Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gharlane 04-19-07, 12:08 AM	Erinyes, Devil [Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful)] Level HD BAB Fort Ref Will Skill Points Special 1 1d8 1 2 2 2 (8 + Int) x4 Int +2, Str +2, +2 vs. poison, charm person 1/day, natural armor +3, feat 2 2d8 2 3 3 3 8 + Int Dex +2, Cha +2, entangle 1/day, dodge 3 2d8 2 3 3 3 - Con +2, Str +2, energy resistance 10 (cold, fire, acid), flight (good) 30 ft., DR 1/good 4 3d8 3 3 3 3 8 + Int Wis +2, Dex +2, see in darkness, minor image 1/day, natural armor +4, feat 5 3d8 3 3 3 3 - Con +2, spell resistance 11+HD, entangle 3/day, summon devil (2d4 lemures) 6 4d8 4 4 4 4 8 + Int Str +2, Cha +2, flight (good) 50 ft., +4 vs. poison, mobility, DR 2/good 7 4d8 4 4 4 4 - Con +2, fire resistance 20, unholy blight 1/day, charm monster 1/day, minor image 3/day, summon devil (2d6 lemures), natural armor +5 8 5d8 5 4 4 4 8 + Int Wis +2, Dex +2, teleport 1/day, entangle at will 9 5d8 5 4 4 4 - Con +2, Cha +2, True seeing 1/day, summon devil (2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils), DR 3/good 10 6d8 6 5 5 5 8 + Int Int +2, telepathy (100 ft.), unholy blight 3/day, charm monster 3/day, minor image at will, natural armor +6, feat 11 6d8 6 5 5 5 - Str +2, Wis +2, fire & poison immunity 12 7d8 7 5 5 5 8 + Int Dex +2, True seeing 3/day, greater teleport 1/day, DR 4/good 13 7d8 7 5 5 5 - Con +2, Cha +2, unholy blight at will, charm monster at will, natural armor +7 14 8d8 8 6 6 6 8 + Int Str +2, Wis +2, greater teleport 3/day 15 8d8 8 6 6 6 - Dex +2,True seeing at will, DR 5/good 16 9d8 9 6 6 6 8 + Int Cha +2, greater teleport at will, natural armor +8, feat Racial Traits: – Medium – Outsider (Evil, Lawful) – Darkvision 60 ft – Base land speed 30 ft. – +2 racial bonus on saves against poison – Automatic languages: Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal Class Skills: The erinyes’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (any two) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex). Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Erinyes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. An erinyes’s natural weapons, as well as any weapon it wields, are treated as evil- and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Erinyes are not proficient with any armor or shields. Feats: An erinyes receives one feat at 1st level and additional ones at 4th, 9th, and 14th. After 15th level, it gains feats normally according to its character level. It gains dodge as a bonus feat at 2nd level and mobility as a bonus feat at 6th. Natural Armor: An erinyes has +3 natural armor bonus at 1st level. This bonus increases by +1 every 3rd level thereafter, as shown in the Table. Erinyes powers: At 1st level, an erinyes can cast charm person as a spell-like ability once per day. At 4th level, it can cast minor image once per day. At 7th level, it can cast unholy blight once per day, charm monster replaces charm person and minor image three times per day. At 8th level, it can cast teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only) once per day. At 10th level, unholy blight and charm monster can be cast three times per day and minor image can be cast at will. At 12th level, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only) replaces teleport can be cast three times per day. At 13th level, unholy blight and charm monster can be cast at will. At 14th level, greater teleport can be cast three times per day. At 16th level, greater teleport can be cast at will. Its caster level for all spell-like abilities is equal to its class level (max 12) with save DCs of 10 + spell level + erinyes’s Cha modifier). Entangle (Ex): Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level equal to its class level plus 1, max 16). An erinyes can hurl its rope 30 feet with no range penalty. This ability may be use 1/day at 2nd level, 3/day at 5th, and at will at 8th. Flight (Su): At 3rd level, an erinyes can fly at speed of 30 ft. with good maneuverability. Its fly speed increases to 50 feet at 6th level. Damage Reduction (Su): At 3rd level, an erinyes gains damage reduction 1/good. This damage reduction increases by +1 every 3rd level thereafter, as shown in the Table. Energy Resistance (Ex): At 3rd level, an erinyes gains energy resistance 10 to cold, fire, and acid. It's fire resistance increases to 20 at 7th level. See in Darkness (Su): At 4th level, an erinyes can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell. Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day, at 5th level, an erinyes can summon 2d4 lemures with a 50% chance of success. The possible number of lemures summoned increases to 2d6 at 7th level and 2d10 at 9th. At 9th level, the erinyes can potentially summon 1d4 bearded devils in lieu of the lemures. This is the equivalent of a 3rd level spell. Spell Resistance (Su): At 5th level, an erinyes gains spell resistance equal to 11 plus its Hit Dice. Poison Resistance (Ex): At 6th level, an erinyes’s racial bonus on saves against poison increases to +4. True seeing (Su): An erinyes can use true seeing as a supernatural ability 1/day at 9th level and 3/day at 12th (caster level equal to it’s class level - max 14). At 15th, true seeing is continuously active. Telepathy (Su): At 10th level, an erinyes can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language. Immunities (Ex): At 11th level, an erinyes becomes immune to fire and poison.
runestar 04-19-07, 02:15 AM	So you have decided to make it ECL15 rather than ECL16?:)
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 02:40 AM	You do realize the problem people have with ECL is that having ECL =/= HD is a broken mechanic that leads to really bad interactions with the rules. I'm also deeply and truly confused. The poor Erinyes is already behind on HD in a bad way, and then you give it charm monster 1/day 2 levels after the wizard first got it? Are you serious? That's ~90% of your offense and the wizard has been doing it for 2 levels already. And you get it *1/day*!!! :rolleyes: This is even more unplayable than sucking down the +7 LA and starting one at 16th level. And that's really saying something. I'd say this is good at no level, and has level-appropriate abilities at no level. But I wouldn't be quite accurate - at 4th level it has 3 HD, +3 BAB, and See in Darkness, which probably makes it playable if the player can convince his cleric or wizard buddy to cast darkness. But that's the only level at which its any good whatsoever, and that's pretty marginal.
Gharlane 04-19-07, 01:08 PM	Sorry, I had thought the LA was +6 and had mistaken charm monster for a 5th level spell. Both errors have now been fixed. I'll address the other comments later when I have time.
Morwen 04-19-07, 06:00 PM	[Edit: nothing to say; move along]
Gharlane 04-19-07, 06:49 PM	This is even more unplayable than sucking down the +7 LA and starting one at 16th level. And that's really saying something. I'd say this is good at no level, and has level-appropriate abilities at no level. But I wouldn't be quite accurate - at 4th level it has 3 HD, +3 BAB, and See in Darkness, which probably makes it playable if the player can convince his cleric or wizard buddy to cast darkness. But that's the only level at which its any good whatsoever, and that's pretty marginal. The base class in our comparison of the Erinyes is the Ranger; they both had d8 HD, a good skill set and a ranged / mobility emphasis. Let's begin the acid test: HP: Assuming equal base Con scores between the 16 HD ranger and the the ECL 16 (9 HD) erinyes, with its +5 Con bonus/hd the erinyes will have (4.5+5)*9+3.5 = 89 hp, whereas the ranger will have 4.5*16+3.5 = 75.5 hp. In other words hp are not that different. Of course, assuming point buy, both the erinyes and the ranger have Con 14 and at ecl 16 have +6 con boosting items, so the erinyes will have (4.5+2+5+3)*9+3.5 = 134 hp and the ranger will have (4.5+2+3)*16+3.5 = 155.5. So, ultimately, the ranger is coming out a head, but at least erinyes's ECL is in the ball park. [If the erinyes LA was +5 which I think it should be for various reasons, the hp would just about match). DR: In the long term, the difference in hp will be mitigated by the erinyes's DR which will not be regularly bypassed by opponents. Attack bonus: With 9 outsider HD, the erinyes's BAB will only be +9, compared to the ecl 16 ranger's 16. However, the erinye's will have a +5 strength and +5 damage bonus beyond those of ranger, so you can consider the erinye's BAB to be 14 for all purposes but iterative attacks (which is a big deal, but the extra damage compensates somewhat). Saving throws: While the ecl 16 erinyes only has +6 to its base saving throws, it has +5 Fort, +5 to reflex, and +4 to Will over and beyond what another ecl pc wiould have. So, its base saves are really fort +11, reflex +11, will +10. The ecl 16 ranger will have base saves of fort +10, reflex +10, and will +5. In other words, it's saing throws will be quite what you'd expect for an ecl character. Spell Resistance: The erinyes's saving throws will be complemented by its spell resistance. Ultimately the SR won't be that good, at ECL 16 and beyond it will only resist an ecl casters spell 15% of the time; however, every little bit helps. Moreover, it will start of stronger, before the accumulaing LA levels bring it down. AC: The erinyes has +8 natural armor - it's ac will always be 8 points higher than another ecl character, Add on the +5 higher Dex bonus, and the erinyes's AC will be 13 points higher than another ecl character - it's not being hit. I'm sure your aware of this, but the lack of armor proficiency will not prevent the erinyes from wearing armor with an armor check penalty. Without doing anything fancy, it will be wearing a mithril shirt and bukler, which is compable to what other dextrous pcs will be wearing. In other words, the natural armor is all bonus AC. NB: I started off granted natural armor at class level 1 because some players may not realize that they can still wear armor without an armor check penalty. I'll admit that the chances of someone seeking to play a monster class erinyes who doesn;t know this is a bit remote. Skills: the erinyes's skill set is comparable to the rangers, and it will know more skills given it's higher skill points per HD and +2 INT bonus beyond that of the ranger. The difference in HD will hurt, but the +5 ability bonuses will nicely close the gap. Now that I've demonstrated the equivalence of attack, saving throws, and skill points (and the superiority of AC, plus DR and SR), let's move on to class abilites. The question before us is does the erinyes gain suffiient abilities to justify an ECL 16. Further, from the perspective on constructing a monster class, does it gain something useful at each class level. Level 1: It's gaining full bab, monk saves, rogue skill points, and a large natural armor bonus (it will be wearing leather also). the strength bonus is giving it some extra ability to attack and damage and the charm person 1/day is icing on the cake (a wizard is only casting 2 level spells at this level). It certainly doesn't need any help. Level 2: HD advance, it's getting dodge as a bonus feat (in the same manner as a ranger or monk) and its getting it's entangle trick 1/day which is enough for level 2. level 3: it's losing its first HD, but the hp loss is mitigated by the con bonus, and it's getting substantial energy resistance (for the level), DR that is unlikely to be bypassed at this point short of an align-weapon spell, and it's geting flight early. Level 4: A quiet level, to make up for the previous (appropriate) surfeit, it's still boosting abiliies scores, armor and nullifying magical darkness that's potentially becoming a problem. Level 5: another HD lost, but initially decent spell resistance is plently for one level, plus more entangling and a summoning ability (the amount of lemures being appropriate for the level). Level 6: faster flight, better DR, better poison saves, mobility as a bonus feat (a la monk or ranger), it's enough for a level. Level 7: It's getting new spell-likes at the same level that a primary caster would get them and can use them about as often as the caster would, plus other things improve. Level 8: it gets teleport 1 level early because its self only and it can use its entangling schtick as often as it likes. Add the ability bonuses and it's plenty. Level 9: ability bonuses, summoning stays level appropriate and DR improves, and gets a useful spell-like at the same time a caster would. level 10: useful telepathy, more frequent use of many spell-likes (similar to a primary caster) and improved natural armor - it's enough for a level. level 11: the immunities are plenty. A monk would just get poison immunity at this level. Level 12+: ability bonuses, more frequent spell-likes and improved DR and natural armor - getting better existing abilities isn't quite as gratifying as new stuff, but the levels doesn't exactly skimp. So, at every level, the erinyes is getting something useful and at a power level appropriate to other ecl characters. Is LA +7 too much? probably, but I definitely wouldn't give it less than LA +5. The erinyes is a great ranged mobility attacke with other stuff besides and would probably be fun to play within that role and comparable to what could be done through a a base class ranger or scout. I've never been particularly impressed with the argument that any abilites gained can be replicated through magic items. This is more or less true for any class and gaining the abilites via class levels means you'll have gold to spend on other nice stuff.