Lowest Common Level Adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lowest Common Level Adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
penchant
07-11-07, 02:36 PM Level adjustment is a mechanic that does not emulate any real phenomenae, but is a (good) balancing mechanic to allow players a wider range of choices when creating their characters as well as allowing such characters to fit in with the challenge rating system without extreme mental gymnastics. Any NPC that has a LA does not have to pay for that LA with XP or anything else. A dragon, is a dragon and does not know that it should have to get 100 times the amount of XP to pick up a level one class than a human does. It doesn't even know that it should "buy off" its existing LA before progressing in levels just to be fair to elves and dwarves.

As long as we all agree with that, then we can move on. If not, then pressing Alt+F4 will solve the problem;) . OK, you could just press 'back' too.

People are really timid about picking up high LA races or taking certain class/race combinations (casters by far). I want to try to remove the Lowest Common Level Adjustment or LCLA. If everyone one wants a race with a LA (especially if it is the same race) then simply subtract the LCLA from what they have to pay for.

Example, a Drow, a Half Dragon and a Pixie walk into a bar... and form an adventuring group. The Drow has the lowest LA (+2) and thus the Half-Drac only pays for a +1 LA and the Pixie a +2. They use this for Treasure and XP. To modify the encounters to still be challenging, simply increase the CRs of the enouters by the LCLD through the multiple foe method. This ensures that Save DC's, SR, and damage all scale appropriately (give or take) and keep the otherwise gimped spellcasters relevant. rather than taking on more powerful foes (which low HP, low CL, high LA characters do poorly at) they fight swarms of creatures more in line with their class levels.

So if your players all want to play Half Ogres, then they can all immediately start with a +0 LA and get their levels immediately... with no magic and only 1000xp needed to get to 2nd level instead of whatever it takes to get to 3rd. Racial Hit dice can't be equivocated in this way so it always counts normally.

So what are the problems with this idea? I will likely start implementing this next new game if it seems to hold up to scrutiny.
snakeman830
07-11-07, 02:59 PM I personally think it makes a lot of sense. I like it.
Lawlicron
07-11-07, 03:01 PM Don't you think if you did this that all your players would pick very high LA races? Then a campaign thats supposed to be for 4 1st level (Normal race) PCs is being destroyed until atleast the 4th or 5th adventure.
jago668
07-11-07, 04:02 PM Not really. He said adjust the cr's for the encounters upwards by whatever amount of level adjustment you ignored.

So if you ignored +8 LA, then that CR 2 encounter becomes a CR 10 encounter. Just as mentioned make sure to do this by adding more creatures, not by making the creatures harder. However only hand out xp for a CR 2 encounter. Otherwise you'd level crazy fast.

We usually start at level 3 to work around that anyways. Gives a bit of lee way for people wanting to play something with a small LA.
RobbyPants
07-11-07, 04:08 PM I've done a (very) simple version of this before. When running a one-on-one game, I've allowed a player to choose other races (with some restrictions). At this point, the LA doesn't really apply, as there are no other characters in the party to balance with. Obviously, I need to make the encounters harder, but I just let him play the race, and start the class at level 1.
Apocolypse_77
07-11-07, 04:42 PM One problem i see with this is that your casters still won't want to take a lvl adjustment, since they will still be fighting the same CR enemies as if they had a caster lvl equal to their lvl adjustment then they will be weaker then if they just went pure caster.
Lawlicron
07-12-07, 01:38 AM Not really. He said adjust the cr's for the encounters upwards by whatever amount of level adjustment you ignored.

So if you ignored +8 LA, then that CR 2 encounter becomes a CR 10 encounter. Just as mentioned make sure to do this by adding more creatures, not by making the creatures harder. However only hand out xp for a CR 2 encounter. Otherwise you'd level crazy fast.

We usually start at level 3 to work around that anyways. Gives a bit of lee way for people wanting to play something with a small LA.

Under those variant rules I don't think you would have to worry about leveling 'crazy fast' because you would be dead 'crazy fast'.
penchant
07-12-07, 08:53 AM Under those variant rules I don't think you would have to worry about level 'crazy fast' because you would be dead 'crazy fast'.

