Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TygerTyger 04-12-07, 10:04 AM	Okay, just to make sure I am understanding how the monster characters work.... If you wanted to play a Minotaur Fighter, and the DM has said level 10 characters. You'd be a: Humanoid 6 (for the base Minotaur stats) Fighter 2 (for your class) The LA +2 makes this an ECL of 10.
DEMONisbest 04-12-07, 10:08 AM	Monstruous humanoid 6 (+6 BAB, +2 Fort, +5 Ref and Will saves), other than that...yes, it will be a an ECL 10 character this way.
obrysii 04-12-07, 10:21 AM	Okay, just to make sure I am understanding how the monster characters work.... If you wanted to play a Minotaur Fighter, and the DM has said level 10 characters. You'd be a: Humanoid 6 (for the base Minotaur stats) Fighter 2 (for your class) The LA +2 makes this an ECL of 10. Keep in mind that to find your ability modifier bonuses, subtract 10 or 11 from the minotaur's statistics (even and odd respectively) ... those are your bonuses. So a Minotaur's racial bonuses would include: +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma. The SRD actually has a breakdown of what you gain from those 6 Humanoid levels. "*Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5. *Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks."
TygerTyger 04-12-07, 11:05 AM	Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated. Its always satisfying to have someone confirm that you did actually get it right! Now if only I can figure out the lycanthropy template. :)
DEMONisbest 04-12-07, 01:17 PM	Keep in mind that to find your ability modifier bonuses, subtract 10 or 11 from the minotaur's statistics (even and odd respectively) ... those are your bonuses. Just to be sure...it always, with all monsters being converted to PCs, works like this, right?
jokey665 04-12-07, 01:28 PM	Not quite. There are a few monsters that don't use the "all 10s and 11s" for their stats, but those monsters usually have what stats they did start with listed in their entry.
InsanePsychoRabbit 04-12-07, 01:29 PM	As an official rule (as of at least Savage Species), yes, all monster-as-PC ability score modifiers are always even, except with the Cambion that Wizards just posted. (It is poorly written and should be ignored anyway.) Jokey665, you are referring to classed monsters (monsters with PC or NPC class levels), which use a different ability score array from nonclassed monsters (straight-out-of-the-MM minotaurs, beholders, ogres, etc.)
RobbyPants 04-12-07, 01:34 PM	Not quite. There are a few monsters that don't use the "all 10s and 11s" for their stats, but those monsters usually have what stats they did start with listed in their entry. Exactly. The only time this is done (so far as I know) is if the monster entry has a level 1 warrior as opposed to a monster with no class levels. The scores then are 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 (which averages out the same, but is a little more "optimized" to be good at one role). Any monster with a level of warrior usually has a detailed breakdown at the end of it's entry to tell how to turn them into characters.
simian 07-28-07, 06:48 PM	I am having a difficult time deciphering the monster-as-PC formula. One of my players wants to play a drow rogue. The starting character class level for the party will be level one. As a drow (which according to the monsters as PCs segment of the DMG), does the player use the ability modifiers and skills listed in the MM or does the formula need to be applied to the character to help baseline her skills (i.e. not to be over powered when compared to the rest of the party)? I understand that her ECL will essentially mean she will not begin to level her class until she is essentially on par with the others (or rather will level more slowly at first) ... I am just not really understanding how to work out the ability and skill differences when the drow is a playable character. Thanks.
sigma999 07-28-07, 07:02 PM	A difficult time? Ah that's because many D&D designers don't want you to be "monstrous" since it's simply too "unbalancing", even though playing as exotic fantasy races is an essential portion of what D&D is. Any monster-as-PC options tacked atop core D&D rules are like painting a rock to look like a mammal; no matter how cute it may look, it won't cuddle and it's still a rock. No matter how much you might pretend that rock is a bunny or a kitten, IT'S NOT! Monster races are like that. We try to convert them to PC-playable, but it just... doesn't... turn out... right.
Mojo_Rat 07-28-07, 07:11 PM	In my exiperience, when a race has a npc class (like the aformentioned warrior) they almost always tell you the statistics block used by the creature) and the actual stats are often listed under the 'as a player character' section. I know the Kobold entry for example lists out the statistic aray used, for example. Although I guess sometimes they are sloppy and do not always include it?
