Post/Author/DateTime	Post
elr1c 03-28-07, 05:41 PM	I would like to play a Marilith, bacause... I think is funny ^^ Is there anyone who can tell me the bonus of this race and the LEP and the Feat? I din't find these information anywhere :banghead: :weep: Pleeeeeese, help me
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-28-07, 06:24 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith Marilith has no LA listed, and does not advance by class. If it did have a Level Adjustment, it would probably be epic (as a marilith can already wipe the floor with most level 20 fighter builds), and it's very difficult to determine power levels at epic level. It would be possible to play a watered-down version of the marilith using my generic Hit Die progressions. You would have to make a new Ability A granting an extra weapon each time you take it. http://www.kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf
runestar 03-28-07, 10:32 PM	Mariliths can take class lvs. Just because its advancement line states a HD progression does not automatically exclude class lvs, since the consensus is that any creature with an int score of at least 3 is eligible for class lvs.:) Ability to wield 6 weapons with no penalties whatsoever and powerful stat bonuses - definitely epic territory. Around ECL24?
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-28-07, 11:20 PM	Ability to wield 6 weapons with no penalties whatsoever and powerful stat bonuses - definitely epic territory. Around ECL24? Much higher. Outsider Hit Dice are very nice, they get very good ability scores, the multiweapon fighting is very powerful, and they get standard demon traits and spell-like abilities. I haven't had experience with epic play, so I couldn't place a solid number on it.
PhaedrusXY 03-28-07, 11:32 PM	Outsider hit dice still aren't worth as much as class levels (except fighter levels :D ).
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-29-07, 02:01 AM	Outsider hit dice still aren't worth as much as class levels (except fighter levels :D ). Well, they get full BAB, d8 hit points, 8 + Int mod skill points, all good saves, and free proficiencies. Pretty significant when you factor the racial abilities in (though not quite as good as fighter levels with regards to combat, Fighters get enough bonus feats to make it count).
runestar 03-29-07, 04:19 AM	Lets see what they get... +18str, +8dex, +18con, +8int, +8wis, +14cha, +16NA, demon traits, dr10/good+cold iron, large size, trueseeing, superior MWFing capabilities and some decent SLAs. After taking into account her 16 outsider HD, I would say the above is still worth some LA+7-8 at least.
elr1c 03-30-07, 04:05 PM	Lets see what they get... +18str, +8dex, +18con, +8int, +8wis, +14cha, +16NA, demon traits, dr10/good+cold iron, large size, trueseeing, superior MWFing capabilities and some decent SLAs. After taking into account her 16 outsider HD, I would say the above is still worth some LA+7-8 at least. Tnx, my Marilith would be epic level ^^ PS: A Marilith Warlock... 'cause, IMHO, it's way too cool :D :D :D
The_Shaman 03-30-07, 04:24 PM	Hmm, I can't help but think about a Marilith Weaponmaster (OA). Ouch. Put in ToB and things can really start looking fun.
Grizzled Gryphon 03-30-07, 08:59 PM	A Maralith Warblade? Yeah, that would be pretty sick. Definetly epic, though. Has anyone tried coming up with a Savage Species Progression? Not exactly optimal, but might be doable.
Kresalak 03-30-07, 09:15 PM	Here are the stats for a Marilith that doesn't make you suck. Marilith (Minimum Level 18) Large size 40 foot movement Darkvision 60 feet +8 to Listen and Spot Outsider type (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil subtypes) 6 arms, which comes with 6 slam attacks for 1d8+Str +16 Strength, +8 Dex, +14 Constitution, +10 Intelligence, +8 Wisdom +10 Charisma +16 natural armor Tail slap 4d6+.5*Str Constrict 4d6+1.5*Str Improved Grab (Tail Slap) Spell-Like Abilities Summon Demon DR 10/iron and good Immunity to electricity and poison Resistance 10 to acid, cold, and fire Spell Resistance equal to CR+8, base 26 Telepathy 100 feet True Seeing Multiweapon Fighting allows you to attack with all arms at no penalty 18 Outsider hit dice (18d8 hp, 8+Int bonus*21 skill points, Fort +11/Ref +11/Will +11, +18 BAB) Favored class something Speaks Abyssal and some other stuff
Roivas 03-30-07, 09:21 PM	I'd place the Marlilth at a whoppping ECL of 28th level, and I still think I'm being rather generous there. But how would one justify a marlilth adventurer, assuming a GM would ever let you play one?
