Lycanthropes and Equipment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lycanthropes and Equipment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wizardsd
03-31-07, 10:13 AM I've thought about playing a lycanthrope a couple times, but I stop when I remember that any and all clothing, armor, etc is either ruined and essentially dropped to their feet when use alternate form to animal/hybrid. I'd like to be able to have armor, jewelry, and whatnot, but I'd don't want to have to put them back on after shifting, I would like to be able go "Rarr!" and shift forms and smack someone around without worry.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be helpful please.

Carpe Diem
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0
03-31-07, 10:18 AM Get wildshape armour. I would rule that transforming is akin to wildshape.
Ebonyte
03-31-07, 10:31 AM Also consider Glamoured armor, or armor shaped for size change. I'd rule those as being keepable.

Also, remember that rings and the like transform to the wearer's size, within reason, like in LOTR. Armor and weapons, not so much, but smaller bits, sure.
Can of the Cave Beer
03-31-07, 02:35 PM Talk to your DM about dropping or modifying the rule.

For heavier armors, breast plates, plate mail, etc. I can understand the ruining, but not so much for leather or a chain shirt (so long as the lycanthrope remains in the same size category).

Again, for Leather, padded or even a chain shirt, I would think that it would be possible to craft a normal item with ties, hidden folds, extra "give" or something else that would allow the lycanthrope to change shape (relatively) uninhibited. It would probably have to be Masterwork quality (with an additional cost for the extra labor on top of being Masterwork), though.
calronmoonflower
03-31-07, 02:40 PM You could use the quick release armor from the Arms ans Equipment Guide.
Segan
03-31-07, 03:43 PM Or implement a house rule feat or racial trait that a lycanthrope may be able to take over the equipment when transforming.
Something, that would allow a werewolf to make its equipment merge with its body and thus keeping all the benefits from wearing said equipment.

Things like daggers and arrows of course shouldn't count and should be dropped or at least have no effect (and not usable when merged, obviously).
snakeman830
03-31-07, 04:39 PM I'm not sure where, but I remember reading that cloting and armor were only destroyed if you increased a size category. Magic cloting and armor would survive if they succeded on a fortitude save. (remember, the more valuable magic items that are harder to replace have high saves. A simple set of +4 armor has a base save bonus of +12 on all saves.)

If I find the source, I'll put it up.
El_Machinae
03-31-07, 05:03 PM Play a class that doesn't use armour.
Nova Fujit
03-31-07, 05:13 PM New magic item book has a enchantment for shapchangers...and ton's more of neat little trinkits
Mogarth_Warheart
03-31-07, 05:13 PM I thought in an errata they rules that in hybrid nothing happens and in animal it melds into you.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-31-07, 06:28 PM When the Polymorph errata came out, it specifically struck from the lycanthrope entry the text about equipment being destroyed. They no longer have this problem.

The Magic Item Compendium has further clarified things. Armor, weapons, and shields will remain on the hybrid form as long as it's still medium sized and humanoid in shape (they'll adjust to anything of the same size category and general form), and will meld or fall off otherwise (I don't recall offhand which one the new Alternate Form calls for).

Other types of magical items, such as cloaks, boots, and rings, will reshape and resize to fit any user who has an appropriate body part for the slot they occupy. A snake can't wear rings or gloves since it has no arms, but a wolf can because its forelegs are the equivalent of arms.

Thus, as long as you choose a lycanthrope form that's the same size as your base race, you'll be able to keep using all of your equipment in hybrid form and everything except armor, weapons, and shields in animal form.
Kraven_Redcloak
04-10-07, 05:49 PM Provided you're not playing a monk or any class that doesn't require armor invest in Beastskin Armor as it is designed to transform along with you.

Collars, torcs, and amulets are also a wise investment since they don't fall off even in Hybrid form.

Try to avoid using items such as headbands, circlets, and boots since they don't conform with the characters alternate form, the same goes for gloves.

Bracers can be adjusted to fit both your hybrid and animal form provided you don't grow or shrink a size category.

Earrings can take the place of normal rings and anklets make for better accessories then boots.