The alternative is to simply have CR 10 encounters. How is that less dangerous than the variant?

A clay golem is a CR 10 encounter. Imagine that with a base class and a template with a total LA of +8 and 2 Hit dice you have to face this enormous damage monster. It is unlikely that you would have time to bring all your special abilities to bear that you bought with those 8 levels before you were clobbered with its first attack (2d10+7). Unless you were a fighter type this would likely bring you below zero in one hit even with some DR.

Using the encounter numbers chart on page 49 of the DMG, you can create a CR 10 encounter with a dozen CR 2 or 3 creatures. For defeating them the party only gets credit for the CR 2 or 3 encounter since you equivocated the LCLA (and all party members had a +8 CR). With a +8 LA, the party is sure to have Severe stat bonuses, DR, SR and various other abilties. The reason that multiple creatures pose less of a threat than a single CR 10 monster is that they can more effectively benefit from area effect spells, feats like Cleave and Great Cleave as well as size modifiers with reach. A single burning hands spell from a 2nd level caster will do little to a Clay golem, but to a pack of lions is still effective and useful. It solves the problem of trying to be a spell caster with LA. The fighter is still being swarmed by the lions, but the DR he has is more effective against the many attacks he is taking and is likely negating most of it. DR 5/magic is still beneficial at a CR of 3 modified to 10.

Normally a character with a high LA just isn't survivable unless you write them up at high levels. They have half a chance if their class levels equal or exceed their LA. But try playing one from 1st class level sometime and it becomes an excercise in repetitive character creation. There is little reason for a 1st level Vampire to exist as a PC. Its a CR 6 creature with one HD. But if the whole 1st level party is composed of vampires, then you can run them against CR 1 encounters in great numbers (like the town of commoners they are trying to enslave).

If there is a better way, let me know. This is the only easy system I can think of to figure out how to let people play the characters they want and still keep them relevant.
snakeman830
07-12-07, 09:25 AM As I said before. Makes perfect sense to me.
runestar
07-12-07, 10:20 AM So let me get this straight...

Say your players all choose to play drow.

Using your variant, all start off effectively as LA+0 drow with the classes of their choice.

By your suggestion, they should be pitted against 2 cr1 foes when they should be facing a single cr3 entity. Even though they are technically ECL3 characters, they get xp as though they were ECL1 characters, and use the ECL1 xp progression chart. However, even when they overcome 2 cr1 challenges, they still get xp only as though they had overcome a single cr1 challenge (in effect, all xp rewards are halved).

A drow with 1 class lv typically starts off at 3000xp and needs 3000xp to reach ECL4. Each cr3 encounter grants it 900/4 xp or 225xp. He needs 14 encounters to lv.

In your game, a drow with 1 class lv needs 1000xp to reach 2nd lv. When he faces 2 cr1 foes, he gets 300/4 xp or 75xp. He too needs 14 encounters to lv.

Seems fair enough. But don't take my word on it.:P
Avatar of Kokusho
07-12-07, 11:01 AM I've done something similar in a world, once.

All of the players had a choice between half-celestial and half-fiendish. Reasoning? In this world, unions between the fullblooded versions of these races and mortals were quite common. Since everyone in the party had roughly the same abilities, they recieved no effective level increase.

In my mind, effective levels serve as a balancing factor when compared to "normal" party members. Those with superior abilities given to them by virtue of race, template, or whatever ARE more powerful, and the LA reflects that.

However, if all party members are of roughly equivalent power levels (as was the case noted above) then the LA should not apply; there's nothing to balance against. The DM can then tailor the encounters based upon her knowledge of the characters' capabilities.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-12-07, 10:08 PM Level adjustment is a mechanic that does not emulate any real phenomenae, but is a (good) balancing mechanic to allow players a wider range of choices when creating their characters as well as allowing such characters to fit in with the challenge rating system without extreme mental gymnastics. Any NPC that has a LA does not have to pay for that LA with XP or anything else. A dragon, is a dragon and does not know that it should have to get 100 times the amount of XP to pick up a level one class than a human does. It doesn't even know that it should "buy off" its existing LA before progressing in levels just to be fair to elves and dwarves.