Argaud 03-30-07, 09:36 PM	I'd place the Marlilth at a whoppping ECL of 28th level, and I still think I'm being rather generous there. But how would one justify a marlilth adventurer, assuming a GM would ever let you play one? I'd say LA+6. She is powerful, but at the level she is going to start (24!) many of her powers are pretty much irrelevant. SR 26, for instance, is as good as nothing. DR10/good and iron is not going to be too awesome when about half her enemies will have DRX/epic or epic weapons and cut through her DR easily, and the other half will hit for 100 hp with each attack. Etc, etc. That leaves: Large (LA+1), Outisder type (+1, it is an awesome type), huge ability bonus (+1, would be +2 if it was -just- this, but considering all the rest...), very good slas (+1, because she has stuff like constant true seeing and greater teleport at will), huge natural armor (+1, NA is good almost all the time) and all the rest of the stuff (+1, and that being a bit conservative).
The_Shaman 03-30-07, 10:31 PM	Perhaps LA+7 would be better under the circumstances. Yes, alone, a lot of its abilities don't measure up to a +1, but together...
Lotus Crane 03-31-07, 03:21 AM	Creatures with enough racial HD are typically entitled to a much lower LA than their abilities suggest, since those abilities are basically the "class abilities" of their racial HD. The question should not be "how much LA are the Marilith's abilities worth," it should be "would a normal character with 16 class levels be this powerful?" And by normal character, let's not bother using fighter as the baseline; use warblade instead. As far as I'm concerned, because most of her abilities are obsoleted (or at least eclipsed) by or before epic levels, I'd say that the standard marilith as presented in the MM I is probably ECL 20 (CoDzilla 20 would still be a more useful party member, and might even beat her in combat). Thus, once a marilith gains her first class level, she'd be ECL 21 and an epic character. Remember, she has no real way of further progressing her racial abilities, and she'll be gaining low-level class abilities (color spray and magic missile aren't going to be doing anything at 21st level) at a time when other characters are gaining epic abilities.
runestar 03-31-07, 08:48 AM	Remember, she has no real way of further progressing her racial abilities, and she'll be gaining low-level class abilities (color spray and magic missile aren't going to be doing anything at 21st level) at a time when other characters are gaining epic abilities.\ And why is a marilith taking lvs of spellcaster? Poor class design is not an excuse to discount LA... Creatures with enough racial HD are typically entitled to a much lower LA than their abilities suggest, since those abilities are basically the "class abilities" of their racial HD. The question should not be "how much LA are the Marilith's abilities worth," it should be "would a normal character with 16 class levels be this powerful?" And by normal character, let's not bother using fighter as the baseline; use warblade instead. We have already taken the 16 racial HD into account when deciding on a LA to assign. Her capabilities clearly bring her to epic lvs, since I do not see how they can be replicated by class lvs even up to lv20.
Kresalak 03-31-07, 12:41 PM	Err, by Shapechanging into a Marilith? That's not even a good use of the spell, so I don't see why a normal Marilith couldn't be played at level 18 or something.
The_Shaman 03-31-07, 04:40 PM	Hmm, that would be a good shape for whoever is playing a shifter (3.0 MoMF, more forms) :) . Still, let's be honest - a creature accessible by Shapechange could probably blow most non-spellcasting melee characters out of the water anyway.
Kresalak 03-31-07, 04:41 PM	No one cares, since melee characters can't do level appropriate things anyway.
The_Shaman 03-31-07, 04:46 PM	No one? Or perhaps full casters can do much more than the appropriate things per level, if they use their heads. A marilith, as a mostly combat adversary should be approximately equal to a warrior PC of its ECL, not to an archmage.
Kresalak 03-31-07, 04:52 PM	Or perhaps full casters can do much more than the appropriate things per level, if they use their heads. A marilith, as a mostly combat adversary should be approximately equal to a warrior PC of its ECL. Ok, then tell me how a, say, 23rd level Marilith PC (going by your LA +7) is supposed to contribute in a party that fights a Marilith Dervish 5? A 23rd level PC is supposed to equal a CR 23 monster, but the Marilith is only CR 18 (17+1 for PC wealth).