Cloaks, Robes, Belts, and tunics are kinda redundant for the same reasons as boots and circlets, most of the time they can't be worn in animal form.

Eyepatches and Third eyes will probably work depending on your alternate form and gauntlets with the morphing and sizing attributes can be useful in all three forms.
Part-Human2
04-10-07, 06:57 PM Alternate Form (Su): ...
* Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Everything resizes for hybrid form. Animal form is non-humanoid in shape so armor melds; ask your DM about other items but the WotC Rules of the Game Article deals with the issue.

Beastskin armor enchantment requires the expenditure of a Wild Shape attempt to work.
Neutronium_Dragon
04-10-07, 07:44 PM > ask your DM about other items but the WotC Rules of the Game Article deals
> with the issue.

As noted, the MIC has essentially ruled that other items (besides armor, weapons, and shields) will always resize/refit to the alternate form unless there's absolutely no equivalent body part.
Spikes01k
04-10-07, 09:55 PM I thought in an errata they rules that in hybrid nothing happens and in animal it melds into you.

This is correct, check the MM1 errata.
mtrpcic
04-11-07, 12:26 AM I once played a Were-Tiger Ninja (nicknamed Tinja). Anyways, Ninjas don't wear armor or they lose a lot of class abilities. Choose a class without armor. Any rings or similar magic items you have are supposed to resize to fit your new form.

Of course, after each transformatio you'll be naked. To remedy this, just buy like 50 sets of clothes and keep them in a bag of holding. Clothes are only like 2 silver a pop.
Neutronium_Dragon
04-11-07, 12:36 AM Or wear magical clothes, since those do resize. The MIC has some nice new robes for the stylish assassin...
SirGeshko
04-12-07, 11:47 AM Somewhat related question: Can lycanthropes cast spells in hybrid form?

I know they can use weapons, (so Somatic components are not a problem), and their belt will stay on them or can be enchanted to resize (takes care of material components).
I can't find anything, anywhere, on whether or not they can speak as a hybrid, or speak with a heavily growl(or roar, caw, squeak, grunt, etc.)-accented speech that prohibits the proper enunciation required while casting spells.

Any thoughts? I'm thinking it might be up to the DM...
Dwarven_Jihad
04-12-07, 01:50 PM Under "Special Attacks", p. 176 in the MM, it states that Lycanthropes can't cast spells with verbal components in hybrid form.

However: I don't know of anything that says they can't *speak*, and there are plenty of speaking monstrous races that somehow manage to cast spells despite their non-human vocal physiology. So, no DM I've ever seen has enforced this particular hybrid-form rule, myself included.
YabaTheWhat
04-12-07, 02:05 PM Using verbal components in hybrid form is like trying to sing with food in your mouth. A person could do it with enough practice, but it makes the task much more difficult. Personally I'd suggest either requiring a special feat or making concentration checks. Monstrous spellcasters actually use a different set of verbal and somatic components taylored to their own physical forms. A druid emulates the same technique using the Natural Spell feat.
Dwarven_Jihad
04-12-07, 02:20 PM Monstrous spellcasters actually use a different set of verbal and somatic components taylored to their own physical forms.

And if they can do it, there's nothing to say a were-critter can't do the same thing.

If pressed to make an actual ruling instead of ignoring it, I would probably:
A) let them blow a feat
B) take a decreasing penalty of some sort until they've finished their animal class progression
Neutronium_Dragon
04-12-07, 02:37 PM One of the 3.0E books had a feat to allow them to cast spells normally in their alternate forms (accounting for full animal form casting too).

However, it's questionable as to whether that limitation should actually remain in place now. It was there because their shapeshifting was based on Polymorph via Alternate Form when the book was written, and now Alternate Form isn't based on Polymorph - which means that the no-verbal limit may actually be an artifact that no longer applies.
SirGeshko
04-12-07, 03:15 PM Under "Special Attacks", p. 176 in the MM, it states that Lycanthropes can't cast spells with verbal components in hybrid form.

