Lycanthrope level ajustement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lycanthrope level ajustement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GurfTurf
03-12-07, 04:36 PM In the section create has were' ' things' ', it is registered that the level of the species is added(ex;tigre+5level.ajust). But in the section, player as caracter, it is registered that they is just +3 (which is perhaps stupid). My player want to be a lycanthrope.. which rule do I have want to be made to choose?

Scuse me for traduction French to English
Part-Human2
03-12-07, 04:47 PM Animal HD + LA is right.

LA +2 for Afflicted (by the disease)
LA +3 for Inherinted (born as a Lycanthropy)
Neutronium_Dragon
03-13-07, 01:20 AM The level adjustment is in addition to the animal hit dice. If he wants to be a weretiger, the total ECL is 9 (6 hit dice, +3 LA), so a 1st level whatever weretiger is a 10th level character.
WinterPsionic
03-14-07, 11:48 AM It may also help to note that in the FR setting the LA is reduced by 1 from the core, a Natural being a +2 and an Afflicted being a +1.
Ithreul
03-14-07, 04:12 PM The level adjustment is in addition to the animal hit dice. If he wants to be a weretiger, the total ECL is 9 (6 hit dice, +3 LA), so a 1st level whatever weretiger is a 10th level character.

Just a quick clarification. When you create a werecreature, you must take a certain number of animal hit die it seems. How is this value calculated, or were is the value taken from, because I have had trouble parsing the rules for creating lycanthropes in the MM.

Aditionally, when you create a lycanthrope, do you need to take a level in a class other than animal hit die initially? Therefore forcing you to start off as a level 10 character, or is it legal to simply have 6 hit die and be Tiger 6 with a LA +3. Also, could you start your character at a lower level by say, calculating the values for Tiger 3, and having a level 6 ECL with 3 hit die?

While I'm at it, I might as well ask. How does taking feats work? The way it is explained in the MM made no sense when I went back and looked at the feats the different werecreatures had in their example tables.

Thanks for any and all help,
Ithreul
WinterPsionic
03-14-07, 04:24 PM You use the stats of the base animal, in your case the Tiger, as publish in the Animals section in the back of the monster manual.

A Tiger has 6HD, and a +3 adjustment for a Natural would mean ECL 9, there are ways to do it w/o a class level but it gets rather comlicated.(Unless I overlooked something...which I'm sure I did)

If you wanted to try to tune down the Tiger you can, just remember that somewhere along the lines they'll loose power rather quickly.

As for feats, a Lycan gets 1 feat per 3HD with 1 at 1 HD, so in your case you'd have 6HD if you didn't take a class so that's 3 feats(unless your base race is human which would mean 4), since Tiger's already have 3 you get no actual selection(unless your base human for the 1 extra). All Lycan's also gain Iron Will so the character would have Iron Will, Alertness, Improved Natural Attack(Bite) and Improved Natural Attack(Claw)[human's would get 1 extra feat on top of this as Iron Will is a BONUS feat]

Any other questions? I'll look into making a weretiger w/o a class if you'd like.
The_Shaman
03-14-07, 04:49 PM There was an article on monster progression for lycanthropes somewhere on the site. However, if you want to have only 3 HD, it might be better to simply make a lycanthrope of another large cat, i.e. the leopard.
Ithreul
03-14-07, 05:10 PM The 3HD was just thrown out there as an example really.

There is a campaign a friend of mine is running that was possibly going to join, and there characters are level 8 now. I wanted to go tiger, just because I like the animal, so the hope would be that I could create a 5 HD tiger with that +3 LA. Then, since it seems that by RAW, I need to have 6 tiger HD, I would take one more level of tiger, before taking class levels.

I had been hoping to somehow work in a tiger animal companion, but that might have to be saved for later. I could take levels in sorcerer, and the variant that allows sorcerers an animal companion instead of a familiar, but I don't actually know how well that will work with the character concept.

Anywho, thanks for the info guys!

Ithreul
Neutronium_Dragon
03-14-07, 06:40 PM A lycanthrope works a little differently than most creatures with racial hit dice. They take a class hit die as their first hit die (and get the first level benefits with it), then add the animal form HD on top of that.

It's because it's a template. You need a base creature (which means a class level) before you can apply it.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-14-07, 09:16 PM Coming back to this: If he wants to play a spellcaster, that's generally a bad match with MM lycanthropes because the ECL totally destroys your spellcasting. Likewise, if it's a heavily progression-based class, you'll end up short.

