Post/Author/DateTime	Post
snakebliskan 04-08-07, 12:08 PM	Is there any monstrous humanoid PC races? If so which ones work well?
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-08-07, 01:19 PM	The Expanded Psionics Handbook has dromites and thri-kreen. The Monster Manual has a listed Level Adjustment listed for nearly every monstrous humanoid. Now, "works well" is subjective. Can you be more specific?
Armoracia Rusticana 04-08-07, 03:17 PM	Goliath, I'd say. They work quite well, in melee builds. With 1-st level barbarian substitution level they are golden.
AZNsupermarket 04-08-07, 04:27 PM	There are nine monstrous humanoid races with Level Adjustment +0. Seven of them aren't 3.5 and found in savage species: Anthropomorphic Animals Anthropomorphic Bat: -4 Str +6 Wis -2 Cha, small, 5 ft. (fly 20 ft. average), blindsense (ex), druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Lizard: -4 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 20 ft., druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Monkey: -4 Str +2 Dex +4Wis -2 Cha, small, 30 ft., druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Rat: -4 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 15 ft., rogue, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Raven: -6 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 10 ft. (fly 30ft. poor), rogue, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Toad: -4 Str -2 Dex +6 Wis -2 Cha, small, 5 ft., cleric, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Weasel: -4 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 20 ft., attach (ex), druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Two of them are found in Dragon Compendium Volume 1, a book that is officially licensed by Wizards of the Coast. Note that this book was licensed by Wizards of the Coast, not Published by them. It is up to your DM whether or not to allow them: Lupin: none, medium, 30 ft., ranger, monstrous humanoid (lupin), dragon compendium volume one pg.21 Tibbit: +2 Dex -2 Str, small, 20 ft., Feline Transformation (su), rogue, monstrous humanoid (lupin), dragon compendium volume one pg.25
Neutronium_Dragon 04-08-07, 06:48 PM	While they're LA +0, the anthropomorphic animals do have racial hit dice, which are generally just as bad if you're trying to keep class levels even.
AZNsupermarket 04-08-07, 08:37 PM	While they're LA +0, the anthropomorphic animals do have racial hit dice, which are generally just as bad if you're trying to keep class levels even. Actually, the single racial hit die disappears as soon as you gain any class levels.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-10-07, 08:01 PM	No. Only Humanoids have that, and then only the 1HD ones. In their case it's because that 1 HD isn't an actual racial hit die but a class level in Warrior. Monstrous Humanoids and every other creature type deal in actual racial hit dice, which don't get swapped out.
malykoth 04-10-07, 08:11 PM	There are nine monstrous humanoid races with Level Adjustment +0. Anthropomorphic Animals Anthropomorphic Bat: -4 Str +6 Wis -2 Cha, small, 5 ft. (fly 20 ft. average), blindsense (ex), druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Lizard: -4 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 20 ft., druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Monkey: -4 Str +2 Dex +4Wis -2 Cha, small, 30 ft., druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Rat: -4 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 15 ft., rogue, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Raven: -6 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 10 ft. (fly 30ft. poor), rogue, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Toad: -4 Str -2 Dex +6 Wis -2 Cha, small, 5 ft., cleric, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 Anthropomorphic Weasel: -4 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 20 ft., attach (ex), druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215 These would never be +0 LA's in my game. I mean, each of them has at least a +4 to Wisdom...some a +6! WTF?...and the bat? +6 Wisdom bonus, flight, and blindsense? At +0 LA? :rolleyes: I don't care if it is official, that's crazy. At least that's my :twocents:
AZNsupermarket 04-10-07, 08:13 PM	These would never be +0 LA's in my game. I mean, each of them has at least a +4 to Wisdom...some a +6! WTF?...and the bat? +6 Wisdom bonus, flight, and blindsense? At +0 LA? :rolleyes: I don't care if it is official, that's crazy. At least that's my :twocents: Agreed
Neutronium_Dragon 04-10-07, 08:57 PM	It has no LA, but the bat's racial hit die does give it ECL +1, and Monstrous Humanoid hit dice aren't all that great (they're nowhere near as good as a PC class level). This also takes a bite out of caster level progression, which takes a bit of the shine off of the Wis boost. There are a couple of other detriments going its way - most seriously the absolutely ghastly land speed (5'), and even its flight speed (20') is no better than the land speed of other small races - except that unlike a gnome or halfling, the bat has only average maneuverability and can't even use that speed when encumbered or significantly armored. Between its small size and -4 Str, encumbered happens very easily even with the weight reduction for being small, leaving them tottering along at a snail's pace on the ground. And with small size, a -4 Str penalty and no Dex bonus, their melee skills are going to stink. On balance I'd consider the anthro bat if it fit some theme, but I'd probably rather have a human in most cases, which tells me that the ECL +1 is actually appropriate.
