Monster class basic Feral Gargun [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monster class basic Feral Gargun [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AtsuiShoto
12-17-07, 04:05 PM I had a bit of inspiration a while back as I was paging through Races of Stone. I was wondering what on earth was so good about a Feral Gargun that would make it worth the hitdice and level adjustment. I concluded: not much, but then I looked for a way to milk "Goliath Blood" for all it's worth. I happen to think that Mountain Rage is an excellent racial sub level for Goliaths, and the Feral Gargun qualifies by virtue of its Goliath Blood trait.

The very interesting revelation was that the Feral Gargun keeps its Goliath Blood trait even when using the monster class progression provided with its entry. So, you could have a +0 LA race that grows to Large size with all of the benefits, including a total of +8 Str. For kicks, you also get Cold Resistance 5 and that lovely feature Mountain Movement that makes adventuring, and Leap Attacking, so much easier to do.

Not a bad find, I'd say! See any holes in it?
AtsuiShoto
12-18-07, 09:47 AM Okay, I whipped up a grappler based on this idea. It appears downright playable, even in a somewhat restricted campaign, because I believe it doesn't stray outside of RoS, XPH, CW, and PH3.5 for its source material, except Practiced Manifester from CPsi and the druid variant from UA.
Feral Gargun Barbarian 1/ Psychic Warrior 5/ Shaper Druid 1/ Warshaper 4/ xxxx
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 8
28 point buy

BAB STR Grapple Size Damage PP Powers HP
1 Barbarian mountain rage; Extra Rage +1 +6 +11 L 1d8 P - - 14
2 Psiwarrior psionic talent " " +15 " " 3 1 20.5
3 Psiwarrior improved unarmed strike, Reckless Rage +2 +7 +17 " " 5 2 26
4 Psiwarrior [Con+1] +3 +8 +23 H 2d6 P 8 3 35.5
5 Psiwarrior +4 +10 +26 " " 11 3/1 42
6 Psiwarrior improved grapple, Practiced Manifester " " +32 " " 15 3/2 49.5
7 Shaper Druid predator form, spells(3/2) " +13 +39 G 4d6 PSB 16 " 57
8 Warshaper [Int+1] morphic immunities & weapons " " " " 6d6 PSB 17 " 64.5
9 Warshaper morphic body; ... +5 +15 +42 " " 18 " 72
10 Warshaper morphic reach +6 " +43 " " " " 79.5
11 Warshaper morphic healing +7 " +44 " " " " 87
12 ???

Powers:
2 Grip of Iron[1] immediate; +4 grapple, +2/5PP; 1rd/lvl
3 Empty Mind[1] immediate; +2 Will, +1/2PP; 1rd
4 Expansion[1] standard, swift=+6PP; +Size, +SizeX2=+6PP; 1rd/lvl, 1min/lvl=+2PP
5 Body Adjustment[2] 1rd; 1d12HP heal, +1d12/2PP
6 Animal Affinity[2] standard; +4 any stat, 1 more stat/5PP; 1min/lvl

Use armor spikes, or perhaps Scorpion's Claws [Sandstorm], until 7th level.
A garrote may be useful at any level. The numbers don't take into account magic items, because it's difficult to plan out what will be available when. Needless to say, the MiC has some excellent items to enhance grappling.
DS
12-18-07, 01:16 PM Unfortunately there is a flaw in your plan. Once you start a monster class you have to take all the levels before you can take another class.
darksamuari
12-18-07, 05:39 PM Unfortunately there is a flaw in your plan. Once you start a monster class you have to take all the levels before you can take another class.

Yep, there are exceptions like the ones on WOTC's website, but Feral Gargun ain't one of them.
Bahumut
12-18-07, 09:57 PM true, but even after the 4 monster levels, this is a solid build. especially if the DM allows LA buyoff.
AtsuiShoto
12-18-07, 10:05 PM Yes, Savage Species points out that taking monster class levels prohibits any multiclassing until all such levels have been taken. However, what if you don't actually take any feral gargun class levels, and just use the base feral gargun without any advancement?
Bahumut
12-18-07, 10:28 PM Yes, Savage Species points out that taking monster class levels prohibits any multiclassing until all such levels have been taken. However, what if you don't actually take any feral gargun class levels, and just use the base feral gargun without any advancement?

the "base" feral gargun is basically a super charged half-orc. i'ts a fun idea, but i wouldn't allow it because if i did, noone would ever play a half-orc. if the DM allows it, go for it =)
drunkman
12-19-07, 03:09 PM I have a problem with this. First off, you must go through the whole monster class before you can gain levels. It's just not worth it. The abitity scores, powerful build, and the natural armor is nice, but you'll end up as a level four with only 2d8 hit dice for basically a +6 overall ability score boost, +2 natural armor, powerful build, plus some other very marginal traits. If you think about it, you can get SO MUCH MORE out of just being a human and taking level four of almost any other class.