Wow... I went over that entire section 5 or 6 times, and I didn't see it until you pointed that out. I feel like a dorkfish now!!

Personally I'd suggest either requiring a special feat or making concentration checks. Monstrous spellcasters actually use a different set of verbal and somatic components taylored to their own physical forms. A druid emulates the same technique using the Natural Spell feat.

Would it make sense then, to allow a lycanthrope the the use of the Natural Spell feat, even without the Wild Shape ability?

I've envisioned a (natural) werewolf simple variant druid (UA: GAIN- Monk unarmored AC bonus and fast movement, and Ranger favored enemy, swift tracker abilites, and bonus Track feat; LOSE- Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape)
The other PCs wouldn't know he's a Lycan until they start to question why he only 'wild shapes' into a wolf, has a wolf for an animal companion despite mechanically better options, never uses silver weapons, or a life-threatening situation forces him to use the hybrid form to get out of a tight scrape.
I see some interesting roleplaying potential in the moment the party realizes what they've been adventuring with. :ayyyy!:
Keenath
04-12-07, 03:15 PM Provided you're not playing a monk or any class that doesn't require armor invest in Beastskin Armor as it is designed to transform along with you. You probably meant Wild armor, which doesn't require spending wildshape attempts that most lycanthrope* characters wouldn't have.

* Lycanthrope is greek for "wolf-man"(lykos meaning wolf, plus anthros meaning man), so the term is inaccurate when applied to anything other than a werewolf. The preferred generic term is "therianthrope", literally, "beast-man".
Neutronium_Dragon
04-12-07, 03:21 PM > never uses silver weapons,

Unlike some other game systems, D&D lycanthropes have no problems with using silver weapons or handling silver in general. It bypasses their DR when someone hits them with it - that's all.

Some lycanthrope NPCs in various books even use silver weapons (in particular the ones who often fight other lycanthropes, such as that Fangshields werewolf in Champions of Valor).
SirGeshko
04-12-07, 05:43 PM Unlike some other game systems, D&D lycanthropes have no problems with using silver weapons or handling silver in general. It bypasses their DR when someone hits them with it - that's all.

Oh, I know. Not using silver weaponry is just something that would add to the character, and give the other PCs another clue to figure things out. Perhaps I'll give him a big scar from the first time he was hit (and crit!) by a silver weapon, which nearly killed him and shook him from his teenage delusions of invincibility.

Besides, IIRC, having DR/silver in hybrid or animal form means the natural weapons of those forms count as silver weapons when overcoming DR.;)
ArcTan
04-12-07, 05:54 PM Oh, I know. Not using silver weaponry is just something that would add to the character, and give the other PCs another clue to figure things out. Perhaps I'll give him a big scar from the first time he was hit (and crit!) by a silver weapon, which nearly killed him and shook him from his teenage delusions of invincibility.

Besides, IIRC, having DR/silver in hybrid or animal form means the natural weapons of those forms count as silver weapons when overcoming DR.;)

Makes sense. In their natural state, lycanthrope packs probably spend a fair amount of time fighting each other for dominance, especially packs of cross-aligned species of lycanthropes (Wererats vs. Werewolves, or Werebears vs. Weretigers).
Neutronium_Dragon
04-12-07, 06:58 PM > Besides, IIRC, having DR/silver in hybrid or animal form means the natural
> weapons of those forms count as silver weapons when overcoming DR.

No, it doesn't. Only DR/Magic and DR/Epic cause your natural weapons to count as that for penetrating DR. This is the reason why lycanthropes who fight lycanthropes generally want silver weapons to do it with.

(Having an alignment subtype means your natural and wielded weapons count as that alignment, but that's independent of whether or not you have have alignment-based DR. Something with DR 5/Alignment but no [Alignment] subtype doesn't bypass DR/Alignment.)
Neutronium_Dragon
04-12-07, 07:03 PM (Adding to the above.)

