progression for a few races.

Careful though, the races are a little bit unbalanced.
pres_man
03-01-07, 06:34 PM Alternatively, if we're talking a low LA/no racial hit dice race (e.g. tiefling), you could let someone play one at first level with 0 XP but in order to reach 2nd level, they'd have to earn the XP required to get to 3rd level and so on. That's how they do it in Neverwinter Nights 2.

You'd start out slightly more powerful but you'd end up a level or so behind the rest of the party, so it balances itself out.
Or you could do what I do, treat them as having negative levels (-5 hp, min 1, -1 attack, skills, ability checks, saves) until they overcome their LA.

So for the tiefling, they'd get all of the abilites, but for level 1 they take -5 hp (min of 1), -1 attack, saves, skills, and checks. When they reach 2nd level they lose this negative level.
shamurai7
03-02-07, 12:39 PM here is the house rule my 2 groups use and everyone loves it!

example with la 2 race starting party at first level

la 2 race at first level gets:

+1 HD for determining character level
1d4 hp
low progression on all saves
low progression on Base attack bonus (as wizard)
2 skill points + int mod
counts toward determining bonus feats
counts toward determining bonus ability points.

at 2nd level they would gain the same thing, and at third level thay can actually choose a base class to level in and gain those benefits. Of course put a cap on max la like max la of 4...no one ever needs to choose a race over la 4 anyway, unless they are being retarded.

imagine your la 3 race coming into a group of 4th level party as a sorcerer with like 3 or 4 hit points, and skill points of a first level character...thats rediculous!!!

this fix also lets you play level adjusted races from first level with the rest of the party...

