Post/Author/DateTime	Post
toddfrazie 05-10-07, 04:11 AM	It would appear that monstrous races level adjustments are under valued. For example, the bugbear has a +1 level adjustment, but is in every way equal to a 3rd level fighter. The Ogre skull Crusher is only level adustment +3, but is far more powerful than a level 5 character. Are we missing something here?
bhu 05-10-07, 04:29 AM	It would appear that monstrous races level adjustments are under valued. For example, the bugbear has a +1 level adjustment, but is in every way equal to a 3rd level fighter. The Ogre skull Crusher is only level adustment +3, but is far more powerful than a level 5 character. Are we missing something here? A Bugbear has 3 Hit Dice and a +1 level adjustment, meaning without taking class levels it's a fourth level character. A Skullcrusher has 8 Hit Dice and a +3 level adjustment, meaning without taking class levels it's an 11th level character. You have no class abilities, fewer hit points (unless you have a really good Con), fewer skill points, fewer feats if the LA is high enough. In return you get big stats, and maybe you get thrown a few bones like a small natural armor bonus (which wont mean diddly if yor large cause you'll pay out the behind for armor and equipment), maybe large size, or something similar. There are level adjustment races that are worth it, but....
forsaken1111 05-10-07, 04:46 AM	It would appear that monstrous races level adjustments are under valued. For example, the bugbear has a +1 level adjustment, but is in every way equal to a 3rd level fighter. The Ogre skull Crusher is only level adustment +3, but is far more powerful than a level 5 character. Are we missing something here? Yeah, you're missing that racial hitdice stack with level adjustment to determine ECL (Effective character level). So if you're starting a 5th level game as a bugbear, you'd only have 1 character level. Level 1 bugbear fighter = level 5 human fighter
Neutronium_Dragon 05-10-07, 09:27 AM	The exception being that 1 HD creatures don't keep their racial hit dice. (The rules as written suggest that this only applies to humanoids in one part, then that this applies to all creatures in another part, so it's not clear what the intent was here.) However, there's an issue with most ECLs (ECL = racial hit dice + level adjustment) Thanks to deliberate overcosting (directly admitted to in a design interview), once the racial hit dice are factored in along with the LA the creature usually ends up being underpowered rather than overpowered, sometimes substantially so. Another problem is obsolescence - the relative cost of that ECL tends to get worse at higher levels because the racial benefits don't scale up but class features do, so a given ECL tends to hurt more and more as the levels go up. There're various proposed means for addressing both issues; in the latter case the LA buyoff system from Unearthed Arcana is a fairly common one.
YabaTheWhat 05-10-07, 01:56 PM	Another problem is obsolescence - the relative cost of that ECL tends to get worse at higher levels because the racial benefits don't scale up but class features do, so a given ECL tends to hurt more and more as the levels go up. That's a problem with multiclassing in general. Anyone planning to take levels in an exponential-growth class (including all pure spellcaster classes and some martial or hybrid classes) loses a lot by multiclassing with any class that doesn't have stacking caster levels. By the same token, races without stacking caster levels close to the race's ECL set the caster back on the power scale. Playing a weretiger wizard 6 (ECL 15) has about the same affect as playing a barbarian 9 / wizard 6.
toddfrazie 05-10-07, 03:02 PM	A Bugbear has 3 Hit Dice and a +1 level adjustment, meaning without taking class levels it's a fourth level character. A Skullcrusher has 8 Hit Dice and a +3 level adjustment, meaning without taking class levels it's an 11th level character. Thanks alot! I had hoped so. Another problem is obsolescence - the relative cost of that ECL tends to get worse at higher levels because the racial benefits don't scale up but class features do, so a given ECL tends to hurt more and more as the levels go up. There're various proposed means for addressing both issues; in the latter case the LA buyoff system from Unearthed Arcana is a fairly common one. I had realized this issue, assuming it to be a balancing factor before hand. With my new understanding of the situation, It would seem like a means of underpowering most races. Could you please describe the buyoff system. No Unearthed Arcana:confused:
Darth Sephiroth 05-10-07, 03:49 PM	LOOK HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)
toddfrazie 05-10-07, 09:16 PM	Thanks!
Qube 05-11-07, 06:04 AM	The exception being that 1 HD creatures don't keep their racial hit dice. (The rules as written suggest that this only applies to humanoids in one part, then that this applies to all creatures in another part, so it's not clear what the intent was here.) I think thats wrong: only monster races like goblin and such lose their racial hit die: if you look at the entry it says the stats are for a level 1 warrior so a given ECL tends to hurt more and more as the levels go up. depends of what race: things like DR, ability bonus, abilities not available to players. do not hurt much. example: the half-dragon fighter. OK, your breath weapon 'loses' strength, but your uber strength, 4 natural armor (that stacks with amulet of natural armor !) and fire immunity keep it very powerfull