Monster Races [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monster Races [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Magicuser
06-07-07, 04:19 AM When taking a monster race from the Monster Manual, Do you have to take the HD associated with the monster? I.e. I want to play a mindflayer. Do I have to use the 8 hd and the 7 la? or can I just ignore the 8 hd and replace it with class levels?

Also, if I do have to take the HD with the LA... why exactly?
bobothechimp
06-07-07, 05:06 AM You have to take both the racial HD and the LA. You only replace the racial HD if the creature has 1 or less. This is because having less than their full HD means that the creature is not fully grown.
celestialkin
06-07-07, 05:18 AM Unless a monster has only a single HD, you need to add both it's HD and LA + any class level it might have to get it's ECL.

There is a way of breaking down a monster's rules and abilities into "monster classes/levels" in order to play said races from first level up. The rules were printed in Savage Species, and there were a few articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) based on it.

Even if you do not like the Monster Classes method, I would still highly suggest buying a copy of Savage Species if you wish to play monster or animal races as characters.
MushroomSpore
06-07-07, 05:24 AM Also, if I do have to take the HD with the LA... why exactly?

You DO have to. One word: balance.

If you were to remove all the racial hit dice, the level adjustment would skyrocket. A mind flayer is ECL 15, them's the breaks.
celestialkin
06-07-07, 05:34 AM You DO have to. One word: balance.

If you were to remove all the racial hit dice, the level adjustment would skyrocket. A mind flayer is ECL 15, them's the breaks.

I think the guy is just asking so he can better understand the system.

Basically Magicuser, it has to do with balancing the character/monster out like MushroomSpore said. From what I understand, even if you do take out 8 HD worth of HP the monster still has the special abilities and stats equal to a 15 level character or encounter (just not the HP).
runestar
06-07-07, 06:38 AM Savage species does not fully incorporate the revised monsters' stats in the MM 3.5. I am not sure how relevant it still is in the 3.5 context...:(
bobothechimp
06-07-07, 07:51 AM While it's not 3.5, it should be fine for any games that are not huge rules-lawyering games, or as a useful set of guidelines.
celestialkin
06-07-07, 12:48 PM Savage species does not fully incorporate the revised monsters' stats in the MM 3.5. I am not sure how relevant it still is in the 3.5 context...:(

While it's not 3.5, it should be fine for any games that are not huge rules-lawyering games, or as a useful set of guidelines.

Introduction
Savage Species, a comprehensive guide to monster characters, helps you use monsters as either player characters (PCs) or nonplayer characters (NPCs) to serve as interesting allies and opponents for the player characters in your campaign.
You need the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual to use this book. The monster classes templates in Savage Species are designed to be compatible with the revised version of the Monster Manual (see the inside bar on this page for more information), but this book is still compatible with the original Monster Manual as well.

Monsters as Characters
Savage Species is all about treating monsters as characters. In keeping with the approach, this book features several changes to the rules concerning monsters. The changes summarized below are also reflected in the D&D game's revised core rulebooks, particularly the revised Monster Manual.

This book was released just a few months before the revised 3.5 core books were released, so I'm guessing Wizards intended for it to compliment the new rules, or it would have been a waste, since it would have only been useful for about three months.
skio
06-07-07, 03:28 PM Racial HD and LA are both balancing factors of a monster's power, albeit not equal in value. LA strips you from a whole class level and all its benefits (skill points, BAB, saves etc). HD strip you only from the class abilities and spells a class level may give you. So LA is more 'powerful' as a balancing factor, and, according to some, it is equal to 2 racial HD.

So, to remove the 8 HD of the mind flayer, you'll have to raise the LA by 4, resulting to a +11 LA. This character would be ECL 12 with 1 class level and, although this may seem better than having a 8 HD+7 LA = 15 ECL character, you have to consider that your illithid, without the HD, will have no more than 15-20 hp (depending on the class) at level 12! That is why racial HD comes in.

It is fairly possible to remove the racial HD in races with low LAs, but as the numbers become larger, things are getting tougher.
Neutronium_Dragon
06-07-07, 03:58 PM > Savage Species is all about treating monsters as characters.

Savage Species is somewhat dubious to go by because it's not fully 3.5E compatible and it was also declared outright by one of the authors to have been written with the intention of making monster characters mechanically undesirable to play.

That said, it is true that racial hit dice are (in theory) supposed to be factored into the overall ECL of the creature. The problem is that this has been done rather inconsistently.