As long as we all agree with that, then we can move on. If not, then pressing Alt+F4 will solve the problem;) . OK, you could just press 'back' too.

People are really timid about picking up high LA races or taking certain class/race combinations (casters by far). I want to try to remove the Lowest Common Level Adjustment or LCLA. If everyone one wants a race with a LA (especially if it is the same race) then simply subtract the LCLD from what they have to pay for.

Example, a Drow, a Half Dragon and a Pixie walk into a bar... and form an adventuring group. The Drow has the lowest LA (+2) and thus the Half-Drac only pays for a +1 LA and the Pixie a +2. They use this for Treasure and XP. To modify the encounters to still be challenging, simply increase the CRs of the enouters by the LCLD through the multiple foe method. This ensures that Save DC's, SR, and damage all scale appropriately (give or take) and keep the otherwise gimped spellcasters relevant. rather than taking on more powerful foes (which low HP, low CL, high LA characters do poorly at) they fight swarms of creatures more in line with their class levels.

So if your players all want to play Half Ogres, then they can all immediately start with a +0 LA and get their levels immediately... with no magic and only 1000xp needed to get to 2nd level instead of whatever it takes to get to 3rd. Racial Hit dice can't be equivocated in this way so it always counts normally.

So what are the problems with this idea? I will likely start implementing this next new game if it seems to hold up to scrutiny.

The first problem with this is cheese. Illithids in a level 1 party? I don't think so.

Oh, sure, you can have very good role-playing sessions, many classic stories involve parties where the main characters have widely varying power levels. But that is not the right way to deal with it with most gaming groups. Level Adjustment is intended to curb the power of monster characters, and does its purpose admirably.
penchant
07-12-07, 10:51 PM The first problem with this is cheese. Illithids in a level 1 party? I don't think so.

Oh, sure, you can have very good role-playing sessions, many classic stories involve parties where the main characters have widely varying power levels. But that is not the right way to deal with it with most gaming groups. Level Adjustment is intended to curb the power of monster characters, and does its purpose admirably.

The idea is that in order for an Illithid to be considered level 1 is for the rest of the party to have the same level adjustment as he does. The Mind Flayer has an LA of +7. So as long as everyone else in the party has an LA +7 race with no racial hit dice then the whole group can be condidered a 1st level party, but they fight CR 8 encounters made up of CR 1 or 2 creatures.

If the Mind Flayer is travelling with a party of two vampires (LA +5) then the LCLA is 5 and so the Vampires would then have no LA and the Illithid still has an LA of +2 to deal with.
zae
07-13-07, 07:42 AM The first problem with this is cheese. Illithids in a level 1 party? I don't think so.

It was specifically said that races with hit dice would need to use the rules normally, so an illithid (with 8 racial hit dice) is a bad example. But even so, let's say there was a half-fiend, a creature with the +7 LA of an illithid, a half-dragon and a wight. That's +4, +7, +3 and +5. The half-dragon has +0, the half-fiend has +1, the wight has +2 and the other thing gets +4. The party is still balanced against itself.

[/QUOTE]Level Adjustment is intended to curb the power of monster characters, and does its purpose admirably.[/QUOTE]

Rubbish.

Anyway, I like this idea. It seems quite reasonable, and actually takes care of the issue where high LA characters die all the time, by just having them fight lots of weaker monsters. Sure, they get swarmed, but they can survive it a lot better than one big sucker-punch.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-13-07, 09:47 PM The idea is that in order for an Illithid to be considered level 1 is for the rest of the party to have the same level adjustment as he does. The Mind Flayer has an LA of +7. So as long as everyone else in the party has an LA +7 race with no racial hit dice then the whole group can be condidered a 1st level party, but they fight CR 8 encounters made up of CR 1 or 2 creatures.

If the Mind Flayer is travelling with a party of two vampires (LA +5) then the LCLA is 5 and so the Vampires would then have no LA and the Illithid still has an LA of +2 to deal with.