Argaud 03-31-07, 05:54 PM	Ok, then tell me how a, say, 23rd level Marilith PC (going by your LA +7) is supposed to contribute in a party that fights a Marilith Dervish 5? A 23rd level PC is supposed to equal a CR 23 monster, but the Marilith is only CR 18 (17+1 for PC wealth). CR17 + 1 (elite) + 2 (PC wealth, +1 would be NPC wealth) = CR 20 However this is very deceptive. No PC, even at epic levels, can do much of the stuff a marilith can do. +16 natural amor puts her into the 60s of AC even with the gear of a level 20 character (at level 23 she might hit ~65). The DC of her constrict will be over 30. The combo of Project Image at will and infinite Blade Barriers (force damage) is very deadly (particularly in the hands of a PC that won't play the marilith as a raging melee-obsessed berserker).
lord_zack 03-31-07, 06:08 PM	CR does not equal ECL. A group of four ECL 23 PC should be able to take on a CR 23 monster. That's all it means.
The_Shaman 03-31-07, 07:05 PM	Ok, then tell me how a, say, 23rd level Marilith PC (going by your LA +7) is supposed to contribute in a party that fights a Marilith Dervish 5? A 23rd level PC is supposed to equal a CR 23 monster, but the Marilith is only CR 18 (17+1 for PC wealth). It's a CR 23 monster as CR represents the threat it offers for a party. The two mariliths duke it out, and the rest of the party helps its own one.
Lotus Crane 03-31-07, 09:15 PM	We have already taken the 16 racial HD into account when deciding on a LA to assign. Her capabilities clearly bring her to epic lvs, since I do not see how they can be replicated by class lvs even up to lv20. Yes, but conversely, there are many things 20th level PC's can do (8th-9th level spells/maneuvers, Mighty Rage, Evasion, hell even Weapon Supremacy) that the marilith can't. To each her own; fair is fair. CR does not equal ECL. A group of four ECL 23 PC should be able to take on a CR 23 monster. That's all it means. It's assumed that a party is supposed to almost always (95% or more of the time) overcome an appropriate CR encounter; it's just a matter of how many resources are expended to do so. A single PC however, is only supposed to have a 50% chance of actually overcoming an appropriate CR encounter by himself. In any event, even with an elite array of starting ability scores (before racial modifiers), and PC wealth, there's no way that the standard marilith (CR 17) is possibly more than an ECL 20 character. 20th level CoDzillas would still mop the floor with one, and of course wizards can just gate in solars. Heck, I suspect that even 20th level martial adepts with the right maneuvers, feats, and gear, might stand on even footing with a marilith.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-31-07, 11:58 PM	In any event, even with an elite array of starting ability scores (before racial modifiers), and PC wealth, there's no way that the standard marilith (CR 17) is possibly more than an ECL 20 character. 20th level CoDzillas would still mop the floor with one, and of course wizards can just gate in solars. Heck, I suspect that even 20th level martial adepts with the right maneuvers, feats, and gear, might stand on even footing with a marilith. Saying that a cleric is a match for a monster is a poor baseline for ECL. Also, CR and ECL are very different. CR measures the creature's impact on the party as an opponent in a single encounter. ECL measures the creature's impact on the party as a contributing member through an entire session, typically four encounters with some puzzles and traps.