To the OP: While you'd have to take the racial hit dice along with the LA, I'd suggest looking for something else. Anything with that high an LA and/or ECL inevitably works out rather poorly as a PC.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magicuser 06-07-07, 04:19 AM	When taking a monster race from the Monster Manual, Do you have to take the HD associated with the monster? I.e. I want to play a mindflayer. Do I have to use the 8 hd and the 7 la? or can I just ignore the 8 hd and replace it with class levels? Also, if I do have to take the HD with the LA... why exactly?
bobothechimp 06-07-07, 05:06 AM	You have to take both the racial HD and the LA. You only replace the racial HD if the creature has 1 or less. This is because having less than their full HD means that the creature is not fully grown.
celestialkin 06-07-07, 05:18 AM	Unless a monster has only a single HD, you need to add both it's HD and LA + any class level it might have to get it's ECL. There is a way of breaking down a monster's rules and abilities into "monster classes/levels" in order to play said races from first level up. The rules were printed in Savage Species, and there were a few articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) based on it. Even if you do not like the Monster Classes method, I would still highly suggest buying a copy of Savage Species if you wish to play monster or animal races as characters.
MushroomSpore 06-07-07, 05:24 AM	Also, if I do have to take the HD with the LA... why exactly? You DO have to. One word: balance. If you were to remove all the racial hit dice, the level adjustment would skyrocket. A mind flayer is ECL 15, them's the breaks.
celestialkin 06-07-07, 05:34 AM	You DO have to. One word: balance. If you were to remove all the racial hit dice, the level adjustment would skyrocket. A mind flayer is ECL 15, them's the breaks. I think the guy is just asking so he can better understand the system. Basically Magicuser, it has to do with balancing the character/monster out like MushroomSpore said. From what I understand, even if you do take out 8 HD worth of HP the monster still has the special abilities and stats equal to a 15 level character or encounter (just not the HP).
runestar 06-07-07, 06:38 AM	Savage species does not fully incorporate the revised monsters' stats in the MM 3.5. I am not sure how relevant it still is in the 3.5 context...:(
bobothechimp 06-07-07, 07:51 AM	While it's not 3.5, it should be fine for any games that are not huge rules-lawyering games, or as a useful set of guidelines.
celestialkin 06-07-07, 12:48 PM	Savage species does not fully incorporate the revised monsters' stats in the MM 3.5. I am not sure how relevant it still is in the 3.5 context...:( While it's not 3.5, it should be fine for any games that are not huge rules-lawyering games, or as a useful set of guidelines. Introduction Savage Species, a comprehensive guide to monster characters, helps you use monsters as either player characters (PCs) or nonplayer characters (NPCs) to serve as interesting allies and opponents for the player characters in your campaign. You need the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual to use this book. The monster classes templates in Savage Species are designed to be compatible with the revised version of the Monster Manual (see the inside bar on this page for more information), but this book is still compatible with the original Monster Manual as well. Monsters as Characters Savage Species is all about treating monsters as characters. In keeping with the approach, this book features several changes to the rules concerning monsters. The changes summarized below are also reflected in the D&D game's revised core rulebooks, particularly the revised Monster Manual. This book was released just a few months before the revised 3.5 core books were released, so I'm guessing Wizards intended for it to compliment the new rules, or it would have been a waste, since it would have only been useful for about three months.
skio 06-07-07, 03:28 PM	Racial HD and LA are both balancing factors of a monster's power, albeit not equal in value. LA strips you from a whole class level and all its benefits (skill points, BAB, saves etc). HD strip you only from the class abilities and spells a class level may give you. So LA is more 'powerful' as a balancing factor, and, according to some, it is equal to 2 racial HD. So, to remove the 8 HD of the mind flayer, you'll have to raise the LA by 4, resulting to a +11 LA. This character would be ECL 12 with 1 class level and, although this may seem better than having a 8 HD+7 LA = 15 ECL character, you have to consider that your illithid, without the HD, will have no more than 15-20 hp (depending on the class) at level 12! That is why racial HD comes in. It is fairly possible to remove the racial HD in races with low LAs, but as the numbers become larger, things are getting tougher.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-07-07, 03:58 PM	> Savage Species is all about treating monsters as characters. Savage Species is somewhat dubious to go by because it's not fully 3.5E compatible and it was also declared outright by one of the authors to have been written with the intention of making monster characters mechanically undesirable to play. That said, it is true that racial hit dice are (in theory) supposed to be factored into the overall ECL of the creature. The problem is that this has been done rather inconsistently. To the OP: While you'd have to take the racial hit dice along with the LA, I'd suggest looking for something else. Anything with that high an LA and/or ECL inevitably works out rather poorly as a PC.