Ah, I understand. You just make the rest of the party equally weak to compensate. Yeah, that's one solution.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
penchant 07-11-07, 02:36 PM	Level adjustment is a mechanic that does not emulate any real phenomenae, but is a (good) balancing mechanic to allow players a wider range of choices when creating their characters as well as allowing such characters to fit in with the challenge rating system without extreme mental gymnastics. Any NPC that has a LA does not have to pay for that LA with XP or anything else. A dragon, is a dragon and does not know that it should have to get 100 times the amount of XP to pick up a level one class than a human does. It doesn't even know that it should "buy off" its existing LA before progressing in levels just to be fair to elves and dwarves. As long as we all agree with that, then we can move on. If not, then pressing Alt+F4 will solve the problem;) . OK, you could just press 'back' too. People are really timid about picking up high LA races or taking certain class/race combinations (casters by far). I want to try to remove the Lowest Common Level Adjustment or LCLA. If everyone one wants a race with a LA (especially if it is the same race) then simply subtract the LCLA from what they have to pay for. Example, a Drow, a Half Dragon and a Pixie walk into a bar... and form an adventuring group. The Drow has the lowest LA (+2) and thus the Half-Drac only pays for a +1 LA and the Pixie a +2. They use this for Treasure and XP. To modify the encounters to still be challenging, simply increase the CRs of the enouters by the LCLD through the multiple foe method. This ensures that Save DC's, SR, and damage all scale appropriately (give or take) and keep the otherwise gimped spellcasters relevant. rather than taking on more powerful foes (which low HP, low CL, high LA characters do poorly at) they fight swarms of creatures more in line with their class levels. So if your players all want to play Half Ogres, then they can all immediately start with a +0 LA and get their levels immediately... with no magic and only 1000xp needed to get to 2nd level instead of whatever it takes to get to 3rd. Racial Hit dice can't be equivocated in this way so it always counts normally. So what are the problems with this idea? I will likely start implementing this next new game if it seems to hold up to scrutiny.
snakeman830 07-11-07, 02:59 PM	I personally think it makes a lot of sense. I like it.
Lawlicron 07-11-07, 03:01 PM	Don't you think if you did this that all your players would pick very high LA races? Then a campaign thats supposed to be for 4 1st level (Normal race) PCs is being destroyed until atleast the 4th or 5th adventure.
jago668 07-11-07, 04:02 PM	Not really. He said adjust the cr's for the encounters upwards by whatever amount of level adjustment you ignored. So if you ignored +8 LA, then that CR 2 encounter becomes a CR 10 encounter. Just as mentioned make sure to do this by adding more creatures, not by making the creatures harder. However only hand out xp for a CR 2 encounter. Otherwise you'd level crazy fast. We usually start at level 3 to work around that anyways. Gives a bit of lee way for people wanting to play something with a small LA.
RobbyPants 07-11-07, 04:08 PM	I've done a (very) simple version of this before. When running a one-on-one game, I've allowed a player to choose other races (with some restrictions). At this point, the LA doesn't really apply, as there are no other characters in the party to balance with. Obviously, I need to make the encounters harder, but I just let him play the race, and start the class at level 1.
Apocolypse_77 07-11-07, 04:42 PM	One problem i see with this is that your casters still won't want to take a lvl adjustment, since they will still be fighting the same CR enemies as if they had a caster lvl equal to their lvl adjustment then they will be weaker then if they just went pure caster.
Lawlicron 07-12-07, 01:38 AM	Not really. He said adjust the cr's for the encounters upwards by whatever amount of level adjustment you ignored. So if you ignored +8 LA, then that CR 2 encounter becomes a CR 10 encounter. Just as mentioned make sure to do this by adding more creatures, not by making the creatures harder. However only hand out xp for a CR 2 encounter. Otherwise you'd level crazy fast. We usually start at level 3 to work around that anyways. Gives a bit of lee way for people wanting to play something with a small LA. Under those variant rules I don't think you would have to worry about leveling 'crazy fast' because you would be dead 'crazy fast'.