StruckingFuggle 04-01-07, 12:13 AM	A Maralith Warblade? Yeah, that would be pretty sick. I would imagine probably a swordsage, actually. I mean, huge initiator level from it's hit dice already, and really good BAB should mitigate the 3/4 progression, and ... well, obviously, at that level, a level of Warblade for Iron Heart Surge, and then Swordsage, maybe with a detour into dervish. She has six hands ... a build that focuses on single attacks seems inoptimal. Which is why, maybe, go for Tiger Claw, or something. Or just Dervish ... Maybe grab Shadow Blade and three levels of Swashbuckler, 'cause bonus damage on that many attacks will add up... OR, Conversely, a level of monk, to get full str to offhand (I forgot, does OTWF let you do that?) ... I'd place the Marlilth at a whoppping ECL of 28th level, and I still think I'm being rather generous there. But how would one justify a marlilth adventurer, assuming a GM would ever let you play one? Three Words: Blood War Campaign. :D
tridiak 04-01-07, 12:51 AM	Get the DM to assign it an arbitary ECL modifer and change it as you go along until it seems "fair"
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 07:03 AM	She has six hands ... a build that focuses on single attacks seems inoptimal. Which is why, maybe, go for Tiger Claw, or something. Or just Dervish ... Maybe grab Shadow Blade and three levels of Swashbuckler, 'cause bonus damage on that many attacks will add up... OR, Conversely, a level of monk, to get full str to offhand (I forgot, does OTWF let you do that?) ... Well, a Marilith with 6 scimitars and 1 Tiger Claw stance (Blood in the water) can already get pretty slick. From then on, dervish can also be very nice. Also, while monks get full str to their attacks, this does not afaik include the situation when they get extra attacks from using TWF. If a monk makes more attacks, then s/he does have a lower str. bonus for the off hand. I think it was in a CustServ answer. But how you'll get a demon even close to a lawful-only class I have no idea ;) Swashbuckler can be nice, especially if you go into dervish later on. "My name is Gxdttffawqliq. You banished my father. Prepare to die!" Although any demon that says its true name like that doesn't deserve to have an intelligence bonus to add to anything, I must say. Three Words: Blood War Campaign. :D Ayup, that's where it's at... but roleplaying an outsider can be a vicious dog of a female persuasion.
Grizzled Gryphon 04-01-07, 10:43 AM	Saying that a cleric is a match for a monster is a poor baseline for ECL. Also, CR and ECL are very different. CR measures the creature's impact on the party as an opponent in a single encounter. ECL measures the creature's impact on the party as a contributing member through an entire session, typically four encounters with some puzzles and traps. I find it humorous that you don't mention any of the other comparisons he makes, only the one about the cleric. So, by NOT addressing the other classes he mentioned, we areto assume that those are right?
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-01-07, 11:19 AM	I find it humorous that you don't mention any of the other comparisons he makes, only the one about the cleric. So, by NOT addressing the other classes he mentioned, we areto assume that those are right? I've already said I'm not going to attempt to pin an epic LA on this monster. I only call 'em when I see 'em. :embarrass
StruckingFuggle 04-01-07, 01:36 PM	Well, a Marilith with 6 scimitars and 1 Tiger Claw stance (Blood in the water) can already get pretty slick. From then on, dervish can also be very nice. Also, while monks get full str to their attacks, this does not afaik include the situation when they get extra attacks from using TWF. If a monk makes more attacks, then s/he does have a lower str. bonus for the off hand. I think it was in a CustServ answer. But how you'll get a demon even close to a lawful-only class I have no idea ;) Swashbuckler can be nice, especially if you go into dervish later on. A couple replies: a: A Marlith with multiweapon fighting and Blood in the Water? Meep. Or, probably grab two or three levels of swordsage - Blood in the Water, Girallion Windmill Rip (also nasty), and the shadow-port abilities for quick battlefield movement ... and then I dunno where to go. Dervish, yeah? Man. Nasty. b: Huh, I didn't know TWF worked like that with monks. Blast c: Dangit! You're right. For some reason I keep thinking Marlith are devils, not demons. Thanks. :P
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 03:51 PM	Hehe, just make sure it doesn't get near the Dragon Mag's chaos monk - those berks have one heck of a flurry. Anyway, if the marilith is going to go crazy with scimitars, I wonder if the Weapon master won't be quite useful. Even more and better criticals, hmm... although, to be honest, it's good to have a weapon or two for tripping.
Grizzled Gryphon 04-02-07, 08:55 AM	Why would a Maralith need a weapon for tripping? Can't they use there tail? It would make sense. Tail sweep, or something.
The_Shaman 04-02-07, 10:58 AM	I'm not sure... with the right weapon, all it takes is a swift swipe. Their tails are much bigger (and afaik they can trip with them), so it might be slower. Besides, you can try to trip several times :D . I think it's quite worth it for the -4 to AC and the AoOs that come with being tripped and going back up.
