Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paulb104 01-08-08, 10:30 PM	The half-celestial has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (HD +3). The half-dragon has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). If I create a create that is both half celestial and half dragon, does it have skill points equal to (14 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3)? If not, why? Danka :)
ericSHINRA 01-08-08, 11:52 PM	You have no racial Hit-Dice as a Half-Dragon/Half-Celestial and as such, no racial levels by which you'd gain skill points.
andinel 01-08-08, 11:53 PM	No. When you apply the half-celestial template to a half-dragon, the base creature becomes an outsider (augmented dragon, augmented [base creature]). Outsiders get (8 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3) skill points, so that is what you would use.
ericSHINRA 01-09-08, 12:01 AM	No. When you apply the half-celestial template to a half-dragon, the base creature becomes an outsider (augmented dragon, augmented [base creature]). Outsiders get (8 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3) skill points, so that is what you would use. No, a Half-Dragon/Half-Celestial has no racial Hit-Dice and racial skill points do not affect those granted by class levels.
blade265 01-09-08, 12:12 AM	Yes you could join those templates together and I think that it would be 14 + int mod x HD + 6. So a human half- celestial, half-dragon would be 14 + int mod x 6 . It will have a +LA 7 From SRD or MM3,5 p291 Adding More Than One Template In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add.
ericSHINRA 01-09-08, 12:17 AM	Yes you could join those templates together and I think that it would be 14 + int mod x HD + 6. So a human half- celestial, half-dragon would be 14 + int mod x 6 . It will have a +LA 7 From SRD or MM3,5 p291 Adding More Than One Template In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add. Screw RAW. It's hardly logical. Now, while D&D is hardly meant to be realistic... consider this: Firstly, again, for the second time now. A Half-Celestial/Half-Dragon has NO RACIAL HIT DICE and thus, NO RACIAL SKILL POINTS. Also, you cannot have a Human Half-Dragon/Half-Celestial. I'm unaware that there are breedings which involve three parents.
paulb104 01-09-08, 12:24 AM	Yes you could join those templates together and I think that it would be 14 + int mod x HD + 6. So a human half- celestial, half-dragon would be 14 + int mod x 6 . It will have a +LA 7 Thanks! That's what I thought, but it's nice to hear it from someone else. :D
ericSHINRA 01-09-08, 12:33 AM	Thanks! That's what I thought, but it's nice to hear it from someone else. :D I hate to be a jackass here but you are again aware that you only gain racial skill points through racial Hit-Dice, yes? I'm only trying to help you here. Even if I do ruin any Min/Maxing or whatever you'd call it.
blade265 01-09-08, 12:40 AM	Screw RAW. It's hardly logical. Now, while D&D is hardly meant to be realistic... consider this: Whoever said that D&D was logical Firstly, again, for the second time now. A Half-Celestial/Half-Dragon has NO RACIAL HIT DICE and thus, NO RACIAL SKILL POINTS. Yes they have no racial hit die but the template still gives you skill points check the template description. Also, you cannot have a Human Half-Dragon/Half-Celestial. I'm unaware that there are breedings which involve three parents. Yes my bad Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support. Templates have to be added to a base race. A template is not a base race, therefore you could not apply the Half-Dragon template and the Half-Celestial template to only each other and end up with a working creature. Also, you cannot add both the Half-Dragon template and the Half-Celestial templates to a human. The human has only 2 parents. A Human, and either a dragon or a celestial. The human can't be half of three different things. A half-elf on the other hand, is a race, not a template. Therefore you could have a Half-dragon whose parents are a dragon and a half-elf. You would apply the Half-Dragon template to the half-elf race.
ericSHINRA 01-09-08, 12:46 AM	Skills: A half-celestial gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) x (HD +3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation - the half-celestial gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class. Same with the Half-Dragon. Skills: A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation - the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class. EDIT: Ok, ok. I guess the first line indicates that you should get the skill points but still, the class-skills/cross-class skills are never mentioned. Are they not derived from the racial hit-dice of the base creature?
