Making Drow LA +1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Making Drow LA +1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JohnOSpencer
07-01-07, 07:56 PM Hello All,
Do you think it would be balanced to make Drow LA +1 by removing just the SR? How about by removing the SR and CHA bonus.

I'm working on the races for my custom campaign world and trying to fit all the PC races as LA +1 at most.

Thanks!
Neutronium_Dragon
07-01-07, 08:08 PM Just removing the SR is probably enough to drop them to LA +1.
AMGriffin
07-01-07, 09:26 PM I'd consider replacing the SR with a +4 bonus on saves against spells or spell-like abilities.
Holy_Beholder
07-01-07, 09:28 PM Drop cha, they are barely LA +2 as it is.
Jaxgaret
07-01-07, 09:30 PM I'd consider replacing the SR with a +4 bonus on saves against spells or spell-like abilities.

That's actually a pretty darn good idea. The SR is almost useless, but a straight bonus to saves vs. spells a la the Dwarf's (but stronger) makes sense.
JohnOSpencer
07-01-07, 09:39 PM I'd consider replacing the SR with a +4 bonus on saves against spells or spell-like abilities.
Well, they already get a +2. I'm just not sure dropping the SR is enough to balance them with some of the LA 1 races I'm using, such as Duregar and Half Giants. It may balance ok with Aasimar and Tiefling.
Deirheim
07-03-07, 05:10 PM Hello All,
Do you think it would be balanced to make Drow LA +1 by removing just the SR? How about by removing the SR and CHA bonus.

I'm working on the races for my custom campaign world and trying to fit all the PC races as LA +1 at most.

Thanks!

I've found a solution for this, that i used for my warmage drow... The "Deep Drow" --> Up the vulnerability to light, like always being nauseated, or blinded while being in bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell.

My Khyrvold always need to be covered and keep his dark googles while moving outdoors, and if the someone put them off (with grapple or somelike ) he's very vulnerable. You can cut LA with that, if you discuss with your DM and bargain.
Nat_20
07-03-07, 06:53 PM My custom Drow for my home campaign involves using the Drow from the Monster Manual, but dropping the SR, Changing the racial weapon proficiencies and spell like abilities, and giving them a +2 to all saving throws vs. magical effects(this replaces the SR).

now give them kind of an Egyptian culture and you have "The Delithriin, Dark Elves"

They have proven to be a fun and balanced race. I also have a Commoner type of them that involves removing the + 2 Int and Cha, and only having one spell-like ability. for those campaigns where the players start off at 1st level...

I say you should try something similar to this for yours.
AMGriffin
07-03-07, 08:06 PM Well, they already get a +2. I'm just not sure dropping the SR is enough to balance them with some of the LA 1 races I'm using, such as Duregar and Half Giants. It may balance ok with Aasimar and Tiefling.

Only on will saves. This does not include spells that require a fortitude or reflex save. I think it sorta puts them on par with Druegar and Half-Giants, they're more or less superior to the regular elf anyway.

Another thing to consider is removing the CON penalty. That's a real deal breaker for any LA.
JohnOSpencer
07-03-07, 08:27 PM Only on will saves. This does not include spells that require a fortitude or reflex save. I think it sorta puts them on par with Druegar and Half-Giants, they're more or less superior to the regular elf anyway.

Another thing to consider is removing the CON penalty. That's a real deal breaker for any LA.
Fair enough, I hadn't noticed that. Not sure about removing the con penalty, that would definitely make them more powerful than the other LA+1 races and kill a little of the flavor of the race.

So I guess the underlying question is: Is this balanced for a LA+1 race:
+2 DEX, INT, CHA
-2 CON
Darkvison 120'
Light Blindness
+2 to all saves vs Magic
+2 to Listen, Search and Spot
Free WP with Short Sword, Rapier and Hand Crossbow
Drow SLAs

Just seems like a lot for LA +1, especially since I was thinking of giving them +2 hide and MS in dark or shadowy areas.
Polaris
07-03-07, 08:53 PM Fair enough, I hadn't noticed that. Not sure about removing the con penalty, that would definitely make them more powerful than the other LA+1 races and kill a little of the flavor of the race.