Grizzled Gryphon 04-02-07, 11:01 AM	So, have a maralith with improved trip, and 3 spiked chains, then? Then she can go and show a Chain Devil how it is REALLY done. :P
The_Shaman 04-02-07, 11:02 AM	As long as you don't meet a chain devil, sure... But animate chains can be a dog. IMO scimitars are a classic (just imagine what 1 feat - improved critical - does for you), but to each his own. Besides, let's face it, 6 arms, good strength and good BAB make devastating critical an appealing target :D .
Witch 04-02-07, 11:16 AM	Marilith? My guesstimate is about ECL 25. Possibly more. Anything less, and you're forgetting about the fact that it gets PC wealth.
Grizzled Gryphon 04-02-07, 12:00 PM	The Shaman, I was joking. Hmm, yeah the scimitar is good. Add on levels of Tempest for some real fun.
The_Shaman 04-02-07, 12:41 PM	Joking or not, it is a dangerous idea, especially if you treat the chain as a double weapon as, iirc, OA does.
StruckingFuggle 04-02-07, 02:14 PM	As long as you don't meet a chain devil, sure... But animate chains can be a dog. IMO scimitars are a classic (just imagine what 1 feat - improved critical - does for you), but to each his own. Besides, let's face it, 6 arms, good strength and good BAB make devastating critical an appealing target :D . Four words: Blood In The Water. Combine with Perfect Multiweapon Fighting and Improved Critical, and that's, what? 4 attacks with her main hand, and 4 attacks with each of her five off-hands for 20 attacks a round, with a an 15-20 crit on each attack? Hello, huge sums of attack and damage bonuses. :D
Kresalak 04-02-07, 02:17 PM	Marilith? My guesstimate is about ECL 25. Possibly more. Anything less, and you're forgetting about the fact that it gets PC wealth. PC wealth is worth 1 CR.
Argaud 04-02-07, 03:11 PM	PC wealth is worth 1 CR. Where is this stated in the rulebooks?
Witch 04-02-07, 03:45 PM	PC wealth is worth 1 CR. That's plain bull. You should go have a look at what epic PC wealth gives you (and this is an epic character we're talking about). If you still think we're dealing with a measly +1 CR (which doesn't even matter, as we're talking about ECL), you need to have your eyes checked.
Grizzled Gryphon 04-02-07, 03:46 PM	PC wealth is worth 1 CR. Per character level, maybe?
StruckingFuggle 04-02-07, 04:21 PM	PC wealth is worth 1 CR. I think what Witch was referring to is how "you" forget that as a PC, a Marlith gets PC wealth. Since that's what this whole thread is about. Marlith PCs.
Kobold_Avenger 04-02-07, 04:29 PM	I wouldn't give her a greater starting ECL then 32. other wise she simply wont have the health to stand up to the foes she will face at that level.
Kresalak 04-02-07, 05:07 PM	That's plain bull. You should go have a look at what epic PC wealth gives you (and this is an epic character we're talking about). If you still think we're dealing with a measly +1 CR (which doesn't even matter, as we're talking about ECL), you need to have your eyes checked. Epic doesn't work, so money granted in epic levels doesn't matter. I have a question. Are you saying that a 17th level Cleric (CR 17) deserves a level adjustment because of PC wealth? Because a Marilith is supposed to be equal to a 17th level Cleric with NPC wealth.
Witch 04-02-07, 05:27 PM	Epic doesn't work, so money granted in epic levels doesn't matter. Prove it. Both of it. I keep seeing these statements from people who don't even have a clue about Epic. If Epic doesn't work, why are you even bothering with a discussion that is solely the domain of Epic play? I have a question. Are you saying that a 17th level Cleric (CR 17) deserves a level adjustment because of PC wealth? A 17th level cleric is not CR 17, whatever the book says.
Kresalak 04-02-07, 06:31 PM	Prove it. Both of it. I keep seeing these statements from people who don't even have a clue about Epic. If Epic doesn't work, why are you even bothering with a discussion that is solely the domain of Epic play? http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=109 You can search for more discussions on the subject there. Buy beyond that, we have the fact that the only viable build is Druid 21 or Cleric 21, because at that point you get Epic Spellcasting and the Life seed and the game dies. Or there's the CR 30 Elder Titan that fights better than any melee guy could ever hope to fight while also having Epic spells and casting as a 29th level Cleric. A 17th level cleric is not CR 17, whatever the book says. This is incredibly ironic considering your above statement.