penchant 07-12-07, 08:53 AM	Under those variant rules I don't think you would have to worry about level 'crazy fast' because you would be dead 'crazy fast'. The alternative is to simply have CR 10 encounters. How is that less dangerous than the variant? A clay golem is a CR 10 encounter. Imagine that with a base class and a template with a total LA of +8 and 2 Hit dice you have to face this enormous damage monster. It is unlikely that you would have time to bring all your special abilities to bear that you bought with those 8 levels before you were clobbered with its first attack (2d10+7). Unless you were a fighter type this would likely bring you below zero in one hit even with some DR. Using the encounter numbers chart on page 49 of the DMG, you can create a CR 10 encounter with a dozen CR 2 or 3 creatures. For defeating them the party only gets credit for the CR 2 or 3 encounter since you equivocated the LCLA (and all party members had a +8 CR). With a +8 LA, the party is sure to have Severe stat bonuses, DR, SR and various other abilties. The reason that multiple creatures pose less of a threat than a single CR 10 monster is that they can more effectively benefit from area effect spells, feats like Cleave and Great Cleave as well as size modifiers with reach. A single burning hands spell from a 2nd level caster will do little to a Clay golem, but to a pack of lions is still effective and useful. It solves the problem of trying to be a spell caster with LA. The fighter is still being swarmed by the lions, but the DR he has is more effective against the many attacks he is taking and is likely negating most of it. DR 5/magic is still beneficial at a CR of 3 modified to 10. Normally a character with a high LA just isn't survivable unless you write them up at high levels. They have half a chance if their class levels equal or exceed their LA. But try playing one from 1st class level sometime and it becomes an excercise in repetitive character creation. There is little reason for a 1st level Vampire to exist as a PC. Its a CR 6 creature with one HD. But if the whole 1st level party is composed of vampires, then you can run them against CR 1 encounters in great numbers (like the town of commoners they are trying to enslave). If there is a better way, let me know. This is the only easy system I can think of to figure out how to let people play the characters they want and still keep them relevant.
snakeman830 07-12-07, 09:25 AM	As I said before. Makes perfect sense to me.
runestar 07-12-07, 10:20 AM	So let me get this straight... Say your players all choose to play drow. Using your variant, all start off effectively as LA+0 drow with the classes of their choice. By your suggestion, they should be pitted against 2 cr1 foes when they should be facing a single cr3 entity. Even though they are technically ECL3 characters, they get xp as though they were ECL1 characters, and use the ECL1 xp progression chart. However, even when they overcome 2 cr1 challenges, they still get xp only as though they had overcome a single cr1 challenge (in effect, all xp rewards are halved). A drow with 1 class lv typically starts off at 3000xp and needs 3000xp to reach ECL4. Each cr3 encounter grants it 900/4 xp or 225xp. He needs 14 encounters to lv. In your game, a drow with 1 class lv needs 1000xp to reach 2nd lv. When he faces 2 cr1 foes, he gets 300/4 xp or 75xp. He too needs 14 encounters to lv. Seems fair enough. But don't take my word on it.:P
Avatar of Kokusho 07-12-07, 11:01 AM	I've done something similar in a world, once. All of the players had a choice between half-celestial and half-fiendish. Reasoning? In this world, unions between the fullblooded versions of these races and mortals were quite common. Since everyone in the party had roughly the same abilities, they recieved no effective level increase. In my mind, effective levels serve as a balancing factor when compared to "normal" party members. Those with superior abilities given to them by virtue of race, template, or whatever ARE more powerful, and the LA reflects that. However, if all party members are of roughly equivalent power levels (as was the case noted above) then the LA should not apply; there's nothing to balance against. The DM can then tailor the encounters based upon her knowledge of the characters' capabilities.