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 07:58 PM	I consider the below methodology flawed. First, it doesn't consider what role in the party the erinyes is supposed to fill. It cannot replace the wizard or cleric, because its spellcasting is too limited to deal with CR-appropriate challenges at *any* level. It cannot replace the rogue - it does not get trapfinding or UMD, and deals far less damage than the rogue who will get a hefty damage boost from sneak attack (which will occur all the time starting around 10th level from a ring of blinking or similar). The only role the Erinyes could possibly fill is tank/melee fighter - a task which it is ill-suited to. Second, it doesn't consider the negative impact having a low number of HD entails. There are a number of effects that scale with the HD of effected creatures (sleep and similar, Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos, etc...) which are overly reamful to creatures with low numbers of HD. Third, the OP doesn't consider the impact of multi-classing or PrCs, which will almost certainly have occurred by 16th level. This is an option the Erinyes doesn't even have until it finishes its progression, meaning it is trivial for other classes to exceed its saving throws. Fourth, the OP neglects to examine the impact of being at least 2 feats and 16 levels of class abilities behind every other member of the party. The ranger gets either TWF/etc.. or Rapidfire/Manyshot for free, for instance, in addition to a host of class abilities. Its as if the OP considered the full Erinyes suite of abilities against a base class minus all the class features of that base class. The base class in our comparison of the Erinyes is the Ranger; they both had d8 HD, a good skill set and a ranged / mobility emphasis. Let's begin the acid test: HP: Assuming equal base Con scores between the 16 HD ranger and the the ECL 16 (9 HD) erinyes, with its +5 Con bonus/hd the erinyes will have (4.5+5)*9+3.5 = 89 hp, whereas the ranger will have 4.5*16+3.5 = 75.5 hp. In other words hp are not that different. Of course, assuming point buy, both the erinyes and the ranger have Con 14 and at ecl 16 have +6 con boosting items, so the erinyes will have (4.5+2+5+3)*9+3.5 = 134 hp and the ranger will have (4.5+2+3)*16+3.5 = 155.5. So, ultimately, the ranger is coming out a head, but at least erinyes's ECL is in the ball park. Except the erinyes DR is bypassed by anyone whose attacks are good, which is 1/4 of the listed non-dragon CR16 monsters in the MM. It is also ignored by elemental damage - and the Erinyes has no resistance to Electricity, Sonic, or Negative Energy damage. If you think demons should be able to pierce the DR of themselves, then 1/2 of the listed CR16 monsters pierce her DR trivially. Attack bonus: With 9 outsider HD, the erinyes's BAB will only be +9, compared to the ecl 16 ranger's 16. However, the erinye's will have a +5 strength and +5 damage bonus beyond those of ranger, so you can consider the erinye's BAB to be 14 for all purposes but iterative attacks (which is a big deal, but the extra damage compensates somewhat). Is behind 2 points, doesn't get an extra attack, and doesn't get the free Rapid Fire attack or TWF/ITWF/GTWF attacks the ranger is going to get. In addition, the ranger will get Favored Enemy bonuses some amount of the time, which more than makes up for the 5 damage bonus, and an extra attack is worth a lot more than 5 damage. The erinyes is so far behind on damage its laughable. Saving throws: While the ecl 16 erinyes only has +6 to its base saving throws, it has +5 Fort, +5 to reflex, and +4 to Will over and beyond what another ecl pc wiould have. So, its base saves are really fort +11, reflex +11, will +10. The ecl 16 ranger will have base saves of fort +10, reflex +10, and will +5. In other words, it's saing throws will be quite what you'd expect for an ecl character. Multi-class characters have better saves than this trivially. I've seen level 16 characters with ~+16 in all saves base without even trying very hard. Spell Resistance: The erinyes's saving throws will be complemented by its spell resistance. Ultimately the SR won't be that good, at ECL 16 and beyond it will only resist an ecl casters spell 15% of the time; however, every little bit helps. Moreover, it will start of stronger, before the accumulaing LA levels bring it down. The erinyes gets 11+HD SR. This means that its 14 at level 5, 15 at level 6, 16 at level 8, 17 at level 10, 18 at level 12, 19 at level 14, and 20 at level 16. The following (rough) table examines the value of this: Level SR %SR works % SR works if SpPen feat 5......14.........40%................... 20% 6......15.........40%................... 20% 8......16.........35%................... 15% 10.....17.........30%................... 10% 12.....18.........25%................... .5% 14.....19.........20%................... .0% 16.....20.........15%................... .0% AC: The erinyes has +8 natural armor - it's ac will always be 8 points higher than another ecl character, Add on the +5 higher Dex bonus, and the erinyes's AC will be 13 points higher than another ecl character - it's not being hit. I'm sure your aware of this, but the lack of armor proficiency will not prevent the erinyes from wearing armor with an armor check penalty. Without doing anything fancy, it will be wearing a mithril shirt and bukler, which is compable to what other dextrous pcs will be wearing. In other words, the natural armor is all bonus AC. NB: I started off granted natural armor at class level 1 because some players may not realize that they can still wear armor without an armor check penalty. I'll admit that the chances of someone seeking to play a monster class erinyes who doesn;t know this is a bit remote. Not true. The max dex of mithril chainmail is still +6, which means other characters can get exactly the same dex benefit while wearing mithril chainmail pretty trivially. A halfling rogue with starting int 20(18 base) only needs a +4 dex enhancement item to match the dex bonus. Further, [I]polymorph has been around for quite awhile by level 16, and PAO is available. Any rogue worth his salt is actually running around as a Kelvezu, which has Natural Armor. Getting natural armor isn't that hard at the levels we're talking about with a competent wizard - and PAO is permanent. Even a ranger might want to be a Kelvezu, he certainly doesn't want to be a humanoid at higher levels, and that'll give him +8d6 SA in addition to NA, a new dex modifier, and other benefits. Skills: the erinyes's skill set is comparable to the rangers, and it will know more skills given it's higher skill points per HD and +2 INT bonus beyond that of the ranger. The difference in HD will hurt, but the +5 ability bonuses will nicely close the gap. I agree. The erinyes has skills. The rogue is still better in general at the rogue skill set (having all of them in class, and most likely having focused his PB in the related attributes - something the Erinyes probably won't have done), which covers most of the party's skill needs right there. The rangers spot/listen and hide/ms are good enough, and that + survival (note the ranger has *Track* for free to make it useful) are most of the skills he cares about. Now that I've demonstrated the equivalence of attack, saving throws, and skill points (and the superiority of AC, plus DR and SR), let's move on to class abilites. I would hardly call that demonstrated. I grant it has better skills than the erinyes - it totally loses on DPS (damage per second) to the ranger, however. And the AC bonus is smaller than claimed to non-existent at high levels. I'm also going to assume it gets the Outsider type, and therefore Darkvision, Simple and Martial Weapon Proficiencies, and being a pain to resurrect as racial abilities. The question before us is does the erinyes gain suffiient abilities to justify an ECL 16. Further, from the perspective on constructing a monster class, does it gain something useful at each class level. Level 1: It's gaining full bab, monk saves, rogue skill points, and a large natural armor bonus (it will be wearing leather also). the strength bonus is giving it some extra ability to attack and damage and the charm person 1/day is icing on the cake (a wizard is only casting 2 level spells at this level). It certainly doesn't need any help. First, ignore the BAB, saves, skills, etc... those were already used to demonstrate parity above. So what does it get as "class features" at level 1? Int +2, Str +2, +2 vs. poison, charm person 1/day, natural armor +3. Now, at least one of the Int+2 and Str +2 could be seen as racial abilities, since just getting the outsider type is really unexciting in terms of available race options. (Compare to Dwarf for instance). And race is something all the other PCs are going to have. We can bundle +2 vs poison in there as well. That leaves us with Charm Person 1/day, NA +3, and lets say Str+2. The Ranger only gets Favored Enemy 1, Track, and Wild Empathy. He also buys a Chain Shirt (which the Erinyes can't match with Mithril Chain Shirt yet), giving him a higher AC. Honestly, advantage Ranger. (It should also be noted a grey elf wizard, who has the same int mod, gets 3 first level spells/day, 4 if he specializes). Level 2: HD advance, it's getting dodge as a bonus feat (in the same manner as a ranger or monk) and its getting it's entangle trick 1/day which is enough for level 2. Dodge is a really craptastic feat, so giving it as a bonus feat is the only reason the erinyes would ever take it. The 'entangle' trick is animate rope, another 1st level wizard spell. These barely qualify as class features. The ranger, otoh, gets his first combat style, which is either TWF or Rapid Fire, which is absolutely amazing. Advantage most definitely Ranger. level 3: it's losing its first HD, but the hp loss is mitigated by the con bonus, and it's getting substantial energy resistance (for the level), DR that is unlikely to be bypassed at this point short of an align-weapon spell, and it's geting flight early. Flight at level 3 is only mildly exciting - the wizard did just get alter self after all. (Which also lets the wizard grab higher NA than the erinyes at this point). Resistance 10 to 3 elements is pretty decent at this level - but everyone who knows what an erinyes is expects her to have that, so smart enemies aren't going to burn inappropriate spells on her. The +con gives her 2 hp, which is less than a HD would have given