Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fly666monkey 10-28-07, 05:11 PM	Ok, let me get through this quckly: A lillith is a decendant of a union between a human and a succubus, but their feindish blood has alll but faded out. Lilliths are very emotional and gain benefits from joy and penalties from truama. Most lilliths prefer to experience this "high" by enganging in intimate acts, although lilliths sometime find other means. Lilliths speak common. They are alll female. A lillith has the folowing qualities medium outsider(native) +4 charisma, -2 strength. Base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision 60 feet. +2 bonus on Diplomacy, Bluff, and Preform checks. Wings (ex): a lillith has 2 batlike wings protruding from her back, however they cannot support the lilith's weight and do not grant a fly speed. A lillith can fold her wing around her body as a move action, providing her a +2 bonus to her AC. A lillith may include on ajdacent creature of mediun size or smaller in this protection, but doing so reduces the AC bonus to +1. Emotional (ex): A lillith is very emotional and gains penalties and bonuses from feelings of joy and sadness. A lillith who engages in an act of joy gains a +1 morale bonus to all checks and saves for 24 hours. A liliith does not gain an increased bonus for multiple joyous acts. More intense joyous acts provide a +3 bonous instead. A lillith who suffers a minor truama recieves a -1 morale penalty to all checks and saves for 24 hours. Multible truamas do not increase this penalty. If a lillith undergoes extreme truama, she recives a -3 morale penalty to all checks and saves for 24 hours, and must make a will save once every hour (DC 25 -1 per hour that passes since undergoing duress) or fall to her knees and cry loudly for d20 rounds. During this time, the lillith cannot preform any actions and is considered helpless. Alignment: Usually chaotic(any) Favored class: Bard. It's my first race i've actually listed with stats, enjoy!:dancin: :pint:
Fly666monkey 10-28-07, 07:07 PM	oops i forgot to ask for opinons... oops. ok, i'm asking for your opinons now...... POST!
Killydd 10-28-07, 07:21 PM	Some points that need to be clarified: 1) What is the LA on the race? 2) What is the type on the wings bonus? 3) Is there any reaso that the wings aren't routinely considered wrapped around her for the bonus? 4) Definitely need a firmer definition of "minor" and "major" joy and trauma. As is they are so vague as to be easily always or never present.
Fly666monkey 10-28-07, 07:55 PM	Some points that need to be clarified: 1) What is the LA on the race? 2) What is the type on the wings bonus? 3) Is there any reaso that the wings aren't routinely considered wrapped around her for the bonus? 4) Definitely need a firmer definition of "minor" and "major" joy and trauma. As is they are so vague as to be easily always or never present. 1) LA is 0 2) It's an armor bonus to AC 3) Because it takes mental effort to move the wings, it inhibits movement because it's difficult to see, and it makes it hard to move your arms when the joints are pinned in place like that. 4) Minor joys are events, while not life-changing, carry some amount of significance. Such events include kissing, winning a challenging game, overcomming unfair odds, being healed, and giving memorable preformances. Major joys are life-changing or cause significant influence on one's life. This includes Intercourse, getting married, giving birth, becoming global champion, winning a tournament, inheriting a large sum of wealth, becomming a grandparent, etc... Minor truamas , like minor joys, carry significance but are not life-altering. Examples include making an enemy, being yelled at, being booed on stage, winessing a violent crime, etc. Major truamas are life-changing and leave mental and/or physical scars that may never heal. Such events include heartbreak, death of a loved one, kiddnaping of a child, destruction of her hometown, betrayal, a lover turning against you, exile, and so on. The severity of these events should be determined by the DM.
Slayer_Dragonwing 10-28-07, 10:47 PM	4) Definitely need a firmer definition of "minor" and "major" joy and trauma. As is they are so vague as to be easily always or never present. How do the two interact with each other? Does a lillith that feels joy and then trauma or vice versa replace one bonus with the other, do they stack, or do they cancel each other out? 1) 3) Because it takes mental effort to move the wings, it inhibits movement because it's difficult to see, and it makes it hard to move your arms when the joints are pinned in place like that. You might want to define exactly what penalties a Lillith recieves from folding her wings around her. Besides these two things it seems like a pretty interesting race. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing one in play. I might actually use one as an NPC in my next campaign, come to think of it.
Qube 10-30-07, 02:28 PM	(1)nice trymedium outsider(native) +4 charisma, -2 strength.(2)I'dd say a weak LA+1: - +4 cha screems sorcerer. - native ousider is very srong (as in no eat, sleep, immunity to all 'human' spells as hold person, ...). - and +4 is not equal to -2 (even on str) (3) I don't like the name, since Lillith a meaning (biblic). More as the demon queen of seduction; not as half-breed succubi.