malykoth 04-10-07, 10:11 PM	It has no LA, but the bat's racial hit die does give it ECL +1, and Monstrous Humanoid hit dice aren't all that great (they're nowhere near as good as a PC class level). This also takes a bite out of caster level progression, which takes a bit of the shine off of the Wis boost. There are a couple of other detriments going its way - most seriously the absolutely ghastly land speed (5'), and even its flight speed (20') is no better than the land speed of other small races - except that unlike a gnome or halfling, the bat has only average maneuverability and can't even use that speed when encumbered or significantly armored. Between its small size and -4 Str, encumbered happens very easily even with the weight reduction for being small, leaving them tottering along at a snail's pace on the ground. And with small size, a -4 Str penalty and no Dex bonus, their melee skills are going to stink. On balance I'd consider the anthro bat if it fit some theme, but I'd probably rather have a human in most cases, which tells me that the ECL +1 is actually appropriate. With all due respect, you have not changed my opinion one bit. To a dedicated min/maxer, there is no such thing as a serious drawback. They'll simply design a character that either relies on the penalized attribute very little, or not at all. I've seen it done, and (I admit) I've done it myself. Even with 1 racial hd, a DM would be unwise to let me have this. I'm not saying I'd break the game, but my superiority to the other (presumably standard) characters would be painfully obvious, and quite unfair. I'm just saying as a DM I wouldn't allow it.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-10-07, 10:26 PM	To a dedicated min-maxer, the anthro bat poses a problem, though. They have +6 Wis. Okay, a great divine caster. Except they've got a racial hit die so their caster level is set back - which min-maxers are going to lay an egg over. On top of that, they're stuck with an impossibly low movement rate or else forced to forego the heavier armor which is the trademark (and crucial to) the divine spellcasting classes. The spirit shaman might be more viable, but then the -2 Charisma comes back to bite them on the rear, and even for the straight cleric it's an annoyance for the way that it hinders Turning (and all of the possibilities that flow from that). So now they've got an awful AC from equipment, and while they have a size bonus to it, they don't have the +2 Dex which is typical of smaller guys, so they're rather easy to hit. They can't hit worth beans in return unless they take Finesse, but that's not available until 3rd level and even then the lack of Dex bonus makes this a catch-up-only feat rather than a get-ahead one. Plus, Finesse isn't usually all that wonderful for a spellcaster anyway. They're also unable to carry much of anything without slowing to a crawl which would make even an overburdened halfling seem like greased lightning by comparison. Yes, there are ways to compensate for that - but the resources put towards compensating for those problems could be used by the human towards gaining similar advantages to what the bat has. Druid looks better because wildshape will allow you to overcome some of those problems, but not only is spellcasting set back, so is wildshape, making the ECL +1 a double hit. Plus, by the time you get to wildshape as a class feature, characters (including wildshaping normal druids) have access to things like blindsense and flight fairly easily anyway, so your racial abilities aren't really anything special anymore. The +6 Wisdom is the primary benefit. Sure, it means nice save DCs and some more bonus spells - but the loss of a caster level still hurts rather badly and having to work your way around all of the other problems is going to burn enough resources that the human could catch his Wisdom up, or have other similarly advantageous things available to him. Or you can endure those other problems and take a major loss to your effectiveness and survivability in several areas for that +6 Wis - which is possible, but in real gameplay situations (as opposed to theoretical best-case ones) is going to come back to haunt you more than you'd like. As a player I'd consider it for theme reasons. As a DM I'd allow it because I see it as something of a poisoned pill.