her (and thus the Ranger got more hp this level). DR 1/x is not very exciting, even at this level. Its mostly annoying from a bookkeeping perspective. The Ranger, otoh, got a HD (higher max ranks, more hp) and Endurance... ok, I'm going to have to give the Erinyes this one, but the Erinyes still hasn't caught up to the combat style boost. He does get a feat one level ahead though. Level 4: A quiet level, to make up for the previous (appropriate) surfeit, it's still boosting abiliies scores, armor and nullifying magical darkness that's potentially becoming a problem. See in darkness is amazing at this level. dex +2 and +1 NA aren't anything to write home about - the wizard still has you beat on NA. And you're a level behind the wizard for minor image, but its still a good ability. The Ranger gets an Animal Companion and a 1st level spell if he has at least a 12 wisdom. He also gets to increase a stat with a level pump. Close call. The Ranger is still far better overall here though (from the Combat Style). Level 5: another HD lost, but initially decent spell resistance is plently for one level, plus more entangling and a summoning ability (the amount of lemures being appropriate for the level). Gets SR - which would be level appropriate if the Erinyes had full HD (which it doesnt). Lemures are a CR 1 that you get 50% of the time (and a pretty crappy CR 1 at that)? The wizard summons better stuff with SMIII and doesn't have to worry about the summoning not happening, so this ability isn't even relevant. And more *1st level spell* SLA per day, whee. The Ranger gets his second favored enemy and a HD. Advantage almost certainly Ranger. Level 6: faster flight, better DR, better poison saves, mobility as a bonus feat (a la monk or ranger), it's enough for a level. A bad level, DR is still fairly meh as is the poison saves. Erinyes doesn't even get a level pump for 4HD because thats factored into its bonuses to stats already. Mobility is another crap feat. Flight is the only good news this level, and the Wizard has both alter self and fly available, which means flight for the whole party. Alternately, everyone else spent a pittance of gp on hippogriff mounts. The Ranger got his second combat style feat, another feat from HD, another 1st level spell/day, and a second attack from BAB. Ranger totally dominates this level. Level 7: It's getting new spell-likes at the same level that a primary caster would get them and can use them about as often as the caster would, plus other things improve. Unholy Blight is a non-ability. Seriously. Charm Monster is good, but the caster could be doing that 3 times per day, or have other good spell options. Your CL is what at this point? 4? Meaning your spells are easily dispelled, have a hard time dealing with SR, and so forth. A little more NA and stats. The Ranger grabbed woodland stride and a HD... ok, probably marginal advantage to the Erinyes here. Very marginal. His BAB is +7 to the Erinyes +3 at this point. Level 8: it gets teleport 1 level early because its self only and it can use its entangling schtick as often as it likes. Add the ability bonuses and it's plenty. A 1st level spell at-will? Oh no! Teleport self only at 8th level is decent. Some ability bonuses, but we've only got 5HD! The Ranger just nabbed his first 2nd level spell and swift tracker. Advantage Erinyes, but only because of Teleport. Level 9: ability bonuses, summoning stays level appropriate and DR improves, and gets a useful spell-like at the same time a caster would. 1d4 Bearded devils 50% of the time at level 9 is 'level appropriate'? I must be missing something. I'll take SMV any day. True Seeing is not all that and a bag of chips - its basically autofoil illusion, which is good sometimes but not earth-shattering. Ranger gets Evasion and a HD (including a feat). The Ranger is now up 2 chosen feats on the Erinyes. I have to give this level to the ranger. BAB +9 vs +5. level 10: useful telepathy, more frequent use of many spell-likes (similar to a primary caster) and improved natural armor - it's enough for a level. Telepathy is a flavor ability. Oh noes, talk to anything. A 1 level dip in mindbender can nab that for a wizard, no problem. To even compare its limited selection of spell-likes to what a caster is doing at 10th level is just crazy talk. Finally got a 6th HD and a feat from it. Ranger grabs a 3rd favored enemy and a second 2nd level spell. Probably marginally in the Erinyes favor as compared to a Ranger, but the Ranger is entirely specialized whereas the Erinyes is failing to compete with the Ranger on damage and the Wizard on spellcasting - its like the bard problem but far worse because at least the bard has 10HD. level 11: the immunities are plenty. A monk would just get poison immunity at this level. And a druid got poison immunity 2 levels ago. And a cleric has had effective poison immunity for 2-3 (from extended delay poison). The Ranger doesn't even care about your fire immunity because he has evasion, and typically takes no damage from most fire damage anyway. The Ranger just nabbed a 3rd BAB attack and his third combat style and his first 3rd level spell. He seriously wins this level, and is far ahead of the Erinyes at this point. Level 12+: ability bonuses, more frequent spell-likes and improved DR and natural armor - getting better existing abilities isn't quite as gratifying as new stuff, but the levels doesn't exactly skimp. More of old stuff isn't going to keep up with the other classes who are getting new things. Note the ranger almost certainly PrCs out this level, getting another +2 to the PrCs favored saves, and whatever abilities it grants him. Probable winner: Ranger, but its hard to talk about at this point since I don't know exactly what abilities we're talking about. So, at every level, the erinyes is getting something useful and at a power level appropriate to other ecl characters. Is LA +7 too much? probably, but I definitely wouldn't give it less than LA +5. The erinyes is a great ranged mobility attacke with other stuff besides and would probably be fun to play within that role and comparable to what could be done through a a base class ranger or scout. I've never been particularly impressed with the argument that any abilites gained can be replicated through magic items. This is more or less true for any class and gaining the abilites via class levels means you'll have gold to spend on other nice stuff. The Erinyes is a bad ranged attacker who is far behind on feats, HD, and BAB (attacks!), meaning she will be lacking critical abilities at every level. She gets a few useful spell-likes, but doesn't have the breadth of options that real spellcasters have and therefore can handle few situations. Furthermore, her caster level is abysmal at every level it matters. At many points she's getting more uses of abilities that *don't even matter* anymore, which is a non-ability. I can't think of any party that wouldn't rather have a Ranger than this Erinyes - and most would probably grab a druid to tank instead.
bobothechimp 04-19-07, 08:26 PM	Nicely done.
Captain_Kobold 04-19-07, 08:54 PM	Interesting line up Gharlane. I like the class progression you have got down there. Whilst there are a couple of flaws in Squirrelloid's analysis of it, I do have to agree with him on one thing however: A munchkin optimised group playing a game of pure combat power with very limited roleplaying or social interaction, in a game with no stabilising houserules whose DM has allowed abuses of the RAW, including the polymorph subschool, are likely to prefer to have full-level Ranger instead. Other groups may find it useful though.
Gharlane 04-20-07, 04:04 AM	Whilst there are a couple of flaws in Squirrelloid's analysis of it, I do have to agree with him on one thing however: A munchkin optimised group playing a game of pure combat power with very limited roleplaying or social interaction, in a game with no stabilising houserules whose DM has allowed abuses of the RAW, including the polymorph subschool, are likely to prefer to have full-level Ranger instead. Thank you Captain_Kobold. I couldn't have said it better myself. I may get around to writing a more detailed rebuttal, but you've definitely written the cliff's notes version.
Squirrelloid 04-20-07, 12:06 PM	Interesting line up Gharlane. I like the class progression you have got down there. Whilst there are a couple of flaws in Squirrelloid's analysis of it, I do have to agree with him on one thing however: A munchkin optimised group playing a game of pure combat power with very limited roleplaying or social interaction, in a game with no stabilising houserules whose DM has allowed abuses of the RAW, including the polymorph subschool, are likely to prefer to have full-level Ranger instead. Other groups may find it useful though. Because clearly assuming the rules of the game hold is a poor assumption... :rolleyes: Seriously, you just said "a gaming group that uses the published rules would prefer a full-level ranger instead". Also, what makes you think pure combat power was the only thing I was looking at? The ranger has 6+int skills/level, which is plenty of room for non-combat applications. (And has spells, which have non-combat applications). He also gets track (and will take survival), which allows for him to succeed at a lot of non-combat challenges. The party needs a face, probably a rogue or bard, who will have a decent-excellent charisma and maxed bluff/diplomacy/intimidate(?)/Sense Motive. Not every character needs to be able to be the party face. All characters do need to contribute to combat. Its a significant part of the game. And the erinyes 'class' above fails at most levels. I also further fail to see how the Ranger comparison I posted is at all munchkined, much less min/maxed, in the slightest. I just assumed he got his class abilities! An optimized party doesn't even take a Ranger. It goes Rog/Wiz/Clr/Dru for its 4 members and lets CoDzilla handle melee. And in that context the Erinyes looks *laughable* at 16th level. I used ranger because the OP compared it to ranger. And that's still a comparison it *loses* Or are you trying to say that anyone who wants to play a hot female outsider for roleplaying purposes should be substantially less powerful than other members of the party? How does that even begin to make sense?
catharz 04-20-07, 01:38 PM	As soon as you bring up Kelvezeu polymorphs as a point of balance, you're in Oz.
Argaud 04-20-07, 01:57 PM	As soon as you bring up polymorphs as a point of balance, you're in Oz. Fixed for you :) Polymorph: the only spell (so far) that WotC has admitted was a major blunder.
Squirrelloid 04-20-07, 02:27 PM	As soon as you bring up Kelvezeu polymorphs as a point of balance, you're in Oz. Except that didn't even come up in my level-by-level comparison. The Ranger beat the Erinyes *without* polymorph. And that's saying something. So ignore the line about polymorph, it doesn't even change my conclusion at all. A straight-up Ranger 16 beats the erinyes in usefulness hands-down, because it actually has a level-appropriate attack. And given that Ranger is in the lower-half of classes power-wise, that's saying something about how bad the Erinyes is. .... Polymorph: How many people *don't* play with polymorph? Seriously. Its a pretty standard transmutation spell, they even wrote a CM reserve feat that assumed you had it. They tell you to remove and then they *write feats for it*. Even if its not Kelvezu, it'll be something crazy (war troll, etc...), and it will happen. Getting +8 NA is *trivial* at 16th level, its not even funny. I don't think assuming polymorph is a problem - its a core rule. More games probably allow it than allow any non-core things. Many people are capable of recognizing its utility - it doesn't take a hardcore optimizer to decide that its either effective or cool (and it can certainly be both). Sure, they might choose something basic that's merely large with moderate NA and good strength. Its still a fact of playing at high levels that this kind of thing should be *expected*.
