Post/Author/DateTime	Post
under lord 05-30-07, 08:31 PM	Does anybody know how to heal a lich. I dont have the right source books to know.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-30-07, 08:36 PM	Negative energy, from Inflict spells or anything similar. Look up the undead type in the SRD.
Jaxgaret 05-30-07, 08:56 PM	Lich's what? Oh, you mean Liches. :pbbbtt:
under lord 05-30-07, 09:09 PM	Does it have to be a spell or can it be a poition or scroll.
lameexcuses 05-30-07, 09:31 PM	yes, inflict(?)wounds scrolls
Jaxgaret 05-30-07, 09:41 PM	yes, inflict(?)wounds scrolls You can have Inflict Wounds potions as well.
under lord 05-30-07, 10:44 PM	Is there a way to make a half liche.
runestar 05-30-07, 10:51 PM	Can't it heal itself by touching itself with its own negative energy touch attack?:confused:
penchant 05-30-07, 11:13 PM	IIRC the lich has a paralyzing touch. While it may be powered by negative energy, unless it causes hit point damage it cannot heal undead. It's the same way that positive energy turnings don't heal the party(Don't ask me about the alternative "turn damage" rules though).
runestar 05-30-07, 11:26 PM	Ah, but it does....but it does...:P Damage: A lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier) halves the damage. A lich with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack.
lameexcuses 05-30-07, 11:30 PM	You can have Inflict Wounds potions as well. why someone is alive and SANE would want to brew this kind of potion?:confused:
Borris 05-31-07, 12:01 AM	I have no idea. Now, someone undead and sane, on the other hand...
JulesCARV 05-31-07, 12:03 AM	I'm not entirely persuaded that the negative energy touch attack can heal a lich. It's based on inference from the "inflict wounds" series, but the rules don't explicitly state it. Chilling touch hurts living creatures with a negative energy attack, but it doesn't help undead (it panics them). It's not unreasonable or unbalanced to say that a lich's negative energy attack heals them if they use it on themselves, but I'm skeptical about how much actual rules-wise support it has. Barring the negative energy attack, if you're a wizard or sorcerer lich, you'll have a harder time healing yourself than if you're a cleric, favored soul, or archivist lich. Of course, this is generally true if you're alive too -- arcanists other than bards are bad at healing. (of course, classes that can cast cure but not inflict spells, like bards, rangers, and druids, get kinda screwed by becoming liches) Of course, living wizards/sorcerers/etc often rely on clerics for healing, so undead wizards/sorcerers/etc relying on clerics for healing isn't too much of a problem. Of course, a cleric who's prepared to heal you much is also probably capable of rebuking you, so make sure that you can trust her, and possibly encourage her to go into a prestige class that doesn't advance rebuking, like contemplative ;).
Rerecros 05-31-07, 12:19 AM	I don't see what the big problem is, just use iflict spells (wands, potions, ect...) other wise just use natural healing, liches are spell casters so they have to rest anyways.
Zaver 05-31-07, 12:32 AM	why someone is alive and SANE would want to brew this kind of potion?:confused: It would make an excellent poison. Most people are low enough HD that a strong dose would kill them, but it couldn't be traced as a poison since it was just liquid negative energy. Or more likely the final thumb in the eye of the people that killed you. "Man this guy was tough, I've only got 3 hit points left. What does he have on him? A potion labled as a healing potion, I drink it. Blargh! I am slain!" It's also wonderful for training animals. Just enough to do a HP or two smeared on things they shouldn't be chewing on.