Silversheen197 01-09-08, 01:27 AM	Alright, what ericSHINRA is trying to say is that a half-dragon/half-celestial human has no racial HD (meaning the only times such a human rolls for hp are when he/she gains a class level), and therefore you use the skill points per level listed for the class (so a half-dragon/half-celestial human wizard would still only get 2 + Int skill points per level, plus his/her human bonus skill points). If you were to combine the two templates onto a creature that does have racial Hit Dice (such as an ogre), the end skill points per level would be only (8+Int)+(HD+3). This is because, when you apply the half-dragon template, your type changes to dragon. Dragons get 6+Int skill points per racial Hit Die. The half-celestial template, however, changes your type again, this time to Outsider. Outsiders get 8+Int skill points per racial Hit Die. You don't add the two together, you take whichever one matches your current type. Our ogre's type changes from Giant to Dragon and ends as Outsider, so he gets Outsider skill points for his racial Hit Dice ((8+Int)+(HD+3)). Oh, and blade265, you can apply both templates to a single creature, and the 'half's become 'quarter's. So such a creature would be a quarter-dragon/quarter celestial whatever.
i_will_eat_monkeys 01-09-08, 01:54 AM	why would you want to be half-celestial/half-dragon the LA would be very high and as i am DM (but a noob DM lol) i wouldn't let you play it but that is my personal opinion
paulb104 01-09-08, 02:51 AM	I hate to be a jackass here but you are again aware that you only gain racial skill points through racial Hit-Dice, yes? I'm only trying to help you here. Even if I do ruin any Min/Maxing or whatever you'd call it. The DMG states: Adding More Than One Template In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add. I did not think I needed to spell out that I would be adding two templates to a creature. I foolishly assumed that whomever read my post would understand that. If I wanted a half-celestial, half-dragon blink dog, or a half-celestial, half-dragon human, my original question remained the same. A human would initially have one hd, whereas the blink dog would have four hd. These would the hit die in question when calculating the skills of the not-yet-to-be-determined foe for my groups adventures. My choices of half-celestial and half-dragon were completely random. Of course, a half-fiend, half-dragon troll hunter would be one big honkin' bad evil foe!!!
paulb104 01-09-08, 02:52 AM	why would you want to be half-celestial/half-dragon the LA would be very high and as i am DM (but a noob DM lol) i wouldn't let you play it but that is my personal opinion You falsely assumed that I'm a player looking for an uber pc.
i_will_eat_monkeys 01-09-08, 04:12 AM	yes i did but still why would you want a half-celestial/half-dragon lol
zook1shoe666 01-09-08, 10:49 AM	by RAW, you get skill points from the type you are, which may be changed from the template you have just applied. 99% of the +0 LA races, as characters, have NO racial HD. they use the class' skill points.
M-bark 01-09-08, 11:46 AM	99% of the +0 LA races, as characters, have NO racial HD. they use the class' skill points. If you'd apply that to non +0 LA races, you could get a Half-Dragon Half-Celestial, but they would have to have class levels so their Skill Points might depend on class levels rather than race or both.
zook1shoe666 01-09-08, 12:06 PM	most PC races have a level adj and 1 racial HD. to play these classes you lose the HD and run it with the LA only. this is what i'm talking about. th creature would be a Half-Dragon/Half-Celestial/Half-"original creature", thus turning into a Half-Dragon/Quarter-Celestial/Quarter-"original creature"
paulb104 01-09-08, 12:11 PM	Oh, and blade265, you can apply both templates to a single creature. In fact, the srd lists four Inherited Templates (ignoring psionics and epic): Celestial, Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, Lycanthrope, natural. The first three could easily be applied to a very many things. The Improving Monsters section has this: Some templates change how skill points are determined, but this change usually only affects skill points gained after the template is applied. Treat skills listed in the base creature’s description as class skills, as well as any new skills provided by the template. "this change usually only affects" is a useless sentiment, especially considering two of the four inherited templates DO change the skills. It's really important for me to understand this process as a whole. To that end.... Lets say I want to make an elf lycanthrope (camel) half-dragon half-celestial. Sure, it sounds silly, but it's the mechanics that's the key, not the end result. The elf is chaotic good, hd 1d8, has an Int 10 and gets four skill points. Class skills: Hide, Listen, Search, Spot. Lycanthrope is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant. The base creature’s type does not change, but gains the shapechanger subtype. Lets add this as an inherited template. A lycanthrope gains skill points equal to (2+Int mod) per HD of its animal form, as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. The camel hd is 3d8. Now we have a chaotic good elf, type humanoid & shapechanger, hd 4d8, Int 10, with 10 skill points. Half-Dragon is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature. The creature’s type changes to dragon. This raises Int by 2. Racial HD is increased by one die size. They gain skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6+Int mod)×(HD+3) skills. Now we have a chaotic good elf, type dragon, hd 4d10, Int 12, with 49 (6+1)×(4+3) skill points. Class skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device. Half-celestial is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or higher and nonevil alignment. The type changes to outsider. This raises Int by 2. Gets (8+Int mod)×(HD+3) skills. Now we have a chaotic good elf, type outsider, hd 3d10, Int 14, with 70 (8+2)×(4+3) skill points. Class skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device. Is that right? If so, does that mean that if half-dragon was added after half-celestial, the resulting creature would have less skills?