Mr.Waesel 04-20-07, 02:28 PM	Or are you trying to say that anyone who wants to play a hot female outsider for roleplaying purposes should be substantially less powerful than other members of the party? How does that even begin to make sense? Wanna bet he says 'yes'? ;) And then we'll have the Succubus thread again. Also, what's 'CoDzilla'?
NineInchNall 04-20-07, 03:08 PM	(Cleric or Druid)-zilla.
Kresalak 04-20-07, 03:12 PM	Wanna bet he says 'yes'? ;) And then we'll have the Succubus thread again. The answer is, of course, "yes", because hot girls picked on D&D players in high school and so they need their revenge.
Fwib 04-20-07, 05:17 PM	Also, what's 'CoDzilla'?In a thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-465177) about people hating psionics or something, RadicalTaoist said: It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics (or Warlocks, or Fochlucan Lyrists, or anything balanced that's come out of splatbooks that aren't munchfests like Complete Divine) isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions.This was enough to spawn the name CoDzilla!
Mr.Waesel 04-20-07, 05:26 PM	Thanks to both of you. I thought it'd be something like that :)
Count Arioch the 28th 04-20-07, 06:59 PM	A munchkin optimised group playing a game of pure combat power with very limited roleplaying or social interaction, in a game with no stabilising houserules whose DM has allowed abuses of the RAW, including the polymorph subschool, are likely to prefer to have full-level Ranger instead.. Translation: "Everyone that disagrees with me is a doody-head." Seriously, Captain Kobold. Throwing around insults is not the way to have a debate.
Gharlane 04-20-07, 09:06 PM	I consider the below methodology flawed. First, it doesn't consider what role in the party the erinyes is supposed to fill. It cannot replace the wizard or cleric, because its spellcasting is too limited to deal with CR-appropriate challenges at *any* level. It cannot replace the rogue - it does not get trapfinding or UMD, and deals far less damage than the rogue who will get a hefty damage boost from sneak attack (which will occur all the time starting around 10th level from a ring of blinking or similar). The only role the Erinyes could possibly fill is tank/melee fighter - a task which it is ill-suited to. It will be assuming the ranger / ranged attacker / lightly armored mobility fighter role. Second, it doesn't consider the negative impact having a low number of HD entails. There are a number of effects that scale with the HD of effected creatures (sleep and similar, Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos, etc...) which are overly reamful to creatures with low numbers of HD. This is an inherent problem with LA, but by the time the discrepancy becomes large, it will only be the holy word spell and its variations that will have an impact (and whatever other no save, HD but not hp dependent high level spells there are out there). Third, the OP doesn't consider the impact of multi-classing or PrCs, which will almost certainly have occurred by 16th level. This is an option the Erinyes doesn't even have until it finishes its progression, meaning it is trivial for other classes to exceed its saving throws. We undoubtedly have different perceptions about the ubiquity of multi-classing. Multi-classing really isn't something you can consider when determing a creatures LA or writing a monster class. That multi-classed characters will have better saving throws (and worse BAB) than single-classed characters isn't something that directly pertains to the analysis. As an aside, in my gaming club's campaigns add all the class levels with the good saves to find what the save would be for a single-classed character and all the class levels with the bad saves and then add the two. So a wizard 2 / sorcerer 1 would have fort +1, ref +1, will +3 instead of fort +0, ref +0, will +5. This prevents absurd discrepencies in saves. We also use fractional BAB. I can't comment on how common these variants are. Fourth, the OP neglects to examine the impact of being at least 2 feats and 16 levels of class abilities behind every other member of the party. The ranger gets either TWF/etc.. or Rapidfire/Manyshot for free, for instance, in addition to a host of class abilities. Its as if the OP considered the full Erinyes suite of abilities against a base class minus all the class features of that base class. Add the bonus feats and the Erinyes is not any feats behind. As to class ability comparisons, keep reading. Originally Posted by Gharlane The base class in our comparison of the Erinyes is the Ranger; they both had d8 HD, a good skill set and a ranged / mobility emphasis. Let's begin the acid test: HP: Assuming equal base Con scores between the 16 HD ranger and the the ECL 16 (9 HD) erinyes, with its +5 Con bonus/hd the erinyes will have (4.5+5)*9+3.5 = 89 hp, whereas the ranger will have 4.5*16+3.5 = 75.5 hp. In other words hp are not that different. Of course, assuming point buy, both the erinyes and the ranger have Con 14 and at ecl 16 have +6 con boosting items, so the erinyes will have (4.5+2+5+3)*9+3.5 = 134 hp and the ranger will have (4.5+2+3)*16+3.5 = 155.5. So, ultimately, the ranger is coming out a head, but at least erinyes's ECL is in the ball park. [If the erinyes LA was +5 which I think it should be for various reasons, the hp would just about match). DR: In the long term, the difference in hp will be mitigated by the erinyes's DR which will not be regularly bypassed by opponents. Except the erinyes DR is bypassed by anyone whose attacks are good, which is 1/4 of the listed non-dragon CR16 monsters in the MM. It is also ignored by elemental damage - and the Erinyes has no resistance to Electricity, Sonic, or Negative Energy damage. If you think demons should be able to pierce the DR of themselves, then 1/2 of the listed CR16 monsters pierce her DR trivially. That's still 3/4 of the CR 16 monsters that won't bypass the DR. Moreover, the whole point of a monster class is to use the monster at all levels of play. That DR is not being bypassed a lot at lower levels. The fact that the DR is ignored by elemental damage and the Erinyes has no resistance to Electricity, Sonic, or Negative Energy damage, is a moot point - other classes don't get any DR or energy resistance. Okay, the barbarian gets DR and the the warlock gets DR and energy resistnace, but the energy resistance and DR are still useful class abilities for the erinyess Attack bonus: With 9 outsider HD, the erinyes's BAB will only be +9, compared to the ecl 16 ranger's 16. However, the erinyes will have a +5 strength and +5 damage bonus beyond those of ranger, so you can consider the erinye's BAB to be 14 for all purposes but iterative attacks (which is a big deal, but the extra damage compensates somewhat). Is behind 2 points, doesn't get an extra attack, and doesn't get the free Rapid Fire attack or TWF/ITWF/GTWF attacks the ranger is going to get. In addition, the ranger will get Favored Enemy bonuses some amount of the time, which more than makes up for the 5 damage bonus, and an extra attack is worth a lot more than 5 damage. The erinyes is so far behind on damage its laughable. The erinyes will be using shot-on-the-run or flyby attack, so the iterative attacks won't come up anyway - the erinyes is designed to be a skirmisher. Also the erinyes can certainly take the TWF tree as feats instead of class abilites like the ranger. The 16th level ranger's favored enemy bonus will apply up to +8 to one creature type; when the ranger is fighting a non-favored enemy the bonus damage won't apply. The erinyes' +5 will apply to everyone. Saving throws: While the ecl 16 erinyes only has +6 to its base saving throws, it has +5 Fort, +5 to reflex, and +4 to Will over and beyond what another ecl pc wiould have. So, its base saves are really fort +11, reflex +11, will +10. The ecl 16 ranger will have base saves of fort +10, reflex +10, and will +5. In other words, it's saing throws will be quite what you'd expect for an ecl character. Multi-class characters have better saves than this trivially. I've seen level 16 characters with ~+16 in all saves base without even trying very hard. I've addressed multi-classing above. Spell Resistance: The erinyes's saving throws will be complemented by its spell resistance. Ultimately the SR won't be that good, at ECL 16 and beyond it will only resist an ecl casters spell 15% of the time; however, every little bit helps. Moreover, it will start of stronger, before the accumulaing LA levels bring it down. The erinyes gets 11+HD SR. This means that its 14 at level 5, 15 at level 6, 16 at level 8, 17 at level 10, 18 at level 12, 19 at level 14, and 20 at level 16. The following (rough) table examines the value of this: Level SR %SR works % SR works if SpPen feat 5......14.........40%................... 20% 6......15.........40%................... 20% 8......16.........35%................... 15% 10.....17.........30%................... 10% 12.....18.........25%................... .5% 14.....19.........20%................... .0% 16.....20.........15%................... .0% The spell resistance becomes less useful at higher levels, it's true, but it will still be helpful for much of the erinyes' adventuring career. Moreover, not every spellcaster will have the spell penetration feats andmore common opponetns with spell-like abiliies certainly won't. AC: The erinyes has +8 natural armor - it's ac will always be 8 points higher than another ecl character, Add on the +5 higher Dex bonus, and the erinyes's AC will be 13 points higher than another ecl character - it's not being hit. I'm sure your aware of this, but the lack of armor proficiency will not prevent the erinyes from wearing armor with an armor check penalty. Without doing anything fancy, it will be wearing a mithril shirt and bukler, which is compable to what other dexterous pcs will be wearing. In other words, the natural armor is all bonus AC. NB: I started off granting natural armor at class level 1 because some players may not realize that they can still wear armor without an armor check penalty. I'll admit that the chances of someone seeking to play a monster class erinyes who doesn;t know this is a bit remote. Not true. The max dex of mithril chainmail is still +6, which means other characters can get exactly the same dex benefit while wearing mithril chainmail pretty trivially. A halfling rogue with starting dex 20(18 base) only needs a +4 dex enhancement item to match the dex bonus. Actually, the max dex of mithril chainmail is +5. Moreover, a mithril breastplate would be striclty better. Still, your halfling rogue may not want to wear either due to the armor check penalty. That's all besides the point. The combined armor bonus / dex bonus will cap at +10 for the erinyes and the non-erinyes light armored character (with special materials, semi-obsure sourcebooks, etc., it might go a little higher). The natural armor +8 will still remain in full. +8 to AC beyond what anyone else can get will ensure that the erinyes it getting hit much less often than a comparable character. It's is a pretty significant class ability. Further, polymorph has been around for quite awhile by level 16, and PAO is available. Any rogue worth his salt is actually running around as a Kelvezu, which has Natural Armor. Getting natural armor isn't that hard at the levels we're talking about with a competent wizard - and PAO is permanent. Even a ranger might want to be a Kelvezu, he certainly doesn't want to be a humanoid at higher levels, and that'll give him +8d6 SA in addition to NA, a new dex modifier, and other benefits. I won't even diginify this with a response. Quote: Skills: the erinyes's skill set is comparable to the rangers, and it will know more skills given it's higher skill points per HD and +2 INT bonus beyond that of the ranger. The difference in HD will hurt, but the +5 ability bonuses will nicely close the gap. I agree. The erinyes has skills. The rogue is still better in general at the rogue skill set (having all of them in class, and most