The goliath gives you only a +1 level adjustment for basically a +4 overall ability score boost and powerful build, I'd say that's an equivilent if not better of a human taking first level of almost any reasonable class. The goliath is so much more worth it.
darksamuari
12-19-07, 05:19 PM I have a problem with this. First off, you must go through the whole monster class before you can gain levels. It's just not worth it. The abitity scores, powerful build, and the natural armor is nice, but you'll end up as a level four with only 2d8 hit dice for basically a +6 overall ability score boost, +2 natural armor, powerful build, plus some other very marginal traits. If you think about it, you can get SO MUCH MORE out of just being a human and taking level four of almost any other class.

The goliath gives you only a +1 level adjustment for basically a +4 overall ability score boost and powerful build, I'd say that's an equivilent if not better of a human taking first level of almost any reasonable class. The goliath is so much more worth it.

This stems more from WOTC being bad at creating a subpar system.

I often dream of playing a Feral Gargun...
AtsuiShoto
12-19-07, 07:07 PM So the "base" is integral to the whole monster class? Drat. There's no denying the feral gargun is subpar, then.
drunkman
12-20-07, 01:33 AM This stems more from WOTC being bad at creating a subpar system.

I often dream of playing a Feral Gargun...

Talk about bad at creaing a subpar system. I'm new here but if you think about it, playing as a monster in most cases would be a disadvantage compared to being a normal humanoid character; a shame really, playing as monsters would have been a great concept. The issue is that the attractive monster-features count for level adjustment on its own and the monster HD counts for another "level adjustment", making the "ECL" while in normal classes, we have the class feaures and HD fused into one ECL point, for example, a barbarian's rage ability and its hit die would count as an ECL of 1 while the monster's hit die would count for one ECL point, and its improved grab ability would count for another (according to savage species), making an ECL 2 monster along with an ECL 1 humanoid barbarian with pretty much the same power, so most of the time, you want to pick a monster with not much (or no) hit dice, and a very low (or no) level adjustment, such as the goliath, but even then it would be hard in the beginning because let's say you like a monster with a +2 level adjustment and no hit die and lets say you want to be a rogue or some class with a low hit die. Well, you'll have the hit points of a level one rogue in proportion to the other creature's who'll have 2 more hit die than you on average; one shot and you're dead. In like level 20, two less hit die won't matter, but in the beginning, it will.

