monstrous level adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

monstrous level adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Divisionbyzer0
03-01-08, 06:54 PM Alright I'm drawing up a gray orc cleric at 4th level. Those orcs get a level adjustment of 1, I guess because of their 40 base speed automatic weapon profs and bonus to wisdom.

How does this work exactly?

Do I take one level of "gray orc" and get monstrous hit dice and skill points as per savage species, or do I just have 3 hit dice, from 3 levels of cleric and an ECL of 4 for the purposes of determining level based stuff, like the ability boost at fourth, and feats?
Nathreet
03-01-08, 07:14 PM If the monster only has 1 HD then you replace it with your cleric levels. For a 4th level character that'd make you a grey orc cleric 3. LA determines your ECL for exp only. For the 4th level ability score bonus, spells that affect X HD of creatures, feats, etc., etc. you are still level 3 (and don't get the 4th level ability score bonus yet).

If it has 2 or more HD you keep the HD and the LA and add on the class levels. So if a grey orc got 2 HD you'd then be a grey orc 2 cleric 1. Your ECL for exp would be 4 but your level for everything else would be 3 (2 of your "levels" would be in grey orc; there isn't any multiclassing xp penalty for this btw).

In either case you'd expect to face any challenge that a 4th level character would face, join a party of ~4th level characters, etc.
calronmoonflower
03-01-08, 07:16 PM Write up a third level cleric with the equipment of a 4th level character.

The level adjustment is like a phantom level that grants nothing, but makes you level as if you had a higher class level.
Divisionbyzer0
03-01-08, 08:00 PM If the monster only has 1 HD then you replace it with your cleric levels. For a 4th level character that'd make you a grey orc cleric 3. LA determines your ECL for exp only. For the 4th level ability score bonus, spells that affect X HD of creatures, feats, etc., etc. you are still level 3 (and don't get the 4th level ability score bonus yet).

If it has 2 or more HD you keep the HD and the LA and add on the class levels. So if a grey orc got 2 HD you'd then be a grey orc 2 cleric 1. Your ECL for exp would be 4 but your level for everything else would be 3 (2 of your "levels" would be in grey orc; there isn't any multiclassing xp penalty for this btw).

In either case you'd expect to face any challenge that a 4th level character would face, join a party of ~4th level characters, etc.
Ok. so the ability bonus would come when I had the exp of a 5th level character. The segment on the grey orc says nothing about their hit dice so I presume it comes all from their class.
BugHunter
03-01-08, 09:27 PM Ok. so the ability bonus would come when I had the exp of a 5th level character. The segment on the grey orc says nothing about their hit dice so I presume it comes all from their class.

That is correct, since grey orcs don't get any racial hit dice the ability bonus would come with the fourth hit die gained from any classes taken.

The ability bonus for races that have racial hit dice is gained when the racial hit dice plus class hit dice equal four.
AtsuiShoto
03-01-08, 10:19 PM I already knew all of this, but it's nice to see it all laid out so neatly. You guys are ridiculously efficient at being helpful :P
Divisionbyzer0
03-16-08, 02:07 PM Though I'm fairly confident you fellas are right, can I get a source that shows things like ability boosts and feats come from Hit Die and not ECL?

Thanks.
Soulless_Enigma
03-16-08, 03:23 PM The book in which grey orcs appear, Races of Faerun has a detailed explanation of this with tables and everything in the Introduction.
Jaxgaret
03-16-08, 05:50 PM I'm taking a look at the Gray Orc entry right now; these guys are woefully underpowered for LA +1.

The best way to illustrate this that I can think of is to compare them to the Whisper Gnome - both get +2/-2 to two stats, and both get a movement bonus. The Whisper Gnome also gets a long list of racial benefits; the Gray Orc gets a couple of weapon proficiencies and Light Sensitivity, hardly any benefit at all. And the Whisper Gnome is LA +0. It is at the very top end of LA +0, true, but LA is such a hindrance that you have to give a race something good for it.

I would either make Gray Orcs LA +0 in my campaigns, or give them +4 Str to at least give them a net positive to stats for an LA +1 race.