If he's mostly interested in it for theme purposes, you might consider SKR's variant rules in Curse of the Moon, which provide for an ECL +1 or +0 lycanthrope template (no racial hit dice, and LA of +1 or +0): http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/005COTM/
WinterPsionic
03-14-07, 09:54 PM Coming back to this: If he wants to play a spellcaster, that's generally a bad match with MM lycanthropes because the ECL totally destroys your spellcasting. Likewise, if it's a heavily progression-based class, you'll end up short.

If he's mostly interested in it for theme purposes, you might consider SKR's variant rules in Curse of the Moon, which provide for an ECL +1 or +0 lycanthrope template (no racial hit dice, and LA of +1 or +0): http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/005COTM/

*crosses fingers* EVILLL!!!! *hisses*

What do people see in that book? I didn't find it even slightly useful and most of it was either underpowered or overpowered, couldn't seem to find a middle ground.

But he's right it does provide a low level alternative.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-14-07, 10:03 PM Having used it myself since it came out, I haven't found anything in it to be overpowered, and while there are some things that might be underpowered, that's generally because they're included to synergize with some of the variants rather than the standard assumptions.

There are some things which might look like they're too much at first glance, but in practice they don't have the impact you'd expect. (Like Wereform Enhancement, which might look "too good" as a feat - until you realize that it won't stack with the plethora of stat-boosters that exist in the core rules and which pretty much every character is going to be using pretty quickly.)
Morwen
03-15-07, 01:56 AM It may also help to note that in the FR setting the LA is reduced by 1 from the core, a Natural being a +2 and an Afflicted being a +1.

Where is that listed?
WinterPsionic
03-15-07, 02:18 AM Where is that listed?

I thought it was in Underdark but I can't find it there, I'm gonna pour over the books again, I know it have a rather large "side-bar", pretty sure it was even page spanning but as soon as I find it I'll post the page.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-15-07, 11:47 AM It's not reduced in the FR.