The Silver Fang feat in Champions of Valor was expressly designed to address this, too: One of its two effects is to cause your natural weapons to count as silver for DR penetration purposes, and it's often taken by lycanthropes for that reason. The catch is that it's only available to members of the Fangshields, which may or may not fit with the character in question.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizardsd 03-31-07, 10:13 AM	I've thought about playing a lycanthrope a couple times, but I stop when I remember that any and all clothing, armor, etc is either ruined and essentially dropped to their feet when use alternate form to animal/hybrid. I'd like to be able to have armor, jewelry, and whatnot, but I'd don't want to have to put them back on after shifting, I would like to be able go "Rarr!" and shift forms and smack someone around without worry. Any thoughts or suggestions would be helpful please. Carpe Diem
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 03-31-07, 10:18 AM	Get wildshape armour. I would rule that transforming is akin to wildshape.
Ebonyte 03-31-07, 10:31 AM	Also consider Glamoured armor, or armor shaped for size change. I'd rule those as being keepable. Also, remember that rings and the like transform to the wearer's size, within reason, like in LOTR. Armor and weapons, not so much, but smaller bits, sure.
Can of the Cave Beer 03-31-07, 02:35 PM	Talk to your DM about dropping or modifying the rule. For heavier armors, breast plates, plate mail, etc. I can understand the ruining, but not so much for leather or a chain shirt (so long as the lycanthrope remains in the same size category). Again, for Leather, padded or even a chain shirt, I would think that it would be possible to craft a normal item with ties, hidden folds, extra "give" or something else that would allow the lycanthrope to change shape (relatively) uninhibited. It would probably have to be Masterwork quality (with an additional cost for the extra labor on top of being Masterwork), though.
calronmoonflower 03-31-07, 02:40 PM	You could use the quick release armor from the Arms ans Equipment Guide.
Segan 03-31-07, 03:43 PM	Or implement a house rule feat or racial trait that a lycanthrope may be able to take over the equipment when transforming. Something, that would allow a werewolf to make its equipment merge with its body and thus keeping all the benefits from wearing said equipment. Things like daggers and arrows of course shouldn't count and should be dropped or at least have no effect (and not usable when merged, obviously).
snakeman830 03-31-07, 04:39 PM	I'm not sure where, but I remember reading that cloting and armor were only destroyed if you increased a size category. Magic cloting and armor would survive if they succeded on a fortitude save. (remember, the more valuable magic items that are harder to replace have high saves. A simple set of +4 armor has a base save bonus of +12 on all saves.) If I find the source, I'll put it up.
El_Machinae 03-31-07, 05:03 PM	Play a class that doesn't use armour.
Nova Fujit 03-31-07, 05:13 PM	New magic item book has a enchantment for shapchangers...and ton's more of neat little trinkits
Mogarth_Warheart 03-31-07, 05:13 PM	I thought in an errata they rules that in hybrid nothing happens and in animal it melds into you.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-31-07, 06:28 PM	When the Polymorph errata came out, it specifically struck from the lycanthrope entry the text about equipment being destroyed. They no longer have this problem. The Magic Item Compendium has further clarified things. Armor, weapons, and shields will remain on the hybrid form as long as it's still medium sized and humanoid in shape (they'll adjust to anything of the same size category and general form), and will meld or fall off otherwise (I don't recall offhand which one the new Alternate Form calls for). Other types of magical items, such as cloaks, boots, and rings, will reshape and resize to fit any user who has an appropriate body part for the slot they occupy. A snake can't wear rings or gloves since it has no arms, but a wolf can because its forelegs are the equivalent of arms. Thus, as long as you choose a lycanthrope form that's the same size as your base race, you'll be able to keep using all of your equipment in hybrid form and everything except armor, weapons, and shields in animal form.