paulb104 01-09-08, 12:20 PM	an elf lycanthrope (camel) half-dragon half-celestial. Something occurred to me while I was reading. The creature in humanoid form is medium sized, while the animal and hybrid forms would be large size. The half-dragon template says that a large creature gets wings and can fly at twice its base land speed (maximum 120 ft.) with average maneuverability. A half-dragon that is Medium or smaller does not have wings. The half-celestial gets feathered wings and can fly at twice the base creature’s base land speed (good maneuverability). If the base creature has a fly speed, use that instead. So ignoring the lycanthrope part, the elf would have feathered wings and a fly 60 (good). Here's the thing... In any situation a half-dragon has wings, they're replaced by feathered wings since the half-celestial subsumes the half-dragon. Does the animal and hybrid forms get wings?
zook1shoe666 01-09-08, 01:19 PM	Does the animal and hybrid forms get wings? the hybrid form would. the animal form is just that, the form of an animal. Is that right? If so, does that mean that if half-dragon was added after half-celestial, the resulting creature would have less skills? yes to both
paulb104 01-09-08, 02:02 PM	the hybrid form would. the animal form is just that, the form of an animal. If you add half-dragon or half-celestial to a standard camel, then the beast would definitely have wings. As the shapeshifter type has been replaced with half-dragon, or half-celestial, then might not the werecamel animal form have wings?
zook1shoe666 01-09-08, 03:24 PM	If you add half-dragon or half-celestial to a standard camel, then the beast would definitely have wings. As the shapeshifter type has been replaced with half-dragon, or half-celestial, then might not the werecamel animal form have wings? but the were-camel version of a camel cannot be either, since Lycanthropy REQUIRES an animal
paulb104 01-09-08, 03:53 PM	"Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Becoming a lycanthrope is very much like multiclassing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice. An werecamel/elf is an elf who multiclassed with camel. "Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature. Therefore: but the were-camel version of a camel cannot be either, since Lycanthropy REQUIRES an animal Is wrong.
zook1shoe666 01-09-08, 05:44 PM	but the lycanthropy requires a carnivorous or omnivorous animal for the template. read in the section of the MM1 on page 175, titled "Size and Type"
Selgard 01-09-08, 06:21 PM	The type of animal you use isn't as important, in this example, as the math involved. If you replace were-camel with Were-creatureX that has 3HD- is his math correct? That is the issue: not whether or not a camel can be a were-critter. As to the dragon/outsider thing: there is a pyramid scheme that details what order you apply templates in. I do believe (but i could be wrong) that Outsider comes last. Thus, it should Always override the Dragon type. Or at least co-exist with it. (there are dragon outsiders, afterall).
zook1shoe666 01-09-08, 06:53 PM	The type of animal you use isn't as important, in this example, as the math involved. If you replace were-camel with Were-creatureX that has 3HD- is his math correct? That is the issue: not whether or not a camel can be a were-critter. As to the dragon/outsider thing: there is a pyramid scheme that details what order you apply templates in. I do believe (but i could be wrong) that Outsider comes last. Thus, it should Always override the Dragon type. Or at least co-exist with it. (there are dragon outsiders, afterall). yes the math was correct from any 3HD creature that is an outsider. the type pyramid is in the Savage Species, not sure if anywhere else also.