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 12:32 AM	I'm not entirely persuaded that the negative energy touch attack can heal a lich. It's based on inference from the "inflict wounds" series, but the rules don't explicitly state it. Chilling touch hurts living creatures with a negative energy attack, but it doesn't help undead (it panics them). It's not unreasonable or unbalanced to say that a lich's negative energy attack heals them if they use it on themselves, but I'm skeptical about how much actual rules-wise support it has. Barring the negative energy attack, if you're a wizard or sorcerer lich, you'll have a harder time healing yourself than if you're a cleric, favored soul, or archivist lich. Of course, this is generally true if you're alive too -- arcanists other than bards are bad at healing. (of course, classes that can cast cure but not inflict spells, like bards, rangers, and druids, get kinda screwed by becoming liches) Of course, living wizards/sorcerers/etc often rely on clerics for healing, so undead wizards/sorcerers/etc relying on clerics for healing isn't too much of a problem. Of course, a cleric who's prepared to heal you much is also probably capable of rebuking you, so make sure that you can trust her, and possibly encourage her to go into a prestige class that doesn't advance rebuking, like contemplative ;). When a ability deals neg energy damage then it will heal any undead. I have used his touch att to heal all my undead allies and my self. chill touch I believe deals cold damage and not neg energy damage and that would be the difference.
runestar 05-31-07, 01:37 AM	I'm not entirely persuaded that the negative energy touch attack can heal a lich. It's based on inference from the "inflict wounds" series, but the rules don't explicitly state it. As listed explicitly under undead traits.... Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score. A lich's touch is negative energy. So I was just wondering how clear something needs to be spelled out before...:confused:
AAB 05-31-07, 02:00 AM	sorry to sidetrack, but when a character becomes a lich (with the normal ritual or via the dread necromancer class) does his alignment automatically turn evil?
penchant 05-31-07, 03:15 AM	As listed explicitly under undead traits.... A lich's touch is negative energy. So I was just wondering how clear something needs to be spelled out before...:confused: Wow, OK then. I would have to agree with you that a lich could essentially touch himself and make himself better. I don't think I've seen it anywhere in the FAQ or errata though. It would have to come down to a DM call. I would allow it, if only because the Lich is not as gnarly as he used to be in 1/2e. And the amount of healing he would recieve through such ministration would not be useful in combat so its not worth a whole 'nother CR.
lameexcuses 05-31-07, 09:45 AM	It would make an excellent poison. Most people are low enough HD that a strong dose would kill them, but it couldn't be traced as a poison since it was just liquid negative energy. Or more likely the final thumb in the eye of the people that killed you. "Man this guy was tough, I've only got 3 hit points left. What does he have on him? A potion labled as a healing potion, I drink it. Blargh! I am slain!" It's also wonderful for training animals. Just enough to do a HP or two smeared on things they shouldn't be chewing on. man, this post made have of my day! a new way to think of spells.... you deserve a :cookie:
Zaver 05-31-07, 11:29 AM	man, this post made have of my day! a new way to think of spells.... you deserve a :cookie: Sweet!:D
CrazyOzzy 05-31-07, 12:45 PM	sorry to sidetrack, but when a character becomes a lich (with the normal ritual or via the dread necromancer class) does his alignment automatically turn evil? As stated in the rules, the process involved in becoming a Lich is unspeakably evil. To even attempt such a transformation requires an evil mind beyond many's imagination and beyond any turning back to the good side. In Conclusion, you have to be very Evil IN ORDER to become a Lich I would say.
JulesCARV 05-31-07, 12:53 PM	Generally "throwing negative energy around" doesn't heal undead. A cleric can rebuke undead, throwing a bunch of negative energy around, but that doesn't heal them. Nor does desecrating an area. Chill touch does deal negative energy damage to living creatures (and a point of strength damage) without healing undead. Inflict wounds spells and harm certainly do heal undead. Whether a lich's touch does, though, isn't clearly spelled out. (Xykon, for one, seems to be dependent on his clerics (Redcloak and Tsukiko) for healing) Again, I think that it's a reasonable interpretation that liches can heal themselves with the negative energy touch attack -- but I don't think it obviously follows from the rules.
