Monstrous Humanoid [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monstrous Humanoid [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tdub415
05-17-07, 09:59 AM When creating a character that has monstrous humanoid levels, does that add additional ECL to the base level, or does that account for the level adjustment that the given race has?
runestar
05-17-07, 10:08 AM ECL = HD + LA.
Though it is possible for more racial HD to lower LA. :)
Tdub415
05-17-07, 10:11 AM Are you required to take, for example Thri-Kreen has 2 levels of monstrous humanoid, or can you opt to not have the extra 2d8 HP and other benefits from the monstrous humanoid levels?

*note* my DM doesn't have a problem with me doing this, but I am curious if it is possible 'by the book' to do this
steventirey1985
05-17-07, 10:25 AM By the book, no. You must take the racial HD.
Selgard
05-17-07, 10:27 AM By the book, no.

But even if your DM says you can- keep in mind that "monster levels" are additional penalties imposed by taking a monster as a race, and that by eliminating them you may need to adjust the +LA to compensate for it.
runestar
05-17-07, 10:31 AM To elaborate, it can be interpretated that a thri-keen has LA+2 partly because of its 2 racial HD. If you want to remove these HD, you may need to compensate, perhaps by raising the LA to +3, since they tend to be inferior to class lvs.:)
Tdub415
05-17-07, 10:49 AM Alright, thanks, one last question. Thri-Kreen have weapon familiarity with their 2 racial exotic weapons, making them martial weapons. Do the Monstrous Humanoid levels have proficiency with them, or does that all depend on what class I choose. Wilder only has simple weapon proficiency, so I need to know if I need to use a feat to wield them or not.
Selgard
05-17-07, 10:53 AM SRD quote from Monstrous Humanoid entry:

Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Monstrous humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Monstrous humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Monstrous humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe.
Tdub415
05-17-07, 10:57 AM Great! Thank you all for your input and help!
Thomar_of_Uointer
05-19-07, 06:36 PM Though it is possible for more racial HD to lower LA. :)
This is a house rule.

...or can you opt to not have the extra 2d8 HP and other benefits from the monstrous humanoid levels?
This is also a house rule.
runestar
05-19-07, 09:53 PM This is a house rule.
Not so much as a house rule as a noticeable trend.
Of course, by RAW, if you played a griffon, and willing took more racial HD, your LA would remain the same.

But there have been precedents, such as the various ethergaunts (notice how the more powerful versions get progressively lower LA), as well as the epic monsters in the ELH (the errata gave them ECL = HD, implying a LA of +0.:)
Antioch
05-21-07, 01:24 AM When creating monstrous classes, the trend for myself was that a monster with more HD generally had a lower LA at the end of the process (I start out by mapping out its total LA first, then overlapping HD onto this to get a rough idea of a final result).

This isnt always the case, especially for monsters with powerful special attacks and special qualities.
Thomar_of_Uointer
05-21-07, 11:24 PM When creating monstrous classes, the trend for myself was that a monster with more HD generally had a lower LA at the end of the process (I start out by mapping out its total LA first, then overlapping HD onto this to get a rough idea of a final result).

This isnt always the case, especially for monsters with powerful special attacks and special qualities.

Nah, I start with the Hit Dice to make them appropriately tough (monstrous races are meant to be monsters that fight the PCs, right?), and then throw on abilities that would be interesting to players (without impacting CR too much) and determine LA afterwards.
Antioch
05-22-07, 02:16 AM I'll use my gynosphinx as an example, which I made way back in 3.0 shortly after Savage Species was released.