"Races of Faerun" printed them as +1 and +2, but RoF was a 3.25 book - it came out during the transition period, and the template as presented there was a preview, subject to further revisions (which happened). The 3.5E MM version supercedes it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GurfTurf 03-12-07, 04:36 PM	In the section create has were' ' things' ', it is registered that the level of the species is added(ex;tigre+5level.ajust). But in the section, player as caracter, it is registered that they is just +3 (which is perhaps stupid). My player want to be a lycanthrope.. which rule do I have want to be made to choose? Scuse me for traduction French to English
Part-Human2 03-12-07, 04:47 PM	Animal HD + LA is right. LA +2 for Afflicted (by the disease) LA +3 for Inherinted (born as a Lycanthropy)
Neutronium_Dragon 03-13-07, 01:20 AM	The level adjustment is in addition to the animal hit dice. If he wants to be a weretiger, the total ECL is 9 (6 hit dice, +3 LA), so a 1st level whatever weretiger is a 10th level character.
WinterPsionic 03-14-07, 11:48 AM	It may also help to note that in the FR setting the LA is reduced by 1 from the core, a Natural being a +2 and an Afflicted being a +1.
Ithreul 03-14-07, 04:12 PM	The level adjustment is in addition to the animal hit dice. If he wants to be a weretiger, the total ECL is 9 (6 hit dice, +3 LA), so a 1st level whatever weretiger is a 10th level character. Just a quick clarification. When you create a werecreature, you must take a certain number of animal hit die it seems. How is this value calculated, or were is the value taken from, because I have had trouble parsing the rules for creating lycanthropes in the MM. Aditionally, when you create a lycanthrope, do you need to take a level in a class other than animal hit die initially? Therefore forcing you to start off as a level 10 character, or is it legal to simply have 6 hit die and be Tiger 6 with a LA +3. Also, could you start your character at a lower level by say, calculating the values for Tiger 3, and having a level 6 ECL with 3 hit die? While I'm at it, I might as well ask. How does taking feats work? The way it is explained in the MM made no sense when I went back and looked at the feats the different werecreatures had in their example tables. Thanks for any and all help, Ithreul
WinterPsionic 03-14-07, 04:24 PM	You use the stats of the base animal, in your case the Tiger, as publish in the Animals section in the back of the monster manual. A Tiger has 6HD, and a +3 adjustment for a Natural would mean ECL 9, there are ways to do it w/o a class level but it gets rather comlicated.(Unless I overlooked something...which I'm sure I did) If you wanted to try to tune down the Tiger you can, just remember that somewhere along the lines they'll loose power rather quickly. As for feats, a Lycan gets 1 feat per 3HD with 1 at 1 HD, so in your case you'd have 6HD if you didn't take a class so that's 3 feats(unless your base race is human which would mean 4), since Tiger's already have 3 you get no actual selection(unless your base human for the 1 extra). All Lycan's also gain Iron Will so the character would have Iron Will, Alertness, Improved Natural Attack(Bite) and Improved Natural Attack(Claw)[human's would get 1 extra feat on top of this as Iron Will is a BONUS feat] Any other questions? I'll look into making a weretiger w/o a class if you'd like.
The_Shaman 03-14-07, 04:49 PM	There was an article on monster progression for lycanthropes somewhere on the site. However, if you want to have only 3 HD, it might be better to simply make a lycanthrope of another large cat, i.e. the leopard.
Ithreul 03-14-07, 05:10 PM	The 3HD was just thrown out there as an example really. There is a campaign a friend of mine is running that was possibly going to join, and there characters are level 8 now. I wanted to go tiger, just because I like the animal, so the hope would be that I could create a 5 HD tiger with that +3 LA. Then, since it seems that by RAW, I need to have 6 tiger HD, I would take one more level of tiger, before taking class levels. I had been hoping to somehow work in a tiger animal companion, but that might have to be saved for later. I could take levels in sorcerer, and the variant that allows sorcerers an animal companion instead of a familiar, but I don't actually know how well that will work with the character concept. Anywho, thanks for the info guys! Ithreul
Neutronium_Dragon 03-14-07, 06:40 PM	A lycanthrope works a little differently than most creatures with racial hit dice. They take a class hit die as their first hit die (and get the first level benefits with it), then add the animal form HD on top of that. It's because it's a template. You need a base creature (which means a class level) before you can apply it.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-14-07, 09:16 PM	Coming back to this: If he wants to play a spellcaster, that's generally a bad match with MM lycanthropes because the ECL totally destroys your spellcasting. Likewise, if it's a heavily progression-based class, you'll end up short. If he's mostly interested in it for theme purposes, you might consider SKR's variant rules in Curse of the Moon, which provide for an ECL +1 or +0 lycanthrope template (no racial hit dice, and LA of +1 or +0): http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/005COTM/
WinterPsionic 03-14-07, 09:54 PM	Coming back to this: If he wants to play a spellcaster, that's generally a bad match with MM lycanthropes because the ECL totally destroys your spellcasting. Likewise, if it's a heavily progression-based class, you'll end up short. If he's mostly interested in it for theme purposes, you might consider SKR's variant rules in Curse of the Moon, which provide for an ECL +1 or +0 lycanthrope template (no racial hit dice, and LA of +1 or +0): http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/005COTM/ crosses fingers EVILLL!!!! hisses What do people see in that book? I didn't find it even slightly useful and most of it was either underpowered or overpowered, couldn't seem to find a middle ground. But he's right it does provide a low level alternative.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-14-07, 10:03 PM	Having used it myself since it came out, I haven't found anything in it to be overpowered, and while there are some things that might be underpowered, that's generally because they're included to synergize with some of the variants rather than the standard assumptions. There are some things which might look like they're too much at first glance, but in practice they don't have the impact you'd expect. (Like Wereform Enhancement, which might look "too good" as a feat - until you realize that it won't stack with the plethora of stat-boosters that exist in the core rules and which pretty much every character is going to be using pretty quickly.)
Morwen 03-15-07, 01:56 AM	It may also help to note that in the FR setting the LA is reduced by 1 from the core, a Natural being a +2 and an Afflicted being a +1. Where is that listed?
WinterPsionic 03-15-07, 02:18 AM	Where is that listed? I thought it was in Underdark but I can't find it there, I'm gonna pour over the books again, I know it have a rather large "side-bar", pretty sure it was even page spanning but as soon as I find it I'll post the page.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-15-07, 11:47 AM	It's not reduced in the FR. "Races of Faerun" printed them as +1 and +2, but RoF was a 3.25 book - it came out during the transition period, and the template as presented there was a preview, subject to further revisions (which happened). The 3.5E MM version supercedes it.