Kraven_Redcloak 04-10-07, 05:49 PM	Provided you're not playing a monk or any class that doesn't require armor invest in Beastskin Armor as it is designed to transform along with you. Collars, torcs, and amulets are also a wise investment since they don't fall off even in Hybrid form. Try to avoid using items such as headbands, circlets, and boots since they don't conform with the characters alternate form, the same goes for gloves. Bracers can be adjusted to fit both your hybrid and animal form provided you don't grow or shrink a size category. Earrings can take the place of normal rings and anklets make for better accessories then boots. Cloaks, Robes, Belts, and tunics are kinda redundant for the same reasons as boots and circlets, most of the time they can't be worn in animal form. Eyepatches and Third eyes will probably work depending on your alternate form and gauntlets with the morphing and sizing attributes can be useful in all three forms.
Part-Human2 04-10-07, 06:57 PM	Alternate Form (Su): ... * Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped. Everything resizes for hybrid form. Animal form is non-humanoid in shape so armor melds; ask your DM about other items but the WotC Rules of the Game Article deals with the issue. Beastskin armor enchantment requires the expenditure of a Wild Shape attempt to work.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-10-07, 07:44 PM	> ask your DM about other items but the WotC Rules of the Game Article deals > with the issue. As noted, the MIC has essentially ruled that other items (besides armor, weapons, and shields) will always resize/refit to the alternate form unless there's absolutely no equivalent body part.
Spikes01k 04-10-07, 09:55 PM	I thought in an errata they rules that in hybrid nothing happens and in animal it melds into you. This is correct, check the MM1 errata.
mtrpcic 04-11-07, 12:26 AM	I once played a Were-Tiger Ninja (nicknamed Tinja). Anyways, Ninjas don't wear armor or they lose a lot of class abilities. Choose a class without armor. Any rings or similar magic items you have are supposed to resize to fit your new form. Of course, after each transformatio you'll be naked. To remedy this, just buy like 50 sets of clothes and keep them in a bag of holding. Clothes are only like 2 silver a pop.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-11-07, 12:36 AM	Or wear magical clothes, since those do resize. The MIC has some nice new robes for the stylish assassin...
SirGeshko 04-12-07, 11:47 AM	Somewhat related question: Can lycanthropes cast spells in hybrid form? I know they can use weapons, (so Somatic components are not a problem), and their belt will stay on them or can be enchanted to resize (takes care of material components). I can't find anything, anywhere, on whether or not they can speak as a hybrid, or speak with a heavily growl(or roar, caw, squeak, grunt, etc.)-accented speech that prohibits the proper enunciation required while casting spells. Any thoughts? I'm thinking it might be up to the DM...
Dwarven_Jihad 04-12-07, 01:50 PM	Under "Special Attacks", p. 176 in the MM, it states that Lycanthropes can't cast spells with verbal components in hybrid form. However: I don't know of anything that says they can't speak, and there are plenty of speaking monstrous races that somehow manage to cast spells despite their non-human vocal physiology. So, no DM I've ever seen has enforced this particular hybrid-form rule, myself included.
YabaTheWhat 04-12-07, 02:05 PM	Using verbal components in hybrid form is like trying to sing with food in your mouth. A person could do it with enough practice, but it makes the task much more difficult. Personally I'd suggest either requiring a special feat or making concentration checks. Monstrous spellcasters actually use a different set of verbal and somatic components taylored to their own physical forms. A druid emulates the same technique using the Natural Spell feat.
Dwarven_Jihad 04-12-07, 02:20 PM	Monstrous spellcasters actually use a different set of verbal and somatic components taylored to their own physical forms. And if they can do it, there's nothing to say a were-critter can't do the same thing. If pressed to make an actual ruling instead of ignoring it, I would probably: A) let them blow a feat B) take a decreasing penalty of some sort until they've finished their animal class progression
Neutronium_Dragon 04-12-07, 02:37 PM	One of the 3.0E books had a feat to allow them to cast spells normally in their alternate forms (accounting for full animal form casting too). However, it's questionable as to whether that limitation should actually remain in place now. It was there because their shapeshifting was based on Polymorph via Alternate Form when the book was written, and now Alternate Form isn't based on Polymorph - which means that the no-verbal limit may actually be an artifact that no longer applies.