likely having focused his PB in the related attributes - something the Erinyes probably won't have done), which covers most of the party's skill needs right there. The rangers spot/listen and hide/ms are good enough, and that + survival (note the ranger has *Track* for free to make it useful) are most of the skills he cares about. My criteria is comparability to the ranger and track can always be picked up as a fit. We seems to have different ideas about the utility of skills in general Now that I've demonstrated the equivalence of attack, saving throws, and skill points (and the superiority of AC, plus DR and SR), let's move on to class abilites. I would hardly call that demonstrated. I grant it has better skills than the ranger - it totally loses on DPS (damage per second) to the ranger, however. And the AC bonus is smaller than claimed to non-existent at high levels. Again, as a move-attack-move skirmisher, iterative attacks don't matter so much. Further, the erinye's consistent +5 to damage will usually be better than the rangers max +8 (which he'll only have if he heavily specialized in 1 creature type). The AC bonus will always be +8 natural armor which is a lot (I, like many posters nowadays, completly ignore the existance of the phb polymorph spells, and any goup I've played with eventually finds the game more enjoyable without polymorph shenanigans). I'm also going to assume it gets the Outsider type, and therefore Darkvision, Simple and Martial Weapon Proficiencies, and being a pain to resurrect as racial abilities. They're in the description. Given your other statements I would have assumed that Revive Outsider (Cleric 6, spell compendium) is a common spell is your games. The question before us is does the erinyes gain suffiient abilities to justify an ECL 16. Further, from the perspective on constructing a monster class, does it gain something useful at each class level. Level 1: It's gaining full bab, monk saves, rogue skill points, and a large natural armor bonus (it will be wearing leather also). the strength bonus is giving it some extra ability to attack and damage and the charm person 1/day is icing on the cake (a wizard is only casting 2 level spells at this level). It certainly doesn't need any help. First, ignore the BAB, saves, skills, etc... those were already used to demonstrate parity above. No, they were used to demonstrate parity at ECL 16. They are huge advantages advantages at level 1 and full HD. So what does it get as "class features" at level 1? Int +2, Str +2, +2 vs. poison, charm person 1/day, natural armor +3. Now, at least one of the Int+2 and Str +2 could be seen as racial abilities, since just getting the outsider type is really unexciting in terms of available race options. (Compare to Dwarf for instance). And race is something all the other PCs are going to have. We can bundle +2 vs poison in there as well. To make thinks simpler, we compare the erinyes with the human who gains +1 skill/point per level and a feat. The +2 INT is more than equivalent to +1 skill point per level and +2 Str granting +1 to attack and damage is strictly better than weapon focus which only add +1 to attack with 1 weapon. That leaves us with Charm Person 1/day, NA +3, and lets say Str+2. We'll say Charm Person 1/day, NA +3, +2 vs poisons, and +1 to damage. Plus good base everything which is certainly powerful. The Ranger only gets Favored Enemy 1, Track, and Wild Empathy. He also buys a Chain Shirt (which the Erinyes can't match with Mithril Chain Shirt yet), giving him a higher AC. Honestly, advantage Ranger. (It should also be noted a grey elf wizard, who has the same int mod, gets 3 first level spells/day, 4 if he specializes). First, the ranger starts off with studded leather (+3 armor) and the erinyes starts off with leather (+2). By the end of the level the ranger has a chain shirt (+4) and the erinyes has MW studded leather (+3). In other words, the erinyes will always have +2 natural armor above the ranger. While track serves a completely different purpose, it's still a feat and +2 to natural amor is comparable or better than afeat. The ranger is getting +2 damage to 1 favored enemy whereas the erinyes is getting +1 damage to everybody. Seems fine to me. Charm perosn may only be useable once per day, but it will probably be more useful than wild empathy. Level 2: HD advance, it's getting dodge as a bonus feat (in the same manner as a ranger or monk) and its getting it's entangle trick 1/day which is enough for level 2. Dodge is a really craptastic feat, so giving it as a bonus feat is the only reason the erinyes would ever take it. The 'entangle' trick is animate rope, another 1st level wizard spell. These barely qualify as class features. The ranger, otoh, gets his first combat style, which is either TWF or Rapid Fire, which is absolutely amazing. Advantage most definitely Ranger. Dodge is a pre-req for many more useful feats, dismissing animate rope as a first level spell when you're only level 2 seeems kind of strange, the erinyes is still getting good base everything, and the dex bonus is giving another +1 to attack / +1 to AC, the +2 charisma is improving all charisma-based skill checks and eventually improving the DCs of the spell-likes. level 3: it's losing its first HD, but the hp loss is mitigated by the con bonus, and it's getting substantial energy resistance (for the level), DR that is unlikely to be bypassed at this point short of an align-weapon spell, and it's geting flight early. Flight at level 3 is only mildly exciting - the wizard did just get alter self after all. (Which also lets the wizard grab higher NA than the erinyes at this point). First, the ranger is not gaining alter self at level 3 and he's our acid test. Second, alter self doesn't exist in many people's games for the very reasons you point out - it's a 2nd level spell that is strictly better than barkskin, a 2nd level spell with no other purpose but to raise natural armor and stricly better than fly, a 3rd level spell. Resistance 10 to 3 elements is pretty decent at this level - but everyone who knows what an erinyes is expects her to have that, so smart enemies aren't going to burn inappropriate spells on her. The +con gives her 2 hp, which is less than a HD would have given her (and thus the Ranger got more hp this level). DR 1/x is not very exciting, even at this level. Its mostly annoying from a bookkeeping perspective. The Ranger, otoh, got a HD (higher max ranks, more hp) and Endurance... ok, I'm going to have to give the Erinyes this one, but the Erinyes still hasn't caught up to the combat style boost. He does get a feat one level ahead though. That everyone can identify the PC as an erinyes and know that it has enrgy resistance / what kinds of resistances it has is a pretty big assumption. It's another big assumption that the encounter is planned ahead of time and that the opponents can adjust their prepared spells accordingly. The spontanoeus casters and spell-like using monsters without the appropriate damage types don't have much of a choice either. If the LA levels didn't keep accumulating, eventually the bonus hp form the +2 would surpass that gained by the HD. At any rate, the difference isn't that large with the erinyes getting 2 hp and the ranger getting an average of probably 6.5 hp. Over the course of the level, that DR 1 you disparage will absorb far more than 4 hp. You keep harping on the combat stylwe, but it'd just a feat that anyone (with suffient ability scores which the erinyes will have) can take. Level 4: A quiet level, to make up for the previous (appropriate) surfeit, it's still boosting abiliies scores, armor and nullifying magical darkness that's potentially becoming a problem. See in darkness is amazing at this level. dex +2 and +1 NA aren't anything to write home about - the wizard still has you beat on NA. And you're a level behind the wizard for minor image, but its still a good ability. The Ranger gets an Animal Companion and a 1st level spell if he has at least a 12 wisdom. He also gets to increase a stat with a level pump. Close call. The Ranger is still far better overall here though (from the Combat Style). As usual, there's little point in bringing a wizard into it and even less point in bringing in alter self. Further, the erinyes is getting abilies that the ranger cannot replicate (the same is true off the ranger but getting one 1st level spell and a 1st level animal companion at level 4 does not dramatically aler its power). Level 5: another HD lost, but initially decent spell resistance is plently for one level, plus more entangling and a summoning ability (the amount of lemures being appropriate for the level). Gets SR - which would be level appropriate if the Erinyes had full HD (which it doesnt). Lemures are a CR 1 that you get 50% of the time (and a pretty crappy CR 1 at that)? The wizard summons better stuff with SMIII and doesn't have to worry about the summoning not happening, so this ability isn't even relevant. And more *1st level spell* SLA per day, whee. The Ranger gets his second favored enemy and a HD. Advantage almost certainly Ranger. 40% ECL spell resistance is nothing to sneer at. Lemure's are SM II, 1d3 lemures are SM III. To take into account the 50% the number was about doubled to 2d4. Further, I think you underestimate the poor Lemure - they're indredibly difficult to kill for CR 1 creatures and while they have no attack powe they can assist in other ways. I also don't see what you have against a ranged touch entagling attack - it's useful. Level 6: faster flight, better DR, better poison saves, mobility as a bonus feat (a la monk or ranger), it's enough for a level. A bad level, DR is still fairly meh as is the poison saves. Erinyes doesn't even get a level pump for 4HD because thats factored into its bonuses to stats already. Mobility is another crap feat. Flight is the only good news this level, and the Wizard has both alter self and fly available, which means flight for the whole party. Alternately, everyone else spent a pittance of gp on hippogriff mounts. The Ranger got his second combat style feat, another feat from HD, another 1st level spell/day, and a second attack from BAB. Ranger totally dominates this level. This is 6th level - flight is hardly available to the entire party and the wizard certainly isn't spending all his 3rd level spells granting it. I won't bother commenting on the logistics of having the entire party astride hippogriff mounts (which are undoubtedly stored in their pokeballs when not needed). Level 7: It's getting new spell-likes at the same level that a primary caster would get them and can use them about as often as the caster would, plus other things improve. Unholy Blight is a non-ability. Seriously. Charm Monster is good, but the caster could be doing that 3 times per day, or have other good spell options. Your CL is what at this point? 4? Meaning your spells are easily dispelled, have a hard time dealing with SR, and so forth. I don't see how unholy blight is a non-ability. Any party with an erinyes is probably fighting things besides evil opponents. Regardless, both it acd charm monster are level appropriate abilites. Caster level is tied to monster class level, not HD (must as the caster lvel for a monster's spell-likes is independent of its HD), so dispelling and SR are the same that a 7th level caster would face. A little more NA and stats. Every littel bit helps. The Ranger grabbed woodland stride and a HD... ok, probably marginal advantage to the Erinyes here. Very marginal. His BAB is +7 to the Erinyes +3 at this point. With the acculumated stat bonuses the difference isn't quite as large. Level 8: it gets teleport 1 level early because its self only and it can use its entangling schtick as often as it likes. Add the ability bonuses and it's plenty. A 1st level spell at-will? Oh no! Teleport self only at 8th level is decent. Some ability bonuses, but we've only got 5HD! The Ranger just nabbed his first 2nd level spell and swift tracker. Advantage Erinyes, but only because of Teleport. Ranged touch entangle at will is a nice ability. Teleport is a terrific ability. We seem to have different ideas on much should be gained per level. The monk doesn't get its 1/day dimension door until level 12. Level 9: ability bonuses, summoning stays level appropriate and DR improves, and gets a useful spell-like at the same time a caster would. 