Also, the flavor text states that "a gray orc doesn't hesitate to attack even if he has been brutally defeated dozens of times before by the same enemy." Does that sound like a race with a Wisdom bonus to you? :)

This seems like one of the most poorly designed races I've ever seen. FR ftw.
Divisionbyzer0
03-16-08, 08:03 PM I'm taking a look at the Gray Orc entry right now; these guys are woefully underpowered for LA +1.

The best way to illustrate this that I can think of is to compare them to the Whisper Gnome - both get +2/-2 to two stats, and both get a movement bonus. The Whisper Gnome also gets a long list of racial benefits; the Gray Orc gets a couple of weapon proficiencies and Light Sensitivity, hardly any benefit at all. And the Whisper Gnome is LA +0. It is at the very top end of LA +0, true, but LA is such a hindrance that you have to give a race something good for it.

I would either make Gray Orcs LA +0 in my campaigns, or give them +4 Str to at least give them a net positive to stats for an LA +1 race.

Also, the flavor text states that "a gray orc doesn't hesitate to attack even if he has been brutally defeated dozens of times before by the same enemy." Does that sound like a race with a Wisdom bonus to you? :)

This seems like one of the most poorly designed races I've ever seen. FR ftw.
It does sound like a race with an intelligence penalty actually ;)

I have to show that to my DM. Maybe he will remove the level adjustment. I didn't think it was warranted either. They don't even have darkvision.

What book is this gnome in?
Jaxgaret
03-16-08, 11:46 PM I have to show that to my DM. Maybe he will remove the level adjustment. I didn't think it was warranted either. They don't even have darkvision.

What book is this gnome in?