the negative level idea mentioned a few posts back is broken and doesnt work... how can you give -5 hp to a character with only 4hp...does he start of dying??? or a la of 3 with -15 hp!!!! does the character start of DEAD! makes no sense.
pres_man
03-02-07, 06:31 PM the negative level idea mentioned a few posts back is broken and doesnt work... how can you give -5 hp to a character with only 4hp...does he start of dying??? or a la of 3 with -15 hp!!!! does the character start of DEAD! makes no sense.
Maybe you overlooked:
they take -5 hp (min of 1),
Which of course I meant, minimum of 1 per HD.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
david6477 02-28-07, 01:40 PM	This is probably a really easy question, but I'm tired of differing opinions at our table, and thought I would just get an answer from those who should know the rules inside and out! I did try to search the forum, but didn't come up with the answer that I need (probably 'cause everyone else gets it already). How do level adjustments work with PCs? I've got a player that wants a half-ogre PC. I know, from Races of Destiny, that there is a +2 Level Adjustment. What does this mean in terms of HD? Basically, I would like to know how PCs based on races with level adjustments are built. For example, in order to build a level 8 barbarian half-ogre, how many HD does the PC have? 6, or 8? Of course, the player would love 8, but some others, myself included, think that this makes the PC a little over-powered. He now has alot of muscle, and can deal out alot of damage, but has comparable hp to a human level 8 barbarian. Granted, the half-ogre is only a level 6 barbarian. I've read the level adjustment section in the DM's guide, but for some reason am not able to get my answer from reading it. It says: "Add a monster's level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature's effective character level, or ECL" (page 172). What's the Hit Dice mentioned here? So, in much confusion, I would love for someone to set us straight! Thanks!
skywyze 02-28-07, 01:46 PM	The LA of 2 means that the character is treated as 2 levels higher for purposes of XP, loot found, calculating CRs and so on. So if this character was level 8 total, the sum of all his HD and class levels would be 6. Level adjustment is generally not worth it for casters, but for fighters, barbarians etc, it can be a very powerful asset. Let's say everyone in a group begins at level 5. That means everyone has an ECL of 5. If someone wants to play a drow (LA +2), they'd only get 3 class levels to play around with. But for all intents and purposes, they'd be treated as having 5 levels. Does that answer your question?
david6477 02-28-07, 01:52 PM	I think so. Let me make sure I understand. With the drow example at ECL 5, they have 3 class levels, and only 3 hit die. Correct? In this scenario, if the drow makes ECL 6, they don't get a feat, correct (at least the feat granted at every three levels)? Feats are based on the number of HD, if I remember correctly. It is actually this point that has the player all up in arms. Well, that and his hp.
InkBlot 02-28-07, 01:59 PM	That is correct. An ECL 6 drow does not get a feat that level. ECL = Class Levels + Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment Only class levels and racial hit dice count towards feats, ability boosts, skills, hit points, and effects (like sleep) that depend on hit dice. ECL is used to determine experiance points, and what kind of encounters the character can handle.
skywyze 02-28-07, 02:02 PM	I think so. Let me make sure I understand. With the drow example at ECL 5, they have 3 class levels, and only 3 hit die. Correct? In this scenario, if the drow makes ECL 6, they don't get a feat, correct (at least the feat granted at every three levels)? Feats are based on the number of HD, if I remember correctly. It is actually this point that has the player all up in arms. Well, that and his hp.Correct. Since he'd only get 4 actual levels at ECL 6, he'd get an attribute increase, as you do every 4 HD, but no feat. He would, however, still get XP as a 6th level character and would drain the party's XP pool in the same way as a 6th level character does. Level adjustment is supposed to be a penalty for all the advantages that playing these races give. In some cases it's worth it, in other cases it's not. If your friend cares more about feats than strength, he should play a human rather than a half-ogre. Because as an ogre, his feat progression would forever be 2 levels behind everybody else's. Think of Hit Dice as just another class. You take levels in it just as you would any other class. If a creature has 16 HD and 4 class levels, he has 20 levels worth of hit points, feats, ability score increases etc. A character could be a 16th level astral deva/4th level fighter and thus have 20 HD = 20 class levels. They're not that different.
david6477 02-28-07, 02:05 PM	So, in this case, for a PC, what is the "Racial Hit Die?" I assume for the level 5 drow with 3 levels in fighter that it is zero, otherwise it's ECL wouldn't be 5. Is it only non-zero when I am trying to come up with an ECL of a creature from the monster manual and it lists the hit die for it (eg. 5d6+7)?
skywyze 02-28-07, 02:06 PM	So, in this case, for a PC, what is the "Racial Hit Die?" I assume for the level 5 drow with 3 levels in fighter that it is zero, otherwise it's ECL wouldn't be 5. Is it only non-zero when I am trying to come up with an ECL of a creature from the monster manual and it lists the hit die for it (eg. 5d6+7)? I believe so, yes.
david6477 02-28-07, 02:12 PM	Thanks so much for setting us straight! I think I have a much better understanding of level adjustments now and how it affects how a PC progresses. Thanks again!
Neutronium_Dragon 02-28-07, 02:30 PM	An exception is that 1-HD humanoids in the MM don't actually have racial hit dice. Their HD is the result of having one level in an NPC class, typically warrior. A PC won't (usually) have that NPC class level, so the HD is dropped.
pukunui 02-28-07, 05:29 PM	Thanks so much for setting us straight! I think I have a much better understanding of level adjustments now and how it affects how a PC progresses. Thanks again! The matter of what "racial hit dice" are has not been addressed adequately, so I thought I would jump in and further help to remove any confusion you might have. In this particular instance, you can ignore that term because half-ogres are humanoids with only 1 racial hit die. The rule is that humanoids with 1 HD replace that hit die with their first class level. However, anything with 2 HD (even if it's humanoid) or more keeps those hit dice. You then have to add class levels and level adjustments onto those hit dice. By way of example, let us compare the half-ogre, the lizardfolk, and the minotaur. The lizardfolk has LA +1, the half-ogre and minotaur LA +2. Additionally, the minotaur and lizardfolk both have multiple racial hit dice. A half-ogre with 6 class levels = ECL 8 (6 lvls + 2 LA) A lizardfolk with 6 class levels = ECL 9 (6 lvls + 2 HD + 1 LA) A minotaur with 6 class levels = ECL 14!! (6 lvls + 6 HD + 2 LA) Basically, you have to look at the monster's entry in the MM and factor in any racial hit dice (usually the 2nd line in the creature's stat block) on top of the LA and class levels. Hope that clears it all up. Cheers, Jonny
DocSpartan 02-28-07, 08:42 PM	So basically LA's make it impossible to play a race with an LA from first level?
calronmoonflower 02-28-07, 09:23 PM	So basically LA's make it impossible to play a race with an LA from first level? No quite. Their are monsterous classes that stat you out as a monstrous race without the full abilities of that race. As you gain levels you gain the abilities of that races and sometimes a HD and Skill Points.
pukunui 02-28-07, 10:01 PM	So basically LA's make it impossible to play a race with an LA from first level? No quite. Their are monsterous classes that stat you out as a monstrous race without the full abilities of that race. As you gain levels you gain the abilities of that races and sometimes a HD and Skill Points. Alternatively, if we're talking a low LA/no racial hit dice race (e.g. tiefling), you could let someone play one at first level with 0 XP but in order to reach 2nd level, they'd have to earn the XP required to get to 3rd level and so on. That's how they do it in Neverwinter Nights 2. You'd start out slightly more powerful but you'd end up a level or so behind the rest of the party, so it balances itself out.
AMGriffin 03-01-07, 01:07 PM	http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_races_page.htm That has converted LA into a class progression for a few races. Careful though, the races are a little bit unbalanced.
pres_man 03-01-07, 06:34 PM	Alternatively, if we're talking a low LA/no racial hit dice race (e.g. tiefling), you could let someone play one at first level with 0 XP but in order to reach 2nd level, they'd have to earn the XP required to get to 3rd level and so on. That's how they do it in Neverwinter Nights 2. You'd start out slightly more powerful but you'd end up a level or so behind the rest of the party, so it balances itself out. Or you could do what I do, treat them as having negative levels (-5 hp, min 1, -1 attack, skills, ability checks, saves) until they overcome their LA. So for the tiefling, they'd get all of the abilites, but for level 1 they take -5 hp (min of 1), -1 attack, saves, skills, and checks. When they reach 2nd level they lose this negative level.
shamurai7 03-02-07, 12:39 PM	here is the house rule my 2 groups use and everyone loves it! example with la 2 race starting party at first level la 2 race at first level gets: +1 HD for determining character level 1d4 hp low progression on all saves low progression on Base attack bonus (as wizard) 2 skill points + int mod counts toward determining bonus feats counts toward determining bonus ability points. at 2nd level they would gain the same thing, and at third level thay can actually choose a base class to level in and gain those benefits. Of course put a cap on max la like max la of 4...no one ever needs to choose a race over la 4 anyway, unless they are being retarded. imagine your la 3 race coming into a group of 4th level party as a sorcerer with like 3 or 4 hit points, and skill points of a first level character...thats rediculous!!! this fix also lets you play level adjusted races from first level with the rest of the party... the negative level idea mentioned a few posts back is broken and doesnt work... how can you give -5 hp to a character with only 4hp...does he start of dying??? or a la of 3 with -15 hp!!!! does the character start of DEAD! makes no sense.
pres_man 03-02-07, 06:31 PM	the negative level idea mentioned a few posts back is broken and doesnt work... how can you give -5 hp to a character with only 4hp...does he start of dying??? or a la of 3 with -15 hp!!!! does the character start of DEAD! makes no sense. Maybe you overlooked: they take -5 hp (min of 1), Which of course I meant, minimum of 1 per HD.