So I guess the underlying question is: Is this balanced for a LA+1 race:
+2 DEX, INT, CHA
-2 CON
Darkvison 120'
Light Blindness
+2 to all saves vs Magic
+2 to Listen, Search and Spot
Free WP with Short Sword, Rapier and Hand Crossbow
Drow SLAs

Just seems like a lot for LA +1, especially since I was thinking of giving them +2 hide and MS in dark or shadowy areas.

Absolutely it's balanced at LA+1. It really isn't much different than a Tiefling which gets:

+2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Cha
Outsider Type
All Martial and Simple Weapon Profs
5/- ER against cold, electricity, and fire (three very common attacks)
60' Darkvision
+2 Bluff and Hide
Tiefling SLAs

The point is that a Dark Elf as written has to be LA+2 but honestly is barely LA+2. If one were to simply give them balanced stats (net attribute modifier equal to zero), then they'd be just fine as LA+1 even WITH the SR. If you remove the SR, and increased the saves vs magic to +4, you definately have a race that's very much in line with LA+1 (and not even a terribly strong LA+1).

-Polaris
Kobold_Avenger
07-10-07, 03:11 AM Tieflings are sady sort of under powered.
AMGriffin
07-10-07, 06:11 AM Yeah, don't be afraid to remove their constitution penalty.

After all, look at LA+1 races like the catfolk or Draconic template.
Rowan_Whispercloak
07-10-07, 06:46 AM There are also the bariaur from the planar handbook that had, unbalanced stats, SR, outsider type, and some other assorted goodie all in a LA +1 (with no racial HD) package so if you want to lower the LA on the Drow go ahead.
bpkri
07-10-07, 09:57 AM I'd not drop the SR, but then again, I think it depends heavily on on which level you play. If you start at Level 1-5 I suppose LA+2 ist okay for the Drow. In fact I'd think you should keep it around above somewhat. At around level 10 have doubts as to the LA+2 - the SR still is neat, as are the attribute-increases, yet the cost in HP/BAB/Spells/Saves... well pretty much everything else clearly outweight LA+2 already. By then you could drop then to LA+1. Above 10, say around 15, I don't see any good reason for any LA anymore.
Sure the SR is neat, but nothing you couldn't have arttained another way by then. The few +1 Bonusey via attributes are also still there, but provide no advantage anymore (IMHO).

If you really wanna change the drow, I'd say removing the SR would be quite enough to drop the LA to +1. All the other adjustments are rather hard to judge. But I also think that humans with their additional Skill point each level and the extra feat plus free choice of favoured class are on the broder of being LA+1 rather than 0... but that's also just my opinion.

The problem is that the LA doesn't scale with the levels. I'm a huge fan of the ECL buyoff rules in Unearthed Arcana.

Note to self: Less ranting next time.
Shadowfax7
07-10-07, 01:09 PM If you really wanna change the drow, I'd say removing the SR would be quite enough to drop the LA to +1. I agree that dropping the SR will reduce the Drow to LA +1.

IMO dropping ALL the spell-like abilities and keeping the SR would also reduce the Drow to LA +1.
RobbyPants
07-10-07, 01:44 PM Fair enough, I hadn't noticed that. Not sure about removing the con penalty, that would definitely make them more powerful than the other LA+1 races and kill a little of the flavor of the race.

So I guess the underlying question is: Is this balanced for a LA+1 race:
+2 DEX, INT, CHA
-2 CON
Darkvison 120'
Light Blindness
+2 to all saves vs Magic
+2 to Listen, Search and Spot
Free WP with Short Sword, Rapier and Hand Crossbow
Drow SLAs

Just seems like a lot for LA +1, especially since I was thinking of giving them +2 hide and MS in dark or shadowy areas.
I agree in that this seems like a pretty good (balanced) LA +1.

Be careful comparing them to tieflings and aasimar. I'd say probably half of the LA for them comes from their Outsider (Native) type, which renders them immune to many common spells. Plus they get three energy resistances that the drow do not.
Shadowfax7
07-10-07, 08:30 PM Just seems like a lot for LA +1, especially since I was thinking of giving them +2 hide and MS in dark or shadowy areas.I wouldn't give them this . . . they already get a +1 to Hide and Move Silently all the time, not just in shadowy areas, from their Dex bonus.
key
07-12-07, 03:30 PM I'm working on the races for my custom campaign world and trying to fit all the PC races as LA +1 at most.