JarionSilverblades 10-30-07, 04:04 PM	Seems like a Succubus based Planetouched. - native ousider is very srong (as in no eat, sleep, immunity to all 'human' spells as hold person, ...). I might be wrong, but Native Outsiders DO need to eat and sleep. What if he added something like a Human Blood Trait? Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a Lillith is considered a human. Lilliths, for example, are just as vulnerable to special effects that affect humans as their human ancestors are. - and +4 is not equal to -2 (even on str) I have to agree -2 Str isn't equal to a +4 Cha, you might want to change it to +2 Cha, -2 Str. Also you give them bonuses to several Cha based Skills. Well that's just my :twocents: .
Fly666monkey 10-30-07, 05:34 PM	Ok, ok, it was my first creature i've listed stats for. I was BOUND to make a mistake. Here are the revisions: Wings: a lillith may not take any actions while protecting herself with her wings. Any other creature protected this way may not take any actions either. Attempting to encase an unwilling creature in her wings requires a successful grapple check (opposed by target's escape artist check) Emotional: equivilant emotional acts (Major or minor) cancel each other out. if the new emotional state is greater than the current one, it replaces it instead. LA is still 0. a STR bonus is balanced by a penalty to 2 mental stats (INT, WIS, CHA), and vice versa. In this case, the bonus is simply piled on one stat instead of 2. Therefore, there is no level adjustment. Favored class is still bard. Lilliths love to put on a show for others, especially if it focuses on her physical beauty (Most lillith bards have ranks in Preform(dance)) Sorcerer is obviously a good choice as well. role-playing: Lilliths spend most of their time attempting to engage in whatever activities they find enjoyable, which, in most cases, involves flirting/ intimacy (though not always). As such, lilliths prefer jobs that involve a high number of people, customers or fellow workers. Lilliths usually work as Dancers, Concubines, Barmaids, Innkeepers. and shopkeepers. Lilliths may choose to adventure for several reasons. She may have a relationship with an adventurer and decides to tag along. She may enjoy the wealth she gains, and she may also think that being an adventurer makes her more desirable. Less liked lilliths may adventure to prove that, despite their demonic heritage, they are not monsters.
Fly666monkey 10-30-07, 06:31 PM	Oh, forgot to add: Native outsiders DO need to eat, sleep and breathe. I'm not sure if they age, though... cookie if you can find the answer to that last part
sigma999 10-30-07, 10:22 PM	Maybe make Humanoid and it's perfect. I like! And actually, your Emotional idea has good application as a Flaw for any character. It seems like borderline Bipolar as well. Many RP fanatics would love to have it as both an advantage (a leg up on min/maxers) and a challenge. There would be no way for powergamers to abuse it since it depends on DM fiat to gain or lose those bonuses. That, and powergamers tend to be unemotional in roleplay (I would know personally!)
evangelion1010 10-30-07, 11:10 PM	LA is still 0. a STR bonus is balanced by a penalty to 2 mental stats (INT, WIS, CHA), and vice versa. In this case, the bonus is simply piled on one stat instead of 2. Therefore, there is no level adjustment. I don't criticize you, especially as this being your first time, but that line in the book about what is equal to what is a complete load of BS, for several reasons. Ignoring that, note that in EVERY other case a simple 2+2 isn't equal to 4 in terms of cost, rather the cost is squared. For example, +2 enchantment item vs +4 enchantment item vs +6.... they cost 4 and 9 times as much, not 2 and 3. Racial bonuses aren't fully exempt from this either (though a -2 to multiple abilities would make this better, as you increase the chances that at least one of the penalized stats will be something the character actually uses, so a -2,-2 +4, may be balanced. Still, few to no ECL 0 races give anything above a +2, although there are a few +2/+2/-2 races) And if we don't ignore my contention that one stat > than another... 1) What does a sorcerer care if they get a -2 to strength (Always assume the race will be used by the class(es) that benefit from it most) 2) Charisma (and intelligence to a lesser degree) in core are weaker than strength/dexterity/constitution for MOST classes. This is hardly the case with non-core feats... Feats that let you use charisma in place of wisdom for monk AC, classes that add int to damage or to AC, a whole spattering of feats and classes with abilities usable X+ cha mod/day... Charisma is a dump stat only to characters who choose not to use it. If a character decides to make a build centered around 1-2 stats, they will find a way to get that stat to apply to a good number of things, and charisma (because it was viewed as too weak) became a candidate for such things. The stat most immune to this min/maxing is likely constitution, as everyone likes HP, save those that shapeshift/polymorph (though sorcerers only get this later, and druids have little game breaking uses for charisma) As a final point I recommend implementing a scale from -2 to +2 for the morale portion. Allow it to stack, as a bunch of minor joys during the day are often just as good as a single large one. As a DM option allow for extraordinary events (marriage, death of a close friend/child, etc.) to have a long lasting and very significant effect on the character. As for what causes a shift, I'd make it heavily DM dependent (Still we want to avoid the cleric sidekeep she has around that heals her and is her lover for a consistent +2 morale bonus....) It's also interesting because the better mood the character is in, the more likely she is to stay in a good mood. (and the same with a bad mood)