1d4 Bearded devils 50% of the time at level 9 is 'level appropriate'? I must be missing something. I'll take SMV any day. True Seeing is not all that and a bag of chips - its basically autofoil illusion, which is good sometimes but not earth-shattering. A bearded devil is SM 5. True seeing will be counteracting invsibility, blur, illusions, magical disguises, etc.. It's a nice ability, especially when it becomes continuous and you don't have to suspect somenthing before activating it. Ranger gets Evasion and a HD (including a feat). The Ranger is now up 2 chosen feats on the Erinyes. I have to give this level to the ranger. BAB +9 vs +5. Add the bonus feats and they're actually tied and add the ability bonuses and the attack discrepency isn't as large. level 10: useful telepathy, more frequent use of many spell-likes (similar to a primary caster) and improved natural armor - it's enough for a level. Telepathy is a flavor ability. Oh noes, talk to anything. A 1 level dip in mindbender can nab that for a wizard, no problem. To even compare its limited selection of spell-likes to what a caster is doing at 10th level is just crazy talk. Finally got a 6th HD and a feat from it. Right, because you can always speak the language of your charmed creature and because every wizard takes a 1-level dip in a half-caster prestige class that inappropriately grants spell at odd levels instead of even ones. As always, the comparison is not to primary casters - that's not the erinyes role. Ranger grabs a 3rd favored enemy and a second 2nd level spell. Probably marginally in the Erinyes favor as compared to a Ranger, but the Ranger is entirely specialized whereas the Erinyes is failing to compete with the Ranger on damage and the Wizard on spellcasting - its like the bard problem but far worse because at least the bard has 10HD. It's damage does lag the ranger's but it's doing plenty of things the ranger cannot. Again the direct caster comarison is pointless. level 11: the immunities are plenty. A monk would just get poison immunity at this level. And a druid got poison immunity 2 levels ago. And a cleric has had effective poison immunity for 2-3 (from extended delay poison). The Ranger doesn't even care about your fire immunity because he has evasion, and typically takes no damage from most fire damage anyway. The Ranger just nabbed a 3rd BAB attack and his third combat style and his first 3rd level spell. He seriously wins this level, and is far ahead of the Erinyes at this point. The point is that it gets the poison immunity at around the right level. With the +4 vs poisons it was previously given, the good fort save, the con bonuses, its been usually safe from poison for a while. This simply extends it to always safe. That cleric is going to have to make his saves at some point. The ranger is not alwyas going to make its reflex and not every fire-related effect requires one(e.g. a flaming weapon). Fire immunity certainly doesn't hurt. Quote: So, at every level, the erinyes is getting something useful and at a power level appropriate to other ecl characters. Is LA +7 too much? probably, but I definitely wouldn't give it less than LA +5. The Erinyes is a bad ranged attacker who is far behind on feats, HD, and BAB (attacks!), meaning she will be lacking critical abilities at every level. She gets a few useful spell-likes, but doesn't have the breadth of options that real spellcasters have and therefore can handle few situations. Furthermore, her caster level is abysmal at every level it matters. At many points she's getting more uses of abilities that *don't even matter* anymore, which is a non-ability. The erinyes is not behind on feats, the lack of HD difference is situation specific, hp are comparable (espercially with unlikely to bypass DR helping out), its caster level is just fine (its tied to monster class level not HD), its attack bonus is fine (save for iterative attacks, but its' a skirmisher so won't be using them anyway). I can't think of any party that wouldn't rather have a Ranger than this Erinyes - and most would probably grab a druid to tank instead. As I said, ECL 14 would probably be more appropriate than 16. The criteria is whether it's roughly comparable to the ranger or perhaps to a high level skirmisher.
Captain_Kobold 04-20-07, 10:31 PM	Seriously, you just said "a gaming group that uses the published rules would prefer a full-level ranger instead". If all they are after is the best tracker, wilderness expert and ranged skirmisher possible then yes, that is pretty much exactly what I said. Or are you trying to say that anyone who wants to play a hot female outsider for roleplaying purposes should be substantially less powerful than other members of the party? How does that even begin to make sense? I do not believe that I singled out only female Erinyes. I'm saying that an Erinyes will not be a drag to the party, and that the difference in power (if any) will not be substantial in most groups. A munchkin optimised group playing a game of pure combat power with very limited roleplaying or social interaction, in a game with no stabilising houserules whose DM has allowed abuses of the RAW, including the polymorph subschool, are likely to prefer to have full-level Ranger instead.. Hmmm. My comment was intended neither as a rebuttal nor as an insult to anyone. It certainly was not intended to translate to "Everyone that disagrees with me is a doody-head." I'm aware that some groups do actually play this way. A "Kick in the door" style where the DM sticks to the RAW and the players are almost competing against each other as to who can do the most damage. If the group is enjoying themselves playing that way, then their style is just as valid as any other. However, they would likely view an Erinyes character as not the best option. Most groups tend to mix combat with roleplaying and social interaction a bit more. Its this sort of game (as well as the other extreme of an extremely political and social game where combat is very rare) in which a player might want to play an Erinyes. As Squirreloid said: people are likely to want to play one for roleplaying purposes. It can't really perform any of the four pure party roles as well as a full-level class, but makes a good 'face', backup scout and ranged skirmisher. Possibly Bard would have been a better comparison class?
Argaud 04-20-07, 11:04 PM	First, the ranger is not gaining alter self at level 3 and he's our acid test. Second, alter self doesn't exist in many people's games for the very reasons you point out - it's a 2nd level spell that is strictly better than barkskin, a 2nd level spell with no other purpose but to raise natural armor and stricly better than fly, a 3rd level spell. I have to add a comment here. The ranger “gains” Alter Self, uh? Very cool. Having wizard buddies is sweet. Alas, he is an humanoid, yes? LA+0 does not allow for real outsiders (the lesser planetouched are humanoids). Do you know what happens when you use Alter Self on an outsider? Yeah, the wizard buddy is casting the spell on the Erinyes, not in the ranger. Much more bang for the buck. Much. More.
catharz 04-20-07, 11:34 PM	Except that didn't even come up in my level-by-level comparison. The Ranger beat the Erinyes *without* polymorph. Well, yes, I did read your post. I'm just saying that opening your discussion with the Kelvezeu is a good way to get RPNRPs to start calling you mean names. The comparison of ranger vs. erinyes seemed good, but there were a few things which I honestly don't know the worth of, so I felt that I shouldn't comment.
Gharlane 04-21-07, 01:27 AM	RPNRPs? I Haven't heard that one before. I'll go out on a limb and guess it means 'role-players not roll-players'?
Squirrelloid 04-21-07, 03:01 AM	It will be assuming the ranger / ranged attacker / lightly armored mobility fighter role. I should note that skirmishers are a mostly unplayable role in most parties unless you have 5 or 6 PCs. Or if there is a skirmisher its the rogue (who's the only party member who can afford to be a skirmisher). The only available role for the Erinyes to replace is the Tank (best as a druid or druid AC in my experience, but probably fighter/barb/paladin/ranger in most people's experience). At which point you're missing a fundamental idea here - that you're not just operating on your own but as part of a party, and have to be able to contribute something useful to that party. If you fail to do so, you are not a playable character. The Erinyes cannot replace the arcanist, the divine caster, or the rogue. Therefore, it must be the tank/melee specialist. This is an inherent problem with LA, but by the time the discrepancy becomes large, it will only be the holy word spell and its variations that will have an impact (and whatever other no save, HD but not hp dependent high level spells there are out there). It should be pointed out that Holy Word/et al. are insta-gib spells if you're behind on HD. Check out what beind down 7HD relative to ECL means on Holy Word, then check out what happens if you run into a APL+4 encounter with being 11HD down relative to the CL of Holy Word. Hint: very bad things. Similarly, you'll be significantly nailed by color spray longer than most characters. And there's a bunch of other illusion and enchantment spells and effects that will be a problem. We undoubtedly have different perceptions about the ubiquity of multi-classing. Multi-classing really isn't something you can consider when determing a creatures LA or writing a monster class. Other than rogue and druid i've never seen a character make it past level 5 without multi-classing. This isn't always into a PrC. I've seen lots of Fighter/Barb builds, for instance. That multi-classed characters will have better saving throws (and worse BAB) than single-classed characters isn't something that directly pertains to the analysis. But it is. Characters who aren't Erinyes have the *option* of multiclassing. The Erinyes does not. Options are power. Add the bonus feats and the Erinyes is not any feats behind. As to class ability comparisons, keep reading. The Erinyes gets 4 feats from HD, and 2 set bonus feats. (Dodge, Mobility). Not only that, its bonus feats are some of the worst feats in the PHB. They beat Improved Turning, but that's like saying getting a root canal without anaesthetic beats dying. In the same levels the Ranger gets 5 bonus feats and 6 feats from HD. One of his bonus feats is pretty bad (Endurance), comparably bad to Mobility. Tracking is much better than Dodge. And either RapidFire/Manyshot/Greater Manyshot OR TWF/ITWF/GTWF are pretty good feats. The RF/MS/GMS tree is more comparable to what you think the Erinyes is doing - and to match it the Erinyes has to also take PBS (which the Ranger *doesnt*), meaning that's all 4 of your chosen feats by *16th level*. Oh wait, you didn't get shot on the run, did you? Oops. And the ranger hasn't even touched his feats from HD yet. That's still 3/4 of the CR 16 monsters that won't bypass the DR. Moreover, the whole point of a monster class is to use the monster at all levels of play. That DR is not being bypassed a lot at lower levels. And the Erinyes DR is mostly forgettable at most of those levels too. Like level 5, where you have 3d8 HD and DR 1/good. A fairly common CR5 opponent is a troll... better hope you don't encounter it indoors, because since the party has you they had to drop their tank - and someone is getting reamed. A CR 4 encounter is a tiger, which has pounce, and will rip you or someone else apart on the charge. The ranger has a decent shot of surviving this with 5HD, and can tank for the group (preventing it from charging someone else). DR 1/good isn't going to save you then. The fact that the DR is ignored by elemental damage and the Erinyes has no resistance