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 07:19 PM	sorry to sidetrack, but when a character becomes a lich (with the normal ritual or via the dread necromancer class) does his alignment automatically turn evil? That's not always true. It is in the RAW they way you said it but a DM can allow a save for your PC if the player doesn't want to change alignment. But that would be up to the DM. Also some worlds have good and evil undead. I'll also add that unless the attack says it does not heal/harm the user/ undead it can be used on anyone. It's just like most spells don't harm your allies except the one that says every one in the area is damaged. AKA fireball.
TurnCloak_Kobold 05-31-07, 07:31 PM	As stated in the rules, the process involved in becoming a Lich is unspeakably evil. To even attempt such a transformation requires an evil mind beyond many's imagination and beyond any turning back to the good side. In Conclusion, you have to be very Evil IN ORDER to become a Lich I would say. hmmm, i would disagree, i have a dread necro currently who by way of backstory, is a dread necromancer just for the study of the dead and undead. so we figure in another level or two, when he does turn, it will be because he is furthering his studies by taking the body of an undead. same goes for when he becomes a demi lich. therefore i would say you dont have to be evil to be a lich, if you take this rout and your neutral to start.
Zaver 05-31-07, 11:27 PM	hmmm, i would disagree, i have a dread necro currently who by way of backstory, is a dread necromancer just for the study of the dead and undead. so we figure in another level or two, when he does turn, it will be because he is furthering his studies by taking the body of an undead. same goes for when he becomes a demi lich. therefore i would say you dont have to be evil to be a lich, if you take this rout and your neutral to start. That's taking a completely different view of things then what is typical. The rules for the game might support it, but just off fantasy canon, lich are about as evil as you can get with out being a demon and a large part of that is the ritual required to become one.
AAB 05-31-07, 11:46 PM	i didn't really ask what was typical, i asked what was possible. even if the character became a lich to increase his power to do good, would the evil process of becoming a lich remove his good intentions?
Zaver 05-31-07, 11:51 PM	i didn't really ask what was typical, i asked what was possible. even if the character became a lich to increase his power to do good, would the evil process of becoming a lich remove his good intentions? Yes. Lich are like D&D Sith. You have to give your self over to evil to be one.
MushroomSpore 05-31-07, 11:56 PM	even if the character became a lich to increase his power to do good, would the evil process of becoming a lich remove his good intentions? What the other guy said. The road to Baator is paved with good intentions...well, that and the flesh of babies or something, I suppose.
drucypher2000 05-31-07, 11:59 PM	Becoming a lich is not strictly by the rules an evil act; though anyone who read the 2nd ed ritual may remember that the freshly-removed heart of a humanoid was a component, a little difficult to get while maintaining a good alignment. I would say most liches are evil by default, if not for what they do, then for what they don't. A lich probably wouldn't go out of it's way to drown a baby or throw a bag of kittens into a volcano (known pastimes of BBEGs) unless these acts furthered the lich' research. On the other hand, if the lich's orc neighbors happened to be slow tortuing a family of elves to death, it's primary objection is likely to to noise, and will likely ask it's neighbors to keep the noise down, with a few quiet words or a nice, polite, maximized fireball. As for healing a lich, have it dip into a level or so of dread necromancer to cut can it or can't it touch itself to full health. Aside from that, all intelligent undead heal at same rate as any other creature, as stated in Libris Mortis.
MushroomSpore 06-01-07, 12:06 AM	Becoming a lich is not strictly by the rules an evil act The SRD says otherwise. The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 12:39 AM	Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but doesnt it say that negative energy heals undead? Doesnt this imply no matter what the source? I understand that chill touch doesnt heal undead, but that is because it states in the spell description how it handles undead. And also rebuking wouldnt work because it doesnt deal hit point damage in any form, so there is no damage to convert to healing. So having said that I would have to say that my opinion on if a lich could touch themselves to heal is yes they could, as it doesnt say anywhere that it doesnt follow a different rule from other negative energy.