Witch 04-02-07, 06:36 PM	Buy beyond that, we have the fact that the only viable build is Druid 21 or Cleric 21, because at that point you get Epic Spellcasting and the Life seed and the game dies. C'mon. Prove it. Or there's the CR 30 Elder Titan that fights better than any melee guy could ever hope to fight while also having Epic spells and casting as a 29th level Cleric. So? It might be a bit low of a CR, yes. Does a mis-CR'd monster mean the entire system is broken? This is incredibly ironic considering your above statement. What about it?
Eatable_Dice 04-02-07, 06:42 PM	Well, according to the system I use, its ECL is 22. http://csserver.evansville.edu/~jc84/DD3/Monster_ECL.htm Throw in PC wealth and you got a nice melee char.
Kresalak 04-02-07, 06:56 PM	C'mon. Prove it. Here. (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=58) So? It might be a bit low of a CR, yes. Does a mis-CR'd monster mean the entire system is broken? No, it's the fact that it has 70 hit dice. Epic monsters utterly outclass epic warriors at everything without even trying, and get to cast spells on top of that. It's the same problem that exists at level 8 or so, only a thousand times worse. What about it? You require proof that Epic is broken, and yet you simply state that a level 17 Cleric isn't CR 17 even though the Core rules define it as such.
Witch 04-02-07, 07:02 PM	C'mon. Prove it. Here. (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=58) What does that prove? You just deny access to broken epic spells. You require proof that Epic is broken, and yet you simply state that a level 17 Cleric isn't CR 17 even though the Core rules define it as such. Level 17 isn't epic, my dear.
Kresalak 04-02-07, 08:33 PM	What does that prove? You just deny access to broken epic spells. It's the entire system that's broken. And they spend 50 pages-1/6 of the entire book-on the rules for them. Level 17 isn't epic, my dear. I didn't say it was. I was responding to what you said, which is, and I quote, "A 17th level cleric is not CR 17, whatever the book says." And please don't act condescending towards me.
Witch 04-03-07, 06:09 AM	I didn't say it was. I was responding to what you said, which is, and I quote, "A 17th level cleric is not CR 17, whatever the book says." You disagree? Shall we compare the challenge of a 17th level cleric and a CR 17 monster? It's the entire system that's broken. And they spend 50 pages-1/6 of the entire book-on the rules for them. What's broken about the spells they included themselves, for one?
northern_bear 04-03-07, 08:02 AM	When you want to figure out a creature's challenge rating, you have to figure out how effective it is in ONE SINGLE COMBAT. That's because a party is usually only going to encounter a monster once, and will then kill it. When you want to figure out a creature's ECL, you need to look at how effective it is going to be IN THE LONG RUN. Encounter after encounter, day after day. What is the characters ability to contribute to the efectiveness of THE PARTY, in the long run. Yes a high level spell caster might be able to mop the floor with a Marilith in one on one combat. And a Marilith will get killed in one on combat against some CR 25 monster. But in the long run, the Marilith makes a huge contribution to the effectivenss of its party. Large Int bonus and 8 skill points per level means it has a similar number of skill points to a rogue 8 to 10 levels higher than it is. Good BAB progression and huge str bonus give it a modified attack roll similar to a fighter 9 levels higher (not considering the fighter's feats). Good Save Progression, high save ability modifiers, and spell resistance give it resistance to magic that is better than characters many levels higher. Some posters have claimed that SR 25 is useless at high levels. It isn't. The Marilith still has a 25% chance to ignore spells from a 20th level caster. In the long run, 25% chance will be a huge advantage. Damage reduction 10 /good and iron might as well be damage reduction 10/- for all intents & purposes. How many creatures walk around with good iron weapons all the time? This DR may not be great, but it is at least as good, or better, than what most character have by level 20 to 25. It won't help much against the oponent that does 100 damage per hit. But it will be nice against the oponent who does 15 damage