Lafing Cat 04-10-07, 10:45 PM	Monstrous Humanoids and every other creature type deal in actual racial hit dice, which don't get swapped out. The DMG would beg to differ with you. From the Pixie monster entry Pixies As Characters A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level. All creatures with only 1 HD exchange their first HD for a class level.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-10-07, 10:51 PM	In which case the pixie is a special exception. Take a look around at other creatures in the MM and you'll have a hard time finding similar statements on the 1 HD creatures - *except* for the 1 HD humanoids, which have been expressly stated as being statted up as 1st level warriors by default, not with actual racial hit dice. That's why they're swapped out - you're taking a level of something other than warrior.
unusualsuspect 04-10-07, 10:52 PM	To back up Lafing Cat's post... SRD, Monsters as Races: Humanoids and Class Levels Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class. Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four. The title inclines us to believe that the replacement only involves humanoids, but the text indicates no such thing, and examples - Goliaths, Pixies, etc - support the text, not the title. That said, most of the anthropomorphic creatures aren't balanced. Especially that anthropomorchic bat...
Tevin Kevlak 04-10-07, 10:54 PM	There are a number of ways to overcome the 5 foot movement actually. The feat Dash comes to mind, which effectively doubles it's land speed not to mention boots of striding and springing, only 5,500 gp. Peanuts to a high level character. These two combined give you a land speed of 20 feet. Or, since their flight speed is average anyway make your first feat improved flight and you can now simply hover in place and thus have no need for walking at all. That big setback isn't a set back anymore. If you don't want to blow a feat opt for just the boots. I would GLADLY spend 5,500 gp, and have the movement rate of a halfling in full plate for a +6 bonus to wisdom any day especially when it's a racial bonus and thus will stack with a Periapt of Wisdom... the human cannot claim this. Show me any other ECL +1 race with a +6 bonus to wisdom and I'll play that too. It's not even as big of a drawback as an LA +1 since you're still getting HP, save progression, skills and feat progression. No way would I allow this race as a no LA 1 racial hit die race in any game I dmed.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-10-07, 11:05 PM	> Peanuts to a high level character. Which is the problem with your solutions. By the time you're high level (a 5,500 GP item shouldn't be showing up until 8th-9th level or thereabouts), the anthro bat's racial bonuses aren't all that significant anymore. (Even if you had an LA added from them, buy-back would have allowed you to knock it down to LA +0 and catch up to everyone else by that point.) And that 5,500 you spent on the boots (and are still clopping along at a sluggish rate despite them) could've been spent by the human on something more directly useful. If you've spent a feat on the same, the human is now up two feats on you for adding something useful rather than compensating for weaknesses (since he has a bonus one to start). And for most divine casters there are a lot of feats that do far more tasty things than adding +5 speed in light armor. The human doesn't face any of the other problems either (terrible attack bonus, lack of carrying capacity, etc).