JulesCARV 06-01-07, 05:16 PM	Okay: the undead traits list does say "Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures." What are we to make of it, though? How much does the negative energy from the lich's attack heal an undead? 1d8 + 5 points? 1 point? 5 points? 6 points? 13 points? There are no rules governing that. The dread necromancer's charnel touch, for instance, is assymetrical. The inflict spells say that they heal a "like amount" of damage to the undead as the inflict on the living. There is no general rule, though, saying that negative energy interacts with the undead in a manner that is a mirror image of how it interacts with the living. Inflict wounds explicitly does, and harm kinda does, and there are others that explicitly don't, but the lich's attack simply doesn't say anything about it.
Issabella 06-01-07, 05:26 PM	back to the alignment question there are (particularly in Forgotten realms) certainly many good liches, some with their own unique abilities. I don't have my monsters of Faerune handy but I think the Bealorns (sp) the elven liches are powered by arcane energy (not negative) and thus can not be turned.
Ace_of_time 06-01-07, 09:57 PM	Okay: the undead traits list does say "Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures." What are we to make of it, though? How much does the negative energy from the lich's attack heal an undead? 1d8 + 5 points? 1 point? 5 points? 6 points? 13 points? There are no rules governing that. The dread necromancer's charnel touch, for instance, is assymetrical. The inflict spells say that they heal a "like amount" of damage to the undead as the inflict on the living. There is no general rule, though, saying that negative energy interacts with the undead in a manner that is a mirror image of how it interacts with the living. Inflict wounds explicitly does, and harm kinda does, and there are others that explicitly don't, but the lich's attack simply doesn't say anything about it. The same damage it deals to living thing it heals to undead.
penchant 06-01-07, 10:51 PM	Ok, an alternative view to this: It is unspeakably evil to become a lich. However once a person is a lich he is still redeemable. So a lich can, over time, regret his actions and change alignment to good. While he may or may not seek to undo his lichdom, that in and of itself does not keep him evil.
Omega_Grey 06-02-07, 07:57 AM	I just noticed an odd wording in the monster manual that may put the whole 'can a lich touch himself to feel good' thing to rest. (Then again it may create a whole new set of arguments) It states in the attacks description that 'a lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures.' Since it says that it only affects living creatures I am starting to lean towards it can't heal itself by its own touch. Does anyone see fault with my train of logic?
obrysii 06-02-07, 09:41 AM	nce it says that it only affects living creatures I am starting to lean towards it can't heal itself by its own touch. Does anyone see fault with my train of logic? Only that it obviously can't use it's negative-energy touch to harm undead. Since it specifically mentions the "living" ... it means that Undead are not harmed by it. And since it is a negative energy touch, and Undead are healed by negative energy ... it is not a leap in logic to assume that its negative energy touch will heal it. kay: the undead traits list does say "Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures." What are we to make of it, though? How much does the negative energy from the lich's attack heal an undead? 1d8 + 5 points? 1 point? 5 points? 6 points? 13 points? There are no rules governing that. It would heal the exact same amount it would have dealt damage for.
JulesCARV 06-02-07, 06:56 PM	It would heal the exact same amount it would have dealt damage for. To clarify, are you saying, "you're right that there are no official rules governing that, but I would houserule that they would heal the exact same amount it would have dealt damage for," or are you saying "you're wrong that there are no rules governing that: there is a rule, which is that the touch would heal the exact same amount it would have dealt damage for?"
Ace_of_time 06-02-07, 07:05 PM	There are things that are not living or undead.