to Electricity, Sonic, or Negative Energy damage, is a moot point - other classes don't get any DR or energy resistance. Okay, the barbarian gets DR and the the warlock gets DR and energy resistnace, but the energy resistance and DR are still useful class abilities for the erinyes. Hint, at some point everyone has energy resistance because they buy pearls of power for the wizard so he casts it for them. 2nd level pearl of power: 4k gp. Drop in the bucket by the time you really want it. The erinyes will be using shot-on-the-run or flyby attack, so the iterative attacks won't come up anyway - the erinyes is designed to be a skirmisher. Also the erinyes can certainly take the TWF tree as feats instead of class abilites like the ranger. The 16th level ranger's favored enemy bonus will apply up to +8 to one creature type; when the ranger is fighting a non-favored enemy the bonus damage won't apply. The erinyes' +5 will apply to everyone. The ranger can take a move action and make as many attacks as he would be granted by his BAB with a standard action using Many Shot. Strictly better. Starts at level 6 if he goes the ranged route. Of course, if you're moving around that much at low-mid levels, the party is probably getting reamed because they have you instead of a druid. If you're moving around that much at high levels and taking one attack per turn, you might as well not be there - you aren't doing enough damage to matter (especially since you're hitting ~50% of the time). The rangers favored enemy bonus at level 16 is +8/+6/+4/+2 against some pretty generalized types. Some cleverness in choosing your favored enemies will lead to being able to use them most of the time. In particular, if you're playing for high level Construct/Undead/Dragon/Evil Outsider covers most of the opponents in the MM (CR 14+), order to preference. (Given dragons are rarer than the number in the MM would suggest, replace it with Good Outsider as the next most common.) I've addressed multi-classing above. The fact that its an option for regular characters and not the Erinyes is a huge deal. The spell resistance becomes less useful at higher levels, it's true, but it will still be helpful for much of the erinyes' adventuring career. Moreover, not every spellcaster will have the spell penetration feats andmore common opponetns with spell-like abiliies certainly won't. Yes, but most spellcasters will have more CLs than the APL. Which means even less chance of success. Comparing the effectiveness of your SR against an ECL caster is being *generous*. Opponents with SLAs tend to have totally random CLs in excess of their CR. Note the Erinyes is CR 8 with CL 12. Oh yeah, that's sort of like having spell penetration, except better. Actually, the max dex of mithril chainmail is +5. Moreover, a mithril breastplate would be striclty better. Still, your halfling rogue may not want to wear either due to the armor check penalty. bah - i meant Chain Shirt... I always type chainmail instead. Mithril chain shirt max dex 6, 0 ACP. That's all besides the point. The combined armor bonus / dex bonus will cap at +10 for the erinyes and the non-erinyes light armored character (with special materials, semi-obsure sourcebooks, etc., it might go a little higher). Although a dex-focused rogue ends up with a +12-13 dex bonus at high levels and drops the armor thing entirely - or just grabs bracers of armor for +8 armor bonus. The natural armor +8 will still remain in full. +8 to AC beyond what anyone else can get will ensure that the erinyes it getting hit much less often than a comparable character. It's is a pretty significant class ability. I don't really find it that significant. The rogue has had a ring of blinking since level ~10 (50% miss chance unless her foe is *ethereal*), which is far superior to +8 NA. Sure, you could grab one too - except it doesn't let you grab a handful of sneak attack dice every attack they can be used like it does the rogue. A melee character has probably capitalized on their hittable AC at that point by grabbing Karmic Strike. If you're going to get hit - get hit and return some pain. (Of course, the druid puts your AC to shame by at least 10 points - and he has the good grace to tank for the party). I won't even diginify this with a response. Because *no one* *ever* plays with polymorph. Clearly. Its only a core spell. Heck, alter self isn't even on the WotC occasional hit list like polymorph is. My criteria is comparability to the ranger and track can always be picked up as a fit. We seems to have different ideas about the utility of skills in general. "track can always be picked up as a fit (sic)"? I assume feat - you realize you have *4* total feats from 1-16ECL to spend? That's not much room for customization. I'm looking at skills from a party perspective. The wizard is going to cover basically all the knowledge skills. The rogue is going to be the face, trapfinder, and scout. The cleric is going to sac intelligence and max concentration until he can cast defensively with no problems, but has a number of spells that make his skills awesometastic (technical term) as needed. The 'tank' is either going to be a druid (with survival, spot, listen, kno (nature) and some other stuff) or his animal companion (with scent!), which will make a good early-warning system for the rest of the party. A ranger can also perform the scout/look-out function. Either of these are skill-wise superior to fighter/barbarian/paladin, who mostly won't do anything good with their skills. (ok, the barb has survival. The paladin can take some face duties. whee). A party with serious skill holes grabs some cohorts at 6th level to plug them. The Erinyes doesn't really fit in here. She doesn't provide anything the rogue isn't already doing almost as well. The rogue provides skills she can't (trapfinding and disarming, UMD). And she doesn't make a viable tank, a role for which her skill list is mostly irrelevant. The party *doesn't need her*. Again, as a move-attack-move skirmisher, iterative attacks don't matter so much. As a move-attack-move with crappy attack bonus, she is totally irrelevant at any level. And becoming more so as levels get higher. This is not a viable tactic. Further, the erinye's consistent +5 to damage will usually be better than the rangers max +8 (which he'll only have if he heavily specialized in 1 creature type). Yeah, except the ranger is getting more attacks, and hitting more often. +5 to damage vs a second attack? second attack wins. Even if the ranger just manyshots for 2 attacks, he takes a -2 to hit (possibly putting him equal in attack bonus to the erinyes, but probably still higher) and doubles his damage. On top of that the ranger will sometimes get a +2-+8 bonus. Winner: Ranger - he's actually doing something level appropriate. The AC bonus will always be +8 natural armor which is a lot (I, like many posters nowadays, completly ignore the existance of the phb polymorph spells, and any goup I've played with eventually finds the game more enjoyable without polymorph shenanigans). Because ignoring the rules makes them go away. Seriously. You can't assume houserules on the boards. And doing away with polymorph is a houserule, no matter how you justify it. Of course, the ranger has almost 8 more BAB than you, he can take Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise with his double the number of feats you have to piddle some of that away and basically make up for your NA bonus. They're in the description. Given your other statements I would have assumed that Revive Outsider (Cleric 6, spell compendium) is a common spell is your games. Actually, being hard to revive is an Outsider Trait. So one could argue that spell is illegal because it conflicts with the primary source on creature Types (the MM). Regardless, its 2 levels after Reincarnate and 1 level after Raise Dead, so its still harder to revive. No, they were used to demonstrate parity at ECL 16. They are huge advantages advantages at level 1 and full HD. The Ranger, of course, has the same HD size, 2 fewer skills/level, enough skills to fulfill the role he needs to serve in a party, 2 good saves (only off by 1... shucks), and the same BAB. To make thinks simpler, we compare the erinyes with the human who gains +1 skill/point per level and a feat. The +2 INT is more than equivalent to +1 skill point per level and +2 Str granting +1 to attack and damage is strictly better than weapon focus which only add +1 to attack with 1 weapon. The ranger doesn't *need* more skill points/level. He's already capable of fulfilling his role. And yes, lets justify +2 str as better than a feat by comparing it to a *craptastic* feat. WF is a necessary evil to qualify for other feats or PrCs. Its not worth the paper its printed on. Feats like Combat Reflexes or Karmic Strike are good feats - which hands down beats +2 Str no questions asked. The human can choose almost any feat, which means he can choose something that will be awesometastic. For someone who understands polymorph is incredibly good, I would have through you would have realized *choice is power*. Also, I still maintain Dwarf (or similar) with less open-ended abilities is a more appropriate comparison. ------- Before we go into this, something should be made perfectly clear. A strict comparison to the ranger isn't actually the correct way to do this. When the Erinyes is behaving like a caster, it needs to be compared to a caster, because that's the member of the party its competing with. When its behaving like a warrior it needs to be compared to a warrior, and so forth. This is whenever an action is taken that action needs to be level appropriate, and a wizard is performing level appropriate casting actions, a warrior is performing level appropriate attack actions, etc.... Anything else leads you to the conclusion that the Bard is amazing, and he's not. We'll say Charm Person 1/day, NA +3, +2 vs poisons, and +1 to damage. Plus good base everything which is certainly powerful. First, the ranger starts off with studded leather (+3 armor) and the erinyes starts off with leather (+2). By the end of the level the ranger has a chain shirt (+4) and the erinyes has MW studded leather (+3). In other words, the erinyes will always have +2 natural armor above the ranger. While track serves a completely different purpose, it's still a feat and +2 to natural amor is comparable or better than afeat. ... I'm not going to say the erinyes can't compete at first level. It can. But that's because it hasn't started losing HD yet. Finally, +2 NA is not comparable to all feats. Admittedly, Track can be very situational depending on the campaign. I can't actually imagine someone playing a ranger in a campaign where it wouldn't come up, however. (If nothing else, the ranger would seem out of place if the party wasn't in the wilderness regularly). But lets call them even here. Dodge is a pre-req for many more useful feats, dismissing animate rope as a first level spell when you're only level 2 seeems kind of strange, the erinyes is still getting good base everything, and the dex bonus is giving another +1 to attack / +1 to AC, the +2 charisma is improving all charisma-based skill checks and eventually improving the DCs of the spell-likes. Dodge is still a crappy feat any way you slice it. And its a pre-req to a few useful feats, of which you'll get to take at most 4. animate rope is a spell i've rarely seen cast, and you've got it a level behind the wizard if he wants to use it. Its not an exciting ability. But yes, you haven't lost a HD yet, we're still in playable land. First, the ranger is not gaining alter self at level 3 and he's our acid test. Second, alter self doesn't exist in many people's games for the very reasons you point out - it's a 2nd level spell that is strictly better than barkskin, a 2nd level spell with no other purpose but to raise natural armor and stricly better than fly, a 3rd level spell. Actually, Alter Self is not strictly better than Barkskin - Barkskin is an enhancement bonus to natural armor, Alter Self can supply actual Natural Armor. Therefore