Tevin Kevlak 04-10-07, 11:27 PM	Ok, so what you're basically saying is you wouldn't spend 2 feats for a fly speed of 20 (good) and a +6 to wisdom? 1 feat is not worth 20 foot fly speed (good) and one feat is not worth +6 to wisdom. And you can afford the boots at 5th level, but if you can't spend more than half your wealth on them you can instead get them at level 6. A 6th level character has a wealth of 13,000 gp. This means you can buy the boots (or just take improved flight which is by no means a 'wasted feat' for a flying character) and still afford a Periapt of Wisdom +2. So you now have a net +8 to wisdom while the Human still can't afford a +4 periapt and has a net +2 to wisdom and 1 more caster level. An 18 in wisdom for both character plus stat points added for 4th level means: Anthro Bat wisdom 27 (+8) for a whopping DC 19 first level spells vs. Human wisdom 21 (+5) for a DC 16 first level spells. If both character are clerics their spells per day looks like this: Anthro Bat: 0=5, 1st=6+1, 2nd=5+1, 3rd=3+1 DC:+8 Human: 0=5, 1st=5+1, 2nd=4+1, 3rd=3+1 DC:+5 Clearly the Anthro Bat makes the better cleric in terms of spell casting. Their drawbacks are a poor melee attack bonus, and a poor land speed. The land speed ceases to be an issue with Improved Flight or Boots of Striding and springing. With improved flight the anthro bat will move as fast as the human in full plate (which you assume all clerics use) and with the boots he moves only 5 feet slower. With a fly speed it is a fairly safe assumption the Anthro Bat will attack from afar, making the best use of his flying ability, if he puts his secondary stat into dex, while the human puts his secondary stat into str, they will have very similar attack bonuses. If putting their second highest stat into dex doesn't appeal to them the feat Zen Archery lets them use that beefy wisdom score for ranged attacks and then they more than beat whatever the human's attack bonus is. If they still want to opt for melee combat and they still don't want to commit too much to dexterity the feat Intutitive Strike lets them use that beefy Wisdom score for melee attacks instead. My points is, there are ways to overcome these drawbacks that make you think the race is balanced and they aren't exceptionally difficult to do. Also, I don't understand why you think it's a bonus for the Human that the Anthro Bat uses his resources to overcome his drawbacks... that is the essense of min/maxing.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-11-07, 12:34 AM	I might spend two feats for that - but not if it also comes attached to terrible carrying capacity, lousy attack bonus, garbage AC, poor Charisma (which nerfs turning - not good if you want to use divine feats, which is where a lot of a cleric's power lies - and/or spellcasting) and all of the other problems which the bat faces. Yes, the bat can spend resources to compensate for his problems - but the human gets to spend those same resources to get ahead rather than to catch up. The end result is that, especially by the time that the solutions become readily accessible, the two end up in more or less a wash. Even by 6th level (and going by the MIC's suggestions, 8th-9th is more likely for the boots), flight and blindsense are no longer particularly unusual abilities. (The human druid could gain both at 5th, and spells allow for both by that point or sometimes even earlier. If you're a bat druid, congratulations on being Captain Redundant.)
Tevin Kevlak 04-11-07, 01:23 AM	I might spend two feats for that - but not if it also comes attached to terrible carrying capacity, lousy attack bonus, garbage AC, poor Charisma (which nerfs turning - not good if you want to use divine feats, which is where a lot of a cleric's power lies - and/or spellcasting) and all of the other problems which the bat faces. Yes, the bat can spend resources to compensate for his problems - but the human gets to spend those same resources to get ahead rather than to catch up. The end result is that, especially by the time that the solutions become readily accessible, the two end up in more or less a wash. Even by 6th level (and going by the MIC's suggestions, 8th-9th is more likely for the boots), flight and blindsense are no longer particularly unusual abilities. (The human druid could gain both at 5th, and spells allow for both by that point or sometimes even earlier. If you're a bat druid, congratulations on being Captain Redundant.) Their carrying capacity isn't necessarily "terrible" it all has to do with what stat you assign to strength. They have a lower carrying capacity to be sure but whether or not it is "terrible" differs between characters. They do not have a lousy attack bonus either, their small size grants them a +1 bonus on attack rolls and their level of monsterous humanoid gives them a B.A.B. of 1. An ECL6 Anthro Bat will have 1 less to hit with melee weapons than a human cleric6 and have 1 more to hit with ranged weapons than the human if they have the same stats assigned to strength and dex. 1 less is by no means lousy. As for "garbage A.C." I fail to see how that is so... do you mean that because the Anthro Bat has a low strength that they wont be able to wear heavier armors? As long as you manage what you're carrying there is nothing saying you cannot wear the same armor as the human, you only have to make sure you don't carry any excess items that will weigh you down... and in fact since Anthro Bats are small size they have 1 more A.C. than the huamn would. I also think you're exaggerating the penalty a -2 to charisma is going to have on the character. A charisma penalty does not destroy the viability of a race as a cleric. 