per hit and hits 10 times per round. Blade Barrier at will can dish out decent damage at medium range, an unlimited number of times. And it lets the entire party (not just the Marilith) control the field of battle. True seeing & detect invisibility means the entire party never has to worry about invisble opponents or illusions ever again. Telepathy means the whole party can comunicate silently whenever they want. Probably the greates ability of all, is teleport at will. Also, you have to assume that the PC Marilith makes better build decisions than the one in the monstrous manual, and that he has better equipment. He will almost surely take improved multiweapon fighting and greater multiweapon fighting. So at 16th level he will have 19 weapon attacks per round. Once he can take epic feats, he takes Superior multiweapon fighting and has 24 weapon attacks per round. 6 of them are at full BAB. Considering his good BAB, high strength, that adds up to a ton of damage output per round, with a good chance to hit. And don't forget that unlike the shape changing mage, or the warrior with the tons of magic equipment, most of the Marilith's best abilites are non-magical. The character can cast anti-magic shell from a scroll or ring of spell storing, and then run over to the mage, warrior or whatever and kick the hell out of it. The tactic may not work all the time, but it will work often enough that the Marilith can single handedly dispose of many high level enoucounters that a typical party may face. In short, the Marilith may not be that deadly one on one against a specialised warrior or spell casting type, but in the long run it makes an asolutely huge contribution to the effectiveness of the party. I'd say starting ECL should be in the mid 20s.
northern_bear 04-03-07, 08:08 AM	I agree that the rules for setting CR of NPCs it totally out of balance. No way should the CR of spell casters be even close to the CR of warrior types. A 15th level fighter, Barbarian, monk, or whatever has absolutely zero chance whatsoever of wiping out a party of 4 15th level characters. An initiative win by a 15th level wizard, and there is a reasonable chance that an entire party of 15th level characters could be wiped out. DMs need to adjust CRs for NPCs for what the core books explain. But this doesn't change the issues affecting ECL. To calculate a Marilith's ECL (or anyone's ECL), you need to look at what they can contribute to the party in the long run. Not just how likely they are to prevail in a single combat by themselves.
StarFyre 04-03-07, 08:19 AM	I am a planescape and 2E styled cosmology/universe/multiverse of D&D monkey compared to the newer basis for the multiverse. As such, if I ever get to use a marilith against myplayers, I will make sure they are higher level than the CR indicates but soup up the marilith a bit based on Blood War boxed set. It said 'rumours' of some mariliths being able to cast multiple spells at once (ie. 1 mouth = 1 spell with somatic, and verbal components..then using 4 arms left over, 2 spells with only somatic...or 3 spells with somatic/material, and 1 with verbal only, etc). I also don't agree with the 'gate' restriction in 3.XE...makes no sense for an army (tanar'ri) that win via attrition (gated creatures can't summon again for an hour)...unlike 2E so I would use that system instead :) Sanjay
Argaud 04-03-07, 10:58 AM	I agree that the rules for setting CR of NPCs it totally out of balance. No way should the CR of spell casters be even close to the CR of warrior types. A 15th level fighter, Barbarian, monk, or whatever has absolutely zero chance whatsoever of wiping out a party of 4 15th level characters. An initiative win by a 15th level wizard, and there is a reasonable chance that an entire party of 15th level characters could be wiped out. DMs need to adjust CRs for NPCs for what the core books explain. Actually the NPC casters are pretty crappy too, I find hard to believe that the poorly equiped and built caster we can see in the DMG can become a serious threat for a competent party at level 15. Of course a devious DM can do much, much better, even with 1/3 of the gear resources of a PC. But by that principle the DM can also optimize a level 15 warrior to slaughter the whole party. Yes, it can be done. The DM knows the party, their gear and their tactics. It is not even hard.