Races of Stone, page 94.
AtsuiShoto
03-17-08, 06:04 AM I'm of the opinion that whisper gnomes are so far above the normal +0 LA power level that just dropping their Charisma penalty would be enough to make them +1 LA. Grey orcs are then the other way around: drop their Wisdom bonus, and then I would call them +0 LA.
Divisionbyzer0
03-18-08, 11:24 AM Of course the wisdom bonus is what makes them nice :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Divisionbyzer0 03-01-08, 06:54 PM	Alright I'm drawing up a gray orc cleric at 4th level. Those orcs get a level adjustment of 1, I guess because of their 40 base speed automatic weapon profs and bonus to wisdom. How does this work exactly? Do I take one level of "gray orc" and get monstrous hit dice and skill points as per savage species, or do I just have 3 hit dice, from 3 levels of cleric and an ECL of 4 for the purposes of determining level based stuff, like the ability boost at fourth, and feats?
Nathreet 03-01-08, 07:14 PM	If the monster only has 1 HD then you replace it with your cleric levels. For a 4th level character that'd make you a grey orc cleric 3. LA determines your ECL for exp only. For the 4th level ability score bonus, spells that affect X HD of creatures, feats, etc., etc. you are still level 3 (and don't get the 4th level ability score bonus yet). If it has 2 or more HD you keep the HD and the LA and add on the class levels. So if a grey orc got 2 HD you'd then be a grey orc 2 cleric 1. Your ECL for exp would be 4 but your level for everything else would be 3 (2 of your "levels" would be in grey orc; there isn't any multiclassing xp penalty for this btw). In either case you'd expect to face any challenge that a 4th level character would face, join a party of ~4th level characters, etc.
calronmoonflower 03-01-08, 07:16 PM	Write up a third level cleric with the equipment of a 4th level character. The level adjustment is like a phantom level that grants nothing, but makes you level as if you had a higher class level.
Divisionbyzer0 03-01-08, 08:00 PM	If the monster only has 1 HD then you replace it with your cleric levels. For a 4th level character that'd make you a grey orc cleric 3. LA determines your ECL for exp only. For the 4th level ability score bonus, spells that affect X HD of creatures, feats, etc., etc. you are still level 3 (and don't get the 4th level ability score bonus yet). If it has 2 or more HD you keep the HD and the LA and add on the class levels. So if a grey orc got 2 HD you'd then be a grey orc 2 cleric 1. Your ECL for exp would be 4 but your level for everything else would be 3 (2 of your "levels" would be in grey orc; there isn't any multiclassing xp penalty for this btw). In either case you'd expect to face any challenge that a 4th level character would face, join a party of ~4th level characters, etc. Ok. so the ability bonus would come when I had the exp of a 5th level character. The segment on the grey orc says nothing about their hit dice so I presume it comes all from their class.
BugHunter 03-01-08, 09:27 PM	Ok. so the ability bonus would come when I had the exp of a 5th level character. The segment on the grey orc says nothing about their hit dice so I presume it comes all from their class. That is correct, since grey orcs don't get any racial hit dice the ability bonus would come with the fourth hit die gained from any classes taken. The ability bonus for races that have racial hit dice is gained when the racial hit dice plus class hit dice equal four.
AtsuiShoto 03-01-08, 10:19 PM	I already knew all of this, but it's nice to see it all laid out so neatly. You guys are ridiculously efficient at being helpful :P
Divisionbyzer0 03-16-08, 02:07 PM	Though I'm fairly confident you fellas are right, can I get a source that shows things like ability boosts and feats come from Hit Die and not ECL? Thanks.
Soulless_Enigma 03-16-08, 03:23 PM	The book in which grey orcs appear, Races of Faerun has a detailed explanation of this with tables and everything in the Introduction.
Jaxgaret 03-16-08, 05:50 PM	I'm taking a look at the Gray Orc entry right now; these guys are woefully underpowered for LA +1. The best way to illustrate this that I can think of is to compare them to the Whisper Gnome - both get +2/-2 to two stats, and both get a movement bonus. The Whisper Gnome also gets a long list of racial benefits; the Gray Orc gets a couple of weapon proficiencies and Light Sensitivity, hardly any benefit at all. And the Whisper Gnome is LA +0. It is at the very top end of LA +0, true, but LA is such a hindrance that you have to give a race something good for it. I would either make Gray Orcs LA +0 in my campaigns, or give them +4 Str to at least give them a net positive to stats for an LA +1 race. Also, the flavor text states that "a gray orc doesn't hesitate to attack even if he has been brutally defeated dozens of times before by the same enemy." Does that sound like a race with a Wisdom bonus to you? :) This seems like one of the most poorly designed races I've ever seen. FR ftw.
Divisionbyzer0 03-16-08, 08:03 PM	I'm taking a look at the Gray Orc entry right now; these guys are woefully underpowered for LA +1. The best way to illustrate this that I can think of is to compare them to the Whisper Gnome - both get +2/-2 to two stats, and both get a movement bonus. The Whisper Gnome also gets a long list of racial benefits; the Gray Orc gets a couple of weapon proficiencies and Light Sensitivity, hardly any benefit at all. And the Whisper Gnome is LA +0. It is at the very top end of LA +0, true, but LA is such a hindrance that you have to give a race something good for it. I would either make Gray Orcs LA +0 in my campaigns, or give them +4 Str to at least give them a net positive to stats for an LA +1 race. Also, the flavor text states that "a gray orc doesn't hesitate to attack even if he has been brutally defeated dozens of times before by the same enemy." Does that sound like a race with a Wisdom bonus to you? :) This seems like one of the most poorly designed races I've ever seen. FR ftw. It does sound like a race with an intelligence penalty actually ;) I have to show that to my DM. Maybe he will remove the level adjustment. I didn't think it was warranted either. They don't even have darkvision. What book is this gnome in?
Jaxgaret 03-16-08, 11:46 PM	I have to show that to my DM. Maybe he will remove the level adjustment. I didn't think it was warranted either. They don't even have darkvision. What book is this gnome in? Races of Stone, page 94.
AtsuiShoto 03-17-08, 06:04 AM	I'm of the opinion that whisper gnomes are so far above the normal +0 LA power level that just dropping their Charisma penalty would be enough to make them +1 LA. Grey orcs are then the other way around: drop their Wisdom bonus, and then I would call them +0 LA.
Divisionbyzer0 03-18-08, 11:24 AM	Of course the wisdom bonus is what makes them nice :D