they stack. You want both. Its also not better than fly (difference in maneuverability between the two is pretty important - Alter Self can't hover, for instance, and thus falls if stalled). That everyone can identify the PC as an erinyes and know that it has enrgy resistance / what kinds of resistances it has is a pretty big assumption. It's another big assumption that the encounter is planned ahead of time and that the opponents can adjust their prepared spells accordingly. The spontanoeus casters and spell-like using monsters without the appropriate damage types don't have much of a choice either. Who are the people who throw around elemental damage? Oh right - the people with *high intelligence* and *ranks in knowledge skills*. How stupid of me to assume they could identify a common outsider. I guess i'll stop making plausible assumptions. (This is assuming they bother to use elemental damage. They could do something smart - like web, glitterdust, colorspray, etc...) If the LA levels didn't keep accumulating, eventually the bonus hp form the +2 would surpass that gained by the HD. At any rate, the difference isn't that large with the erinyes getting 2 hp and the ranger getting an average of probably 6.5 hp. Over the course of the level, that DR 1 you disparage will absorb far more than 4 hp. You keep harping on the combat stylwe, but it'd just a feat that anyone (with suffient ability scores which the erinyes will have) can take. But the ranger gets it *for free* and gets his normal feats. You have *4*. (Also, the ranger gets it regardless of his stats - and in the case of the ranged combat style gets to skip a pre-req). As usual, there's little point in bringing a wizard into it and even less point in bringing in alter self. Further, the erinyes is getting abilies that the ranger cannot replicate (the same is true off the ranger but getting one 1st level spell and a 1st level animal companion at level 4 does not dramatically aler its power). A riding dog is still decent at 4th level (the druid just upgraded to a deinonychus, but what can you do?). Most notably, it gives the ranger access to scent and another blocker to prevent enemies charging the rest of the party. The erinyes might have abilities the ranger doesn't get, but she doesn't do anything no one else in the party can do. That's a problem. 40% ECL spell resistance is nothing to sneer at. Lemure's are SM II, 1d3 lemures are SM III. To take into account the 50% the number was about doubled to 2d4. Further, I think you underestimate the poor Lemure - they're indredibly difficult to kill for CR 1 creatures and while they have no attack powe they can assist in other ways. I also don't see what you have against a ranged touch entagling attack - it's useful. 40% SR if your opponents are CL = APL. And if they use spells that allow SR. etc... So many ifs. 50% of the time summons are useless - give me the sure thing Celestial Bison (which, btw, will own the lemures - multiple lower CR monsters is generally strictly worse than taking one of the highest CR you can grab). This is 6th level - flight is hardly available to the entire party and the wizard certainly isn't spending all his 3rd level spells granting it. I won't bother commenting on the logistics of having the entire party astride hippogriff mounts (which are undoubtedly stored in their pokeballs when not needed). Flying mounts are almost an expectation of 6th level play. Unless you spend all your time in a dungeon, at which point flying is irrelevant. I don't see how unholy blight is a non-ability. Any party with an erinyes is probably fighting things besides evil opponents. Regardless, both it acd charm monster are level appropriate abilites. Caster level is tied to monster class level, not HD (must as the caster lvel for a monster's spell-likes is independent of its HD), so dispelling and SR are the same that a 7th level caster would face. When was the last time you saw someone cast unholy blight? No, seriously, I'm curious. I have *never* seen it cast. Ever. Not even prepared. Non-ability. Uh... I don't have the rules for monster levels in front of me, but CL should be tied to HD. (Actually, I don't know what an erinyes CL should be tied to, since it should end up with CL12 at 9HD). With the acculumated stat bonuses the difference isn't quite as large. The point you're missing is that the difference in BAB is a whole attack. That's huge. That's the difference between level appropriate and not. Ranged touch entangle at will is a nice ability. Teleport is a terrific ability. We seem to have different ideas on much should be gained per level. The monk doesn't get its 1/day dimension door until level 12. So, first you have to throw the rope (or otherwise have it by the monsters) - a standard action - basically an attack targetting a square. Then you have to cast the spell. If you get it close enough, you can try to entangle an enemy if they fail a DC 11+cha mod reflex saving throw. If you entangle them, you can then have it tie them up. Of course, its 9th level, so by the time you even get to tying them up the combat is already over. Its a disabling spell that takes more than one round to pull off = non-ability at 9th level. Teleport *self only*. Big difference. Its proof against Wall of Force and similar, which is nice. Except you'd need to have *something to contribute* to make anyone care that you couldn't be kept away by walls and the like. Since your offense is totally lackluster, no one cares. And the monk... if polymorph is unplayably good, the monk is equally (if not more so) unplayably bad. I don't even care when he gets abundant step - he has the same problem as the erinyes class here: no offense anyone cares about. A bearded devil is SM 5. True seeing will be counteracting invsibility, blur, illusions, magical disguises, etc.. It's a nice ability, especially when it becomes continuous and you don't have to suspect somenthing before activating it. Its still a 50% summon, and you place yourself in debt to the summoned demons. Yum? And it doesn't scale, unlike a wizard's spellcasting. True Seeing will counteract stuff that you mostly won't care about by this point, because illusions are getting a lot less common at these levels. Add the bonus feats and they're actually tied and add the ability bonuses and the attack discrepency isn't as large. Ranger: 4 attacks from BAB, up to 1 more ranged or 3 more melee with bonus feats. 5 bonus feats (assuming no PrCs) and 6 feats from HD. Erinyes: 2 attacks from BAB, 2 bonus feats and 4 feats from HD. That doesn't look *anything* alike. Right, because you can always speak the language of your charmed creature and because every wizard takes a 1-level dip in a half-caster prestige class that inappropriately grants spell at odd levels instead of even ones. Dipping mindbender is a no duh for any enchanter-focused wizard. You'd be stupid not to. Its also the preferred lead-in to some really abusive cheese, like Ur-Priest, if anyone actually plays with that. (I don't, but I'm sure someone does). And hardly inappropriately - its a half-caster that has no reason for existence other than that first level. *No one* would play any of its levels if it didn't get a CL there. It shouldn't even be a half-caster, its strictly worse than going straight wizard if you want to mind-control people. As always, the comparison is not to primary casters - that's not the erinyes role. When the erinyes is being a spellcaster, she needs to be level appropriate compared to spellcasters. Ie, her spell-likes. It's damage does lag the ranger's but it's doing plenty of things the ranger cannot. Again the direct caster comarison is pointless. Lags? Talk about understatement. Its damage is *unnoticeable* compared to the ranger. She might as well not be there. She's better off trying to be a caster, and she still fails. Again, your erinyes is bad for the same reasons bards aren't good - it gets abilities suitable to multiple roles, and subpar at all of them. That's bad class design. The point is that it gets the poison immunity at around the right level. With the +4 vs poisons it was previously given, the good fort save, the con bonuses, its been usually safe from poison for a while. This simply extends it to always safe. That cleric is going to have to make his saves at some point. The ranger is not alwyas going to make its reflex and not every fire-related effect requires one(e.g. a flaming weapon). Fire immunity certainly doesn't hurt. The cleric can just keep casting delay poison and never have to make the save =) Fire immunity is a nice toy, but its not really that exciting. Quote: So, at every level, the erinyes is getting something useful and at a power level appropriate to other ecl characters. Is LA +7 too much? probably, but I definitely wouldn't give it less than LA +5. The erinyes is not behind on feats, the lack of HD difference is situation specific, hp are comparable (espercially with unlikely to bypass DR helping out), its caster level is just fine (its tied to monster class level not HD), its attack bonus is fine (save for iterative attacks, but its' a skirmisher so won't be using them anyway). As I said, ECL 14 would probably be more appropriate than 16. The criteria is whether it's roughly comparable to the ranger or perhaps to a high level skirmisher. There is no such thing as a high-level skirmisher archetype because high-level skirmishers *aren't level appropriate*. They don't matter. And they don't fulfill a role in the party. The only class that can possibly skirmish in a level-appropriate manner is the rogue, who gets sneak attack to make up for it. And he's still better off blinking and throwing potions, or UMDing up something awesometastic. And he contributes to other ways outside of combat that are necessary (trapfinding), such that you *can't do without him*. The erinyes is in no way comparable to the ranger. The ranger is a DPS machine that inflicts massive hurt on the enemy. The ranger is far more valuable than the erinyes, because he provides something useful. And the ranger is still not a desirable member of a high-level party. High-level parties want as many spellcasters as they can get their hands on. Assuming the game hasn't ended yet (that'll happen by 17th level).
DarkRhystar 04-21-07, 03:12 AM	Gharlane, You may wish to consider redoing the table so it's a slightly more legible. Lowering the font size one step, bolding the headings, and splitting specials apart all make the it a bit easier to look at. Level HD BAB Fort Ref Will Skills 1 1d8 +1 2 2 2 (8 + Int)x4 2 2d8 +2 3 3 3 8 + Int 3 2d8 +2 3 3 3 - 4 3d8 +3 3 3 3 8 + Int 5 3d8 +3 3 3 3 - 6 4d8 +4 4 4 4 8 + Int 7 4d8 +4 4 4 4 - 8 5d8 +5 4 4 4 8 + Int 9 5d8 +5 4 4 4 - 10 6d8 +6/+1 5 5 5 8 + Int 11 6d8 +6/+1 5 5 5 - 12 7d8 +7/+2 5 5 5 8 + Int 13 7d8 +7/+2 5 5 5 - 14 8d8 +8/+3 6 6 6 8 + Int 15 8d8 +8/+3 6 6 6 - 16 9d8 +9/+4 6 6 6 8 + Int Level Special 1 Int +2, Str +2, +2 vs. poison, charm person 1/day, natural armor +3, feat 2 Dex +2, Cha +2, entangle 1/day, dodge 3 Con +2, Str +2, energy resistance 10 (cold, fire, acid), flight (good) 30 ft., DR 1/good 4 Wis +2, Dex +2, see in darkness, minor image 1/day, natural armor +4, feat 5 Con +2, spell resistance 11+HD, entangle 3/day, summon devil (2d4 lemures) 6 Str +2, Cha +2, flight (good) 50 ft., +4 vs. poison, mobility, DR 2/good 7 Con +2, fire resistance 20, unholy blight 1/day, charm monster 1/day, minor image 3/day, summon devil (2d6 lemures), natural armor +5 8 Wis +2, Dex +2, teleport 1/day, entangle at will 9 Con +2, Cha +2, True seeing 1/day, summon devil (2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils), DR 3/good 10 Int +2, telepathy (100 ft.), unholy blight 3/day, charm monster 3/day, minor image at will, natural armor +6, feat 11 Str +2, Wis +2, fire & poison immunity 12 Dex +2, True seeing 3/day, greater teleport 1/day, DR 4/good 13 Con +2, Cha +2, unholy blight at will, charm monster at will, natural armor +7 14 Str +2, Wis +2, greater teleport 3/day 15 Dex +2,True seeing at will, DR 5/good 16 Cha +2, greater teleport at will, natural armor +8, feat