Thanks!
At the end of Drow of the Underdark, it shows a Drow you can play from the beginning with no level adjustment. It lays out the stats and everything.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JohnOSpencer 07-01-07, 07:56 PM	Hello All, Do you think it would be balanced to make Drow LA +1 by removing just the SR? How about by removing the SR and CHA bonus. I'm working on the races for my custom campaign world and trying to fit all the PC races as LA +1 at most. Thanks!
Neutronium_Dragon 07-01-07, 08:08 PM	Just removing the SR is probably enough to drop them to LA +1.
AMGriffin 07-01-07, 09:26 PM	I'd consider replacing the SR with a +4 bonus on saves against spells or spell-like abilities.
Holy_Beholder 07-01-07, 09:28 PM	Drop cha, they are barely LA +2 as it is.
Jaxgaret 07-01-07, 09:30 PM	I'd consider replacing the SR with a +4 bonus on saves against spells or spell-like abilities. That's actually a pretty darn good idea. The SR is almost useless, but a straight bonus to saves vs. spells a la the Dwarf's (but stronger) makes sense.
JohnOSpencer 07-01-07, 09:39 PM	I'd consider replacing the SR with a +4 bonus on saves against spells or spell-like abilities. Well, they already get a +2. I'm just not sure dropping the SR is enough to balance them with some of the LA 1 races I'm using, such as Duregar and Half Giants. It may balance ok with Aasimar and Tiefling.
Deirheim 07-03-07, 05:10 PM	Hello All, Do you think it would be balanced to make Drow LA +1 by removing just the SR? How about by removing the SR and CHA bonus. I'm working on the races for my custom campaign world and trying to fit all the PC races as LA +1 at most. Thanks! I've found a solution for this, that i used for my warmage drow... The "Deep Drow" --> Up the vulnerability to light, like always being nauseated, or blinded while being in bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell. My Khyrvold always need to be covered and keep his dark googles while moving outdoors, and if the someone put them off (with grapple or somelike ) he's very vulnerable. You can cut LA with that, if you discuss with your DM and bargain.
Nat_20 07-03-07, 06:53 PM	My custom Drow for my home campaign involves using the Drow from the Monster Manual, but dropping the SR, Changing the racial weapon proficiencies and spell like abilities, and giving them a +2 to all saving throws vs. magical effects(this replaces the SR). now give them kind of an Egyptian culture and you have "The Delithriin, Dark Elves" They have proven to be a fun and balanced race. I also have a Commoner type of them that involves removing the + 2 Int and Cha, and only having one spell-like ability. for those campaigns where the players start off at 1st level... I say you should try something similar to this for yours.
AMGriffin 07-03-07, 08:06 PM	Well, they already get a +2. I'm just not sure dropping the SR is enough to balance them with some of the LA 1 races I'm using, such as Duregar and Half Giants. It may balance ok with Aasimar and Tiefling. Only on will saves. This does not include spells that require a fortitude or reflex save. I think it sorta puts them on par with Druegar and Half-Giants, they're more or less superior to the regular elf anyway. Another thing to consider is removing the CON penalty. That's a real deal breaker for any LA.
JohnOSpencer 07-03-07, 08:27 PM	Only on will saves. This does not include spells that require a fortitude or reflex save. I think it sorta puts them on par with Druegar and Half-Giants, they're more or less superior to the regular elf anyway. Another thing to consider is removing the CON penalty. That's a real deal breaker for any LA. Fair enough, I hadn't noticed that. Not sure about removing the con penalty, that would definitely make them more powerful than the other LA+1 races and kill a little of the flavor of the race. So I guess the underlying question is: Is this balanced for a LA+1 race: +2 DEX, INT, CHA -2 CON Darkvison 120' Light Blindness +2 to all saves vs Magic +2 to Listen, Search and Spot Free WP with Short Sword, Rapier and Hand Crossbow Drow SLAs Just seems like a lot for LA +1, especially since I was thinking of giving them +2 hide and MS in dark or shadowy areas.