northern_bear 04-03-07, 11:46 AM	Actually the NPC casters are pretty crappy too, I find hard to believe that the poorly equiped and built caster we can see in the DMG can become a serious threat for a competent party at level 15. Of course a devious DM can do much, much better, even with 1/3 of the gear resources of a PC. But by that principle the DM can also optimize a level 15 warrior to slaughter the whole party. Yes, it can be done. The DM knows the party, their gear and their tactics. It is not even hard. I don't have the DMG in front of me, so I can't comment on the specific NPC wizard in it. But I think it is much MUCH more likely that a NPC wizard could seriously threaten a party than a non spell casting NPC of the same level. Yes, the DM could specifically design a fighter type to take advantage of all the parties weaknesses, while making himself imune to the parties primary attack modes. But that would be some hard core optimization/metagaming/unfairness on the part of the DM. On the other hand, I don't think it takes a very highly specialized wizard to put the hurt on a group of PCs. Especially at higher levels. All it takes is a few good roles for damage, or a few missed saves, and a 15th level wizard can wipe out a party in one or two rounds. It is much less likely that a non spell caster can hurt the typical party unless they are extremely (and unfairly) specialised.
StruckingFuggle 04-03-07, 12:21 PM	What's broken about the spells they included themselves, for one? Well, the spells they included are like most of the things that come pregenerated in WotC books: sub-sub-optimal. But still, let me get this straight, re: epic spellcasting. "The system isn't broken, because you can always not use the system", is that accurate?
Witch 04-03-07, 01:33 PM	But still, let me get this straight, re: epic spellcasting. "The system isn't broken, because you can always not use the system", is that accurate? No, the system isn't broken, because DM approval of individual spells is an inherent part of the system, instead of outside the system.
StruckingFuggle 04-03-07, 04:47 PM	No, the system isn't broken, because DM approval of individual spells is an inherent part of the system, instead of outside the system. So, the system, itself, cannot mechanically support itself, it needs to be propped up entirely by DM fiat and things that work, otherwise entirely by the rules, need to be told "don't work" merely because they break balance, which the DM then needs to be able to accurately judge, too. That sure sounds like a broken - in the original sense of the word, broken in that it doesn't work right, not necessarily horribly overpoweringly - system devoid of any sort of internal consistancy or logic to me...
Witch 04-03-07, 04:53 PM	So, the system, itself, cannot mechanically support itself, it needs to be propped up entirely by DM fiat and things that work, otherwise entirely by the rules, need to be told "don't work" merely because they break balance, which the DM then needs to be able to accurately judge, too. That sure sounds like a broken - in the original sense of the word, broken in that it doesn't work right, not necessarily horribly overpoweringly - system devoid of any sort of internal consistancy or logic to me... What it does is appeal to common sense of what would work and what would not. What I have noticed at Epic Levels is that, though rules knowledge is incredibly important, that common sense takes a major role. This means that the system is quite useable, as long as people don't try to break it, outside the spirit of the system. It is in this the balance lies. You cannot have an incredibly generic system such as the Epic Spellcasting system without someone finding a way to break it. People have managed to break mundane spell combinations from the PHB already. This is not inherent to the system or the spells, it is inherent to the people who have the wish to break the system. The biggest difference, however, with regards to Epic Spells, is that with Epic Spells, DM approval is specifically part of the system. That is not the case with anything else, for which there is only Rule Zero, which stands above the system. In other words, the DM must not alter the game rules to prevent attempts to break the system. It can work inside game rules to do that. But yes, the DM needs to accurately judge things - but he needs to do that with a lot of things, at epic levels. It is why Epic requires a highly competent DM with regards to game mechanics.
StruckingFuggle 04-03-07, 07:39 PM	You cannot have an incredibly generic system such as the Epic Spellcasting system without someone finding a way to break it. You don't have to try. It's so made of glass that you need to drastically under-roleplay your spellcaster's primary casting stat to not break it. But yes, the DM needs to accurately judge things - but he needs to do that with a lot of things, at epic levels. It is why Epic requires a highly competent DM with regards to game mechanics. Which is why, IMO, they need new epic rules. ... and on the subject, rules to play a game that feels like level 8, but with all the nifty non-scaling class features of level 20. Though we're now quite derailed this thread, and so I think it's just: agree to disagree?
Witch 04-04-07, 06:17 AM	Sure, I'm tired of argueing about Epic play anyway, as it works fine when I play it :) I'm just annoyed at the fact that whenever Epic is brought up, people yell "BROKEN".
Grizzled Gryphon 04-04-07, 08:01 PM	Hmm, Derailed isn't even the word for it, but it was interesting reading none the less