They have 8 HD, which means that at the least, she will have 8 levels.
Going down the list of gynosphinx features, I ended up with a total of +15 LA from the natural armor, natural weapons, fly speed, spell-like abilities, symbol spells, and the hefty ability mods (+2 to two stats, +8 to the rest).
I felt this was fairly balanced, and after making a 15th level human fighter I saw that the gynosphinx, despite having almost half the HD, still had comparable attacks (which coupled with a pounce and a rake), was on par.
I took the 8 HD, and overlapped the LA, ended up with a 15-level monster class (8 HD, +7 LA).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tdub415 05-17-07, 09:59 AM	When creating a character that has monstrous humanoid levels, does that add additional ECL to the base level, or does that account for the level adjustment that the given race has?
runestar 05-17-07, 10:08 AM	ECL = HD + LA. Though it is possible for more racial HD to lower LA. :)
Tdub415 05-17-07, 10:11 AM	Are you required to take, for example Thri-Kreen has 2 levels of monstrous humanoid, or can you opt to not have the extra 2d8 HP and other benefits from the monstrous humanoid levels? note my DM doesn't have a problem with me doing this, but I am curious if it is possible 'by the book' to do this
steventirey1985 05-17-07, 10:25 AM	By the book, no. You must take the racial HD.
Selgard 05-17-07, 10:27 AM	By the book, no. But even if your DM says you can- keep in mind that "monster levels" are additional penalties imposed by taking a monster as a race, and that by eliminating them you may need to adjust the +LA to compensate for it.
runestar 05-17-07, 10:31 AM	To elaborate, it can be interpretated that a thri-keen has LA+2 partly because of its 2 racial HD. If you want to remove these HD, you may need to compensate, perhaps by raising the LA to +3, since they tend to be inferior to class lvs.:)
Tdub415 05-17-07, 10:49 AM	Alright, thanks, one last question. Thri-Kreen have weapon familiarity with their 2 racial exotic weapons, making them martial weapons. Do the Monstrous Humanoid levels have proficiency with them, or does that all depend on what class I choose. Wilder only has simple weapon proficiency, so I need to know if I need to use a feat to wield them or not.
Selgard 05-17-07, 10:53 AM	SRD quote from Monstrous Humanoid entry: Darkvision out to 60 feet. Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Monstrous humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Monstrous humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. Monstrous humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe.
Tdub415 05-17-07, 10:57 AM	Great! Thank you all for your input and help!
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-19-07, 06:36 PM	Though it is possible for more racial HD to lower LA. :) This is a house rule. ...or can you opt to not have the extra 2d8 HP and other benefits from the monstrous humanoid levels? This is also a house rule.
runestar 05-19-07, 09:53 PM	This is a house rule. Not so much as a house rule as a noticeable trend. Of course, by RAW, if you played a griffon, and willing took more racial HD, your LA would remain the same. But there have been precedents, such as the various ethergaunts (notice how the more powerful versions get progressively lower LA), as well as the epic monsters in the ELH (the errata gave them ECL = HD, implying a LA of +0.:)
Antioch 05-21-07, 01:24 AM	When creating monstrous classes, the trend for myself was that a monster with more HD generally had a lower LA at the end of the process (I start out by mapping out its total LA first, then overlapping HD onto this to get a rough idea of a final result). This isnt always the case, especially for monsters with powerful special attacks and special qualities.
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-21-07, 11:24 PM	When creating monstrous classes, the trend for myself was that a monster with more HD generally had a lower LA at the end of the process (I start out by mapping out its total LA first, then overlapping HD onto this to get a rough idea of a final result). This isnt always the case, especially for monsters with powerful special attacks and special qualities. Nah, I start with the Hit Dice to make them appropriately tough (monstrous races are meant to be monsters that fight the PCs, right?), and then throw on abilities that would be interesting to players (without impacting CR too much) and determine LA afterwards.
Antioch 05-22-07, 02:16 AM	I'll use my gynosphinx as an example, which I made way back in 3.0 shortly after Savage Species was released. They have 8 HD, which means that at the least, she will have 8 levels. Going down the list of gynosphinx features, I ended up with a total of +15 LA from the natural armor, natural weapons, fly speed, spell-like abilities, symbol spells, and the hefty ability mods (+2 to two stats, +8 to the rest). I felt this was fairly balanced, and after making a 15th level human fighter I saw that the gynosphinx, despite having almost half the HD, still had comparable attacks (which coupled with a pounce and a rake), was on par. I took the 8 HD, and overlapped the LA, ended up with a 15-level monster class (8 HD, +7 LA).