Omega_Grey 06-02-07, 07:58 PM	To clarify, are you saying, "you're right that there are no official rules governing that, but I would houserule that they would heal the exact same amount it would have dealt damage for," or are you saying "you're wrong that there are no rules governing that: there is a rule, which is that the touch would heal the exact same amount it would have dealt damage for?" I do believe that what Obrysii is saying is that it says that the lich deals 1d8+5 points of negative energy damage to a living creature touched. So it would heal all 1d8+5, otherwise it would have said that it has a touch attack that deals 1d8 damage plus 5 negative energy (or vice versa) seeing as how that is what it does with all other forms of damage (example 1d6 plus 1 fire).
obrysii 06-02-07, 11:18 PM	To clarify, are you saying, "you're right that there are no official rules governing that, but I would houserule that they would heal the exact same amount it would have dealt damage for," or are you saying "you're wrong that there are no rules governing that: there is a rule, which is that the touch would heal the exact same amount it would have dealt damage for?" The latter. The touch would heal for the exact same amount it would have dealt in damage, unless otherwise noted. Think of it in reverse. A Positive Energy touch attack that deals 1d8+5 damage to undead would heal a living creature 1d8+5, would it not? Unless specifically noted, it should.
T.rex 06-03-07, 02:18 AM	The big question is, that if the lich keeps touching himself like that does he go blind?:D
Shemeska the Marauder 06-03-07, 02:48 AM	sorry to sidetrack, but when a character becomes a lich (with the normal ritual or via the dread necromancer class) does his alignment automatically turn evil? The lich template having a requirement of an evil alignment is a 3.5 change accompanied with no explanation, and there is a long tradition of non-evil liches in D&D that includes -many- liches in 3e and 3.5 regardless of the rules regarding the template in the MM. There are non-evil liches, non-evil archliches (formed via a different process), and baelnorn (a specific type of elven lich without a phylactery that weren't evil [not not necessarily good either]). Off the top of my head I can think of rather powerful LG lich, a grossly powerful TN lich, a LN lich who subsequently transferred his mind into an undead illithid elder brain, and a number of CG baelnorn. They exist regardless of the game mechanics taking them into account or not, and the game mechanics and rules should support the flavor text and lore rather than the other way around. Rationalize it as you like, be it ignoring the requirement for the 3.5 template, or assuming that non-evil liches exist with the exact same stats as the 3.5 MM template just arriving by a different process that isn't evil. Plus there have been liches formed from unwilling persons who never had a choice about accepting their new state of being or not, being the result of magical accidents or being forced by another spellcaster, etc.
Omega_Grey 06-03-07, 08:32 AM	The big question is, that if the lich keeps touching himself like that does he go blind?:D Nope, undead are immune to blindness. Now if his knuckles will get all hairy is another matter entirely...
HuManBing 06-04-07, 08:48 PM	I use this house rule that a lich does indeed heal its own damage with its touch attack. However, I agree that this is not explicitly stated in the SRD or the RAW, thus it must remain a house rule. Personally I like liches, so I make it heal the entire 1d8+5 damage that it would normally deal. This requires a standard action, though, so the lich can only do this once per turn. On average it heals about 9 or 10 hp per application, so it's in effect giving the lich a "fast heal 10" power if it decides to take only move-equivalent actions. Now, if you want to be in keeping with the RAW, there is a way they heal. In Libris Mortis, the book is specific in saying that intelligent undead heal hp. I forget the exact rate but it's something like 1 hp per 8 hours. Apart from cause wounds spells and harm spells and the like, this is the only way to heal them. Unintelligent undead like skeletons do not heal this way. Finally, another issue crops up. If you check out Libris Mortis, you'll see that undead with the "drain" ability are actually somewhat asymmetrical. They do heal some damage each time they drain, but it's almost always set at 5 hp per application, even if the drain attack ends up doing more than that to the victim. This goes even if the drain attack does Con/Str/Int etc damage rather than hp damage. So, to sum up: Hardcore rules: Undead if intelligent can heal 1 hp per 8 hours. Softer rules: Undead with the negative touch attack may be able to heal themselves by touch, but it would only do 5 hp healing per application. Even softer rules: Undead get to roll damage dice for healing by targeting themselves with a negative attack. Even way softer rules to really favor the undead: Use the Dicefreaks template for liches, which is located here (amongst other places): http://www.cruciare.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=87&sid=c2f273b51db034b948225ff1a90f1870 This will make your liches much more powerful and your PCs will probably hate you. :)