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-12-07, 10:08 PM	Level adjustment is a mechanic that does not emulate any real phenomenae, but is a (good) balancing mechanic to allow players a wider range of choices when creating their characters as well as allowing such characters to fit in with the challenge rating system without extreme mental gymnastics. Any NPC that has a LA does not have to pay for that LA with XP or anything else. A dragon, is a dragon and does not know that it should have to get 100 times the amount of XP to pick up a level one class than a human does. It doesn't even know that it should "buy off" its existing LA before progressing in levels just to be fair to elves and dwarves. As long as we all agree with that, then we can move on. If not, then pressing Alt+F4 will solve the problem;) . OK, you could just press 'back' too. People are really timid about picking up high LA races or taking certain class/race combinations (casters by far). I want to try to remove the Lowest Common Level Adjustment or LCLA. If everyone one wants a race with a LA (especially if it is the same race) then simply subtract the LCLD from what they have to pay for. Example, a Drow, a Half Dragon and a Pixie walk into a bar... and form an adventuring group. The Drow has the lowest LA (+2) and thus the Half-Drac only pays for a +1 LA and the Pixie a +2. They use this for Treasure and XP. To modify the encounters to still be challenging, simply increase the CRs of the enouters by the LCLD through the multiple foe method. This ensures that Save DC's, SR, and damage all scale appropriately (give or take) and keep the otherwise gimped spellcasters relevant. rather than taking on more powerful foes (which low HP, low CL, high LA characters do poorly at) they fight swarms of creatures more in line with their class levels. So if your players all want to play Half Ogres, then they can all immediately start with a +0 LA and get their levels immediately... with no magic and only 1000xp needed to get to 2nd level instead of whatever it takes to get to 3rd. Racial Hit dice can't be equivocated in this way so it always counts normally. So what are the problems with this idea? I will likely start implementing this next new game if it seems to hold up to scrutiny. The first problem with this is cheese. Illithids in a level 1 party? I don't think so. Oh, sure, you can have very good role-playing sessions, many classic stories involve parties where the main characters have widely varying power levels. But that is not the right way to deal with it with most gaming groups. Level Adjustment is intended to curb the power of monster characters, and does its purpose admirably.
penchant 07-12-07, 10:51 PM	The first problem with this is cheese. Illithids in a level 1 party? I don't think so. Oh, sure, you can have very good role-playing sessions, many classic stories involve parties where the main characters have widely varying power levels. But that is not the right way to deal with it with most gaming groups. Level Adjustment is intended to curb the power of monster characters, and does its purpose admirably. The idea is that in order for an Illithid to be considered level 1 is for the rest of the party to have the same level adjustment as he does. The Mind Flayer has an LA of +7. So as long as everyone else in the party has an LA +7 race with no racial hit dice then the whole group can be condidered a 1st level party, but they fight CR 8 encounters made up of CR 1 or 2 creatures. If the Mind Flayer is travelling with a party of two vampires (LA +5) then the LCLA is 5 and so the Vampires would then have no LA and the Illithid still has an LA of +2 to deal with.
zae 07-13-07, 07:42 AM	The first problem with this is cheese. Illithids in a level 1 party? I don't think so. It was specifically said that races with hit dice would need to use the rules normally, so an illithid (with 8 racial hit dice) is a bad example. But even so, let's say there was a half-fiend, a creature with the +7 LA of an illithid, a half-dragon and a wight. That's +4, +7, +3 and +5. The half-dragon has +0, the half-fiend has +1, the wight has +2 and the other thing gets +4. The party is still balanced against itself. [/QUOTE]Level Adjustment is intended to curb the power of monster characters, and does its purpose admirably.[/QUOTE] Rubbish. Anyway, I like this idea. It seems quite reasonable, and actually takes care of the issue where high LA characters die all the time, by just having them fight lots of weaker monsters. Sure, they get swarmed, but they can survive it a lot better than one big sucker-punch.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-13-07, 09:47 PM	The idea is that in order for an Illithid to be considered level 1 is for the rest of the party to have the same level adjustment as he does. The Mind Flayer has an LA of +7. So as long as everyone else in the party has an LA +7 race with no racial hit dice then the whole group can be condidered a 1st level party, but they fight CR 8 encounters made up of CR 1 or 2 creatures. If the Mind Flayer is travelling with a party of two vampires (LA +5) then the LCLA is 5 and so the Vampires would then have no LA and the Illithid still has an LA of +2 to deal with. Ah, I understand. You just make the rest of the party equally weak to compensate. Yeah, that's one solution.