Killydd 11-02-07, 02:00 AM	As is, probably a LA +1, with a warning on the emotional ability. the wings are now an interesting touch, unlikely to affect play beyond the first level or two, since armor bonuses to AC are extremely common and like types don't stack. I'd recommend a line explicitly allowing verbal/though actions, such as stilled spells or psionics though. The mental (caster) stats are more valuable on adding than the other stats, just becaust casters are more potent to start with and there really aren't drawbacks for a caster taking penalties to things like strength. As mentioned, look at the optimal class combination for the race you are creating. A sorceror or bard with this is very potent with the +2 save DC and bonus spells. Outsider is also a powerful type to give to a race, granting immunity to anumber of low level spells and also free martial weapon proficiency. That sorceror into Eldritch Knight is looking quite potent now. for the Emotional, keep in mind that with even minimal effort in rp, it will be hard with your definitions to avoid having the lillith enter every encounter with a +1 to almost everything important. Also, remember that trying to optimize your character doesn't mean you pay no attention to the roleplay, or that you aren't willing to jump through hoops to get advantages. Especially since if you make everyone at the table uncomfortable once in the role-play, they're just going to hand-wave it past in the future. Still, the idea of the race is intriguing,
Fly666monkey 11-02-07, 11:16 AM	ok, i see that most of you agree that the Lillith is a tad overpowered as a LA 0, but a tad underpowered as a +1, so i'm implimenting this change. -2 Strength, -2 wisdom, +4 charisma. Lilliths are very charming, but tend to be weak and a bit airheaded. Emotional: Bonuses and penalties DO NOT STACK. A DM may determine however, that several joyous (or saddening) events in one day may change a Lillith's emotional state from minor to major. wings: a lillith may use stilled spells and psionic abilities while protected by her wings. LA should be a fair 0 now.
Trachmyr 11-02-07, 06:59 PM	Why not simply require the Lillith to take the Total Defence action to gain benefits from their wings. Or +1AC if Fighting Defensively (or using Combat Expertise for a +2 or greater bonus), and +2AC for Total Defense. You might want to consider giving them some sort of glinding or Slow Fall ability. i.e., Reduce fallen distance by 20', and can move 5' vertically per 10' Fallen.
Fly666monkey 11-02-07, 07:14 PM	Why not simply require the Lillith to take the Total Defence action to gain benefits from their wings. Or +1AC if Fighting Defensively (or using Combat Expertise for a +2 or greater bonus), and +2AC for Total Defense. You might want to consider giving them some sort of glinding or Slow Fall ability. i.e., Reduce fallen distance by 20', and can move 5' vertically per 10' Fallen. Thanks for the help on the wings bonus. Yes, that bonus should only be applied when using total defense. However, i mentioned earlier that a lillith's wings are too small to support her weight, so it wouldn't be able to assist her when falling. Thanks again for the tips, i'm about to write up a revised version of the Lillith race. P.E.A.C.H.
Fly666monkey 11-02-07, 07:19 PM	Lillith revised ver. A lillith is a decendant of a union between a human and a succubus, but their feindish blood has alll but faded out. Lilliths are very emotional and gain benefits from joy and penalties from truama. Most lilliths prefer to experience this "high" by enganging in intimate acts, although lilliths sometime find other means. Lilliths speak common. They are alll female. A lillith has the folowing qualities medium outsider(native) +4 charisma, -2 strength, -2 wisdom. Lilliths are charming, but are physically weak and can be a bit airheaded. Base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision 60 feet. +2 bonus on Diplomacy, Bluff, and Preform checks. Wings (ex): when using the total defense option, a Lillith gains a +2 armor bonus to AC. The bonus is reduced to +1 when fighting defensively, or when covering another, granting them a +1 armor bonus as well. Emotional (ex): A lillith is very emotional and gains penalties and bonuses from feelings of joy and sadness. A lillith who engages in an act of joy gains a +1 morale bonus to all checks and saves for 24 hours. A liliith does not gain an increased bonus for multiple joyous acts. More intense joyous acts provide a +3 bonous instead. A lillith who suffers a minor truama recieves a -1 morale penalty to all checks and saves for 24 hours. Multible truamas do not increase this penalty. If a lillith undergoes extreme truama, she recives a -3 morale penalty to all checks and saves for 24 hours, and must make a will save once every hour (DC 25 -1 per hour that passes since undergoing duress) or fall to her knees and cry loudly for d20 rounds. During this time, the lillith cannot preform any actions and is considered helpless. It is up to the DM to determine what events invoke these states. Alignment: Usually chaotic(any) Favored class: Bard. I hope this helps... (PEACH)
Fly666monkey 11-04-07, 04:44 PM	Sorry about the triple post, but i just wanna make something very clear: POWER GAMERS WILL MAKE POOR LILLITHS! ty, keep the posts comming guys I wanna see this race in 4e. Other than that info, this is just a bump (Call me cheap...)