SirGeshko 04-12-07, 03:15 PM	Under "Special Attacks", p. 176 in the MM, it states that Lycanthropes can't cast spells with verbal components in hybrid form. Wow... I went over that entire section 5 or 6 times, and I didn't see it until you pointed that out. I feel like a dorkfish now!! Personally I'd suggest either requiring a special feat or making concentration checks. Monstrous spellcasters actually use a different set of verbal and somatic components taylored to their own physical forms. A druid emulates the same technique using the Natural Spell feat. Would it make sense then, to allow a lycanthrope the the use of the Natural Spell feat, even without the Wild Shape ability? I've envisioned a (natural) werewolf simple variant druid (UA: GAIN- Monk unarmored AC bonus and fast movement, and Ranger favored enemy, swift tracker abilites, and bonus Track feat; LOSE- Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape) The other PCs wouldn't know he's a Lycan until they start to question why he only 'wild shapes' into a wolf, has a wolf for an animal companion despite mechanically better options, never uses silver weapons, or a life-threatening situation forces him to use the hybrid form to get out of a tight scrape. I see some interesting roleplaying potential in the moment the party realizes what they've been adventuring with. :ayyyy!:
Keenath 04-12-07, 03:15 PM	Provided you're not playing a monk or any class that doesn't require armor invest in Beastskin Armor as it is designed to transform along with you. You probably meant Wild armor, which doesn't require spending wildshape attempts that most lycanthrope* characters wouldn't have. * Lycanthrope is greek for "wolf-man"(lykos meaning wolf, plus anthros meaning man), so the term is inaccurate when applied to anything other than a werewolf. The preferred generic term is "therianthrope", literally, "beast-man".
Neutronium_Dragon 04-12-07, 03:21 PM	> never uses silver weapons, Unlike some other game systems, D&D lycanthropes have no problems with using silver weapons or handling silver in general. It bypasses their DR when someone hits them with it - that's all. Some lycanthrope NPCs in various books even use silver weapons (in particular the ones who often fight other lycanthropes, such as that Fangshields werewolf in Champions of Valor).
SirGeshko 04-12-07, 05:43 PM	Unlike some other game systems, D&D lycanthropes have no problems with using silver weapons or handling silver in general. It bypasses their DR when someone hits them with it - that's all. Oh, I know. Not using silver weaponry is just something that would add to the character, and give the other PCs another clue to figure things out. Perhaps I'll give him a big scar from the first time he was hit (and crit!) by a silver weapon, which nearly killed him and shook him from his teenage delusions of invincibility. Besides, IIRC, having DR/silver in hybrid or animal form means the natural weapons of those forms count as silver weapons when overcoming DR.;)
ArcTan 04-12-07, 05:54 PM	Oh, I know. Not using silver weaponry is just something that would add to the character, and give the other PCs another clue to figure things out. Perhaps I'll give him a big scar from the first time he was hit (and crit!) by a silver weapon, which nearly killed him and shook him from his teenage delusions of invincibility. Besides, IIRC, having DR/silver in hybrid or animal form means the natural weapons of those forms count as silver weapons when overcoming DR.;) Makes sense. In their natural state, lycanthrope packs probably spend a fair amount of time fighting each other for dominance, especially packs of cross-aligned species of lycanthropes (Wererats vs. Werewolves, or Werebears vs. Weretigers).
Neutronium_Dragon 04-12-07, 06:58 PM	> Besides, IIRC, having DR/silver in hybrid or animal form means the natural > weapons of those forms count as silver weapons when overcoming DR. No, it doesn't. Only DR/Magic and DR/Epic cause your natural weapons to count as that for penetrating DR. This is the reason why lycanthropes who fight lycanthropes generally want silver weapons to do it with. (Having an alignment subtype means your natural and wielded weapons count as that alignment, but that's independent of whether or not you have have alignment-based DR. Something with DR 5/Alignment but no [Alignment] subtype doesn't bypass DR/Alignment.)
Neutronium_Dragon 04-12-07, 07:03 PM	(Adding to the above.) The Silver Fang feat in Champions of Valor was expressly designed to address this, too: One of its two effects is to cause your natural weapons to count as silver for DR penetration purposes, and it's often taken by lycanthropes for that reason. The catch is that it's only available to members of the Fangshields, which may or may not fit with the character in question.