1 less turn attempt for the day?! Wow, my character is ruined! As to these other problems you allude to, care to explain what those are? The human isn't "getting ahead" by any means, he's only spending his money on different things. Buying boots of striding and sprining give you a bonus to jump checks and a bonus on land speed, you're not just giving the money up for no gain. You're simply buying an item that makes your character better just as the human would be doing... I could say that the human cleric has to buy a +1 bow to "catch up" to the Anthro Bats bonus on ranged attacks but that would be nonsense. As for the flight and blindsense, they gain these abilities for free so any Druid spending a spell, wild shape use, or a feat to replicate these is apparently 'wasting resources to catch up' to what the Anthro Bat already has. Also, the spell Fly lasts for 1 minute per level, and the ability to fly via wild shape lasts for an hour per druid level. The Anthro Bat's fly speed lasts forever and is thus signifigantly better. Also, the Anthrobat still makes a very good Druid: you can fly all day long as opposed to a number of hours, you can wild shape into forms that give you a better land speed, and you STILL have a +6 bonus to wisdom. Being a race that can fly that gains an ability that can be potentionally used to fly does not make the character redundant any more than an Aquatic Elf Druid in an underwater campaign wildshaping into Shark... or a human Druid Wildshaping into an animal that has a 30 foot land speed. And at the end of the day, the Anthro Bat is still going to have 6 more wisdom than the human could possibly have at the cost of 1 caster level... this will not "even out later" or become a "wash" the Human couldn't hope to possibly have as much wisdom as the Anthro Bat, period. And it's quite clear where the Cleric (or any caster for that matter) gets their power, from their spells, and the Anthro Bat will cast more of them and they will be harder to resist than the human. Far more than an equal trade off in my mind.
bobothechimp 04-11-07, 02:32 AM	Savage Species specifically states that 1HD anthropomorphic animals replace their monstrous humanoid hit die with a class level, so you would not lose any caster levels.
AZNsupermarket 04-11-07, 07:14 AM	Savage Species specifically states that 1HD anthropomorphic animals replace their monstrous humanoid hit die with a class level, so you would not lose any caster levels. QFT
AZNsupermarket 04-11-07, 07:21 AM	double post, sorry
AZNsupermarket 04-11-07, 07:23 AM	Small Anthropomorphic animals lose their monster Hit Dice when they take class levels. Page 215 of Savage Species
YabaTheWhat 04-11-07, 08:13 AM	Savage Species was written by three separate authors. None of the authors conferred with each other, and most likely none expected to be published together. One provided the first reasonable (if oversimplified) LA calculation system. The others provide the prestige classes, anthro animals, and other tidbits in the later parts of the book. Anyone who examines the content with even moderate care can tell that none of the anthro animals abide by the balance rules supplied earlier in the same publication. They were written without using any balancing techniques, and are quite obviously imbalanced in just about every case. As per the rules of both versions 3.0 and 3.5, any creature with 1 racial hit die drops that hit die (and any benefits associated with that hit die) in favor of its first class level. This applies regardless of creature type, and in many cases, the 1hd creatures are listed in their respective books with class levels already applied.
Tevin Kevlak 04-11-07, 02:58 PM	Wow, that's even worse. I can't understand how they think that a +6 to any stat, let alone a casting stat, isn't worth an LA. I knew there was a reason I didn't like Savage Species.
malykoth 04-11-07, 04:17 PM	I knew there was a reason I didn't like Savage Species. I like the idea of Savage Species...I just think the execution was bad. As discussed, many of the LA's are off, some by quite a bit. Personally, I thought some were even too high for the race in question (though not anthropomorphic animals, obviously).
Tevin Kevlak 04-12-07, 12:52 PM	I agree completely. I like the idea of letting players choose what they'd like to play as long as they're playing it for the right reasons and a book that helps players do that would definately be worth while. Sadly, that book is not Savage Species.