Polaris 07-03-07, 08:53 PM	Fair enough, I hadn't noticed that. Not sure about removing the con penalty, that would definitely make them more powerful than the other LA+1 races and kill a little of the flavor of the race. So I guess the underlying question is: Is this balanced for a LA+1 race: +2 DEX, INT, CHA -2 CON Darkvison 120' Light Blindness +2 to all saves vs Magic +2 to Listen, Search and Spot Free WP with Short Sword, Rapier and Hand Crossbow Drow SLAs Just seems like a lot for LA +1, especially since I was thinking of giving them +2 hide and MS in dark or shadowy areas. Absolutely it's balanced at LA+1. It really isn't much different than a Tiefling which gets: +2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Cha Outsider Type All Martial and Simple Weapon Profs 5/- ER against cold, electricity, and fire (three very common attacks) 60' Darkvision +2 Bluff and Hide Tiefling SLAs The point is that a Dark Elf as written has to be LA+2 but honestly is barely LA+2. If one were to simply give them balanced stats (net attribute modifier equal to zero), then they'd be just fine as LA+1 even WITH the SR. If you remove the SR, and increased the saves vs magic to +4, you definately have a race that's very much in line with LA+1 (and not even a terribly strong LA+1). -Polaris
Kobold_Avenger 07-10-07, 03:11 AM	Tieflings are sady sort of under powered.
AMGriffin 07-10-07, 06:11 AM	Yeah, don't be afraid to remove their constitution penalty. After all, look at LA+1 races like the catfolk or Draconic template.
Rowan_Whispercloak 07-10-07, 06:46 AM	There are also the bariaur from the planar handbook that had, unbalanced stats, SR, outsider type, and some other assorted goodie all in a LA +1 (with no racial HD) package so if you want to lower the LA on the Drow go ahead.
bpkri 07-10-07, 09:57 AM	I'd not drop the SR, but then again, I think it depends heavily on on which level you play. If you start at Level 1-5 I suppose LA+2 ist okay for the Drow. In fact I'd think you should keep it around above somewhat. At around level 10 have doubts as to the LA+2 - the SR still is neat, as are the attribute-increases, yet the cost in HP/BAB/Spells/Saves... well pretty much everything else clearly outweight LA+2 already. By then you could drop then to LA+1. Above 10, say around 15, I don't see any good reason for any LA anymore. Sure the SR is neat, but nothing you couldn't have arttained another way by then. The few +1 Bonusey via attributes are also still there, but provide no advantage anymore (IMHO). If you really wanna change the drow, I'd say removing the SR would be quite enough to drop the LA to +1. All the other adjustments are rather hard to judge. But I also think that humans with their additional Skill point each level and the extra feat plus free choice of favoured class are on the broder of being LA+1 rather than 0... but that's also just my opinion. The problem is that the LA doesn't scale with the levels. I'm a huge fan of the ECL buyoff rules in Unearthed Arcana. Note to self: Less ranting next time.
Shadowfax7 07-10-07, 01:09 PM	If you really wanna change the drow, I'd say removing the SR would be quite enough to drop the LA to +1. I agree that dropping the SR will reduce the Drow to LA +1. IMO dropping ALL the spell-like abilities and keeping the SR would also reduce the Drow to LA +1.
RobbyPants 07-10-07, 01:44 PM	Fair enough, I hadn't noticed that. Not sure about removing the con penalty, that would definitely make them more powerful than the other LA+1 races and kill a little of the flavor of the race. So I guess the underlying question is: Is this balanced for a LA+1 race: +2 DEX, INT, CHA -2 CON Darkvison 120' Light Blindness +2 to all saves vs Magic +2 to Listen, Search and Spot Free WP with Short Sword, Rapier and Hand Crossbow Drow SLAs Just seems like a lot for LA +1, especially since I was thinking of giving them +2 hide and MS in dark or shadowy areas. I agree in that this seems like a pretty good (balanced) LA +1. Be careful comparing them to tieflings and aasimar. I'd say probably half of the LA for them comes from their Outsider (Native) type, which renders them immune to many common spells. Plus they get three energy resistances that the drow do not.
Shadowfax7 07-10-07, 08:30 PM	Just seems like a lot for LA +1, especially since I was thinking of giving them +2 hide and MS in dark or shadowy areas.I wouldn't give them this . . . they already get a +1 to Hide and Move Silently all the time, not just in shadowy areas, from their Dex bonus.
key 07-12-07, 03:30 PM	I'm working on the races for my custom campaign world and trying to fit all the PC races as LA +1 at most. Thanks! At the end of Drow of the Underdark, it shows a Drow you can play from the beginning with no level adjustment. It lays out the stats and everything.