Morwen 07-28-07, 08:12 PM	I am having a difficult time deciphering the monster-as-PC formula. One of my players wants to play a drow rogue. The starting character class level for the party will be level one. A drow should not be played in a 1st-level party. A 3rd-level party is required, since it has an LA of +2, and will thus be equivalent to a 3rd-level character already at its 1st class level.
simian 07-28-07, 08:15 PM	Ok, so after a bit of tinkering I think we have the ability score thing figured out. Also, as a first level rogue, feat is selected normally and skills are class base + Int modifier X 4. So that's pretty straight forward. However, what about the rest of the racial attributes of the drow based on the MM entry? Should all of those apply to the PC as well aside from the base racial ability modifiers shown (as those were superseded based on the monsters-as-PCs formula)?
simian 07-28-07, 08:22 PM	A drow should not be played in a 1st-level party. A 3rd-level party is required, since it has an LA of +2, and will thus be equivalent to a 3rd-level character already at its 1st class level. I understand where you're coming from regarding the ECL of the drow character, however that adjustment is in place to pace the level advancement of the character, is it not? So with adjusted ability scores / modifiers, selected feats and skills the only other part I would have issue with are the remaining racial attributes as noted in my last post on the thread. After digging a little deeper, the summary LA described here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) has helped me to understand what you mean regarding the difference in character level and racial level, thus a starting character as drow should not be able/allowed to take a level in rogue as that begins the character as a dual class. One thing I am not clear on though is whether or not the ability modifiers shown is in addition to the adjusted ability modifiers determined using the monsters-as-PCs formula??
Mysteria 07-29-07, 11:32 AM	Let's see. A normal elf would be this: Elf Traits (Ex): Elves possess the following racial traits. +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. Medium size. An elf ’s base land speed is 30 feet. Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. (Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.) Low-light vision. Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow. +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan. Favored Class: Wizard. A drow would be: Drow Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. Darkvision out to 120 feet. Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels. +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities. Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the drow’s class levels. Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). Level adjustment +2. Putting the two together in one block, a drow character would be created just like any other character, but his race (drow) would give him: Drow Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, , +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. Darkvision out to 120 feet. Medium size. A drow’s base land speed is 30 feet. Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels. +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities. Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the drow’s class levels. Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword. This trait replaces the high elf’s weapon proficiency. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. This trait replaces the high elf ’s automatic and bonus languages. Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). This trait replaces the high elf ’s favored class. +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. Level adjustment +2. So, you would built a 1st level character just as usual, but instead of applying the racial traits of an elf, you apply those of a drow to that character. These racial traits are however stronger in game than what the normal races get, so the drow 1st level character has a level adjustement of +2. Which means that he actually counts as a third level character in regards to xp needed to level, xp gained and gear value he should have. So, if you want to have a drow in a party, they really should all be third level characters so that the drow isn't much better than the others. Also, you can't just be a drow without a class level because, as you see above, being a drow doesn't give you any hitpoints. So, if you were a drow without class levels, you'd have exactly 0 hitpoints. Now, does this begin to help you?
Balthanon 07-29-07, 11:40 AM	Try this as well if you want to start your players at first level and one wants to be a drow: Level Adjustment Savage Progressions. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) That is designed to facilitate playing monsters from a low level.
simian 08-02-07, 09:25 AM	Try this as well if you want to start your players at first level and one wants to be a drow: Level Adjustment Savage Progressions. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) That is designed to facilitate playing monsters from a low level. According to Mysteria (and others) above, the formula from that page would have the LA drow PC at effective character level 3. I have taken this advice into account seriously as we don't want an unbalanced party.
Balthanon 08-02-07, 12:02 PM	According to Mysteria (and others) above, the formula from that page would have the LA drow PC at effective character level 3. I have taken this advice into account seriously as we don't want an unbalanced party. Starting the party at a higher level is the easiest method of accounting for level adjustment and if you're willing to do that I would recommend it as well. The savage progression template that I linked to basically just breaks down the abilities that give the drow their LA and spreads it out across three levels. (Basically, you have your character class at first level, plus abilities that are on par with a LA +0 race, then at level 2 and 3 you would take a level of drow instead of a character class, gaining those abilities.
TheCarrionCrawler 08-02-07, 01:31 PM	A drow should not be played in a 1st-level party. A 3rd-level party is required, since it has an LA of +2, and will thus be equivalent to a 3rd-level character already at its 1st class level. PGtF have Lesser Drow playable at level 1. Also, look into LA buyback.
simian 08-03-07, 01:04 PM	PGtF have Lesser Drow playable at level 1. Also, look into LA buyback. Can you elaborate more on this? I may sound newbish, but I am not following your post.
Reyemile 08-03-07, 02:01 PM	PGtF is Player's Guide to Faerun. It is a setting specific book, and since it has Lesser Aasimar and Tieflings, widely considered to be highly overpowered, I'm not sure how useful a source it is. Level Adjustment Buyoff is an optional ruleset from Unearthed Arcana, also available on the web athe the d20 Hypertext website. It lets you pay experience at later levels to reduce your level adjustment, on the grounds that at really high levels, +2 to a stat doesn't make all that much difference any more.