And that's why the feral gargun will suck, and you might as well go goliath. A shame really.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AtsuiShoto 12-17-07, 04:05 PM	I had a bit of inspiration a while back as I was paging through Races of Stone. I was wondering what on earth was so good about a Feral Gargun that would make it worth the hitdice and level adjustment. I concluded: not much, but then I looked for a way to milk "Goliath Blood" for all it's worth. I happen to think that Mountain Rage is an excellent racial sub level for Goliaths, and the Feral Gargun qualifies by virtue of its Goliath Blood trait. The very interesting revelation was that the Feral Gargun keeps its Goliath Blood trait even when using the monster class progression provided with its entry. So, you could have a +0 LA race that grows to Large size with all of the benefits, including a total of +8 Str. For kicks, you also get Cold Resistance 5 and that lovely feature Mountain Movement that makes adventuring, and Leap Attacking, so much easier to do. Not a bad find, I'd say! See any holes in it?
AtsuiShoto 12-18-07, 09:47 AM	Okay, I whipped up a grappler based on this idea. It appears downright playable, even in a somewhat restricted campaign, because I believe it doesn't stray outside of RoS, XPH, CW, and PH3.5 for its source material, except Practiced Manifester from CPsi and the druid variant from UA. Feral Gargun Barbarian 1/ Psychic Warrior 5/ Shaper Druid 1/ Warshaper 4/ xxxx Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 8 28 point buy BAB STR Grapple Size Damage PP Powers HP 1 Barbarian mountain rage; Extra Rage +1 +6 +11 L 1d8 P - - 14 2 Psiwarrior psionic talent " " +15 " " 3 1 20.5 3 Psiwarrior improved unarmed strike, Reckless Rage +2 +7 +17 " " 5 2 26 4 Psiwarrior [Con+1] +3 +8 +23 H 2d6 P 8 3 35.5 5 Psiwarrior +4 +10 +26 " " 11 3/1 42 6 Psiwarrior improved grapple, Practiced Manifester " " +32 " " 15 3/2 49.5 7 Shaper Druid predator form, spells(3/2) " +13 +39 G 4d6 PSB 16 " 57 8 Warshaper [Int+1] morphic immunities & weapons " " " " 6d6 PSB 17 " 64.5 9 Warshaper morphic body; ... +5 +15 +42 " " 18 " 72 10 Warshaper morphic reach +6 " +43 " " " " 79.5 11 Warshaper morphic healing +7 " +44 " " " " 87 12 ??? Powers: 2 Grip of Iron[1] immediate; +4 grapple, +2/5PP; 1rd/lvl 3 Empty Mind[1] immediate; +2 Will, +1/2PP; 1rd 4 Expansion[1] standard, swift=+6PP; +Size, +SizeX2=+6PP; 1rd/lvl, 1min/lvl=+2PP 5 Body Adjustment[2] 1rd; 1d12HP heal, +1d12/2PP 6 Animal Affinity[2] standard; +4 any stat, 1 more stat/5PP; 1min/lvl Use armor spikes, or perhaps Scorpion's Claws [Sandstorm], until 7th level. A garrote may be useful at any level. The numbers don't take into account magic items, because it's difficult to plan out what will be available when. Needless to say, the MiC has some excellent items to enhance grappling.
DS 12-18-07, 01:16 PM	Unfortunately there is a flaw in your plan. Once you start a monster class you have to take all the levels before you can take another class.
darksamuari 12-18-07, 05:39 PM	Unfortunately there is a flaw in your plan. Once you start a monster class you have to take all the levels before you can take another class. Yep, there are exceptions like the ones on WOTC's website, but Feral Gargun ain't one of them.
Bahumut 12-18-07, 09:57 PM	true, but even after the 4 monster levels, this is a solid build. especially if the DM allows LA buyoff.
AtsuiShoto 12-18-07, 10:05 PM	Yes, Savage Species points out that taking monster class levels prohibits any multiclassing until all such levels have been taken. However, what if you don't actually take any feral gargun class levels, and just use the base feral gargun without any advancement?
Bahumut 12-18-07, 10:28 PM	Yes, Savage Species points out that taking monster class levels prohibits any multiclassing until all such levels have been taken. However, what if you don't actually take any feral gargun class levels, and just use the base feral gargun without any advancement? the "base" feral gargun is basically a super charged half-orc. i'ts a fun idea, but i wouldn't allow it because if i did, noone would ever play a half-orc. if the DM allows it, go for it =)
drunkman 12-19-07, 03:09 PM	I have a problem with this. First off, you must go through the whole monster class before you can gain levels. It's just not worth it. The abitity scores, powerful build, and the natural armor is nice, but you'll end up as a level four with only 2d8 hit dice for basically a +6 overall ability score boost, +2 natural armor, powerful build, plus some other very marginal traits. If you think about it, you can get SO MUCH MORE out of just being a human and taking level four of almost any other class. The goliath gives you only a +1 level adjustment for basically a +4 overall ability score boost and powerful build, I'd say that's an equivilent if not better of a human taking first level of almost any reasonable class. The goliath is so much more worth it.
darksamuari 12-19-07, 05:19 PM	I have a problem with this. First off, you must go through the whole monster class before you can gain levels. It's just not worth it. The abitity scores, powerful build, and the natural armor is nice, but you'll end up as a level four with only 2d8 hit dice for basically a +6 overall ability score boost, +2 natural armor, powerful build, plus some other very marginal traits. If you think about it, you can get SO MUCH MORE out of just being a human and taking level four of almost any other class. The goliath gives you only a +1 level adjustment for basically a +4 overall ability score boost and powerful build, I'd say that's an equivilent if not better of a human taking first level of almost any reasonable class. The goliath is so much more worth it. This stems more from WOTC being bad at creating a subpar system. I often dream of playing a Feral Gargun...
AtsuiShoto 12-19-07, 07:07 PM	So the "base" is integral to the whole monster class? Drat. There's no denying the feral gargun is subpar, then.
drunkman 12-20-07, 01:33 AM	This stems more from WOTC being bad at creating a subpar system. I often dream of playing a Feral Gargun... Talk about bad at creaing a subpar system. I'm new here but if you think about it, playing as a monster in most cases would be a disadvantage compared to being a normal humanoid character; a shame really, playing as monsters would have been a great concept. The issue is that the attractive monster-features count for level adjustment on its own and the monster HD counts for another "level adjustment", making the "ECL" while in normal classes, we have the class feaures and HD fused into one ECL point, for example, a barbarian's rage ability and its hit die would count as an ECL of 1 while the monster's hit die would count for one ECL point, and its improved grab ability would count for another (according to savage species), making an ECL 2 monster along with an ECL 1 humanoid barbarian with pretty much the same power, so most of the time, you want to pick a monster with not much (or no) hit dice, and a very low (or no) level adjustment, such as the goliath, but even then it would be hard in the beginning because let's say you like a monster with a +2 level adjustment and no hit die and lets say you want to be a rogue or some class with a low hit die. Well, you'll have the hit points of a level one rogue in proportion to the other creature's who'll have 2 more hit die than you on average; one shot and you're dead. In like level 20, two less hit die won't matter, but in the beginning, it will. And that's why the feral gargun will suck, and you might as well go goliath. A shame really.